Is there anyone on this forum that is able to remove me ? From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 2:22 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: main drain test
Has there even been a generally accepted correlation of a main drain test to a hydrant flow test? (Except static pressure). Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080<tel:860-535-2080> (ofc) 860-554-7054<tel:860-554-7054> (fax) 860-608-4559<tel:860-608-4559> (cell) On Sep 11, 2024 at 2:14 PM, <Chris Dorn<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: What C factor did you use for your underground piping? If the piping is old enough that it is not enamalined or internally coated ductile iron l then you should be using a c factor of no better than a 100 not 140. If there is significant corrosion in the underground then you may want to use an even worse C factor of 80. There could be build up in the underground piping that is restricting the flow and causing additional pressure loss through the underground line that you are not accounting for. Just a thought. Chris From: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 1:55 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: main drain test That’s how much you SHOULD have, or that’s how much you MUST have. Add the demand (pressure required) and your safety margin to figure out your expected pressure. If you’re starting with 87 psi and losing 29 psi for backflow and elevation, that leaves 58 psi. At 361 GPM, your 6” pipe should only be losing about 0.5 psi per 100 feet of pipe. So, you should probably be expecting more than 50 psi at your main drain if flowing the system demand (obviously I’m guessing at the configuration of your system). But even if you are actually flowing 750 GPM through your main drain test, 6” pipe only loses about 1.6 psi per 100 feet of pipe. I think the inspector might be onto something. That 37 psi doesn’t seem to jive. -Kyle M From: Rocci 3 Cetani <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 10:41 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: main drain test We lose 12 PSI for the backflow, a little more than 17 PSI for elevation. The calc says we should have about 45.5 PSI @ BOR on the 4th floor Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590 To help better serve you. Please visit our new and improved website at: www.norcalfire.com<http://www.norcalfire.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. From: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 10:03 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: main drain test From your previous reply: 6” feed in the stairwell with a 4” sectional and 2” drain Residual pressure is dropping 50 psi from the flow test to what you are seeing on the gauge in your main drain test. Flowing 361 GPM through 6” and some 4”? Even accounting for elevation pressure at the 4th floor, that seems like a LOT of pressure loss. Does that number make sense. When you run your calc what pressure do you expect to have at the base of riser? You said the required pressure is 45 psi, so add your safety margin to that and tell me what you expect to have. -Kyle M From: Rocci 3 Cetani <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:54 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [External][Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test MDT Static 62 (auto sprink says it should be 63.2 so its within a comfortable range) Residual- 37 Flow test Static 89 Residual 87 GPM 750 Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590 To help better serve you. Please visit our new and improved website at: www.norcalfire.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.norcalfire.com_&d=DwMFIw&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=hLXh1DXRDwJ3oz4y7iNesSsetYhUUV0wawfPGfwmYxQ&m=rjklku6TtnAsbkPAj0Ah9-6LzYkNBBee_Sg6UuXdYXmvRgQlJf4mKyA8eedysC5Q&s=FM5eVjZHgu24BkVkFLo76rDJOoTdYKlfL7O8cgDGBgo&e=> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:33 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test Sorry, I misstated something extremely important: I referred to residual pressure instead of PITOT pressure in my mention of theoretical flows. Management regrets the error and the committee has authorized a second cup of coffee. Steve L. From: Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:25 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: RE: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test Respectfully disagree that this is a slam-dunk misunderstanding. I have experienced two residual-pressure-at-BOR conflicts in my career and both went back to the water supply data. One of them had to do with a flow test that was taken from the address-side public main, but the system was supplied from a side street and it turned out that the POC was downstream of a regulating station installed at the branch to that leg of the system, so available pressure was 20 psi lower than the test data. The other had to do with a flow test taken by a third party contractor hired by the project owner, and they used an old riser gauge on the hydrant. Turns out that gauge was shot and the residual value was corrupt (reading high). When the water supply was tested again, the flow rate was nearly identical but the residual was 8 or 9 or 10 psi lower using a calibrated gauge with ÷1% error. As Chris noted, residual of 9-10 psi renders a theoretical flow equivalent to the demand through a 2” orifice per NFPA 291, Table 4.12.1(a), so the AHJ might be onto something. What is are the static and residual readings on the riser gauge during the MDT, and what were the flow test values? And memo to everyone citing NFPA 25, it is a requirement of NFPA 13, ∽29.2.3.4 that a main drain test be undertaken as part of acceptance testing. Steve L. From: Travis Mack <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:24 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test A main drain test does not correlate to a BOR demand. You have to flow the exact same demand to make them correlate. So just educate the inspector. This happens all the time in residential systems. Travis Mack, SET M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support 181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074 www.mepcad.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mepcad.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=hLXh1DXRDwJ3oz4y7iNesSsetYhUUV0wawfPGfwmYxQ&m=ak88D-Fbuok5cqKxOL10fhK7rcEnUaYjg1aoYAJsRALJc0o65sBATxsNQhgr3Ej7&s=Arl_dm6gvc2m17hVq2LdbEtEDah-b7aM-wnbe-D3AYs&e=> | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348 Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> AutoSPRINK | AutoSPRINK FAB | AutoSPRINK RVT | AlarmCAD ________________________________ From: Rocci 3 Cetani <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:07 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test Demand is 361 gpm with 45 PSI @ BOR. Main drain test they are getting 37 residual Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590 To help better serve you. Please visit our new and improved website at: www.norcalfire.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.norcalfire.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=hLXh1DXRDwJ3oz4y7iNesSsetYhUUV0wawfPGfwmYxQ&m=ak88D-Fbuok5cqKxOL10fhK7rcEnUaYjg1aoYAJsRALJc0o65sBATxsNQhgr3Ej7&s=-fKDxPy7MHNO47roQeJIyEkbYU5O6fDF5MByTDMROa0&e=> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 7:55 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test Assuming that the demand from the calc area is for OH 1or 2 (and no inside hose), your demand is somewhere between 250 and 300 gpm If you modeled a full 1,500 sq ft, no? And what is the residual pressure required? Steve Leyton Sent from my "Smart" Phone, so apologies for any typos or voice-to-text corruptions. -------- Original message -------- From: Rocci 3 Cetani <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Date: 9/11/24 7:19 AM (GMT-08:00) To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] main drain test We have a jurisdiction that failed our final inspection because the residual pressure during the main drain test doesn’t match our BOR residual pressure from the hydraulic calcs for and OH extended coverage system. Am I missing something? I don’t see how the residual pressure on a main drain test has anything to do with the residual pressure from our calcsˇ..I was always under the impression main drain tests were to verify there hasn’t been a been a drastic change to the supply . This was an existing parking garage where they added solar panels on the top level so we added a sectional riser @ the top floor and added the new system. The fire department just keeps saying to upsize the riser from the 1st floor to the 4th floor which literally does nothing to my calcs. The building owner has spent 10’s of thousands of dollars flushing the UG, inspecting the UG for obstructions, paid for additional flow test and serviced the back flow. We are at a complete loss on what else to do as the fire department is adamant that’s the main drain test has to match the hydraulic calcsˇ..anyone ever come across a situation like this with a jurisdiction? Any suggestions? Rocci Cetani III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590 To help better serve you. 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