Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/07/2014 12:14 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 6, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Getting rid of all the NFSv3 junk by default I think is valid. This would mean to lock out many professional use-cases and restrict Fedora-deployment to amateurish use-cases. Right, amateurish

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Bob Marcan wrote: > It is not a problem how and when the MTA is installed. > It was announced in release notes. > I'm afraid where this all is heading. > Which rug will be pulled out from my feet next time? > Linux is NOT a desktop, it is ALSO desktop. > Well

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 12:58:41 -0800 Joe Zeff wrote: > On 01/06/2014 10:37 AM, Pete Travis wrote: > > That said, I don't think that the few people passionately advocating a > > default MTA here have introduced anything that wasn't said in the Change > > proposal discussion. Isn't there a better us

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/06/2014 10:37 AM, Pete Travis wrote: That said, I don't think that the few people passionately advocating a default MTA here have introduced anything that wasn't said in the Change proposal discussion. Isn't there a better use for all this energy? Sorry for replying so late, but I've bee

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 6, 2014, at 11:37 AM, Pete Travis wrote: > Isn't there a better use for all this energy? Yes if they want to keep crying about it, throw a formal wake. At least there'd be booze. Chris Murphy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription o

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 6, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > >> Getting rid of all the NFSv3 junk by default I think is valid. > This would mean to lock out many professional use-cases and restrict > Fedora-deployment to amateurish use-cases. Right, amateurish cases like pNFS and something that's a

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 6, 2014 12:36 PM, "Bob Marcan" wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 11:37:26 -0700 > Pete Travis wrote: > > > > > > Libnotify works will all the DEs I've used, and there should be - if the DE > > is behaving properly - a way to make notifications persistent until > > acknowledged. > > > > That sa

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 19:09:00 +0100 Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 01/05/2014 02:27 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > > On Jan 4, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Marko Vojinovic > > wrote: > > >> But since we are bashing around about unnecessary default > >> services, one set of services that I would actually like to

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 11:37:26 -0700 Pete Travis wrote: > > Libnotify works will all the DEs I've used, and there should be - if the DE > is behaving properly - a way to make notifications persistent until > acknowledged. > > That said, I don't think that the few people passionately advocating a

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 6:37 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: > It's obviously a matter of opinion, not fact, as evidenced by the lack of > universal agreement by fairly reasonable people. I think email is such > amazing piles of steaming poo that my happiness is inversely proportional to > the number/r

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 6, 2014 3:39 AM, "Bob Marcan" wrote: > > On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 07:48:29 +0100 > "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > > > On 01/06/2014 07:37 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > It's obviously a matter of opinion, not fact, as evidenced by the lack of universal agreement by fairly reasonable people. I thi

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/05/2014 02:27 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 4, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: But since we are bashing around about unnecessary default services, one set of services that I would actually like to see removed is the NFS stack (nfs, nfslock, portmap, ...). Arguably, a typical

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:53:26 +1030 Tim wrote: > I think emailing this info is the best first default action. Subject: OfflineUncorrectableSector Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2014 07:58:48 + User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 Device: /dev/sdc [SAT], 7 Offline uncorrectable sectors Got no popup abo

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Allegedly, on or about 06 January 2014, Bob Marcan sent: > And moving notifications to Gnome? Does everyone use Gnome? > Should i sit all the time behind the monitor? > I don't. I think emailing this info is the best first default action. The system administrator may not be the person logged in

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 07:48:29 +0100 "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/06/2014 07:37 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > It's obviously a matter of opinion, not fact, as evidenced by the lack of > > universal agreement by fairly reasonable people. I think email is such > > amazing piles of steaming poo

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/06/2014 07:37 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: It's obviously a matter of opinion, not fact, as evidenced by the lack of universal agreement by fairly reasonable people. I think email is such amazing piles of steaming poo that my happiness is inversely proportional to the number/rate of emails I'

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 5, 2014, at 9:59 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > In this light, replacing "mail" as notification mechanism is a substantial > functional regression in generality of deployment. It's obviously a matter of opinion, not fact, as evidenced by the lack of universal agreement by fairly reasonabl

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/05/2014 11:50 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 5, 2014, at 2:31 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: No. IMO, this is just a defect of RH/Fedora based and other Linux distros. They have not been able to provide a proper, out-of-the-box configuration. If they had done so, everybody was using it.

