Hi, My 2 cents:
I have been a Java web and Swing developer for 5 years. I use great Enhydra + DODS (database layer) frameworks and have created some huge applications with these technologies. I used to develop in PHP and Perl too but it's been an old history. Those are my experiences from a real production world. >From my perspective - I LOVE java (mainly it's pure syntax and all free libraries around it - apache's libraries for example). It's a very sad fact that there is no good lightweight web framework for java (Grails is a new alternative but it uses RUBY like syntax which I really hate (Perl like syntax) - subjectively very unreadable for a team of cooparating programmers). But I have just started to look at some new (lighter and faster) RAPID development tools. So yesterday, I took a Python user's guide and went through it - hey that was so easy (but still prefer Java :-). You know there are lot of good python web frameworks (that's why I choose python). Then I downloaded web2py manual ... and took me around 4 hours to walk through it's 80 pages + create 3 apps :-) Very intuitive, simple and pure. To be true I have to say that I don't like it's old JSP style. You know there is no complete web design and code separation because of it. Morover forms are created with a python - all design should be made from a HTML perspective only. I know - all can not be perfect :-) As for an Appcelerator: 1. Like it's general form - can be used from almost any language (Java, Php, Python, Ruby, ...) so you are not stuck in 1 language !! 2. Designer sees what you see (almost). 3. No Javascript needed - I hate javascript - for anyone who knows full java - it is a real nightmare to debug this stupid thing. Dislike: It does not seem to me to be a secure way to validate inputs on a client's side. But I agree that almost everything can be done with a JQuery too. Have a nice day guys. On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 1:51 AM, achipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What people might be misunderstanding is my motivation here... There > are hardly black-and-white choices, and when an engineering/business > decision has to be made, it's usually for a particular situation. > While the tone might have been a bit harsh, I'm not saying > appcelerator sucks and nobody should ever use it. It's just that based > on my experience, it is useable (with caveats) for very limited > applications. OpenLaszlo does almost exactly the same thing, but as > it's from 5 years ago, it uses tech that was all the buzz for serious > web apps back then - generates flash from a Java backend, and the > flash does the dynamic stuff from XML files you can 'code'. > Appcelerator just adapts this to the present day buzz (replaces flash > with JS widgets, uses HTML+AJAX instead of flash reloading XML files > for the client side logic, instead of LZX markup language you have web > expression language, etc). So *IMO* nothing revolutionary there, still > the same (questionable) concept, still looks cool, still hard to > develop, still hard to maintain, still has a strong lock-in, still a > lot of untransferrable knowledge, and that is why I don't see > appcelerator succeed (on a large scale) where OpenLaszlo had failed. > But then again, I'm still earning my first million bucks, so maybe > it's just me who doesn't get it ;) > > With regard to toolkits - yes, we should use anything nice that fits > our paradigm, but don't shift a paradigm to fit the tool (which is > exactly why I don't think much of Silverlight and kin). If there are > parts of Appcelerator that could be used to improve web2py, Massimo > should use them by all means, but know your stuff, make conceptual & > engineering and not buzz choices. > > Take for example, in my case, PHP. Nobody argues that there are a lot > of excellent sites done in PHP, huge userbase, a lot of development, > frameworks, etc, etc, and yet, I *feel* there is no way I'm going back > to PHP. Why ? PHP was good for doing simple stuff quickly. All the > libs in one place, everything is global, you could make a dynamic web > page in 2 minutes, and that's what drove LAMP to success. On the high- > end, there was no question that for business app, you would use Java. > As time progressed, web sites got more complex, and PHP itself went > the way of more complexity, object orientation, templates, frameworks, > soon namespaces. And here is the catch - in the process of migrating > upwards on the business ladder, it just became too unwieldy (for me). > The simple sites PHP was good at simply do not exist any more, and all > the cruft from the age when quick and dirty was all the rage makes it > cumbersome for the large ones (although as we can see the inertia is > pretty strong, so PHP is still in high demand). Enter web2py. Python > is just so much more elegant and more suitable for development of both > system and web applications that when teamed with a nice framework > (who said web2py ? :) it becomes my new 'ideal choice' for modern > small-to-medium scale web apps. Simple (enough) and Powerful (enough). > After a month with Python I didn't want to loose time with Perl again. > After a month with django and web2py I didn't want to loose time with > PHP (with Zend, Cake and Seagull) again. Do you see where I'm going ? > You can do anything in almost any of these tools and languages > (appcelerator and openlaszlo included), it's just the question of > effort (which translates to money in a business environment), and I > feel the sweet spot for effort for today's web apps moving *away* from > PHP and into the land of web2py and it's kin. > > Of course, you might disagree with my points above, they are just > opinions, anyone can (and should) have them. As for bias, I know I'm > biased, I tend to get biased towards things that make my engineering > sense purr and generally make my life as a programmer easier :) I'm > sorry if I stepped on any toes, it wasn't my intention, just wanted to > share a few thoughts, sorry again if it got too rant-ish. > > > > On Oct 29, 9:41 pm, JorgeRpo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Well I havent used appcelerator either. >> >> But I found your opinion very personal and subjective. I am not going >> to argue your points at this time. >> >> You dont seem to be criticzicing appcelerator buth the logic behind >> its existence. >> >> So you dont agree neither with MS Silverlight, Mozilla Prism, Google >> GWT, and others. >> >> But those frameworks are here and its better to take advantage of them >> than to ignore them. >> >> On Oct 29, 9:54 am, achipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > <disclaimer> >> > I have not used appcelerator in any real life projects and just went >> > through the docs/tutorials/screencasts. I did use half a dozen web >> > oriented languages, frameworks and templating systems in the past ten >> > years. >> > </disclaimer> >> >> > Hate to be the Yin of all topics, but I find appceletator to be a bit >> > heavy on the buzz side. What I think is the worst error in the concept >> > is the Web Expression Language part. It somehow feels super cool and >> > super wrong to me at the same time. It reintroduces program logic in >> > places people were fighting years to get it out of, and doing it in an >> > unreadable form (as it pretends to be html for syntax purposes, which >> > is worse than any JS toolkit). This means two more things IMO - *real* >> > designers won't be able to touch it, and it will have a strong lock-in >> > factor as a design/UI made in it cannot be ported to any other >> > framework (which is why all the JS toolkits actually make sense as you >> > can adapt them to any underlying backend). 5 years ago I'd be super >> > impressed with appcelerator, but now it seems to me as an approach >> > with a dark side potential. Conceptually, it feels a lot like >> > (Open)Laszlo, also a super cool and simultaneously super wrong >> > approach. >> >> > On Oct 29, 2:04 pm, mdipierro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > > Thank you for your comments. >> >> > > I like appcelerator. I am reserving time over the christmas break to >> > > learn more about it. Something may happen. >> >> > > Massimo >> >> > > On Oct 29, 2:38 am, Dunsun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > > > Hi, >> >> > > > It would be great to integrate Appcelerator with web2py. >> > > > It would give us a superiority over all other frameworks. >> > > > Web2py is clearly the best framework for python and Appcelerator is >> > > > easy and very efficient way to add RIA and SOA to web2py. >> >> > > > Any plans for the future ? >> > > > Thank you. > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "web2py Web Framework" group. To post to this group, send email to web2py@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/web2py?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
