On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
> on 1/15/01 7:39 PM, "Rajiv Mordani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
> >
> >> on 1/15/01 3:09 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Of course, what you don't like is either "not proposed or agreed" or "not
> >>> justified " ( the -1 votes against you ) or "not agreed by the PMC".
> >>>
> >>> And what you want is "what the community want".
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Costin
> >>>
> >>> P.S. - ops, it seems you got me again - into answering. Sorry.
> >>
> >> Costin, this has been like you since I have known you. You are an excellent
> >> developer in that you can work on your own, but when it comes to working
> >> within a project or group of people where you need to ask the opinions of
> >> others and then take those seriously, I haven't seen you doing that at all.
> >
> > Maybe you should talk to Scott Boag et al from xalan dev team what they
> > think about how Costin works in a project before making such comments on a
> > public mailing list....
>
> Funny, I haven't seen a single posting from Costin on the Xalan-Dev mailing
> list since I joined in late November.
He has posted patches to Scott and that's exactly why I mentioned Scott's
name.. (I would cc him but since he is travelling this week and may not be
able to access email that frequently. I wouldn't want him to be flooded
with these mails). Also maybe you should look for
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and not [EMAIL PROTECTED] They are 2
different people as you have pointed out later in the mail..
Going through the archives I see the following
This one is early Nov so maybe you couldv'e missed it
http://archive.covalent.net/xml/xalan-dev/2000/11/0352.xml
However this is in Dec so either you aren't reading xalan-dev carefully or
you chose to ignore it..
http://archive.covalent.net/xml/xalan-dev/2000/12/0193.xml
>
> I also wouldn't categorize the Xalan project as a model project. Sure, it is
> developed well, but I haven't see much of the discussion going on with
> regards to following standard ASF project guidelines such simple things like
> as asking for a vote before doing a release. All I see is Paul Dick@Lotus
> doing announcements about releases. Where is the discussion happening?
In that case maybe as an asf member and a member of the board you should
help them understand the "ASF project guidelines".. But that's a whole
other discussion that we can have some other time..
>
> > Also Costin is the only one on 3.x tree from Sun. All the others are from
> > outside Sun. Just goes to show how WELL he works with a group of people
> > that aren't even geographically co-located..
>
> Actually, Costin is supposed to be outside of Sun with regards to Tomcat.
Thanks for correcting me on this...
>
> > As for the way the PMC works - I have had this discussion with James on
> > more than one occasion - the pmc incase of xml and jakarta unlike the
> > httpd project comprises of people who aren't the core developers... People
> > who aren't working on the project get to make the decisions. From what I
> > have heard the httpd on the other hand has the core developers as part of
> > the pmc. That is the way it should be.... Maybe this should also be an
> > issue that needs to be discussed in tomorrow's meeting....
>
> Tomorrows meeting does not cover the XML project, so bringing XML related
> stuff up here is moot.
Maybe you should read the mail carefully before being in a hurry to reply
to the mail... I have mentioned "xml AND jakarta pmc".. I think one of the
2 mentioned projects is meeting tomorrow?? Or atleast that's the
discussion that's happening here... Isn't it??
>
> However, lets look at PMC reality since you obviously aren't:
>
> Anil and Craig and James and Pier are all members of the Jakarta PMC and
> have commit access on the Tomcat project. That is also four votes from Sun
> alone. Remember, it only takes 3 votes to pass a proposal.
>
> In fact, I would argue that the Jakarta PMC is heavily biased towards Sun
> with 4 of the 7 people working for Sun including the PMC president.
The point isn't even about having Sun people. I am just saying that it
should consist of "core developers".. Jon you should read mails
carefully... If you really think that there is a community around tomcat
then you would never bring up the issue of being Sun biased etc... What's
your point here in ranting about Sun and it's employees??
>
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html>
>
> Given the fact that Sun also seems to control what people do and say on this
> mailing list, I think the *real* issue here very clear.
>
> At this point, I have lost confidence that the votes that Sun employees give
> on this list are actual representations of what the person giving those
> votes really believes in.
>
> Scared yet?
Of what??
- Rajiv
>
> >> You think that by fixing Tomcat 3.x to be re-factored code is a good thing.
> >> I agree. However, it doesn't fall in line with continuing the development
> >> indefinitely because major changes mean the potential for major bugs and
> >> further support issues as well as a split project's resources.
> >
>
> The history is what is important here. The fact of the matter is that if Sun
> had not donated Tomcat 3.x, we would already be using a much more complete
> Catalina as Craig had already started work on it and was pulled off from
> working on it in order to support 3.x development. The fact that Catalina is
> as far along as it is today is a testament to how amazing Craig is with
> regards to the amount of really quality code he can write.
> -jon
>
> --
> Honk if you love peace and quiet.
>
>
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