The AHJ and insurer should also approve the selection Steve, if you want liability dilution, and often more accurate solutions, then crowdsource your stakeholders. I give free seminars on how to falsifiably and numerically document this crowdsourced risk assessment. I shared the same with SFPE Fire Risk Assessment seminar instructor Bill Koffel when receiving his training. He and his assistant said they would use pieces of this advice, but did not share exactly what pieces.
As mentioned in some of my previous threads, the hard part is getting the historical fire data on the occupancy in question. Not enough open, honest and simple sharing of information. In safety, there should be no secrets. In reality, it is a nasty free-for-all out here :-) What are the incentives for openly and honestly and sharing information simply? Ask Julian Assaange, Daniel Hale, Steven Donziger ... But with open, honest sharing of information within a simple format (the first 2 are guaranteed in the US Constitution), we can make more accurate guesses. And safety is guessing. Full stop. As for my guessing, almost to the person, those who disdain using the word 'guessing' in the safety profession are over paid. NFPA and SFPE should include new categories when soliciting and documenting fire information (e.g. NFIRS, etc.) The number of occupancies in a jurisdiction is a big (and unasked) part of the solution to Steve's question. His question did not specifically ask, " What is the likelihood of fire control by OH2, EH1, etc. ?" His question was more to "are there any examples of an OH2 controlling fires in shoes..." Just looking for one answer, one example, one fire... is insufficient. Good guessing considers sufficiently large sample spaces, the bias and the variance in the said sample spaces... If the sample population is not identified with the guess, the answer is a mess, arguably negligent from a professional perspective and the variance in the answer increases exponentially. Sample spaces being equal, guessing quickly gets more accurate when Subject Matter Experts dominate the stakeholder quorum, but there are many good lay persons whose opinions and insights into local risk tolerance, local resource reliability, local climatic conditions, etc... will provide invaluable insight into the ultimate judgment-with-uncertainty. And judgment-with-uncertainty (in the terminology of some overpaid professionals) by any other name, is simply guessing. Scot Deal Excelsior Risk and Safety La semplicità è la sofisticatezza finale - da vince On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:20 PM John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum < [email protected]> wrote: > Whatever the engineer of the record is requiring. See the SFPE position > statement 20-1. This is not a simple answer. > > The AHJ and insurer should also approve the selection > > Thanks, > John > > > *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee > Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no > liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be > considered the official position of the **AFSA, and/or NFPA or its > technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering > services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied > upon, as such.* > > Thanks, > John > > John August Denhardt, PE > *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > m: p: 301-343-1457 > 214-349-5965 ext 121 > w: firesprinkler.org > <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/> > <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> > < > https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/ > > > <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/> > > *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.* > > > *Are you a member with a technical question? * > > Don't forget one of the most valuable resources that the American Fire > Sprinkler Association provides is technical reviews from our Engineering & > Technical Services Department. It’s like having an FPE on your staff. Visit > www.firesprinkler.org/interp > < > https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Contacts/Sign_In.aspx?WebsiteKey=3dff22a3-0306-479c-bccc-7aa1986c8ada&LoginRedirect=true&returnurl=/WWW/Technical_Services/Informal_Interpretations/WWW/Informal_Interpret/Member_View.aspx?hkey=8023e65f-a2ad-4465-9920-0f9313a07324 > > > to > submit a question today! > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 3:52 PM Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Whatever the designer of record wants. > > > > Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE > > *Coordinator, Engineering and Technical Services* > > > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > > p: 214-349-5971 > > w: firesprinkler.org > > <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/> > > <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> > > < > > > https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/ > > > > > <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/> > > > > > > *Are you a member with a technical question? * > > > > Don't forget one of the most valuable resources that American Fire > > Sprinkler Association