It's interesting to see the WMF talking clearly about the issue of interactivity. The word "interactiv*" appears exactly ZERO TIMES in the Annual plan Objetives, Key Results and Hypotheses (just published): https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs
Could it be worse? Yes, for sure. Everything can be worse, but we need to make an extra effort to find how. ________________________________ From: James Heilman <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, June 7, 2024 5:28 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong Way 3 is only banned if staff decide external links are too dangerous. J Sent from Gmail Mobile On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 01:54 Charles Roberson <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: James, Way 1-3 was effectively banned by WMF today. Way 4 is still viable, but expecting the staff to start it up for you is a pipe dream. - Charles On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 4:01 PM James Heilman <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I have laid out 4 strategies for including OWID in mediawiki here https://mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID We can of course do the third one immediately. Ie simply link in the caption to the interactive graphs hosted by OWID itself. James On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 9:15 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: It doesn't matter what we think. It doesn't even matter if we collectively decide that we want to go on that direction. The WMF's Annual Plan and every single answer points that they don't mind. We were doing it wrong one year ago. Now is even worse. Catastrophic, but not serious. ________________________________ From: James Heilman <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2024 9:09 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong Yah, not sure what Bergsma (WMF)<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mark_Bergsma_(WMF)> is trying to say... No one is dismissing security or privacy. One; however, does need to balance risk versus benefit and of course mitigate security and privacy issues along the way. Allowing fear of security or privacy risks to paralyse us is also not ideal. Kimmo for sure we could internalize everything ie run their software on production servers, we already host their data on Commons (that was a many year effort). Made the request 8 or so years ago to host their software in fact, but the WMF dissolved the team / individual working on this effort. I still think that is a reasonable way forwards. James On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 8:03 PM Kimmo Virtanen <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi, Just as a practical question in terms of what has been already done. As it seems that all proposals where extension will require external connections outside of Wikimedia production sites are no-go the feasible next step would be to modify the OurWorldInData extension so that it would load the graph data from Wikimedia commons. Is this already done even for a limited number of example graphs? If not then this could be the next step and then ask for a new security review on this approach. Though, even after it is solved that extension doesn't need external connections outside wikimedia production it still would require some level code review that OWID grapher doesn't do anything unexpected. Data itself in least some extend is in Commons - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Our_World_in_Data_datasets The OurWorldInData grapher - https://github.com/owid/owid-grapher/tree/master/packages/%40ourworldindata/grapher Application Security Review Request : OurWorldInData - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T324989 Br, -- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 6:46 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Has this discussion impacted somehow on the WMF's approach to the future. Well, today we had the answer: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget#c-Mark_Bergsma_(WMF)-20240606152100-Sj-20240428061700 (TL;DR: no) Galder ________________________________ From: Daniel Mui <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 9:40 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong I would agree that no mention in the OKR would be quite disturbing... However the 2024 report is NOT out yet, these are draft issues and I would not make judgement until the full report is ready, which i believe to be april. ________________________________ Dear All, I understand the frustration around the lack of progress on interactive content and the discontinuation of the Graph extension. However, I'd like to point out a few things. First, the response from staff members reaching out to editors for their opinions was remarkably quick. This type of response is not common, and Wikipedia is unique in its hands-on approach to issues like this, it is something to be proud of and also something that takes time. Second, the Graph tool is being overhauled rather than patched. This is a significant undertaking that will bring all our tools into the modern age, making them more accessible and removing the underlying vulnerabilities that led to the current situation in the first place, it will also ensure the tool is up-to-date in terms of UX through things like codex and other modern improvements that long term will allow more users to create graphs which hopefully will keep it a priority to maintain, again thinking long term here. I know that this is taking time, but I believe that developing a robust and sustainable solution is the best approach. Doing it this way rather than delaying it for another six months is something I'd rather have and I'd like to thank the hard working wikimedia team for that. Thanks, Daniel On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 8:03 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Dear all, Soon it will be a year since the Graph extension is disabled in all wikis. Meanwhile, we have been discussing about interactive content here and there, and there have been some promises about changes in the platform so these changes are possible in the future. Today the draft of the Key Results for the 2024-2025 annual plan was published and there's no single mention to this, nor to improving the multimedia experience. The disconnection between the needs and the plans is so evident, that I don't really know why we even bother discussing. You can see the Key Results here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs>. This is extremely disappointing. Best, Galder ________________________________ From: Samuel Klein <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2024 3:37 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong Beautiful. Thank you Felipe!! 