James, Way 1-3 was effectively banned by WMF today. Way 4 is still viable, but expecting the staff to start it up for you is a pipe dream.
- Charles On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 4:01 PM James Heilman <[email protected]> wrote: > I have laid out 4 strategies for including OWID in mediawiki here > > https://mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID > > We can of course do the third one immediately. Ie simply link in the > caption to the interactive graphs hosted by OWID itself. > > James > > On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 9:15 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> It doesn't matter what we think. It doesn't even matter if we >> collectively decide that we want to go on that direction. The WMF's Annual >> Plan and every single answer points that they don't mind. >> >> We were doing it wrong one year ago. Now is even worse. Catastrophic, but >> not serious. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* James Heilman <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 6, 2024 9:09 PM >> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are >> doing it wrong >> >> Yah, not sure what Bergsma (WMF) >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mark_Bergsma_(WMF)> is trying to >> say... No one is dismissing security or privacy. One; however, does need to >> balance risk versus benefit and of course mitigate security and >> privacy issues along the way. Allowing fear of security or privacy risks to >> paralyse us is also not ideal. >> >> Kimmo for sure we could internalize everything ie run their software on >> production servers, we already host their data on Commons (that was a >> many year effort). Made the request 8 or so years ago to host their >> software in fact, but the WMF dissolved the team / individual working on >> this effort. I still think that is a reasonable way forwards. >> >> James >> >> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 8:03 PM Kimmo Virtanen < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Just as a practical question in terms of what has been already done. As >> it seems that all proposals where extension will require external >> connections outside of Wikimedia production sites are no-go the feasible >> next step would be to modify the OurWorldInData extension so that it would >> load the graph data from Wikimedia commons. Is this already done even for a >> limited number of example graphs? If not then this could be the next step >> and then ask for a new security review on this approach. >> >> Though, even after it is solved that extension doesn't need external >> connections outside wikimedia production it still would require some level >> code review that OWID grapher doesn't do anything unexpected. >> >> Data itself in least some extend is in Commons >> - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Our_World_in_Data_datasets >> >> The OurWorldInData grapher >> - >> https://github.com/owid/owid-grapher/tree/master/packages/%40ourworldindata/grapher >> >> Application Security Review Request : OurWorldInData >> - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T324989 >> >> Br, >> -- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache >> >> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 6:46 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Has this discussion impacted somehow on the WMF's approach to the future. >> >> Well, today we had the answer: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget#c-Mark_Bergsma_(WMF)-20240606152100-Sj-20240428061700 >> >> (TL;DR: no) >> >> Galder >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Daniel Mui <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 9:40 PM >> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are >> doing it wrong >> >> I would agree that no mention in the OKR would be quite disturbing... >> However the 2024 report is NOT out yet, these are draft issues and I would >> not make judgement until the full report is ready, which i believe to be >> april. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Dear All, >> >> I understand the frustration around the lack of progress on interactive >> content and the discontinuation of the Graph extension. However, I'd like >> to point out a few things. >> >> First, the response from staff members reaching out to editors for their >> opinions was remarkably quick. This type of response is not common, and >> Wikipedia is unique in its hands-on approach to issues like this, it is >> something to be proud of and also something that takes time. >> >> Second, the Graph tool is being overhauled rather than patched. This is a >> significant undertaking that will bring all our tools into the modern age, >> making them more accessible and removing the underlying vulnerabilities >> that led to the current situation in the first place, it will also >> ensure the tool is up-to-date in terms of UX through things like codex and >> other modern improvements that long term will allow more users to create >> graphs which hopefully will keep it a priority to maintain, again thinking >> long term here. >> >> I know that this is taking time, but I believe that developing a robust >> and sustainable solution is the best approach. Doing it this way rather >> than delaying it for another six months is something I'd rather have and >> I'd like to thank the hard working wikimedia team for that. >> >> Thanks, >> Daniel >> >> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 8:03 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> Soon it will be a year since the Graph extension is disabled in all >> wikis. Meanwhile, we have been discussing about interactive content here >> and there, and there have