writes to stderr and stdout and assume order is
preserved unless you take specific steps (such as forcing them both to
be unbuffered or flushing them at certain points).
> Is this guarantee no more valid in Python 3.2 ?
If you write to stderr all three times, it should work the way you
want it to.
-
x27;s the convention for Usenet and mailing lists.
> Perhaps you said "Please use `m4-style quotes rather than matching
> ASCII quotes' or `something else' to indicate omission instead".
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards
On 2012-08-16, Dan Sommers wrote:
> On 2012-08-15 at 13:59:53 +,
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> On 2012-08-15, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> > Perhaps you said "Please use `m4-style quotes rather than matching
>> > ASCII quotes' or `something else
gt; And FWIW, I add my voice to those who prefer to read replies
> underneath the original text.
Same here. I often skip reading top-posted articles entirely, since I
don't really care to take the time to start reading at the bottom,
working my up, trying to figure out exactly what the
o top posting. I got one comment something like "That's cool
how you interleaved your reponses -- it's like having a real
conversation."
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Somewhere in Tenafly,
at New Jersey, a
have to do with the startup directory?
If you want to know where __main__ is, you can probably figure it out
from /proc/self/
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Am I having fun yet?
at
gmail.com
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ot;,"--interface",dest="interface",metavar="",type='str',default="eth0")
options,args = p.parse_args()
if len(args) != 0:
sys.stderr.write("no arguments accepted\n")
sys.exit(1)
def toHex(s):
return " ".join([(
ss.
Ah, but as we are always fond of saying in this group "that's an
implementation detail, and not part of the language definition". The
model where a compiler is "keeping notes about it in Narnia" is also
perfectly valid. However, RAM is easier to find than magic ward
ssembler? :)
Nothing -- it's called "C".
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Not SENSUOUS ... only
at "FROLICSOME" ... and in
TERM and SIGINT and clean up before exiting.
You can't catch SIGKILL, but sending a SIGKILL isn't considered polite
unless you've already tried SIGTERM/SIGINT and it didn't work.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Are we on STRIKE yet?
quot;site:python.org " also works nicely if you know
what you want is on the python.org site. I never bother with the
site's search function -- the results are always far better using
google. [This isn't a particular fault of the python.org site, I find
the same is true for p
probably the
simplest solution. I'm not enough of a web guy to know how to do
that, but I do know that some sites do handle site search that way.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I like the way ONLY
at their
On 2012-09-05, Dave Angel wrote:
> On 09/05/2012 01:47 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> Making the site's "search" box use Google or somesuch is probably the
>> simplest solution. I'm not enough of a web guy to know how to do
>> that, but I do know th
instruction? If that
_were_ the case, the difference would be more noticable, but would
still probably not worth worrying about unless a truely huge number of
operations were being done in a very tight loop with no intervening
I/O operations.
--
Grant Edwards grant
ith an SSLSocket, it works the
first time it's called with timeout set to something other than None
(it times out properly). Subsequence reads with timeout set to None
work, but then the second time it's called with a non-None timeout, it
hangs for several minutes, and then the recv() returns
On 2012-09-10, Grant Edwards wrote:
> I can't figure out how to timeout a recv() on an SSLSocket -- I'm using
> Python 2.6 nad 2.7. Here's what I've got so far (it needs to work on
> either a plain or SSL socket):
>
> s.settimeout(timeout)
>
w I'm not alone. If one wants the best
chance of getting a question answered, using something other than
Google Groups is indeed a good idea.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! The PILLSBURY DOUGHBOY
at is CRYING for
bug in hardware, OS
kernel, or device driver.
The solution is usually to fix the hardware, OS, or device driver.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm having an
at emotional outburst!!
On 2012-09-22, Hank Gay wrote:
> On 2012-09-21 15:07:09 +0000, Grant Edwards said:
>>
>> I told my news client years ago to filter out anything posted from
>> Google Groups -- and I know I'm not alone. If one wants the best
>> chance of getting a question answ
struct module and the ctypes
module.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Life is a POPULARITY
at CONTEST! I'm REFRESHINGLY
gmail.comCANDID!!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
o
>> > end-of-file? That's currently done with an optional second
>> > parameter to seek() method.