🌍🌏🌎🌑 On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 5:54 AM Felipe Schenone <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi Galder, I just did this fix<https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition&diff=prev&oldid=9637458> and your Vivarium seems to be working now. The documentation was ok, but a bit confusing, so I improved it too. Soon I'll send a patch to make those "special categories" unnecessary. In the meantime, they're a necessary annoyance, I'm afraid. Cheers! On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 5:37 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Thanks Felipe, that's a really great move. I looked to these examples a couple o years ago, and this seems that a good option to add some interactive content. Anyway, I have tried to replicate it and can't make it work (https://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Txantiloi:Vivarium). Is the documentation right? Best Galder ________________________________ From: Felipe Schenone <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2024 10:39 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong Hi everyone, good news! Thanks to this humble change<https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/Gadgets/+/1005092> (deployed today) it is now possible to load a specific gadget when a specific template is used in a page. This opens the door (or perhaps a window?) to interactive content using JavaScript. See for example this article in the Spanish Wikipedia<https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juego_de_la_vida> for an interactive instance of Conway's Game of Life, and scroll down for more instances! I started documenting the system at MediaWiki.org, under the title template gadgets<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template_gadgets>, and included many working examples. Check it out! Perhaps the system isn't as friendly or powerful a solution as some might hope. But it's very real, and it only depends on us now. Next week, when the documentation and examples are a bit more cooked, I'll propose adding a few "template gadgets" to the English Wikipedia, since my experience has taught me that when something hits the English Wikipedia, it quickly spreads elsewhere. I'll link to the proposal when I do, in case you want to participate. There's so much more that could be said about this, but I'd rather keep it short. If you have questions or ideas, feel free to write them here or at the relevant talk page<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Template_gadgets>. Kind regards, Felipe (User:Sophivorus) On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 5:31 AM danboy12342 Mui <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi everyone, I agree that Wikipedia needs to spend a few quarters spending time on our main product. The website is very impressively still the top result of a huge number of searches and in this new AI age; despite the controversy around it, wikipedia is the top source for many LLMs. Therefore while it doesn't need to be the only focus or even *the* focus most of the time it does need to be kept working but not just kept as is, it needs to be innovative and continue to meet the growing demands of a "modern" and "useable" site that allow users to get the information they need as fast and effectively as possible, these days that means interactivity. I feel I'm repeating others but a quick burst of very serious investment into the site and its many sister pages needs to happen sooner rather than later. Finally I'd like to thank Marshall again for his remarkable comments. It's good to see that this issue is clearly a priority that foundation staff are already looking at. - Daniel. --------------------- On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 09:17 Gnangarra <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi I just like to highlight one point, that raises concerns; perhaps enabling other platforms/apps to use our content to make interactive or video materials there. While this sounds like an easy solution we run into a number of hidden costs. These are significant when we push for reusers to present what we are doing in better ways we lose the movement's revenue stream as less people see our donation banners. With less direct traffic we also sacrifice the ability to convert readers into contributors which has always been our primary source of community sustainability and growth. I know other providers will find different ways to present our efforts in part or in whole that is part of our purpose, to do our mission and achieve our goals we need prioritise internal solutions. This also leads us to a related issue that our mission is to make the sum of all knowledge freely available. When we look to outside parties to share our efforts we lose our ability to ensure that the information is neutral, and that it's freely accessible. Butch is right in noting that when we put funding into third party sites it is taking resources away from the movement, yet those same funds were donated to us on the basis of maintaining and building our infrastructure. It would be a wise investment to enable some of those much needed interactive and video content here through purchasing rights. On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 at 12:20, Butch Bustria <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi Everyone, My earnest hope that the Wikimedia Foundation on its 2024-2025 Annual Financial Plan prioritize and I mean put first among all is the technical infrastructure among all its budgetary items. We can scale down budgets to 3rd party organizations like the Knowledge Equity Fund, Movement Strategy Governance funding, campaign grants, and other "wants" to accomodate a highly technically reliable and stable Wikimedia online projects ("needs"), future proof, and user friendly experience which require investments on quality manpower, hardware, applications and the like. We love open source but we also be pragmatic and wise on selection of choices because we want our content be conveniently available and reliable to our readers, users, consumers and also editors. A welcome development is the MediaWiki Users and Developers Conference, the successor to EMWCon. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Users_and_Developers_Conference_2024 The said conference will be held in Portland, Oregon, from April 17–19, 2024. I also hope the Foundation invest in more technical gatherings, both onsite, hybrid or online to engage and reach out to more technical contributors, within and beyond the Wikimedia movement. I also hope WMF to start exploring eastward to Asia or elsewhere in the world as well fully diversify the technical community. Kind regards, Butch Bustria On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 4:54 AM Brion Vibber <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Thanks for weighing in, Marshall! I agree wholeheartedly that we need to do a proper architecture for a sandbox for interactive media, that will be safe (first and foremost), perform well in the browser, work across device types (desktop web, mobile web, mobile apps), and maintain our key requirements on editability and reusability, balanced against the security and privacy needs of users if we're going to invest the effort. Backing up to do it right rather than patch up Graphs “one more time” is the right thing, and I’m very happy to see a confluence of interest around this now! My hope is we can figure out how to make that architecture & testing work happen in the near term until we collectively (inside WMF and out) can wrangle resources to make the implementation production-ready. Once we