Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:44:59PM -0400, George N. White III wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 18:48, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > > > Tim via users writes: > > > > > Sam Varshavchik: > > > > Sadly, I expect that Fedora at some point will become exclusively > > > > Gnome and KDE, because only these st

Re: Wayland and Xfce

George N. White III writes: On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 23:18, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com> wrote: George N. White III writes: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 18:48, Sam Varshavchik mrsam@courier- > http://mta.com>mta.com>mailto

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 23:18, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > George N. White III writes: > > > On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 18:48, Sam Varshavchik < mrsam@courier- > > mta.com>mr...@courier-mta.com> wrote: > > > > > >Tim via users writes: > > > >> Sam Varshavchik: > >> > Sadly, I expect that Fedo

Re: Wayland and Xfce

George N. White III writes: On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 18:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com> wrote: Tim via users writes: > Sam Varshavchik: > > Sadly, I expect that Fedora at some point will become exclusively > > Gnome and KDE, because only th

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 18:48, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Tim via users writes: > > > Sam Varshavchik: > > > Sadly, I expect that Fedora at some point will become exclusively > > > Gnome and KDE, because only these stacks will support Wayland, in > > > order to ditch X, and also target the same user

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Tim via users writes: Sam Varshavchik: > Sadly, I expect that Fedora at some point will become exclusively > Gnome and KDE, because only these stacks will support Wayland, in > order to ditch X, and also target the same userbase. This won't > happen anytime soon, but it will happen. I'm still n

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 04:46:16PM -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote: [ ] I am a technical user. I've been using Linux since Redhat 5. I've used many different window managers and I was skeptical about the big Gnome 3 change, but I tried it out. I think I switched from KDE at that time. I'm *ver

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 05:30, Tim via users wrote: > On Tue, 2022-01-11 at 08:49 -0400, George N. White III wrote: > > Complaining that Gnome is horrible only serves to trash the > > reputation of linux and linux users. > > It wouldn't get the complaints if it weren't... > > And for a tangential

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Tue, 2022-01-11 at 08:49 -0400, George N. White III wrote: > Complaining that Gnome is horrible only serves to trash the > reputation of linux and linux users. It wouldn't get the complaints if it weren't... And for a tangential example, it wasn't the people complaining about the crappiness o

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Tim, >> Yeah, right. Slowly opening menus, slowly spinning desktop cubes, >> hover and wait before continuing, splash screens and other >> animations that delay me doing something "make it work better"? Sam Varshavchik: > I agree. Having said that: if Gnome wants to target the power user, > with

Re: Wayland and Xfce

George N. White III writes: > Much of Fedora is user developed.  So this need not be the case.  It is  > clear from what I read over in Xfce-land that better tools are needed.  > Probably to even better migrate Gnome and KDE to Wayland. > > This is a bigger change than systemd and

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/11/22 05:18, Sam Varshavchik wrote: I use the Windows 10 generally. I briefly poked the tires on the current, default Gnome desktop in Ubuntu, last year. There were some claims that Windows is moving closer to Gnome's UI paradigms, but I just didn't see that. Perhaps that was referring to

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 18:39, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Robert Moskowitz writes: > > > On 1/11/22 07:15, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > >> > >> Sadly, I expect that Fedora at some point will become exclusively Gnome > and > >> KDE, because only these stacks will support Wayland, in order to ditch > X, >

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Robert Moskowitz writes: On 1/11/22 07:15, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Sadly, I expect that Fedora at some point will become exclusively Gnome and KDE, because only these stacks will support Wayland, in order to ditch X, and also target the same userbase. This won't happen anytime soon, but it

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 09:20, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > > > On 1/11/22 07:15, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > > Tim via users writes: > > > >> Tim: > >> >> I find this just crazy. Why should just the desktop interface > >> >> require a beefy graphics card? I use Mate because of that > >> >> silliness.