>>
>> Negative indices.
>>
>
> Which still doesn't handle the third seek mode -- relative to
> current position.
fileobj.pos
on falls below a certain
critical mass -- will the "Python Community" start to stagnate because
it isn't attacting new developers in the quantity or diversity that it
used to...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Alright, you!!
s/syntax/semantics at random from the various different
piles. Those bits where then stuck together with duct tape and bubble
gum and called PHP...
As one of the contractors who wrote some of the PHP said: "PHP is like
the worst parts of shell, Perl, and Java all combi
ogle often
provides an API that's intended for use by non-browser programs.
Those interfaces are usually both easier to use for the programmer and
impose less load on the servers.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I am deeply CONCERNED
On 2012-10-06, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 20:27:36 -0700 (PDT), palmeira
> declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:
>
>>
>> #WRITE
>> fb=open('testOUT.bin')
>
> Unless you specify otherwise, open() defaults to read-only
It also defaults to 'text' mode which
_=
>>tuple[:4]=0D=0A> > a,b,c,d =3D my_tuple if len(my_tuple) =3D=3D 4 else (my_=
>
> How does one unpack this post? ;-)
Yea, my newsreader doesn't like those posts either -- though they're
not as bad as what yours displays. Mine just shows "^M" strings all
at th
rom within that same file. I don't think
I've ever even heard of that before...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! The Korean War must
at have been fun.
gmail.com
--
nux/Unix,
non-Windows), or it may actually have no OS at all. It almost
certainly doesn't have a hard drive.
Many years ago, there was a "deeply embedded Python" project that was
attempting to get Python running on such platforms, but it's been
abandoned for ages. IIRC, it wa
equip yourself with a semi-decent mail reader?
> Like Thunderbird, hint, hint :)
You're tilting at windmills.
Just give up and filter out all postings with a messageid ending in
'@googlegroups.com'. I find that solves all sorts of problems...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.ed
aking
something out of context" is something done by a somebody who is
reading or quoting somebody else.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I own seven-eighths of
at all the artists in downtown
d stick to it, and discuss nothing but Python coding problems.
I disagree! I think occasional off-topic meta-arguments can be
interesting and entertaining.
Yow! Am I having a meta-meta-discussion yet?
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! -- I love KATRINKA
guage.python from a Usenet server). Newsreaders often have
more sophisticated mechanisms to allow you to filter out certain
people/topics/whaterver that don't interest you.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! ... this must be what
, sometimes that means
breaking up the line.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Am I in GRADUATE
at SCHOOL yet?
gmail.com
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
p://www.thegeekstuff.com/2012/04/linux-file-locking-types/
http://www.hackinglinuxexposed.com/articles/20030623.html
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Your CHEEKS sit like
at t
On 2012-10-18, andrea crotti wrote:
> 2012/10/18 Grant Edwards :
>> On 2012-10-18, andrea crotti wrote:
>>
>> File locks under Unix have historically been "advisory". That means
>> that programs have to _choose_ to pay attention to them. Most
>>
0
> characters goes back to teletype machines, and IBM cards, and
> character based terminals
>
> Should that really be the basis for a suggested style now?
You don't expect me to through my Heathkit H19 terminal in the trash,
do you? :)
--
Grant Edwards grant.b
On 2012-10-20, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> Strangely, we've gone from 80-character fixed width displays to
> who-knows-what (if I drop my font size I can probably get nearly 200
> characters across in full-screen mode)...
>
> But at the same time we've gone from 132-character line-prin
On 2012-10-20, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 10/19/2012 06:43 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> Good morning/afternoon/evening all,
>>
>> Is there any possibility that we could find a way to prevent the double
>> spaced rubbish that comes from G$ infiltrating this ng/ml? For example,
>> does Python hav
On 2012-10-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 22:43:07 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>> wrote:
>>> Er, no. Note spelling of "source code" vs "souce code". Hence the grin.
>>
>> Ahh. I totally didn't see that, I'm way too used to
k is in py2exe.