been some promises about changes in the platform >> so these changes are possible in the future. >> >> Today the draft of the Key Results for the 2024-2025 annual plan was >> published and there's no single mention to this, nor to improving the >> multimedia experience. The disconnection between the needs and the plans is >> so evident, that I don't really know why we even bother discussing. You can >> see the Key Results here: >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs> >> . >> >> This is extremely disappointing. >> >> Best, >> Galder >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Samuel Klein <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Saturday, March 23, 2024 3:37 PM >> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are >> doing it wrong >> >> Beautiful. Thank you Felipe!! >> >> 🌍🌏🌎🌑 >> >> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 5:54 AM Felipe Schenone <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Hi Galder, I just did this fix >> <https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition&diff=prev&oldid=9637458> >> and >> your Vivarium seems to be working now. The documentation was ok, but a bit >> confusing, so I improved it too. Soon I'll send a patch to make those >> "special categories" unnecessary. In the meantime, they're a necessary >> annoyance, I'm afraid. Cheers! >> >> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 5:37 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Thanks Felipe, that's a really great move. I looked to these examples a >> couple o years ago, and this seems that a good option to add some >> interactive content. Anyway, I have tried to replicate it and can't make it >> work (https://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Txantiloi:Vivarium). Is the >> documentation right? >> >> Best >> >> Galder >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Felipe Schenone <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Friday, March 22, 2024 10:39 PM >> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are >> doing it wrong >> >> Hi everyone, good news! >> >> Thanks to this humble change >> <https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/Gadgets/+/1005092> >> (deployed >> today) it is now possible to load a specific gadget when a specific >> template is used in a page. This opens the door (or perhaps a window?) to >> interactive content using JavaScript. See for example this article in >> the Spanish Wikipedia <https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juego_de_la_vida> for >> an interactive instance of Conway's Game of Life, and scroll down for more >> instances! >> >> I started documenting the system at MediaWiki.org, under the title template >> gadgets <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template_gadgets>, and included >> many working examples. Check it out! >> >> Perhaps the system isn't as friendly or powerful a solution as some might >> hope. But it's very real, and it only depends on us now. Next week, when >> the documentation and examples are a bit more cooked, I'll propose adding a >> few "template gadgets" to the English Wikipedia, since my experience has >> taught me that when something hits the English Wikipedia, it quickly >> spreads elsewhere. I'll link to the proposal when I do, in case you want to >> participate. >> >> There's so much more that could be said about this, but I'd rather keep >> it short. If you have questions or ideas, feel free to write them here or >> at the relevant talk page >> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Template_gadgets>. >> >> Kind regards, >> Felipe (User:Sophivorus) >> >> On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 5:31 AM danboy12342 Mui <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I agree that Wikipedia needs to spend a few quarters spending time on our >> main product. The website is very impressively still the top result of a >> huge number of searches and in this new AI age; despite the controversy >> around it, wikipedia is the top source for many LLMs. Therefore while it >> doesn't need to be the only focus or even *the* focus most of the time >> it does need to be kept working but not just kept as is, it needs to be >> innovative and continue to meet the growing demands of a "modern" and >> "useable" site that allow users to get the information they need as fast >> and effectively as possible, these days that means interactivity. >> >> I feel I'm repeating others but a quick burst of very serious investment >> into the site and its many sister pages needs to happen sooner rather than >> later. >> Finally I'd like to thank Marshall again for his remarkable comments. >> It's good to see that this issue is clearly a priority that foundation >> staff are already looking at. >> >> - Daniel. >> >> --------------------- >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 09:17 Gnangarra <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> I just like to highlight one point, that raises concerns; >> >> >> perhaps enabling other platforms/apps to use our content to make >> interactive or video materials there. >> >> >> While this sounds like an easy solution we run into a number of hidden >> costs. These are significant when we push for reusers to present what we >> are doing in better ways we lose the movement's revenue stream as less >> people see our donation banners. With less direct traffic we also >> sacrifice the ability to convert readers into contributors which has always >> been our primary source of community sustainability and growth. I know >> other providers will find different ways to present our efforts in part or >> in whole that is part of our purpose, to do our mission and achieve our >> goals