In the Psalm KJV contracting example, I'm not sure how you "choose your expansion". How do you know that verse 0 maps to verse 1 in the first instance, and 2 in the next? What if in the target versification, verse 0 is made of 1&2&3. What about the following examples:
*Example 1: Inverted verses * Versification X Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0@a Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0@b Psalm.51.3-21=Psalm.51.1-19 Versification Y Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0@b Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0@a Psalm.51.3-21=Psalm.51.1-19 *Example 2: different number of parts, back-loaded* Versification X Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0@a Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0@b,Psalm.51.0@c Psalm.51.3-21=Psalm.51.1-19 Versification Y Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0@a Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0@b Psalm.51.3=Psalm.51.0@c Psalm.51.3-21=Psalm.51.1-19 *Example 2: different number of parts, front-loaded* Versification X Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0@a,Psalm.51.0@b Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0@c Psalm.51.3-21=Psalm.51.1-19 Versification Y Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0@a Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0@b Psalm.51.3=Psalm.51.0@c Psalm.51.4-21=Psalm.51.2-19 And then you can have permutations of the above... There are probably more examples as well... In the above, we're only considering x verses on left = 1 verse+parts on right. You can have x verses on left + (x verses+parts) on right not sure if this makes much sense.. Difficult to follow and type clearly!!! Chris On 11 July 2013 16:58, Костя Маслюк <kostyamasl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 2013/7/11 Chris Burrell <ch...@burrell.me.uk> > >> I don't think an explicit superset is required. An implicit one yes. By >> that I mean that if you allow a versification X to map to the known KJV >> Versification with parts (say 'a' 'b', or 'firstSentence', >> 'secondSentence', etc. - i.e. arbitrary parts), then it means you can go >> from X to Y via the KJV without losing resolution. >> >> For the Psalms all I was intending to have is for example (taken example >> from memory for Leningrad - so might be the wrong psalm). >> >> Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0@a >> Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0@b >> Psalm.51.3-21=Psalm.51.1-19 >> >> Meaning Leningrad (left) maps to the KJV verses (right). The part >> suffixes are only used if you are going from Leningrad through the KJV to >> say Synodal. If the Synodal were to declare exactly the same breakdown as >> above, also using the parts @a and @b it would mean you could end go from >> Psalm.50.1 to Psalm.50.1 as opposed to Psalm.51.1=>Psalm.51.0=>Psalm.51.1-2 >> > > In current implementation there is some kind of backward translation > procedure. In cases where translation to KJV *contracts* verses, and then > it need to expand in destination v11n, i check of how KJV translate current > verse to source v11n and if there is expansion, i choose which verse i > should display. In other words it anyway will be > Psalm.51.1=>Psalm.51.0=>Psalm.51.1 > Psalm.51.2=>Psalm.51.0=>Psalm.51.2 > Psalm.51.3=>Psalm.51.1=>Psalm.51.3 > > Or maybe i loose something? > > > >> In the above, the superset of keys really is: >> Psalm.51.0@a, Psalm51.0@b, and Psalm.51.1, Psalm.51.2, etc. >> >> Yes but when i try to map this superset to another v11n, what i should > expect to get? > > Ps.51.0 + Ps.51.1 + Ps.51.2 - first entry > Ps.51.0 + Ps.51.1 + Ps.51.2 - also second > Ps.51.2 + Ps.51.3 - third, and so on for each module? > > > >> You could obviously chose more meaningful part names say: >> Psalm.51.1=Psalm.51.0@repentance-prayer >> Psalm.51.2=Psalm.51.0@bathsheba-intro >> >> Or obviously, just keep track somewhere of what those parts really mean >> in practice. >> >> I think in terms of displays, there are really many options. Two things >> I'm looking at: >> >> * warning the user if for some reason we're displaying more verse ranges >> than the original passage... In other words, if we've broken 1 range into >> 2, and therefore omitted displaying some verses (because they don't map to >> the original passage), then we warn the user to say "it's not an error, and >> you're not seeing everything on purpose). The alternative is to somehow >> decide to show the missing verses - and then the complication is where do >> you put the missing verse in the verse order. >> >> * warning the user if you're displaying a verse more than once (nice to >> tell the user, hey, because of versification issues, this verse shouldn't >> be there twice, but we think it's beneficial to display twice because it >> really does map to both source verses). >> >> >> * Absent verses, I'm leaving blank at the moment. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> On 10 July 2013 17:02, Костя Маслюк <kostyamasl...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Sorry, when i try to imagine your conception of 'superset', i found >>> verses scattered all around the room after translation procedure. Have you >>> any visual representation of what you would like to achieve in final, or >>> would you make such a table by your self? >>> >>> Should verses content be always equivalent in parallel view? >>> >>> What a text should fill the gaps? This is most confusing to me, module >>> simply does not contain corresponding content, haven't clue what it could >>> be... >>> >>> If we start to translating ListKey superset and displaying its content, >>> we can got long enough recursion, for example in Psalms, all the book will >>> be displayed when user request verse in chapter #3. >>> >>> >>> I have added rough draft of Parallel display with respect of av11n >>> mappings in BibleTime Mini: >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/11a3dvdz0yu8xf3/boundle.zip >>> >>> >>> >>> 2013/7/4 Troy A. Griffitts <scr...