[Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test

[Chase Brockinton]

Just another thought. Is it possible that the designer used the pressure required at the source as the BOR? That could be the reason for the reason for the pressure difference.  Chase On Sep 11, 2024, at 1:03 PM, Rocci 3 Cetani <roc...@norcalfire.com> wrote:  Upper floor   Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III     Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590   To help better serve you. Please visit our new and improved website at: www.norcalfire.com   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents.   From: Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:58 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test   Are you measuring at the base of the main building riser or on an upper floor?   From: Rocci 3 Cetani <roc...@norcalfire.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:54 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test   MDT Static 62 (auto sprink says it should be 63.2 so its within a comfortable range) Residual-  37   Flow test Static 89 Residual 87 GPM 750 Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III     Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590   To help better serve you. Please visit our new and improved website at: www.norcalfire.com   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents.   From: Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:33 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test   Sorry, I misstated something extremely important:  I referred to residual pressure instead of PITOT pressure in my mention of theoretical flows.   Management regrets the error and the committee has authorized a second cup of coffee.   Steve L.     From: Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:25 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test   Respectfully disagree that this is a slam-dunk misunderstanding.   I have experienced two residual-pressure-at-BOR conflicts in my career and both went back to the water supply data.   One of them had to do with a  flow test that was taken from the address-side public main, but the system was supplied from a side street and it turned out that the POC was downstream of a regulating station installed at the branch to that leg of the system, so available pressure was 20 psi lower than the test data.   The other had to do with a flow test taken by a third party contractor hired by the project owner, and they used an old riser gauge on the hydrant.   Turns out that gauge was shot and the residual value was corrupt (reading high).   When the water supply was tested again, the flow rate was nearly identical but the residual was 8 or 9 or 10 psi lower using a calibrated gauge with ≤1% error.    As Chris noted, residual of 9-10 psi renders a theoretical flow equivalent to the demand through a 2” orifice per NFPA 291, Table 4.12.1(a), so the AHJ might be onto something.   What is are the static and residual readings on the riser gauge during the MDT, and what were the flow test values?  And memo to everyone citing NFPA 25, it is a requirement of NFPA 13, §29.2.3.4 that a main drain test be undertaken as part of acceptance testing.     Steve L.   From: Travis Mack <t.m...@mepcad.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:24 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test   A main drain test does not correlate to a BOR demand.  You have to flow the exact same demand to make them correlate.  So just educate the inspector.  This happens all the time in residential systems.     Travis Mack, SET M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support 181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074 www.mepcad.com | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348 Email: t.m...@mepcad.com   AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD   From: Rocci 3 Cetani <roc...@norcalfire.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:07 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test     Demand is 361 gpm  with 45 PSI @ BOR. Main drain test they are getting 37  residual Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III     Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590   To help better serve you. Please visit our new and improved website at: www.norcalfire.com   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents.   From: Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 7:55 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: main drain test   Assuming that the demand from the calc area is for OH 1or 2 (and no inside hose), your demand is somewhere between 250 and 300 gpm If you modeled a full 1,500 sq ft, no? And what is the residual pressure required?     Steve Leyton   Sent from my "Smart" Phone, so apologies for any typos or voice-to-text corruptions.       -------- Original message -------- From: Rocci 3 Cetani <roc...@norcalfire.com> Date: 9/11/24 7:19 AM (GMT-08:00) To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [Sprinklerforum] main drain test   We have a jurisdiction that failed our final inspection because the residual pressure during the main drain test doesn’t match our BOR residual pressure from the hydraulic calcs for and OH extended coverage system.  Am I missing something? I don’t see how the residual pressure on a main drain test has anything to do with the residual pressure  from our calcs…..I was always under the impression main drain tests were to verify there hasn’t been a been a drastic change to the supply . This was an existing parking garage where they added solar panels on the top level so we added a sectional riser @ the top floor and added the new system. The fire department just keeps saying to upsize the riser from the 1st floor to the 4th floor which literally does nothing to my calcs. The building owner has spent 10’s of thousands of dollars flushing the UG, inspecting the UG for obstructions, paid for additional flow test  and serviced the back flow.  We are at a complete loss on what else to do as the fire department is adamant that’s the main drain test has to match the hydraulic calcs…..anyone ever come across a situation like this with a jurisdiction? Any suggestions?   Rocci Cetani III   Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590   To help better serve you. Please visit our new and improved website at: www.norcalfire.com   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents.   _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org

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