Huh? Are they required by… a loose cannon EOR? The AHJ? Codes and standards?
James – how many stories is this building? Are these two-story apartments within a multi-story building that’s taller than two stories? Not that it matters, but what floor is the main entry for these units? Here’s the thing – NFPA 14 and the IBC codes (also state codes based on IBC, such as California) require a standpipe hose connection on each level (main or intermediate) of every required exit stair. Interior stairs within multi-story dwelling units (even in a multi-story building) are not exit stairs as defined by the building code. So if the context of the question is whether these valves are required by code, the answer is unconditionally NO. Assuming the AHJ agrees with that take (implied by their approval), then simply capitulating to this EOR is going to eff up the dwelling units big time. Is this person also requiring the 44” egress pathway clearance on those stairs? THAT’S a question that should grind their gears to a stop, because you cannot safely (or aesthetically) locate a standpipe hose connection in a 36-42” wide condo stairwell. Also ask this oracle of fire protection systems how he/she would prescribe piping to these valves – are the units stacked so that one riser could serve a valve per unit or are they horizontally arrayed and the valves supplied by branch lines? Keeping in mind that if two or more are supplied by a horizontal pipe then it becomes a horizontal standpipe? No matter the configuration, how does the EOR propose that the standpipe serving these connections be protected by construction equal to what’s required for the exit stairway if the stairways in question aren’t fire rated? In a midrise building the stair shafts have to be 2-hour but dwelling unit envelopes are only 1-hour? Go ahead and ask the GC to craft THAT RFI: “Please confirm that two-story townhome units must be 2-hour construction to protect standpipe(s).” Just giving in because they offer to pay you is going to open a Pandora’s Box of issues if the building and fire officials know the nuances of IBC 905 and NFPA 14. I would write a summary of the holes in this groundless opinion and then inform the GC and owner that the impact of this additive change is delay, cost and potentially impeachment of the approved building construction type. That should turn the conversation. The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard. It also reflects that I’m getting pretty sick and tired of the self-annointed experts in our industry that don’t know what they’re talking about. Protection Design and Consulting Steve Leyton, President T | 619.255.8964 x 102 | www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/> 2851 Camino Del Rio South | Suite 210 | San Diego, CA 92108 Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2024 5:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Hose Valves in Townhome Apartments Yes. The EOR said so after the fact.. Price the change, add the valves. R/ Matt Please rate our customer service<https://survey.medallia.com/?emailsignature&fc=3539&bg=Fire%20and%20Fabrication> Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET Engineering Manager – Southwest Region FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC 3508 Hwy. 557 West Monroe, LA. 71292 C: 307-236-8249 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> www.FergusonFire.com<http://www.fergusonfire.com/> From: James Litvak <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2024 7:55 AM To: AFSA Sprinkler Forum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Hose Valves in Townhome Apartments Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender. ________________________________ I am designing an NFPA 13 mid-rise apartment building that includes three townhome-style two-floor apartments. The EOR put a note on the FP plans to locate a hose valve on each floor of those units "AS REQUIRED." I didn't put them on my plans because I have never seen them required in similar units in other buildings. The EOR's review comments came back saying "Fire Protection permit review indicated hose valves required in 2-story units." I have requested the fire protection permit review comments and was told by the GC it is unlikely we'll receive them, and that I should just include those valves. My plans were approved by the AHJ without those valves. It is the EOR now refusing to accept my plans without the valves. Are those valves required?
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