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/11/22 07:15, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Tim via users writes: Tim: >> I find this just crazy.  Why should just the desktop interface >> require a beefy graphics card?  I use Mate because of that >> silliness. Samuel Sieb: > It doesn't need to be beefy.  Pretty much any video card made in th

Re: Wayland and Xfce

George N. White III writes: One advantage of linux is that you can choose a UI you like and stick with it for years.   Complaining that Gnome is horrible only serves to trash the reputation of linux and linux users.  What would be more helpful is some insight into use cases (e.g., ancient hardwa

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/11/22 04:53, Tim via users wrote: Tim: If a graphical user interface needs instructions to be usable, it's failed in its creation. The whole point of having such an interface is that you can see what's on offer, and how to use it. Samuel Sieb: Are you trying to tell me that if I gave a

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 01:57, Samuel Sieb wrote: > On 1/10/22 19:10, Tim via users wrote: > > On Mon, 2022-01-10 at 14:07 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote: > >> Gnome really isn't intended for those systems anyway. Gnome-shell > >> requires a reasonable 3d-capable video card to run well. I have a > >>

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Tue, 2022-01-11 at 07:15 -0500, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Sadly, I expect that Fedora at some point will become exclusively > Gnome and  > KDE, because only these stacks will support Wayland, in order to > ditch X,  > and also target the same userbase. This won't happen anytime soon, > but it 

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Tim via users writes: Tim: >> I find this just crazy. Why should just the desktop interface >> require a beefy graphics card? I use Mate because of that >> silliness. Samuel Sieb: > It doesn't need to be beefy. Pretty much any video card made in the > last 10 years should work. Since the ca

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Samuel Sieb writes: On 1/10/22 17:38, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Someone who's already used traditional desktop environments, with desktop shortcut icons, a taskbar (on top or the bottom), with something that looks like a "Start" menu, a tray, a pager, and a few other familiar UI icons – someo

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Tim: >> I find this just crazy. Why should just the desktop interface >> require a beefy graphics card? I use Mate because of that >> silliness. Samuel Sieb: > It doesn't need to be beefy. Pretty much any video card made in the > last 10 years should work. Since the capability is there, why n

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Tim: >> If a graphical user interface needs instructions to be usable, it's >> failed in its creation. The whole point of having such an >> interface is that you can see what's on offer, and how to use it. Samuel Sieb: > Are you trying to tell me that if I gave a system running Mate to > someone

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 19:19, Tim via users wrote: Sam Varshavchik: Someone who's already used traditional desktop environments, with desktop shortcut icons, a taskbar (on top or the bottom), with something that looks like a "Start" menu, a tray, a pager, and a few other familiar UI icons – someone like tha

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 19:10, Tim via users wrote: On Mon, 2022-01-10 at 14:07 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote: Gnome really isn't intended for those systems anyway. Gnome-shell requires a reasonable 3d-capable video card to run well. I have a bunch of old P4 computers in a school for students to use. I set the

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 22:19, Tim via users wrote: Back to Gnome, I'd like to know just who thought redesigning the interface of a desktop computer to use the design of a touchscreen device, was a good idea. Very few desktop systems have touchscreens. Page after page of virtually randomly assorted icons (

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 22:10, Tim via users wrote: On Mon, 2022-01-10 at 14:07 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote: Gnome really isn't intended for those systems anyway. Gnome-shell requires a reasonable 3d-capable video card to run well. I have a bunch of old P4 computers in a school for students to use. I set t

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Sam Varshavchik: >> Someone who's already used traditional desktop environments, with >> desktop shortcut icons, a taskbar (on top or the bottom), with >> something that looks like a "Start" menu, a tray, a pager, and a >> few other familiar UI icons – someone like that should be able to >> hit the

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Mon, 2022-01-10 at 14:07 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote: > Gnome really isn't intended for those systems anyway. Gnome-shell > requires a reasonable 3d-capable video card to run well. I have a > bunch of old P4 computers in a school for students to use. I set > them up with Mate which works great

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 17:38, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Someone who's already used traditional desktop environments, with desktop shortcut icons, a taskbar (on top or the bottom), with something that looks like a "Start" menu, a tray, a pager, and a few other familiar UI icons – someone like that should be ab

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Samuel Sieb writes: On 1/10/22 15:50, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Oh, and how would a user discover what those useful keyboard shortcuts are? At this point, the basic UI elements are instinctively known to everyone. Everyone knows what an icon does, how menus look like, etc… Does a majority pe