we need prioritise internal solutions. >> >> This also leads us to a related issue that our mission is to make the sum >> of all knowledge freely available. When we look to outside parties to share >> our efforts we lose our ability to ensure that the information is neutral, >> and that it's freely accessible. Butch is right in noting that when we put >> funding into third party sites it is taking resources away from the >> movement, yet those same funds were donated to us on the basis of >> maintaining and building our infrastructure. It would be a wise investment >> to enable some of those much needed interactive and video content here >> through purchasing rights. >> >> On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 at 12:20, Butch Bustria <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> My earnest hope that the Wikimedia Foundation on its 2024-2025 Annual >> Financial Plan prioritize and I mean put first among all is the technical >> infrastructure among all its budgetary items. We can scale down budgets to >> 3rd party organizations like the Knowledge Equity Fund, Movement Strategy >> Governance funding, campaign grants, and other "wants" to accomodate a >> highly technically reliable and stable Wikimedia online projects ("needs"), >> future proof, and user friendly experience which require investments on >> quality manpower, hardware, applications and the like. We love open source >> but we also be pragmatic and wise on selection of choices because we want >> our content be conveniently available and reliable to our readers, users, >> consumers and also editors. >> >> A welcome development is the MediaWiki Users and Developers Conference, >> the successor to EMWCon. >> >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Users_and_Developers_Conference_2024 >> >> The said conference will be held in Portland, Oregon, from April 17–19, >> 2024. >> >> I also hope the Foundation invest in more technical gatherings, both >> onsite, hybrid or online to engage and reach out to more technical >> contributors, within and beyond the Wikimedia movement. I also hope WMF to >> start exploring eastward to Asia or elsewhere in the world as well fully >> diversify the technical community. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> *Butch Bustria* >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 4:54 AM Brion Vibber <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Thanks for weighing in, Marshall! >> >> I agree wholeheartedly that we need to do a proper architecture for a >> sandbox for interactive media, that will be safe (first and foremost), >> perform well in the browser, work across device types (desktop web, mobile >> web, mobile apps), and maintain our key requirements on editability and >> reusability, balanced against the security and privacy needs of users if >> we're going to invest the effort. >> >> Backing up to do it right rather than patch up Graphs “one more time” is >> the right thing, and I’m very happy to see a confluence of interest around >> this now! >> >> My hope is we can figure out how to make that architecture & testing work >> happen in the near term until we collectively (inside WMF and out) can >> wrangle resources to make the implementation production-ready. >> >> Once we have a common infrastructure to build on, it’ll be easier for >> work to progress on individual types of media (graphs, charts, maps, >> animations, editable simulations, coding examples, etc, as well as classics >> like panorama viewers and integrating the audio/video player into a sandbox >> for heightened security). >> >> My biggest hope is that we’ll enable more work from outside WMF to happen >> – letting volunteers and other orgs who might have their own specialty >> areas and work funding to progress without every change being a potential >> new security risk. >> >> When we have succeeded in the past, we have succeeded by making tools >> that other people can use as their own basis to build their own works. I’m >> confident we can get there on interactive media with some common focus. >> >> Let's all try to capture some of this momentum while we've got it and set >> ourselves up for success down the road. >> >> – b >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 6, 2024, 12:27 PM <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi everyone – My name is Marshall Miller, I am a Senior Director of >> Product at the Wikimedia Foundation, and I work with many of the teams that >> are involved with the user experience of our websites and apps, such as the >> Editing, Web, Growth, and Mobile Apps teams (among others) [1]. I’m part of >> the leadership group that makes decisions about how the WMF teams approach >> things like graphs, interactive content, and video. Thank you all for >> having this in-depth and important discussion. >> >> I know that issues with graphs [2] are what started this discussion, but >> I agree that it makes sense to think about this in terms of the broader >> category of “interactive content”, because other kinds of interactive >> content, such as maps or timelines, would share architecture with what is >> needed for graphs (video is a different and more complicated content >> type). I wrote a lot in this email, but here are a couple of the main >> points up front: to support graphs and other interactive content, we would >> need to take a step back and make a substantial investment in sustainable >> architecture to do it – so that it works well, safely, and is built to >> last. And because that’s a substantial investment, we need to weigh it >> against other important investments in order to decide whether and when to >> do it. >> >> I know that it is very frustrating that the Graph extension has