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 5, 2014, at 2:31 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> > No. IMO, this is just a defect of RH/Fedora based and other Linux distros. > They have not been able to provide a proper, out-of-the-box configuration. > > If they had done so, everybody was using it. So this long running defect is just *

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Sat, Jan 04, 2014 at 01:45:34PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: > Restricting the context to just Fedora, by default it is a desktop OS with > a GUI. That's the default install from live desktop, DVD ISO, and netinst > media. That is the primary Fedora deliverable and experience. It is simply Well,

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 10:19:52 +0100 "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > Have you tried sshfs? No, We moved to that at work years ago (to share > between Linux boxes, but windows applications for sshfs also exist). > > Lars Will give it a test http://linhost.info/2012/09/sshfs-in-windows/ ___ Rega

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/04/2014 09:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 3, 2014, at 11:24 PM, David G. Miller wrote: This is as close as I can get to the "end" of this discussion since I get the digest so it will have to do. I've seen you claim over and over that "no one" uses e-mail for system notifications.

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/05/2014 09:25 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: I use nfs from Windows 8.1 to Fedora (filestore\backup etc..) As well as between Fedora Boxes Have you tried sshfs? We moved to that at work years ago (to share between Linux boxes, but windows applications for sshfs also exist). Lars -- Lars E. Pe

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/05/2014 02:27 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: I suspect it's used a ton more than an MTA. I enable sshd on all of my Macs and Fedora installs as one of the first things done. MTA? Never. Not configured even one time in 24 years. Do you have any numbers on that (MTA vs. sshd)? So sshd should st

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/04/2014 03:13 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 3, 2014, at 6:41 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: On 01/04/2014 02:40 AM, Suvayu Ali wrote: What I fail to follow is, why break the existing mechanism *before* we have these other future notification mechanisms ready? *Exactly* Please, SN

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 01:12:40 + Marko Vojinovic wrote: I've used Fedora for as long as it > exists, and I've never seen anyone actually use NFS in real life > scenarios on a typical desktop machine with a GUI. That's also got to > be in the 99% of cases... I use nfs from Windows 8.1 to Fedora

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 4, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 13:45:34 -0700 > Chris Murphy wrote: >> >> Restricting the context to just Fedora, by default it is a desktop OS >> with a GUI. That's the default install from live desktop, DVD ISO, >> and netinst media. That is the prima

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 4, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Andre Robatino wrote: > > I'd really like to be able to get smartd notifications, in GNOME, without > having to configure an MTA at all. Hmmm… http://gnomeshell.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/manage-the-startup-applications/ This shows Disk Notifications does this, and so

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 13:45:34 -0700 Chris Murphy wrote: > > Restricting the context to just Fedora, by default it is a desktop OS > with a GUI. That's the default install from live desktop, DVD ISO, > and netinst media. That is the primary Fedora deliverable and > experience. By that logic, you co

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Chris Murphy colorremedies.com> writes: > Restricting the context to just Fedora, by default it is a desktop OS with a GUI. That's the default install > from live desktop, DVD ISO, and netinst media. That is the primary Fedora deliverable and experience. It > is simply inappropriate for such a sy

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014, at 11:24 PM, David G. Miller wrote: > > This is as close as I can get to the "end" of this discussion since I get > the digest so it will have to do. I've seen you claim over and over that > "no one" uses e-mail for system notifications. It's hyperbole for me to say "no one" be

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/04/2014 02:54 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: Maybe. But at least as often or more, it's just becoming decrepit. It refuses to learn new tricks. It doesn't want to learn to write to a journal or use SNMP or Gnome desktop notification services, or anything other than emails that 9 out of 10 peopl