have a common infrastructure to build on, it’ll be easier for work to progress on individual types of media (graphs, charts, maps, animations, editable simulations, coding examples, etc, as well as classics like panorama viewers and integrating the audio/video player into a sandbox for heightened security). My biggest hope is that we’ll enable more work from outside WMF to happen – letting volunteers and other orgs who might have their own specialty areas and work funding to progress without every change being a potential new security risk. When we have succeeded in the past, we have succeeded by making tools that other people can use as their own basis to build their own works. I’m confident we can get there on interactive media with some common focus. Let's all try to capture some of this momentum while we've got it and set ourselves up for success down the road. – b On Tue, Feb 6, 2024, 12:27 PM <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi everyone – My name is Marshall Miller, I am a Senior Director of Product at the Wikimedia Foundation, and I work with many of the teams that are involved with the user experience of our websites and apps, such as the Editing, Web, Growth, and Mobile Apps teams (among others) [1]. I’m part of the leadership group that makes decisions about how the WMF teams approach things like graphs, interactive content, and video. Thank you all for having this in-depth and important discussion. I know that issues with graphs [2] are what started this discussion, but I agree that it makes sense to think about this in terms of the broader category of “interactive content”, because other kinds of interactive content, such as maps or timelines, would share architecture with what is needed for graphs (video is a different and more complicated content type). I wrote a lot in this email, but here are a couple of the main points up front: to support graphs and other interactive content, we would need to take a step back and make a substantial investment in sustainable architecture to do it – so that it works well, safely, and is built to last. And because that’s a substantial investment, we need to weigh it against other important investments in order to decide whether and when to do it. I know that it is very frustrating that the Graph extension has not been operational for many months – it means readers haven’t been seeing graphs in articles, and editors haven’t been able to use graphs to do things like monitor backlogs in WikiProjects. Over the months of trying to find a way to turn graphs back on, it has become clear that there isn’t a safe shortcut here and that the path forward will require a substantial investment – one that we have not yet started given the other priorities we’ve been working on. Every year we have to make difficult tradeoffs around what areas of our technical infrastructure we can and cannot take on. In the current fiscal year, the Product and Technology department has made experienced editors a priority [3], and many things that volunteers have asked for are either accomplished or in flight: Improvements to PageTriage (complete) [4] Watchlist in the iOS app (complete) [5] Patrolling in the Android app (in progress) [6] Dark mode (in progress) [7] Improvements to the Commons Upload Wizard (in progress) [8] …and other projects. But I know this conversation isn’t as much about what editors need as what current and future readers need. Between talking about interactive content and talking about video, it sounds like we’re having the larger conversation of what we should be offering today’s and tomorrow’s readers to help them learn from encyclopedic content – whether we need to be offering interactivity, or video, or perhaps enabling other platforms/apps to use our content to make interactive or video materials there. This is a really important conversation, because even working together we probably will not be able to build all of it – we’ll have to make hard choices about where to invest. One place where this broader conversation is happening is called “Future Audiences”, which does experiments on how to reach newer generations who use the internet differently than previous generations – and thinking particularly about video. Future Audiences has regular calls with community members to shape the direction of those experiments, which in turn inform how the broader Foundation prioritizes. I hope many of you will get involved in those conversations – you can sign up here. [9] Focusing back on graphs, since that’s what kicked this thread off, the several approaches we’ve attempted for quickly re-enabling the extension have ended up having security or performance problems. Therefore, we think that if we were to support graphs and other interactive content, we would need to plan substantial investment in sustainable architecture. This way, our approach would work securely and stably for the longer term. But that would take significant resources, and we’ll need to weigh it against many other important priorities, like tools for functionaries, improvements to the editing experience, automated ways to stop vandals, etc. To be clear, if we do assign resources to the planning and building of an architecture for graphs (and other interactive content), it means that we are still at least several more months away from having a working Foundation-supported architecture. Therefore, I think we should also be having the additional conversation that many others have brought up about what volunteers can do in these intervening months to make graphs somewhat available to users. I know people are talking about that concretely on the Phabricator task, and I will join that conversation as well. For the bigger question, I would like to start with some more learning about which kinds of interactive content are important for our encyclopedia, and how our community members see the evolution of the reading experience on our projects. I’d like to have some small conversations with many of you so that we can get into the details and ideas, joined by some of my colleagues. I’ll start reaching out to see who is interested in talking – and please let me know directly if you’d like to talk. Thank you for weighing in so far, and let’s keep talking and planning together. Marshall [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:MMiller_(WMF) [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940 [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024#Our_approach_for_the_future [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_Curation/2023_Moderator_Tools_project#October_20,_2023:_Final_update! [5] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Watchlist#October_2023 [6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/Android/Anti_Vandalism [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Accessibility_for_reading [8] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:WMF_support_for_Commons/Upload_Wizard_Improvements [9] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Future_Audiences#Sign_up_to_participate! _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/CPYNFK3PDTP6YVLZU3SLOJOXYJMOQHM5/ To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>, guidelines at: 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