On 25.01.2013 09:29, Ole Nielsen / osm wrote:
On 21.01.2013 01:54, François Lacombe wrote:
May someone answers that question
power=station is used for large, fenced areas where high voltage is
transformed to medium voltage. In German: Umspannwerk
power=sub_station is used for smaller objects, like buildings with 2m each
side and a height of a few m, where medium voltage is transformed to low
voltage. In German: Trafohäuschen (or Trafostation)
That is a misunderstanding that was unfortunately introduced in the early
days of OSM. The creator of the 'station' tag, Bahnpirat, has admitted it
was a mistake, see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Power_lines#RFC_-_draft. In English as
substation is a substation never a 'station'. A 'power station' in English
is the same as a power plant! This leads to confusion among mappers
resulting in quite a few power plants tagged as 'stations' according to my
experience.
According to my dictionary, Umspannwerk = transformer station and Trafohaus
= transformer house. Looking up "transformer station", the distinction does
not seem as clear as in German, but after all, the term "station" does not
seem completely wrong. The tag power=station is just missing the word
"transformer". It should probably be renamed to power=transformer_station.
The term "substation" is missing in my dictionary. To me, it seems to be a
technical term (covering large transformer stations as well as transformer
houses), while in common English one would rather choose the terms
transformer station/house. Maybe some native speaker could clarify this.
It is possible to rename both tags, but this should be carefully done, with
3 crucial criteria to be met:
1) don't lose any information => don't shuffle transformer stations
(hitherto power=station) and transformer houses (hitherto power=sub_station)
together
2) update existing data
3) do it in a way that everybody can adjust to it
(3) means: Make a proposal for renaming both tags, and define a date for a
script run doing the renaming on the existing data. Leave hints in the wiki
for some time explaining what happened.
I have seen a lot of small 'Trafohäuschens' tagged as 'station'
(especially in the Netherlands) so the distinction is not that clear to
mappers.
This may be just a mistranslation like highway=bus_station where it should
be highway=bus_stop. English "station" = German "Bahnhof", while English
"station" = German "Station". This is why many bus stops are tagged
highway=bus_station in German speaking countries.
By looking at the Wiki (or using an editor with built-in translations) it
should be clear which tag to use. There are descriptions and photos, or at
least there should be.
Using voltage=* to indicate the catagory of substation is much
better.
No, because normal mappers don't know the voltage. What we call an
Umpannwerk looks completely diferent than a transformer house. An
Umspannwerk is much larger, is surrounded by a fence, and has lots of
visible technical stuff (like wires with big isolators). Everybody can
easily recognize them, but only specialists know the exact voltages.
No, it was rejected. It did not get enough votes.
The start of voting was never properly announced on this list. Maybe that
could explain the few votes. I only discovered the voting by accident.
Maybe it should be revived for a new vote?
Maybe. But don't expect a huge increase in the number of votes. This is
something very technical, and most people just don't feel qualified to judge
on this. Including me.
This is a consensus among 2 persons at best. This does not legitimate you
to
make vast changes to the Wiki. There should at least be a topic in the
wiki
talk page for some months.
Discussions about tagging are supposed to take place here, not on 'talk'.
I mean the talk page (= discussion page) in the Wiki, not the talk mailing list.
Ok, there has been some topic on it, but not really a discussion, and nobody
happened to present some vision on how so solve this.
I think you should first justify why 'station' is a correct tag (i.e. a
substation and not a power station).
- it has been defined in the Wiki for ages
- it is heavily in use
On 25.01.2013 10:29, Janko Mihelić wrote:
Problem with this is that you have to define the exact area that delimits a
big from a small substation, and the exact voltage. What about stations that
are big in area, but low in voltage? And vice-versa?
There is no need to define exact amounts, as these two kinds of objects look
so completely different! Just make a google images search for "umspannwerk"
and "trafohäuschen".
Or in OSM:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27795895
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/118639779
Anyway, area is obvious from the polygon you have drawn, and the exact
voltage can be written in the voltage=* tag. There is really no reason,
except the historic one, to categorize power substations with those tags.
See above. The voltage is not obvious to normal mappers.
P.S. In the wiki under the part about voltage=* it says: The highest voltage
of operation within the facility.
Wouldn't it be better to enumerate all voltages that are in use in that
station? Something like voltage=110;35;10
I suggest asking user aliponte, he is an expert on this.
On 25.01.2013 11:11, François Lacombe wrote:
2013/1/25 Andreas Labres <l...@lab.at>
Transformatorstationen (aka substation) look like this:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformatorenstation
Umspannwerke (aka power station) look like this:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Umspannwerk_01_KMJ.jpg
It's not that big a problem to distinguish.
Yes it is!
The second photo doesn't show a power station at all since there's no
generation facility on it.
Nobody said that it's a power station. It's what is used to be tagged as
power=station, that's the point.
It's only a place
whhttp://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed§Hdr=on&spellToler=&search=spezialistere
power is switched and transformed, just like the first photo.
So distinguishing is not only wrong but hard to establish.
Don't prentend that you don't see the difference. This is ridiculous.
On 25.01.2013 15:44, François Lacombe wrote:
The main problem is precisely the vocabulary used.
OSM tagging should respect current language, especillay when OSM terms refers
to totally different real life elements (plant taken for substation)
It should. But compatibility is also an issue. Just look at tags like
amenity=prison. You cannot change that by just dropping it in the Wiki.
After all, these tags are code words, similar to a programming language.
creat() in C is missing a letter, still it's written like this after 35 years.
On 25.01.2013 20:23, Ole Nielsen wrote:
But still I wouldn't recommend retagging without reviewing each substation
individually. In some areas the distinction between large and small substations
may have been tagged consistently. In my areas of interest (Denmark,
Netherlands) the use of 'station' was a big mess with the tag being put on
anything from small transformer buildings to big power plants.
It seems absurd to me to create workload where tagging was consistent with
the wiki in order to keep the mess where tagging was inconsistent.
=> If you rename the tags in the Wiki, rename them in the data too,
otherwise there will just be chaos.
--
Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
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