Why is my message to this thread getting rejected? It says "Message rejected by filter rule match"?
Cheers Yaroslav On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Yaroslav Blanter <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear All, > > I guess we are discussing this contest: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_ > in_Red/The_World_Contest > > because this is the one which starts in two weeks. > > For the full disclosure, I have absolutely no relation to the contest and > will likely not participate. > > First, this is an internal affair of the English Wikipedia. I am not sure > why it should be discussed on wikimedia-l. > > Second, we have seen many writing contests and drives and personal > initiatives on Wikipedia. Some were successful, some were complete > disaster. Whether the contest/drive is successful depends on the > organizers, and, in particular, on whether the goals are set properly. > > This one aims at 10K (not 100K) new articles in two months. This is > realistic and, even if some articles are substandard, will not disturb the > flow of Wikipedia. I recognize a lot of people who signed up as established > editors who certainly know how to source articles. The rules of the contest > establish 1K of pure prose (it indeed stated in one place 0.75K, which I > changed to align with what is written in the rules of the contest.) They > also specify that the articles must be properly sourced. A fully sourced 1K > prose is a solid stub, and I do not see how it could harm Wikipedia. The > organizer is Dr. Blofeld, who previously organized events of similar scope > which were successful. (I for example participated in the Arfica destubaton > last year and won a prize; I closely monitored the quality and I saw how > Dr. Blofeld handled the quality control, I have no issues with that). > > To summarize, at this point I do not see any reasons for alarm. > > I would like, however, to address two more points which were raised in > this topic. First, the monetary prizes. I personally oppose giving monetary > prizes for writing Wikipedia articles. When I participated in the Africa > destubaton I mentioned above, I made it very clear that I am not going to > accept a monetary prize. After I won the contest in the nomination of the > articles on Mozambique, I had an Amazon voucher sent to me, which I spent > to buy an article on the history of Mozambique. So I am definitely not a > fan of monetary prizes, on the other hand, this is not the first contest > which offers monetary prizes, the prizes are of a scope comparable to what > what offered at similar contests previously, and if the issue has to be > discussed, it has to be discussed in a broader scope, not in relation to > this particular contest. > > Second, I am not sure how I should interpret the opinions that the > articles about women should be sourced worse than the articles about men, > but currently there is consensus on the English Wikipedia on how the > notability and verifiability policies should be implemented (I guess this > could be different in other projects). The community is currently not > accepting unsourced and poorly sourced articles, we have the trial running > for autoconfirmed article creation, and the queue of new page patrol, which > is now 13K articles, slowly goes down. (We actually struggled a lot to get > it going down, for several years). Any unsourced article about living > people gets PRODded within hours. No action which would attempt to revert > this trend is going to be accepted. It is not about woman vs man or Africa > vs Europe, it is about verifiability. > > Having said this, if there is a competition suddenly up in the air, aimed > at 100K articles, poorly organized and with unrealistically weak > requirements, I would definitely call it a road to disaster. It is just > what I referenced is not this. > > Cheers > Yaroslav > > On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:56 AM, Gnangarra <[email protected]> wrote: > >> This has nothing to do with Gender, >> >> The issue is the standards required and the aim of the event not the >> subjects of the content.... >> >> The event set a minimum standard at 0.75k per article created, new editors >> going through articles for creation are required to have 1.5k of prose >> which is twice the requirement for this competition. >> >> I'll repeat we should not expect more from new editors than we do from >> existing editors, regardless of the subject. With any competition we >> should be expecting a higher amount than the minimum from existing >> community members, mass creation of stubs is not the best way to address >> to >> encourage those editors to take an interest in developing subjects. >> >> Any competition of this magnitude should also have the resources to ensure >> that in the process we dont do more damage >> >> >> >> On 16 October 2017 at 13:57, Natacha Rault <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > I can only agree with GorillaWarfare. I am also tired of having to >> proove >> > anything concernig gender has to be perfect, when the whole principle of >> > Wikipedia is that everything is always perfectible. >> > I think we should assume good faith and avoid <sarcastic> comments. >> > Doing nothing about the gender gap would not bring a positive image of >> our >> > movement. The gap is huge and we do need quantity. Readers noticing >> > mistakes sometimes become contributors (dont we need new contributors?). >> > Chosing such a tone “intentionally” (citing Gnangarra) is something I >> find >> > shocking. I think criticism is good to make progress, one does not need >> to >> > fuel resentmemt by making it <sarcastic>. >> > >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > >> > Nattes à chat / Natacha >> > >> > >> > > Le 16 oct. 2017 à 05:51, GorillaWarfare <gorillawarfarewikipedia@ >> > gmail.com> a écrit : >> > > >> > > Also, in case it's not clear from my forwarding of Emily's/Keilana's >> > > message, I endorse it completely and am glad she made her points. >> > > >> > > I agree fully with Keegan and Sydney. I don't think the concerns that >> > this >> > > will be overtaken by bots are well-founded; that was planned for in >> the >> > > document outlining the competition, and editors involved in this >> project >> > > will be subject to all expectations of normal editors (including not >> > > mass-producing poor-quality content). >> > > >> > > As for Keegan's original post, there is a major difference between >> > > describing an email as sexist versus labeling the sender as a sexist. >> I >> > > believe Keegan meant the former, and I'm not sure anything he's said >> can >> > be >> > > described as an attack on the sender so much as a valid criticism of >> poor >> > > wording. >> > > >> > > – Molly (GorillaWarfare) >> > > >> > > On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 11:44 PM, GorillaWarfare >> > <gorillawarfarewikipedia@ >> > > gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Emily (User:Keilana) is having some trouble getting mails through to >> > this >> > >> list, so I'm forwarding this on her behalf in case it's an issue with >> > her >> > >> email address. >> > >> >> > >> "This is some sexist bullshit. You really think we can't handle some >> > >> stubs? And do you really, really think that people won't try to AFD >> > >> everything that comes out of this contest as it is? >> > >> >> > >> I'm sick and tired of this idea that we have to hold shit about women >> > to a >> > >> higher standard than literally anything else. The encyclopedia isn't >> > going >> > >> to break because, god forbid, some inexperienced newbies write a >> bunch >> > of >> > >> stubs. >> > >> >> > >> And so what if people think we're paying lip service to women? It's >> > better >> > >> than being seen as being actively hostile to women, which, as I >> > shouldn't >> > >> have to remind you, is our reputation as it currently stands." >> > >> >> > >> – Molly (GorillaWarfare) >> > >> >> > >>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Gnangarra <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> No worries Keegan I read it as sarcastic, given the amount of noise >> on >> > >>> here >> > >>> I chose my tone intentionally to draw attention to the competition, >> > yes it >> > >>> looks like a wonderful idea until to look at the mechanics of >> > comeptition >> > >>> given it has a start time in 2 weeks, people are being encourage to >> > start >> > >>> now in sandboxes, its being advertised on banners yet it has very >> > obvious >> > >>> under lying issues >> > >>> >> > >>> - unrealistic targets >> > >>> - quantity not quality >> > >>> - an expectation that competitors are required to do half of what >> is >> > >>> expected from new editors , we should hold ourselves and expect of >> > >>> higher >> > >>> standards than that we expect from new comers >> > >>> - no methodology for notability. blp, copyright issues arent >> weeded >> > out >> > >>> during the event or judging >> > >>> - judging is done by a bot just doing a count >> > >>> >> > >>> To win this event all you need is a list, a script, and reliable >> > internet >> > >>> connection, despite having so many signed up well experience good >> > editors >> > >>> on the list. <sarcasm> Sadly one person using a Wikidata script to >> > >>> create >> > >>> articles could be the winner, just imagine the unimaginable >> > >>> frankenstienian horror that would create </sarcasm> >> > >>> >> > >>> Any competition that relies on numbers alone is fraught with danger, >> > the >> > >>> big international events all succeed not because of numbers but >> > because >> > >>> of >> > >>> large teams(this run by one person alone) focused on quality with >> the >> > >>> whole >> > >>> processes divided into manageable opt-in regional sections. All the >> > >>> initiatives to focus on under represented topics need to be careful >> few >> > >>> thousands of poor quality stubs about women is more harmful than >> having >> > >>> nothing as people will perceive Wikipedia to be paying lip service >> to >> > >>> women. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> On 16 October 2017 at 07:18, Keegan Peterzell < >> [email protected]> >> > >>> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>>>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Gergő Tisza <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Keegan Peterzell < >> > >>>> [email protected]> >> > >>>>> wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> "The nerve of these women, to think that they can write >> encyclopedia >> > >>>>>> articles on women who must inherently be non-notable! There's >> > >>> nothing >> > >>>> to >> > >>>>>> write about here." >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> That's basically what your email says. No complaints when the >> > >>> subject >> > >>>> is >> > >>>>>> anything else from you, when these thematic editing are held on >> > >>> other >> > >>>>>> subjects. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Please avoid personal attacks based on hidden motivations you >> assume >> > >>>> other >> > >>>>> parties to have; it's contrary to the Wikimedia movement's social >> > best >> > >>>>> practices [1] and bound to take discussions in unproductive >> > >>> directions. >> > >>>>> When criticizing what someone said, stick to what they actually >> said. >> > >>>>> Especially so if your accusation of bad faith would be essentially >> > >>>>> content-free. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Todd, Gnangarra, Gergő, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> My intention, as I touched on earlier, was not to make a personal >> > attack >> > >>>> but to address the tone in which I perceived the email to be >> written. >> > I >> > >>>> don't believe Gnangarra is actually sexist. I certainly stand by my >> > >>>> position that the content of the initial post is unhelpful >> criticism >> > and >> > >>>> mostly hyperbole, but I'm more than willing to apologize if my >> > language >> > >>>> came across as a personal attack. I could have written it >> differently. >> > >>> So, >> > >>>> sorry about that. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> -- >> > >>>> ~Keegan >> > >>>> >> > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan >> > >>>> >> > >>>> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email >> > >>> address >> > >>>> is in a personal capacity. >> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > >>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > >>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > >>>> New messages to: [email protected] >> > >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >> > , >> > >>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsu >> bscribe> >> > >>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> -- >> > >>> GN. >> > >>> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page >> > >>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra >> > >>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> > >>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> > >>> i/Wikimedia-l >> > >>> New messages to: [email protected] >> > >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsu >> bscribe> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > New messages to: [email protected] >> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >> , >> > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > New messages to: [email protected] >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> GN. >> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page >> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra >> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> i/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: [email protected] >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
