Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

nal Message- > > From: Jeremy Stanley [mailto:fu...@yuggoth.org] > > Sent: 26 June 2015 16:42 > > To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs > > > > On 20

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Nikola Đipanov wrote: > > It's not only about education - I think Gerrit is the wrong medium to > > have a design discussion and do design work. Maybe you disagree as you > > seem to imply that it worked well in some cases? > > > > I've rec

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/29/2015 11:32 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Nikola Đipanov wrote: >> It's not only about education - I think Gerrit is the wrong medium to >> have a design discussion and do design work. Maybe you disagree as you >> seem to imply that it worked well in some cases? >> >> I've recently seen on mo

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

Nikola Đipanov wrote: > It's not only about education - I think Gerrit is the wrong medium to > have a design discussion and do design work. Maybe you disagree as you > seem to imply that it worked well in some cases? > > I've recently seen on more than a few cases how a spec "review" can > easily

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

Top-posting since I am writing this as summary email, with some (very) rough proposals on improvements going forward (*) * Specs have a number of positives that we should not discount: ** Absolutely necessary to sign off on the idea and direction before writing code ** Serve as a way for operato

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/26/2015 08:15 PM, Tim Bell wrote: > > Limiting those who give input to the people who can analyse python and > determine the impacts of the change has significant risks. Many of those > running OpenStack clouds can give their feedback as part of the specs > process. While this may not be

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

r usage questions) >Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs > >+1 > >From: Tim Bell [tim.b...@cern.ch] >Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 12:26 PM >To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

+1 also   Original Message   From: Fox, Kevin M Sent: Friday, 26 June 2015 21:15 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Reply To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs +1

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

https://bugs.launchpad.net/stackalytics/+bug/1469368 submitted. Tim > -Original Message- > From: Jeremy Stanley [mailto:fu...@yuggoth.org] > Sent: 26 June 2015 23:16 > To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova]

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 2015-06-26 19:26:57 + (+), Tim Bell wrote: > I also feel that stackalytics should credit people of a 0 review > comment on specs. Currently, I think that only non-zero reviews > are considered as a contribution. My understanding of the workflow > is that a 0 is in many cases is the const

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

+1 From: Tim Bell [tim.b...@cern.ch] Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 12:26 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs > -Original Message- > From:

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

> -Original Message- > From: Jeremy Stanley [mailto:fu...@yuggoth.org] > Sent: 26 June 2015 16:42 > To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs > > On 2015-06-25 16:39:56 +0

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

> -Original Message- > From: Nikola Đipanov [mailto:ndipa...@redhat.com] > Sent: 26 June 2015 18:34 > To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs > > On 06/25/2015 05:39 PM, Tim Bell wrote: > >

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/25/2015 05:39 PM, Tim Bell wrote: > > > On 25/06/15 09:49, "Thierry Carrez" wrote: > >> Maxim Nestratov wrote: >>> 24.06.2015 20:21, Daniel P. Berrange пишет: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 04:46:57PM +, Michael Krotscheck wrote: > First: Overhead > - 1 week for vacation > -

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 2015-06-25 16:39:56 + (+), Tim Bell wrote: [...] > One of the problems that I’ve seen is with specs etiquette where > people -1 because they have a question. This is a question of > education rather than a fundamental issue with the process. http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/develo

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 26 June 2015 at 11:19, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > On 06/25/2015 09:46 PM, Joe Gordon wrote: >> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Nikola Đipanov > >> >> >> > As someone who does a lot of spec reviews, I take +1s from the right >> > people (not always nova-cores) to mean a lot, so much that I

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/25/2015 09:46 PM, Joe Gordon wrote: > On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Nikola Đipanov > > > > As someone who does a lot of spec reviews, I take +1s from the right > > people (not always nova-cores) to mean a lot, so much that I regularly > > will simply skim the spec myself b

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > On 06/24/2015 10:17 PM, Joe Gordon wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Kashyap Chamarthy > > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:02:27AM -0500, Matt Riedemann wrote: > > > > >