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/04/2014 02:59 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: What I fail to follow is, why break the existing mechanism *before* we have these other future notification mechanisms ready? 1. Most people weren't using it. How do you know that? The functionality is there, you not knowing about it is no reason t

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/04/2014 03:13 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 3, 2014, at 6:41 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: On 01/04/2014 02:40 AM, Suvayu Ali wrote: What I fail to follow is, why break the existing mechanism *before* we have these other future notification mechanisms ready? *Exactly* Please, SN

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:30:36 -0800 Rick Walker wrote: > echo "Problem in the pit, Boss" | sendtojournald -also_mail > my_foreman > > Journalctl emails me "problem, warning, error, DEAD." a 10 min cronjob setup, no "problem" no mail ___ Regards, Frank www.frankly3d.com -- users mailing

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

OK. Can we make journald have another configurable option? If it were possible to simulate this this: echo "Problem in the pit, Boss" | mail my_foreman With something like echo "Problem in the pit, Boss" | sendtojournald -also_mail my_foreman Then you'd be able to get the people who

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 16:17:43 -0700 Pete Travis wrote: > > The debate on default policy is best left to my betters, but as I said > earlier today, I will write something about the journal and > journalctl in the near future. > > --Pete It would be most appreciated, By someone "man dead" like mys

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Chris Murphy colorremedies.com> writes: > > > On Jan 2, 2014, at 3:42 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" homer.se> wrote: > > > On 01/02/2014 11:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Yes, all critical notifications are supposed to stay persistent. That > >> is the right model to alert desktop users about

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

> Chris Murphy writes: > Now there will be some additional users talking to upstream > developers to incorporate better means of notification rather > than depending on emails that obviously aren't being seen by most > peopel anyway, Was there actually a poll taken about who is using mail on th

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014, at 6:41 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/04/2014 02:40 AM, Suvayu Ali wrote: >> What I fail to follow is, why break the existing mechanism *before* we >> have these other future notification mechanisms ready? > > *Exactly* Please, SNMP has been around since 1988. Gnome h

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014, at 6:40 PM, Suvayu Ali wrote: > On Fri, Jan 03, 2014 at 06:32:43PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: >> >> Now there will be some additional users talking to upstream developers >> to incorporate better means of notification rather than depending on >> emails that obviously aren't bein

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014, at 6:30 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/04/2014 02:10 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: >> Exactly, it's about expectations. As an alternative OS, Fedora simply cannot >> depend on some 30 year old archaic user hostile way of unsuccessfully >> "delivering" supposedly important sy

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/04/2014 02:40 AM, Suvayu Ali wrote: What I fail to follow is, why break the existing mechanism *before* we have these other future notification mechanisms ready? *Exactly* Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Fri, Jan 03, 2014 at 06:32:43PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: > > Now there will be some additional users talking to upstream developers > to incorporate better means of notification rather than depending on > emails that obviously aren't being seen by most peopel anyway, but now > with Fedora 20

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Suvayu Ali wrote: > On Fri, Jan 03, 2014 at 07:27:05PM +, Tom H wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Suvayu Ali >> wrote: >>> On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 01:37:28PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: Clearly it is. Most users don't know about this behavior.

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/04/2014 02:10 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: Exactly, it's about expectations. As an alternative OS, Fedora simply cannot depend on some 30 year old archaic user hostile way of unsuccessfully "delivering" supposedly important system messages. It's just absurd. And that cannot be fixed by someho

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014, at 12:32 PM, Tom H wrote: > On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: >> On 01/03/2014 12:01 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F20_release_announcement#No_Default_Sendmail.2C_Syslog >> >> Rahul, as long as we have applications th

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Tom H wrote: > On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Suvayu Ali > wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 01:37:28PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: >>> >>> Clearly it is. Most users don't know about this behavior. And it's >>> also not done at all on iOS, Android, Windows, OS X.

