I think we just just continue the conversation on a different
topic. ;-)
On Oct 31, 4:27 pm, achipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Okay, now we are not even in generic software / ISV land but generic
> solutions talk. Which is cool, but a bit irrelevant unless you're
> doing things on the scale that nears IBM or SAP :) If I'm a baker and
> somebody suddenly comes in and says he needs apples, I won't be able
> to sell him one, but that does not mean I can't be a good baker, but
> rather that the client is lost if he want's to buy such a thing in
> such a place. The 1-2-3 is troublesome as we were talking about
> prototyping as a part of understanding the problem. This is for larger
> businesses where we first make a case study / concept and then make
> choices and solutions. For small-medium scale things, for which web2py
> is IMO most suited for, you often don't have that luxury - the
> prototype is at least halfway to the solution. The technology is VERY
> relevant as it can be a part of the spec and you can't really offer
> all possible technologies (unless, you are on the level that you don't
> do the actual development and are an integrator with dozens of
> subcontractors). If the client does not have at least a basic grasp of
> the technology (not talking about web2py or sql level) how will he
> know which solution providers he needs to turn to in the first place -
> so he's not asking for apples in the bakery mentioned above ? We can
> rename the topic to IT / B2B management now :)
>
> On Oct 31, 8:15 pm, "Yarko T" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The nature of the problem is different from the nature of the solution... in
> > that, the technology is _completely_ irrelevant;
>
> > The solution provider's problem is [1] understanding the problem [2]
> > understanding the technology (to know what solution level can be
> > offered.... and [3] competitively costing the solution.
>
> > In the second problem space, the question "what does appcelerator / and or
> > web2py provide me - the solution provider" - is completely relevant.
>
> > Who's problem perspective we are talking about is what seems to be in
> > question. I mean appcelerator (or anything like this) is evaluated from the
> > perspective of solution-provider's-problem. For a discussion of the
> > differing aspects of problem vs. solution (and how you can tell which you
> > are talking about)
> > seehttp://www.ccsr.uiuc.edu/web/Techreports/1990-94/CCSR-91-14.pdf
>
> > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:24 PM, achipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > We seem to be using different terminology, apart from that, I agree (I
> > > would have said defining the problem *is* a task which is part of the
> > > whole project, just as prototyping is a task/phase in itself,
> > > sometimes overlapping other tasks to an extent). The importance of
> > > clients understanding the technologies involved at least to a certain
> > > level can hardly be avoided. Otherwise, they simply won't know what is
> > > possible (and won't communicate it to you as a problem or requirement
> > > and thus will be very hard to discover). On the other side is the 'too
> > > savvy for his own good' problem, where they request a *specific
> > > solution* without both of you analyzing the problem and requirements
> > > (like requesting/specifying the development of a complex feature which
> > > has already been technologically surpassed or there is an acceptable
> > > solution available from third parties). But we digress, this is
> > > generic software development talk, and has less to do with
> > > appcelerator and web2py.
>
> > > On Oct 31, 4:46 pm, "Yarko T" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Defining the problem is part of the task; prototyping can help clarify
> > > > /
> > > > validate; the preliminary part I don't think requires client knowledge
> > > of
> > > > technology, nor consultant/company knowledge of client problem - it is a
> > > > discovery phase, which is equally important when you _think_ you have a
> > > > grasp of what is needed.
>
> > > > There is no one "right" or "best" strategy, but a bagful... but one
> > > thing
> > > > common is "rapid prototyping", or mockups, _and_ effective listening
> > > (that
> > > > is NOT jumping to solution - a common engineer's behavior, necessarily:
> > > we
> > > > are those who solve, after all) are all part of it.
>
> > > > In terms of web application solutions, malleability of "look",
> > > presentation
> > > > to user is something that helps delivery (underlying business logic is
> > > > perhaps the most stable component of a solution, evolving rather than so
> > > > much changing; we seem to have the DB / backend part in pretty good
> > > shape).
>
> > > > Proposed engineering adjuncts / solutions like Appcellerator I think
> > > > need
> > > to
> > > > be evaluated in the light of how well it serves the engineering needs as
> > > I
> > > > outline above, particularly support of effectively being able to iterate
> > > as
> > > > client needs are better understood & discovered through a process.
>
> > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:40 PM, achipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > We were talking about the tech part of prototyping (the idea to
> > > > > prototype phase of project). The prototyping you outline contains also
> > > > > a preliminary part - the development of the idea itself. Often the
> > > > > client does not really know what he wants or has a very limited grasp
> > > > > of the technology and solutions available. In these cases, good old
> > > > > pen and paper (even if electronic like google docs, or just annotated
> > > > > mockup screenshots) are a very valid and good way to go to get an
> > > > > actual spec, which then can go to tech people to be prototyped and
> > > > > developed/refined further.
>
> > > > > On Oct 30, 10:38 pm, "Steve Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > Just to pickup on the prototyping discussion,
> > > > > > I have pulled my hair out about this for over 3 years.
> > > > > > The key to prototyping is to allow very quick changing of ideas to
> > > match
> > > > > the
> > > > > > GOALS of the user.
> > > > > > If you code it you start pouring concrete and immediately start
> > > building
> > > > > > walls to further innovation.
> > > > > > The more effort a coder invests in developing the prototype the more
> > > > > > resistent to changes the mind automatically becomes.
> > > > > > I finally settle on a simple Google doc with hand drawing of the
> > > screen
> > > > > with
> > > > > > implementation notes at the bottom.
> > > > > > Its not perfect but it does allow collaboration with google docs and
> > > it
> > > > > > doesn't have a whole technical knowledge thing to breakdown.
>
> > > > > > Below I have included an example of a screen I am developing for an
> > > > > > applicaiton:
> > > > > > (The square brackets are buttons and dropdowns)
>
> > > > > > The Marketing Manager Main Page
> > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > [Add a Campaign] [Select an Action[v]]**- (1 to 2 of 15) Campaigns
> > > > > > * *Select*
> > > > > > *Title
> > > > > > * *Information
> > > > > > * *Responses*
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > ( )*
> > > > > > *Messages to Prospective Students for Hort 2 Course prior to them
> > > > > signing
> > > > > > up*
> > > > > > (4) Messages, Horticulture, Agri Learning Category, Followup,
> > > Modified
> > > > > > Yesterday, By Me The Information section is a combo of a number of
> > > fields
> > > > > of
> > > > > > information.
> > > > > > (10) People linked
> > > > > > (2) Sent a Response
> > > > > > (20% Responses)
> > > > > > (3) Added last 10 days [Adjust]
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > * *(*)*
> > > > > > *A Welcome for new Hort 2 Students before course starts.*
> > > > > > (2) Messages, Horticulture Category, Countdown, Modified Last Week,
> > > By
> > > > > Jan
> > > > > > Davies
>
> > > > > > *Include
> > > > > > * *Filter the Campaigns
> > > > > > * [X]
> > > > > > Horticulture
> > > > > > [X]
> > > > > > Agri Learning
> > > > > > [ ]
> > > > > > Sport
> > > > > > [X]
> > > > > > Last 7 Days
> > > > > > [ ]
> > > > > > Last Month
> > > > > > [X]
> > > > > > By Me
> > > > > > [X]
> > > > > > By Others
> > > > > > *Options*
> > > > > > *Add a Filter*
>
> > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > Design Info You can hover over the 2 and change the number of
> > > records on
> > > > > a
> > > > > > Page. etc etc
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