provides is technical reviews from our Engineering > & > > Technical Services Department. It’s like having an FPE on your staff. > Visit > > www.firesprinkler.org/interp > > < > > > https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Contacts/Sign_In.aspx?WebsiteKey=3dff22a3-0306-479c-bccc-7aa1986c8ada&LoginRedirect=true&returnurl=/WWW/Technical_Services/Informal_Interpretations/WWW/Informal_Interpret/Member_View.aspx?hkey=8023e65f-a2ad-4465-9920-0f9313a07324 > > > > > to > > submit a question today! > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 12:51 PM Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Whatever the fire official wants. > > > > > > SL > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 12:50 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Cc: Spencer Tomlinson <[email protected]>; Steve Leyton < > > > [email protected]> > > > Subject: RE: Shoe store complications > > > > > > I would assume that there are tons of these that exist with OH2 > sprinkler > > > designs. Are there any examples of fires in any of those and > information > > > about whether the fire was controlled or overwhelmed the sprinklers? If > > the > > > theory says it should be protected like Group A plastics, but the > history > > > shows that OH2 has proven sufficient, then what do you do? > > > > > > -Kyle M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> > On > > > Behalf Of Spencer Tomlinson via Sprinklerforum > > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:04 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Cc: Spencer Tomlinson <[email protected]>; Steve Leyton < > > > [email protected]> > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Shoe store complications > > > > > > I have worked with a very large insurer of mall properties that treats > > the > > > commodity class of any shoe store as storage of Group A unexpanded > > > plastics, at whatever height, etc., that applies. > > > > > > Spencer Tomlinson, PE > > > Owner, Fire Protection Engineer > > > > > > > > > Ph: 316-202-6412 > > > Fax: 316-202-2346 > > > Cell: 620-955-7293 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> > On > > > Behalf Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum > > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:59 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Cc: Steve Leyton <[email protected]> > > > Subject: Shoe store complications > > > > > > Has anyone got any experience with design or classification of a > discount > > > shoe store that displays shoes in 8' shelving units? These are > particle > > > board, storage to 10', with shoes on attachments to the front of the > > > shelving units and densely packed boxes with stock in the shelving. > > > Today's shoes can be made of textile or leather uppers, but more and > > more > > > the inventory is characterized by synthetic materials, often nylon and > > > polyester materials. Except for traditional dress shoes that may > still > > > have wood or leather soles, most shoes have various densities of foam > > > layers for inner and middle soles, with rubber outer soles. > > > > > > Classifying the mix is challenging because of fast inventory turn-over, > > > especially the discount chains. Not all are using the taller > fixtures, > > > but many do and we've got fire officials asking for protection of > stored > > > plastics. I can't really impeach that finding since the stores aren't > > able > > > to state equivocally what shoes will be in stock at any time. We're > > > assessing a format that's moving into a retail shell that was a > > Walgreen's > > > store and will now be discount shoes with the aforementioned 10' of > > storage > > > and a 25' deck height (an existing mezzanine is being demolished so > roof > > is > > > high for a standalone retail pad). Seems to me that Chapter 20 is > the > > > way to go and I'd value feedback or additional info it anyone's got > > > something to offer. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Steve Leyton, President > > > Protection Design and Consulting > > > T | 619.255.8964 x 102 | > > > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.protectiondesign.com&d=DwIFAw&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=cKGNzEOqtLu9spkm42kD9eVGA5WtFI8oARrHH0m-SyCbn0kCX7pIFhAk_zydkGeB&s=UCRVIIqu4Op0eXLcV4o2_0u-dFnahjOclK5zGCvxS0w&e= > > > < > > > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.protectiondesign.com_&d=DwIFAw&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=cKGNzEOqtLu9spkm42kD9eVGA5WtFI8oARrHH0m-SyCbn0kCX7pIFhAk_zydkGeB&s=4aJnC4OJpc1QrHQX2HNNcig86dGV5INX7yYj7HDAJCU&e= > > > > > > > 2851 Camino Del Rio South | Suite 210 | San Diego, CA 92108 Fire > > > Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIFAw&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=cKGNzEOqtLu9spkm42kD9eVGA5WtFI8oARrHH0m-SyCbn0kCX7pIFhAk_zydkGeB&s=Uph4KkSswfWfRZn_CTml0WdAGdoOAhI1M1WR_kudugI&e= > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIFAw&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=cKGNzEOqtLu9spkm42kD9eVGA5WtFI8oARrHH0m-SyCbn0kCX7pIFhAk_zydkGeB&s=Uph4KkSswfWfRZn_CTml0WdAGdoOAhI1M1WR_kudugI&e= > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