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Fri, Jan 03, 2014 at 01:56:33PM -0700, Pete Travis wrote: > On Jan 3, 2014 1:16 PM, "Suvayu Ali" wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 09:07:29PM -0700, Pete Travis wrote: > > > > > > $ su -c 'crontab -l' > > > * * * * * echo "TEST TEST" > > > $ crontab -l > > > * * * * LARSHAPPY="no"; if [[ "$LA

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 08:32 PM, Tom H wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: Rahul, as long as we have applications that do send mail, we need an MTA to take care of these mails, or else they are totally lost. Or at least let those applications have a requirement of a MTA so

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 09:56 PM, Pete Travis wrote: > > $ journalctl SYSLOG_IDENTIFIER=CROND -f #filtered for convenience > > How do you know which IDENTIFIER to use? I could guess it should be > CROND if I were to look at the output of journalctl in this case; but is > there any canonical way to f

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014 4:12 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > > On 01/03/2014 06:31 PM, Pete Travis wrote: >> >> On Jan 3, 2014 4:08 AM, "Lars E. Pettersson" > > wrote: >> > >> > On 01/03/2014 05:07 AM, Pete Travis wrote: >> >> >> >> I think there was some misunderstanding here.

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 06:31 PM, Pete Travis wrote: On Jan 3, 2014 4:08 AM, "Lars E. Pettersson" mailto:l...@homer.se>> wrote: > > On 01/03/2014 05:07 AM, Pete Travis wrote: >> >> I think there was some misunderstanding here. If you can't find your >> cronjob output in the journal, *your* cron is bro

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014 1:16 PM, "Suvayu Ali" wrote: > > Hi Pete, > > You seem to be well-versed with journalctl. I hope you don't mind my > asking a few questions. > Sure. I rearranged some things when composing, and as I review, I see I did so poorly... > On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 09:07:29PM -0700, Pete

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Fri, Jan 03, 2014 at 07:27:05PM +, Tom H wrote: > On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Suvayu Ali > wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 01:37:28PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: > >> > >> Clearly it is. Most users don't know about this behavior. And it's > >> also not done at all on iOS, Android, Wi

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi Pete, You seem to be well-versed with journalctl. I hope you don't mind my asking a few questions. On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 09:07:29PM -0700, Pete Travis wrote: > > $ su -c 'crontab -l' > * * * * * echo "TEST TEST" > $ crontab -l > * * * * LARSHAPPY="no"; if [[ "$LARSHAPPY" == "no" ]]; then

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > On 01/03/2014 12:01 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F20_release_announcement#No_Default_Sendmail.2C_Syslog > > Rahul, as long as we have applications that do send mail, we need an MTA to > take care of thes

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Suvayu Ali wrote: > On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 01:37:28PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: >> >> Clearly it is. Most users don't know about this behavior. And it's >> also not done at all on iOS, Android, Windows, OS X. And it's highly >> questionable on desktop linux whethe

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 3, 2014 4:08 AM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > > On 01/03/2014 05:07 AM, Pete Travis wrote: >> >> I think there was some misunderstanding here. If you can't find your >> cronjob output in the journal, *your* cron is broken. > > > Default installation: > > [root@tux ~]# rpm -V cronie > [root

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Fri, Jan 03, 2014 at 01:11:39PM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > On 01/03/2014 12:57 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >It was you who brought in the topic of home servers when this change was > >done only on the desktop live image. It is not clear from your reply > >whether you were already aware

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Allegedly, on or about 02 January 2014, Chris Murphy sent: > When the devel@ mega thread appeared in July, was the first time > inyears I went to look for these messages. And I found a pile of > utterly useless crap being generated; and without notification, or a > good reason for them to be genera

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 12:57 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: It was you who brought in the topic of home servers when this change was done only on the desktop live image. It is not clear from your reply whether you were already aware of this fact or not. Yes, in response to "Yes, all critical notifications a