I'm curious how there can be a memory leak in py2exe. I thought all
it did was bundle up the python interpreter and the required libraries
into a "private" python installation that's then invoked by the
wrapper. Does py2exe actually do something after the appl
.
Same here. Here's the rule I have in slrn's .score file:
Score:: =-
Message-ID: .*googlegroups.com
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Where does it go when
at you flush?
gmail.com
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ware (I think it
was DX: http://www.research.ibm.com/dx/). My plugin would subsample
"on the fly" a selected section of a huge 2D array of data in a file.
IBM and SGI had all sorts of widgets you could use to sample,
transform and visualize data, but they all assumed that the input data
would fit
programs you write. In my
experience, EXPR is usually a read from a file/socket/pipe that
returns '' on EOF. If VAR is not '', then you process, then you
process it inside the loop.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! We're going to
e a substantial improvement in
> some sense or make something new possible. There was no new syntax in
> 3.2 and very little in 3.3.
I think the new syntax should be introduced in 2.00. There were a
number of other big changes between 1.52 and 2.00, so that seems like
a good spot to put th
return 4;
}
if (ioctl(fd, TCGETS2, &t))
{
perror("TCGETS2");
return 5;
}
printf("actual speed reported %d\n", t.c_ospeed);
return 0;
}
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards
at
gmail.com
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
icer (prettier) solution out there,
> but I can't currently think of it. Do you have any hints?
IMO, the "right" thing to do in Python is to use single underscore
names for methods that you intend to be called by "friend" modules (is
that correct C++ lingo?) but don'
e it clear to the user what she is
> supposed to use and what not.
The single underscore indicates that the user is not to use the
method.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I am covered with
at pure vegetable oil and I
lang.python (which is where I read/post from):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
> Can i get responses to my mail instead of constantly check the google
> groups site?
Yes. You can subscribe directly to the list (which means you'll
receive a _lot_ of e-mail every da
On 2012-10-31, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 10/31/2012 09:11 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:> On 2012-09-16, ??
> wrote:
>>
>>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>>
>> Learn something else. Google Groups is seriously and
; Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
> especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
> advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.
Don't forget Smalltalk! Old, but always modern and advanced...
--
egular" space or a "no-break space", and
names would be visually ambiguous. Visually ambiguous names are
horrible.
> But, yeah, in the world we live in today, I try to avoid spaces in
> filenames. But, instead of turning "My File Name" into MyFileName, I'll
ad() method, I
check for presence of a read() method. If that fails, then I assume
it's a filename and pass it to open(). If that fails, then it fails.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Oh my GOD -- the
at SUN just
listing the directory contents
Don't most OSes allow non-printing characters in filenames? VMS and
Unix always have. AFAIK, there are only two characters that can't
appear in a Unix filename: '\x00' and '/'.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow!
ould have to
agree. However when the task involves mainly manipulating files and
running other programs, the clumsy control structures are a small
enough price to pay for the ease with which bash deals with
manipulating files/paths/programs.
OTOH, you can use C shell or PHP and ge
or Fraction types, but be aware
> that your script will probably run a lot slower.
Or admit to yourself that the measurements that produce your input
data just aren't that accurate anyway and forget about it. :)
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Bo
On 2012-11-15, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 15/11/2012 21:29, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> All I'll say is that when I read something on gmane via Thunderbird on
> Windows Vista on any of the 25 Python mailing lists that I subscribe to,
> I don't want to read the double spaced crap that comes from G$
27;color': colors[0] }} ]
>
> Incidentally, dictionary keys in Python don't have to be strings, but
> merely 'hashable', which includes integers, floats and tuples amongst
> others.
I think he meant that in his use case, the Python dictionary keys mus
, there was an "HTML" widget that allowed you to do that.
Does Tkinter have something like that?
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! This ASEXUAL PIG
at really BOILS my BLOOD
gmail.com
after
> the external process has terminated.
Isn't there a way in Tkinter to have a file descriptor produce an
event whenever it becomes readble?
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3348757/how-to-make-tkinter-repond-events-while-waiting-socket-data
--
Grant Edwards
nd line.