not been >> operational for many months – it means readers haven’t been seeing graphs >> in articles, and editors haven’t been able to use graphs to do things like >> monitor backlogs in WikiProjects. Over the months of trying to find a way >> to turn graphs back on, it has become clear that there isn’t a safe >> shortcut here and that the path forward will require a substantial >> investment – one that we have not yet started given the other priorities >> we’ve been working on. Every year we have to make difficult tradeoffs >> around what areas of our technical infrastructure we can and cannot take >> on. In the current fiscal year, the Product and Technology department has >> made experienced editors a priority [3], and many things that volunteers >> have asked for are either accomplished or in flight: >> >> Improvements to PageTriage (complete) [4] >> Watchlist in the iOS app (complete) [5] >> Patrolling in the Android app (in progress) [6] >> Dark mode (in progress) [7] >> Improvements to the Commons Upload Wizard (in progress) [8] >> …and other projects. >> >> But I know this conversation isn’t as much about what editors need as >> what current and future readers need. Between talking about interactive >> content and talking about video, it sounds like we’re having the larger >> conversation of what we should be offering today’s and tomorrow’s readers >> to help them learn from encyclopedic content – whether we need to be >> offering interactivity, or video, or perhaps enabling other platforms/apps >> to use our content to make interactive or video materials there. This is a >> really important conversation, because even working together we probably >> will not be able to build all of it – we’ll have to make hard choices about >> where to invest. One place where this broader conversation is happening is >> called “Future Audiences”, which does experiments on how to reach newer >> generations who use the internet differently than previous generations – >> and thinking particularly about video. Future Audiences has regular calls >> with community members to shape the direction of those experiments, which >> in turn inform how the broader Foundation prioritizes. I hope many of you >> will get involved in those conversations – you can sign up here. [9] >> >> Focusing back on graphs, since that’s what kicked this thread off, the >> several approaches we’ve attempted for quickly re-enabling the extension >> have ended up having security or performance problems. Therefore, we think >> that if we were to support graphs and other interactive content, we would >> need to plan substantial investment in sustainable architecture. This way, >> our approach would work securely and stably for the longer term. But that >> would take significant resources, and we’ll need to weigh it against many >> other important priorities, like tools for functionaries, improvements to >> the editing experience, automated ways to stop vandals, etc. >> >> To be clear, if we do assign resources to the planning and building of an >> architecture for graphs (and other interactive content), it means that we >> are still at least several more months away from having a working >> Foundation-supported architecture. Therefore, I think we should also be >> having the additional conversation that many others have brought up about >> what volunteers can do in these intervening months to make graphs somewhat >> available to users. I know people are talking about that concretely on the >> Phabricator task, and I will join that conversation as well. >> For the bigger question, I would like to start with some more learning >> about which kinds of interactive content are important for our >> encyclopedia, and how our community members see the evolution of the >> reading experience on our projects. I’d like to have some small >> conversations with many of you so that we can get into the details and >> ideas, joined by some of my colleagues. I’ll start reaching out to see who >> is interested in talking – and please let me know directly if you’d like to >> talk. >> >> Thank you for weighing in so far, and let’s keep talking and planning >> together. >> >> Marshall >> >> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:MMiller_(WMF) >> [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940 >> [3] >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024#Our_approach_for_the_future >> [4] >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_Curation/2023_Moderator_Tools_project#October_20,_2023:_Final_update >> ! >> [5] >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Watchlist#October_2023 >> [6] >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/Android/Anti_Vandalism >> [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Accessibility_for_reading >> [8] >> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:WMF_support_for_Commons/Upload_Wizard_Improvements >> [9] >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Future_Audiences#Sign_up_to_participate! >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/CPYNFK3PDTP6YVLZU3SLOJOXYJMOQHM5/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/OZC7KCXVZAUWPCNNALLEIV26DIRNKPX7/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], 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_______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/7GUBBA3EXKFDHCCF3AOMULB37IE7SDWL/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> >> >> >> -- >> James Heilman >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/K4DHXRAKQ3G6WWYMQ47VAEQ5ANH5Z425/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> > > > -- > James Heilman > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing 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