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > > Yes, instead of of discussing different levels of users, or different > levels of computer systems, I tried to point on the route problem, not > getting astray on tangents out of tangents, to steer the discussion onto a > more construc

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 12:35 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: You talked about home servers and I pointed out that this change was done only on the desktop live image. Instead of acknowledging that, you are talking about how some people need an MTA which I don't think anyone has denied. If some package that re

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 12:48 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: I meant how big files, i.e. content, can you send to the journal, not the size of journal itself. It accepts a stream with a configurable rate limiter. No size limit? How does it show up in the kernel? Say that I have the following data, how is it

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > On 01/03/2014 12:01 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F20_release_announcement# >> No_Default_Sendmail.2C_Syslog >> > > Rahul, as long as we have applications that do send mail, we need an MTA > to take c

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 12:56 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: If you like the MTA method of being notified, install an MTA. Simple. You have been told this numerous times so don't say you haven't gotten any responses. My question was how those, that do not have a MTA installed, is supposed to be notified. Coul

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 12:01 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F20_release_announcement#No_Default_Sendmail.2C_Syslog Rahul, as long as we have applications that do send mail, we need an MTA to take care of these mails, or else they are totally lost. Or at least let those applic

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/03/2014 05:07 AM, Pete Travis wrote: I think there was some misunderstanding here. If you can't find your cronjob output in the journal, *your* cron is broken. Default installation: [root@tux ~]# rpm -V cronie [root@tux ~]# rpm -q cronie cronie-1.4.11-4.fc20.x86_64 [root@tux ~]# rpm -V c

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 21:50:51 +0100 "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > If it ends up in the journal, how will the user be informed that the > content is in the journal and should (perhaps) be acted upon? > > Lars I hope there is in the cards, something similar to sealert (gui) for journal that would

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/02/2014 12:55 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > On 01/02/2014 08:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Is there something you expect to see that is missing from the journal? >>> >>> Yes, the output of cron, that is not a part of the journal output. >> >

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 01:37:28PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Jan 2, 2014, at 1:03 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > > > On 01/02/2014 08:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > >> Really? In the whole world of computing you don't see this is a > >> tiny tiny minority use case? It's so small it

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 01:29:46PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Jan 2, 2014, at 12:55 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > > > On 01/02/2014 08:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > Is there something you expect to see that is missing from the journal? > >>> > >>> Yes, the output of cron, that is

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > Sendmail was taking up space on the install media, on users computers, for no > benefit for the vast majority of users. I don't know how many times this has > to > be said - look at the number of unique individuals involved in the > conver

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 3:42 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 11:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Yes, all critical notifications are supposed to stay persistent. That >> is the right model to alert desktop users about anything relevant enough >> to bother them with. Not emails. > >

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 2:32 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > On 01/02/2014 10:08 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: >>> How big files can you send to the journal? The content we are talking about >>> can be everything from oneliners to really long tracebacks. >> >> By default it is compressed, and set to use

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > On 01/02/2014 11:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Yes, all critical notifications are supposed to stay persistent. That >> is the right model to alert desktop users about anything relevant enough >> to bother them with. Not emails

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 11:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Yes, all critical notifications are supposed to stay persistent. That is the right model to alert desktop users about anything relevant enough to bother them with. Not emails. Works OK on a desktop, but how is the home server use case, where the

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 01/02/2014 01:32 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > >> >> Yes, that works for the desktop user. >> > > Not always. My desktop runs 24/7. Unless a notification stays up until I > acknowledge it, it's not going to do me a bit of good if it co

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 01:32 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: Yes, that works for the desktop user. Not always. My desktop runs 24/7. Unless a notification stays up until I acknowledge it, it's not going to do me a bit of good if it comes up while I'm sleeping, or otherwise away. One thing I like abo

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 10:08 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: How big files can you send to the journal? The content we are talking about can be everything from oneliners to really long tracebacks. By default it is compressed, and set to use 10% of free space. It's configurable, man journald.conf. I meant ho