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 18:50, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Samuel Sieb writes: I'm going to add a disclaimer: I haven't looked into the state of the Gnome world in a number of years. Perhaps things have moved closer to the pre-Gnome 3 state. But I doubt it. The day job uses Ubuntu, and a year ago I was due f

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 15:50, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Samuel Sieb writes: I'm going to add a disclaimer: I haven't looked into the state of the Gnome world in a number of years. Perhaps things have moved closer to the pre-Gnome 3 state. But I doubt it. The day job uses Ubuntu, and a year ago I was due for

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Samuel Sieb writes: I'm going to add a disclaimer: I haven't looked into the state of the Gnome world in a number of years. Perhaps things have moved closer to the pre- Gnome 3 state. But I doubt it. The day job uses Ubuntu, and a year ago I was due for a new laptop, so they shipped me a bra

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 14:48, Sam Varshavchik wrote: George N. White III writes: I don't think that is a realistic description of the effort that goes into DE designs. Linux developers have to have a target class of users in mind, and also try to make it easy for users to migrate from Apple and Microso

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Robert Moskowitz writes: I did not like the slowness and complexity of Gnome3 and have no idea which way it has gone since those first Fedora versions that used it.  At times I complain about Xfce, but most are minor or I have to learn a new tweak. I found the Xfce community to be very frie

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Robert Moskowitz writes: https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap Though I was told on the Xfce user list that there is no current work on this roadmap. I am not surprised. It's hard for me to come up with a value-added benefit from Wayland that's visible to the end user. Oh, I'm sure

Re: Wayland and Xfce

George N. White III writes: I don't think that is a realistic description of the effort that goes into DE designs. Linux developers have to have a target class of users in mind, and also try to make it easy for users to migrate from Apple and Microsoft DE's. I agree. Now, it would be inter

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 13:58, Robert Moskowitz wrote: And in all fairness, I jettisoned Gnome after some time with v3 and how slow it was making my old systems.  I had started working with Xfce on Fedora-arm on 32bit Allwinner chips.  So I made the switch on my main notebook and have not even looked at Gno

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 16:16, Samuel Sieb wrote: On 1/10/22 06:31, Tom Horsley wrote: On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 10:01:22 -0400 George N. White III wrote: Linux developers have to have a target class of users in mind Yes, a completely imaginary class of users they invent in their head to justify whatever ins

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 06:31, Tom Horsley wrote: On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 10:01:22 -0400 George N. White III wrote: Linux developers have to have a target class of users in mind Yes, a completely imaginary class of users they invent in their head to justify whatever insanity they decide they want to implement

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 09:31, Tom Horsley wrote: On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 10:01:22 -0400 George N. White III wrote: Linux developers have to have a target class of users in mind Yes, a completely imaginary class of users they invent in their head to justify whatever insanity they decide they want to implemen

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 10:01:22 -0400 George N. White III wrote: > Linux developers have to have a target class of users in mind Yes, a completely imaginary class of users they invent in their head to justify whatever insanity they decide they want to implement, so when people object they can say, "

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 at 07:52, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Joe Zeff writes: > > > On 1/8/22 9:03 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > >> > >> One cute comment I saw that Xfce will have to be called 'E', as it is > no > >> longer 'fc' and once it jettisons X, well... > > > > Xfce hasn't stood for anything in

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/10/22 06:52, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Joe Zeff writes: On 1/8/22 9:03 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: One cute comment I saw that Xfce will have to be called 'E', as it is no longer 'fc' and once it jettisons X, well... Xfce hasn't stood for anything in particular for many years now. Wh

Re: Wayland and Xfce

Joe Zeff writes: On 1/8/22 9:03 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: One cute comment I saw that Xfce will have to be called 'E', as it is no longer 'fc' and once it jettisons X, well... Xfce hasn't stood for anything in particular for many years now. Which is precisely the reason why xfce is a b

Re: Wayland and Xfce

On 1/8/22 9:03 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: One cute comment I saw that Xfce will have to be called 'E', as it is no longer 'fc' and once it jettisons X, well... Xfce hasn't stood for anything in particular for many years now. ___ users mailing list