I do use the "meld" visual diff program quite a bit...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! As President I have
at to go vacuum my coin
gmail.comcollection!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ing their own out of chunks of flint.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Being a BALD HERO
at is almost as FESTIVE as a
gmail.comTATTOOED KNOCKWURST.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
r("operand expressions are not allowed to contain the
string 'import'")
globals = {'__builtins__': None}
locals = symbolTable
return eval(expr, globals, locals)
I can guarantee that symbolTable is a dict that maps a set of string
symbol names to inte
On 2013-01-04, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 01/03/13 17:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> def lessDangerousEval(expr):
>> global symbolTable
>> if 'import' in expr:
>> raise ParseError("operand expressions are not allowed to contain
>> the st
On 2013-01-04, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 23:25:51 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> I've written a small assembler in Python 2.[67], and it needs to
>> evaluate integer-valued arithmetic expressions in the context of a
>> symbol table that d
On 2013-01-04, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 07:24:04 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
>> On 1/3/2013 6:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>
>>> I've written a small assembler in Python 2.[67], and it needs to
>>> evaluate integer-valued arit
On 2013-01-04, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 01/04/2013 08:53 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> That's obviously the "right" thing to do. I suppose I should figure
>> out how to use the ast module.
>
> Or PyParsing.
>
> As for your program being "sec
On 2013-01-04, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 23:25:51 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> I've written a small assembler in Python 2.[67], and it needs to
>> evaluate integer-valued arithmetic expressions in the context of a
>> symbol table that d
On 2013-01-04, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 3:38 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> I've added equals, backslash, commas, square/curly brackets, colons
>> and semicolons to the prohibited character list. I also reduced the
>> maximum length to 60 characte
On 2013-01-04, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 4:14 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2013-01-04, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 3:38 AM, Grant Edwards
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I've added equals, backslash, commas, sq
On 2013-01-04, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> The error messages are still pretty cryptic, so improving
>> that will add a few more lines. One nice thing about the ast code is
>> that it's simple to add code to allow
On 2013-01-05, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> On 4 January 2013 15:53, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2013-01-04, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 23:25:51 +, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>
>>> * But frankly, you should avoid eval, and write your ow
On 2013-01-14, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> A programmer had a problem, and thought Now he has "I know, I'll solve
> two it with threads!" problems.
:)
That took a few seconds -- must be the cold.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards
ng and then after they've learned that add "by the
way, don't actually do it that way".
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Your CHEEKS sit like
at twin NECTARINES above
n script and just output some interesting key value pairs
To what does "key value pairs" refer?
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I am a traffic light,
at and Alan Ginzberg kidnapped
On 2012-01-22, Rick Johnson wrote:
> What does Python do when presented with this code?
It does what you tell it to. What else would you expect?
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Are we wet yet?
On 2012-01-24, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Rick Johnson
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> [RR's usual schtick]
> All in favour, say "Aye" in Latin. All against, say "Plonk".
I plonked RR ages ago. Now I only get to see his p
s are then converted into .dex
files to run on Davlik.
I don't know much at all about Jython, but if it generates JVM byte
code, mightn't the same conversion to .dex be applicable?
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! What I want to find
On 2012-02-16, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2012-02-16, Michael Torrie wrote:
>
>> You claimed Jython is or will be available on Android. It's not and
>> Jython isn't being ported to Dalvik and it has nothing to do with
>> patents. Android might use java a languag
On 2012-02-17, John Gordon wrote:
> In <66ea0353-02ee-4152-947a-97b44ff3e...@p7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> Bruce
> Eckel writes:
>
>> There's an option when you do this to insert default file contents, so
>> I began searching the web for some kind of prototype Python file that
>> would be appropr
On 2012-02-17, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:55:46 -0700, Ian Kelly
> wrote:
>
>>
>>The shebang has to be the first thing in the file to be useful. As it
>>is above, it might as well not be there. I would suggest also
>>including a doc string in the skeleton.
>>
> Of c
data.log | sort
;)
Any decent modern shell (e.g. Bash) is a stunningly powerful
environment aimed at solving a certain sort of problems in a certain
way. Python is aimed at solving a more general set of problems in an
entirely different way.