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 1:50 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 09:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: >> If they're important, they should go in the journal. > > How big files can you send to the journal? The content we are talking about > can be everything from oneliners to really long traceb

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 09:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: If they're important, they should go in the journal. How big files can you send to the journal? The content we are talking about can be everything from oneliners to really long tracebacks. If it ends up in the journal, how will the user be informed

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > For a while now on OS X, cron is no longer used by default. This is now > the job of launch services. > FYI, systemd has similar capabilities and packages have slowly been using them http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 1:32 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 09:24 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: >> OH but wait, I don't really want more email because I think email in general >> sucks because of abuse just like this. And on top of it, from my sampling, >> the messages were useless, so h

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 1:03 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 08:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: >> In the Fedora 19 era it was ~ 30-60 seconds according to systemd-analyze >> blame. There was a bug on it in the bugzilla which was blocking the "why we >> boot so slow" tracker for systemd.

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 09:24 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: OH but wait, I don't really want more email because I think email in general sucks because of abuse just like this. And on top of it, from my sampling, the messages were useless, so had I been getting them by email, I'd have considered them spam and

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 12:55 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 08:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Is there something you expect to see that is missing from the journal? >>> >>> Yes, the output of cron, that is not a part of the journal output. >> >> Then cron is broken. > > cron by

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 08:31 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: >> Right. I wasn't informed they exist, therefore they are not important >> messages. > > You not being informed has nothing to do with the importance of the message > content. You're right

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 08:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: In the Fedora 19 era it was ~ 30-60 seconds according to systemd-analyze blame. There was a bug on it in the bugzilla which was blocking the "why we boot so slow" tracker for systemd. I think it's since been fixed, not sure, but now that the glory of

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 02:31 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 2, 2014, at 12:09 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: On 01/02/2014 07:52 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 2, 2014, at 5:34 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: ... Important mail to/from root is not an "edge case". So important that by default root

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 08:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Is there something you expect to see that is missing from the journal? Yes, the output of cron, that is not a part of the journal output. Then cron is broken. cron by default sends the output to root $ head /etc/crontab SHELL=/bin/bash PATH=/sbin

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 01:52 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 2, 2014, at 5:34 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 01/02/2014 04:40 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: be exposed in GUI, to me it sounds like an edge case request. Important mail to/from root is not an "edge case". So important that by default root

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 08:31 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Right. I wasn't informed they exist, therefore they are not important messages. You not being informed has nothing to do with the importance of the message content. (My proposal was a direct hit at this, making it clear for the user that potential

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 12:26 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 08:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: >> On Jan 2, 2014, at 11:45 AM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: >>> It delivers mail, so it certainly does something. It is not an idle process >>> doing nothing. >> >> I've never seen it do any

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 12:35 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 08:32 PM, Pete Travis wrote: >> Before, if you suspected a problem with a crond job, you looked at the >> user's mail. Now, if you suspect a problem with a cron job, you look at >> the journal. >> >> Is there something you

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 08:32 PM, Pete Travis wrote: Before, if you suspected a problem with a crond job, you looked at the user's mail. Now, if you suspect a problem with a cron job, you look at the journal. Is there something you expect to see that is missing from the journal? Yes, the output of cron,

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014 12:26 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > > On 01/02/2014 08:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: >> >> On Jan 2, 2014, at 11:45 AM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: >>> >>> It delivers mail, so it certainly does something. It is not an idle process doing nothing. >> >> >> I've never seen it do any

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Jan 2, 2014, at 12:09 PM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: > On 01/02/2014 07:52 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: >> On Jan 2, 2014, at 5:34 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > ... >>> Important mail to/from root is not an "edge case". >> >> So important that by default root isn't informed of these messages?

Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 08:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 2, 2014, at 11:45 AM, "Lars E. Pettersson" wrote: It delivers mail, so it certainly does something. It is not an idle process doing nothing. I've never seen it do anything since I started using Fedora, except cause longer boot times. Stra

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