@crosswire.org> >>> >>> Hi guys. The questions that need answers in this thread are logically >>>> complex and are one of the reasons we haven't finalized any additions to >>>> the core SWORD library to support this-- though I greatly appreciate the >>>> contributions made by Костя. >>>> >>>> Take, for example our standard 4 Bible web display preset for "OT >>>> Scholar", at Daniel chapter 3, around veres 23: >>>> >>>> http://crosswire.org/study/**parallelstudy.jsp?del=all&add=** >>>> NASB&add=WLC&add=KJV&add=LXX&**key=Dan.3.23#cv<http://crosswire.org/study/parallelstudy.jsp?del=all&add=NASB&add=WLC&add=KJV&add=LXX&key=Dan.3.23#cv> >>>> >>>> How should this look? >>>> >>>> The problem, for the uninitiated, is that The Prayer of Azariah and the >>>> Song of the Three Jews in the LXX is inserted between what we traditionally >>>> think of as verses 23 and 24. This makes verse 24 in the KJV very different >>>> content than what should be verse 24 in the LXX (our current LXX displayed >>>> from the link above does not include Apocryphal content)-- verse 24 in the >>>> LXX being the first part of the Apocryphal content, thus verse 91 in the >>>> LXX picking back up where verse 24, in say the NASB (without the apocryphal >>>> insertion), continues. >>>> >>>> The web interface above always displays in windows of 1 chapter. Thus >>>> the user has asked for Chapter 3 of Daniel, centered on verse 23. >>>> >>>> There are a few questions to answer. >>>> >>>> What if they had asked for verse 24? >>>> >>>> What content do we show? >>>> >>>> Use case: The user is a protestant pastor, has chosen NASB as his >>>> primary Bible, and is interested in seeing the parallel verses to the NASB >>>> in the other texts. He is not interested in seeing apocryphal insertions. >>>> He primarily cares about the NASB and only glances at the content from the >>>> other modules when interested in seeing the parallel. >>>> >>>> This is how the web frontend, and all current SWORD based frontends >>>> *should* currently work with no code changes, with the v11n translation >>>> facilities currently designed in the engine. It uses the first module as >>>> the "master" and iterated its key and pulls the equivalent verses from the >>>> other modules. The current facility in the engine allows for: >>>> >>>> lxx->setKey(nasb->getKey()) >>>> >>>> resulting in the LXX being positioned to the equivalent verse (e.g., >>>> v91 from nasb v24)-- if translation tables (for example from Костя) were in >>>> place. >>>> >>>> But this use case, while likely the most dominant, is not the most >>>> scholarly. A scholar would likely wish to see a *superset* of all verses >>>> from all displayed parallel Bibles, inserting gaps where they should go in >>>> the other text which do not contain the verses. >>>> >>>> Not too hard to imagine, but what is the programmer-friendly API >>>> interface for this? Harder to imagine. You can't simply choose one of the >>>> modules to iterate. >>>> Possibly: >>>> >>>> ListKey superset; >>>> superset << kjv->getKey() << nasb->getKey() << lxx->getKey() << >>>> wlc->getKey(); >>>> >>>> then one could iterate the superset listkey. >>>> >>>> This would leave the work of figuring out where the gaps should go up >>>> to ListKey, or something in the translation system in VerseKey which backs >>>> ListKey. >>>> >>>> It's a complex problem, but we haven't even talked about the issue of >>>> reordered content. Sometime Romans 16:25-27a (obviously excluding the >>>> subscriptio) is located after Romans 14:23. This is an example of >>>> reordering. It doesn't give problems from our "chapter window display" >>>> because the reordering is across different chapters and you could still >>>> pick your poison from the 2 choices above for display logic, but what about >>>> display windows which allow more than a single chapter, like BibleDesktop? >>>> Now the question arises. If you've chosen to build a superset, where do the >>>> gaps go? You could reasonably add them to either place (after Romans 14:23 >>>> in the modules which don't include the doxology here or after Romans 16:24 >>>> for modules which don't include the doxology here). How do you decide? How >>>> should the program decide? >>>> >>>> Lot's of questions and input we all need to give and a working proof of >>>> concept for at least a single frontend before we commit to something for >>>> everyone to use in the engine. >>>> >>>> Obviously not a 1.7.x issue, but feel free to continue to give input. >>>> >>>> Troy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 07/04/2013 03:26 PM, David Haslam wrote: >>>> >>>>> And (for example) if you wish to query the whole of the JPS module >>>>> using book >>>>> names, it will not do to specify *Gen-Mal*. >>>>> >>>>> You'd need to remember that in the Tanakh, the last book is *II >>>>> Chronicles*. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> View this message in context: http://sword-dev.350566.n4.** >>>>> nabble.com/Versifications-and-**verse-order-tp4652697p4652712.**html<http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/Versifications-and-verse-order-tp4652697p4652712.html> >>>>> Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org >>>>> http://www.crosswire.org/**mailman/listinfo/sword-devel<http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel> >>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org >>>> http://www.crosswire.org/**mailman/listinfo/sword-devel<http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel> >>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org >>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org >> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >> > >
_______________________________________________ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