Yes, you can drive a nail with a screwdriver if you t
you want something else, then perhaps you should use rationals or
decimals:
http://docs.python.org/library/fractions.html
http://docs.python.org/library/decimal.html
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! What I want to find
at
for the solutions to their problems than do
> comp.lang.python posters.
>
> http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.java.programmer/Floating-point-roundoff-error
One might wonder if the frequency of such questions decreases as the
programming language becomes "lower level" (e.g.
On 2012-03-04, Chris Rebert wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Damjan Georgievski wrote:
>> How can I get the *really* original command line that started my python
>> interpreter?
> On Linux, you can read from:
> /proc//cmdline
> to get the null-delimited "command line".
And if what y
tart since you know how Tk works (assuming the API for the newer
themed widgets isn't too much different than the old widgets).
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Give them RADAR-GUIDED
at SKEE-BALL LANES and
ou can kill them by name
instead of having to look up the PID.
It seems like an excellent thing to add to the "os" module.
> Look for 'prctl' and 'PR_SET_NAME', which are the C-level function
> and constant that do the job; a cursory examination of PyPI shows
>>>
>>
>> I did google, I've played with Exemaker (it works perfect, but not py3) and
>> i've seen questions on Stackoverflow.
>> The thing I mean is a build feature of python to give such a name. Not 3rd
>> part or etc. like Grant Edwards said. I
On 2012-03-16, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:39 AM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>> Seems like an awfully obtuse way of doing things -- I don't really
>> want to have 15 different copies of Python (or even links), and it
>> requires root privleges
ill ends up as python2.6 (or whatever the real binary is called).
>
> Try a hardlink instead of symlink? It seems to work for me.
Not across different filesystems -- which was what I was talking
about.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! As President I have
On 2012-03-28, Chris Angelico wrote:
> for all you know, it might actually be stored as a sequence of
> apples in a refrigerator
[...]
> There's no logical Python way to turn that into a series of bytes.
There's got to be a joke there somewhere about how to eat an apple...
.
It's easy as long as you deal with nothing but ASCII and Latin-1. ;)
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Somewhere in Tenafly,
at New Jersey, a chiropractor
gmail.comis viewing "Lea
: 33 are non-printing
control characters (now mostly obsolete) that affect how text and
space is processed and 95 printable characters, including the space
(which is considered an invisible graphic).
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow
their console-mode-installer (which was written in Python).
But, the docs are pretty sparse, and it's not very active these days.
> I would like very low level feature, form like sphinx quick start or
> modern-package-template?
Sorry, no clue what those are...
--
Grant Edwards
the new code an hooking it into the
indicated spot with jump instructions.
The mind wobbled.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm a fuschia bowling
at ball somewhere in Brittany
gmail.com
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 2012-04-11, Antti J Ylikoski wrote:
> I wrote about a straightforward way to program D. E. Knuth in Python,
Yikes. I think if you're going to try to write AI in Pyton, you might
want to start out programming something a bit simpler...
;)
--
Grant Edwards grant.b
tmp_file)
>> result = os.system(cmd)
>>
>> ... on a Windows box it will fail because 'ssh' isn't part of Windows.
>
> ssh isn't guaranteed to be part of Unix/Linux systems surely.
It's not absolutely, 100%, iron-clad guaranteed, but
7;t exceed 0x1. This is
probably better:
n = int('0xc0a8'16) & 0x
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! What PROGRAM are they
at watching?
gmail.com
--
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On 2012-04-27, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2012-04-27, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> python writes:
>>> What to decode hex '0xC0A8' and return signed short int.
>>
>> Is this right?
>>
>> n = int('0xC0A8', 16)
>> if n >= 0xf
On 2012-04-27, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2012-04-27, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2012-04-27, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>> python writes:
>>>> What to decode hex '0xC0A8' and return signed short int.
>>>
>>> Is this right?
>>>
the normal ISA/PCI-attached drivers. The main
things you'll notice are differences in buffer/fifo sizes and the
timing of things like commands to set/clear modem control lines.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I didn't order any
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