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 25/06/15 09:49, "Thierry Carrez" wrote: >Maxim Nestratov wrote: >> 24.06.2015 20:21, Daniel P. Berrange пишет: >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 04:46:57PM +, Michael Krotscheck wrote: First: Overhead - 1 week for vacation - 1 week for holidays. - 4 weeks for feature freeze

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 06/24/2015 04:41 PM, Joe Gordon wrote: > We currently have the fast track process, where if a spec was > previously approved we will quickly re-approve it. (I do a git diff > between the previous version and make sure the diff is trivial). By > m

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

window is a very long time for that. Thanks, Kevin From: Maxim Nestratov Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 11:58:20 AM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs 24.06.2015 20:21, Daniel P. Berrange пишет

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

25.06.2015 14:58, Sergey Nikitin пишет: I've repeatedly stated that the fact that we created an even smaller clique of people to approve specs (nova-drivers which is a tiny subset of the already fr too small nova-core) is madness,

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

: OpenStack List mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 2:58 PM To: OpenStack List mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs I've repeatedly stated that the fact that we created an

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

> > >>> I've repeatedly stated that the fact that we created an even smaller >>> clique of people to approve specs (nova-drivers which is a tiny subset >>> of the already fr too small nova-core) is madness, as it creates >>> an even worse review burden on them, and thus worsens the bottleneck >

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/2015 03:42 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: Hey Nova, I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate good design happening, if anything they prevent i

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

Apologies to go back in time in this thread, but I feel like I should respond directly to this original email... On 24 June 2015 at 11:28, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > Hey Nova, > > I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: > > Specs don't work! In many cases, specs rea

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 25 June 2015 at 09:58, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Joe Gordon wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Ed Leafe > > wrote: >>> [...] >>> Other emails have touched on the biggest disconnect in the process: that >>> an approved spec magically becomes unapproved on a particul

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 25 June 2015 at 09:49, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Maxim Nestratov wrote: >> 24.06.2015 20:21, Daniel P. Berrange пишет: >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 04:46:57PM +, Michael Krotscheck wrote: First: Overhead - 1 week for vacation - 1 week for holidays. - 4 weeks for feature fre

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

Joe Gordon wrote: > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Ed Leafe > wrote: >> [...] >> Other emails have touched on the biggest disconnect in the process: that >> an approved spec magically becomes unapproved on a particular calendar >> date. This makes no sense whatsoever. If

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

Maxim Nestratov wrote: > 24.06.2015 20:21, Daniel P. Berrange пишет: >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 04:46:57PM +, Michael Krotscheck wrote: >>> First: Overhead >>> - 1 week for vacation >>> - 1 week for holidays. >>> - 4 weeks for feature freeze. >>> - 4 weeks of pre-summit roadmap planning. >>> -

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/2015 10:17 PM, Joe Gordon wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Kashyap Chamarthy > wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:02:27AM -0500, Matt Riedemann wrote: > > > > > > On 6/24/2015 9:09 AM, Kashyap Chamarthy wrote: > > >On Wed

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/2015 06:42 PM, Jay Pipes wrote: I also think the way we couple spec approval & reviews to the dev cycles is counterproductive. We should be willing to accept and review specs at any point in any cycle, and once approved they should remain valid for a prolonged period of time - not requ

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/2015 08:42 AM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: Hey Nova, I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate good design happening, if anything they prevent i

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Ed Leafe wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > On 06/24/2015 08:38 AM, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > > > I urge people to reply to this instead of my original email as the > > writing is more detailed and balanced. > > OK, I've read what others

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Kashyap Chamarthy wrote: > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:02:27AM -0500, Matt Riedemann wrote: > > > > > > On 6/24/2015 9:09 AM, Kashyap Chamarthy wrote: > > >On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 02:51:38PM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > > >>On 06/24/2015 02:33 PM, Matt Riedemann

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

24.06.2015 20:21, Daniel P. Berrange пишет: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 04:46:57PM +, Michael Krotscheck wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 6:30 AM Matt Riedemann wrote: There is the openstack-specs repo for cross-project specs: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-specs/ That'd be a

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:02:27AM -0500, Matt Riedemann wrote: > > > On 6/24/2015 9:09 AM, Kashyap Chamarthy wrote: > >On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 02:51:38PM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > >>On 06/24/2015 02:33 PM, Matt Riedemann wrote: [. . .] > >This is one of the _baffling_ aspects -- that a so

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 04:46:57PM +, Michael Krotscheck wrote: > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 6:30 AM Matt Riedemann > wrote: > > > > > There is the openstack-specs repo for cross-project specs: > > > > http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-specs/ > > > > That'd be a good place for thing

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 06/24/2015 08:38 AM, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > I urge people to reply to this instead of my original email as the > writing is more detailed and balanced. OK, I've read what others have written, and want to throw in my own 0.8316 BTC. The sp

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

TL/DR: I think the original poster is simply frustrated with how long it takes to go from spec to landed feature. How about we stop talking about whether specs are good or not (I think everyone agrees that they are beneficial), and try to actually make the process better? And by make it better, I

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/2015 04:42 PM, Andrew Laski wrote: > On 06/24/15 at 02:38pm, Nikola Đipanov wrote: >> On 06/24/2015 01:42 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: Hey Nova, I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity a

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/15 at 02:38pm, Nikola Đipanov wrote: On 06/24/2015 01:42 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: Hey Nova, I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate go

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 6/24/2015 9:09 AM, Kashyap Chamarthy wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 02:51:38PM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: On 06/24/2015 02:33 PM, Matt Riedemann wrote: [. . .] I agree completely. The nicely rendered feature docs which is a byproduct of the specs process in gerrit is a great part of i

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/2015 03:08 PM, Dan Smith wrote: >> Why do cores need approved specs for example - and indeed for many of us >> - it's just a dance we do. I refuse to believe that a core can be >> trusted to approve patches but not to write any code other than a bugfix >> without a written document explain

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 04:09:16PM +0200, Kashyap Chamarthy wrote: > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 02:51:38PM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > > On 06/24/2015 02:33 PM, Matt Riedemann wrote: > > [. . .] > > > > I agree completely. The nicely rendered feature docs which is a > > > byproduct of the specs p

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 02:51:38PM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > On 06/24/2015 02:33 PM, Matt Riedemann wrote: [. . .] > > I agree completely. The nicely rendered feature docs which is a > > byproduct of the specs process in gerrit is a great part of it. So when > > someone is trying to use a ne

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

> Why do cores need approved specs for example - and indeed for many of us > - it's just a dance we do. I refuse to believe that a core can be > trusted to approve patches but not to write any code other than a bugfix > without a written document explaining themselves, and then have a yet > more ex

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/2015 02:33 PM, Matt Riedemann wrote: > > > On 6/24/2015 8:23 AM, Sahid Orentino Ferdjaoui wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: >>> Hey Nova, >>> >>> I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: >>> >>> Specs don't work! The

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 06/24/2015 01:42 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: >> Hey Nova, >> >> I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: >> >> Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate good design happening, >> if anything

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 6/24/2015 8:23 AM, Sahid Orentino Ferdjaoui wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: Hey Nova, I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate good design happening, if anything they pre

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 06/24/2015 03:23 PM, Sahid Orentino Ferdjaoui wrote: > I do not consider specs don't work, personnaly I refer myself to > this relatively good documentation [1] instead of to dig in code > to remember how work a feature early introduced. > I thi

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On 6/24/2015 7:42 AM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: Hey Nova, I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate good design happening, if anything they prevent i

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > Hey Nova, > > I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: > > Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate good design happening, > if anything they prevent it. The process layered on top with only a

Re: [openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:28:59AM +0100, Nikola Đipanov wrote: > Hey Nova, > > I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: > > Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate good design happening, > if anything they prevent it. The process layered on top with only a

[openstack-dev] [Nova] The unbearable lightness of specs

Hey Nova, I'll cut to the chase and keep this email short for brevity and clarity: Specs don't work! They do nothing to facilitate good design happening, if anything they prevent it. The process layered on top with only a minority (!) of cores being able to approve them, yet they are a prereq of