Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 10:58 AM Jay Hennigan wrote: > ARIN could certainly, if they chose, produce a listing of the cases to > which it was a party as well as those where ARIN counsel was called as > an expert witness. Actual access to the text of such cases would be left > as an exercise for the

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On 9/19/22 20:58, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote: Why not publish such a table? It shouldn’t be a particularly difficult task and could prove rather enlightening. Individual trial court cases aren't generally published. There may be a transcript at the local courthouse, but rarely available in

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

Owen - It’s certainly worth looking into… Might you submit that idea into the ARIN suggestion process so it may be formally considered? (ARIN ACSP

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

Why not publish such a table? It shouldn’t be a particularly difficult task and could prove rather enlightening. Owen > On Sep 19, 2022, at 20:09, John Curran wrote: > >  >>> On 19 Sep 2022, at 10:48 PM, John Gilmore wrote: >>> >>> John Curran wrote: >>> [challenges by legacy registran

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

An important detail in the CI case is that there was no PDP based change in the policy text, AFRINIC simply suddenly contradicted their own prior statements and began (mid)interpreting their own governing documents to say things that they don’t actually say. Owen > On Sep 19, 2022, at 19:49,

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On 19 Sep 2022, at 11:08 PM, John Curran mailto:jcur...@arin.net>> wrote: On 19 Sep 2022, at 10:48 PM, John Gilmore mailto:g...@toad.com>> wrote: ... Is there a public archive of these court proceedings? Or even a list of which cases have involved ARIN (or another RIR)? John - Not to my kn

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On 19 Sep 2022, at 10:48 PM, John Gilmore wrote: > > John Curran wrote: >> [challenges by legacy registrants] has been before judges and resolved >> numerous times. >> >> We’ve actually had the matter before many judges, and have never been >> ordered to do anything other than operate the re

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

John Curran wrote: > [challenges by legacy registrants] has been before judges and resolved > numerous times. > > We’ve actually had the matter before many judges, and have never been > ordered to do anything other than operate the registry per the number > resource policy as developed by this co

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 7:39 AM John Curran wrote:? > On 16 Sep 2022, at 10:11 PM, John Gilmore wrote: >> As a simple example, ARIN's contract need not require its customers to >> give up their resources when ceasing to pay ARIN for services. (There's > > A wonderful assertion, but false. Of co

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On 18 Sep 2022, at 2:28 PM, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote: > >> >> No formal agreement, but those involved in ARIN’s formation did indicate >> that at transition >> the existing registrations would be maintained without a need for agreement >> or fee. >> >> The ARIN Board has maintained tha

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

> On 18 Sep 2022, at 20:42, Owen DeLong wrote: > > Since at its best, all RPKI can provide is a hint at how to properly lie > about an announcement (i.e. what > you must prepend in order for it to be believed), I remain unconvinced that > it provides any actual benefit > except, perhaps, to

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

Since at its best, all RPKI can provide is a hint at how to properly lie about an announcement (i.e. what you must prepend in order for it to be believed), I remain unconvinced that it provides any actual benefit except, perhaps, to the largest and most well known ASNs as originators. Owen > O

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

> On 18 Sep 2022, at 20:17, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote: > > > >> On Sep 15, 2022, at 22:04 , Rubens Kuhl wrote: >> >> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:45 PM William Herrin wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 9:09 PM Rubens Kuhl wrote: On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:55 AM William Herrin

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

> On Sep 17, 2022, at 08:18 , Tom Beecher wrote: > > I would honestly love it if IANA was able to say "As of X date, all LEGACY > IPv4 allocations are transferred to the RIRs . Assignees will not change, but > will now need to comply with each RIRs policies." The first part of that statement

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On Sep 16, 2022, at 11:49 , John Curran wrote: > > >> On 16 Sep 2022, at 2:21 PM, Aaron Wendel wrote: >> >> I'm not trying to troll, this is a serious question: >> >> Is there a formal agreement that says that all legacy resources will receive >> free registry services forever and ever

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On Sep 16, 2022, at 10:37 , William Herrin wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:29 AM John Curran > wrote: >>> On 16 Sep 2022, at 1:22 PM, William Herrin wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:12 AM John Curran wrote: Note - if the reason that you are paying "

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On Sep 16, 2022, at 10:12 , John Curran wrote: > > >> On 16 Sep 2022, at 12:51 PM, Steve Noble wrote: >> >> I appreciate your response, I remember all of the discussions around this >> change and the positive/negative aspects of it, but it did not correct the >> disenfranchisement of AS

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

> On Sep 16, 2022, at 08:53 , John Curran wrote: > > Tom - > > It’s an artifact of our formation that we are presently providing services to > any customers absent any agreement > and while ARIN continues to do so (by providing basic services to legacy > customers), the long-term direction

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

> On 18 Sep 2022, at 20:04, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote: > > I could be mistaken, but I believe that RIPE NCC provides RPKI services for > Legacy without Contract resource holders. The policy: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-639 The details: https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

> On Sep 15, 2022, at 22:04 , Rubens Kuhl wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:45 PM William Herrin > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 9:09 PM Rubens Kuhl wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:55 AM William Herrin wrote: No, the best option for me right now

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

> On Sep 15, 2022, at 21:09 , Rubens Kuhl wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:55 AM William Herrin > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 8:51 PM Rubens Kuhl wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:56 AM William Herrin wrote: Well, I'm one of the people who'd pub

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

I could be mistaken, but I believe that RIPE NCC provides RPKI services for Legacy without Contract resource holders. Owen > On Sep 15, 2022, at 15:55 , Rubens Kuhl wrote: > > You could try suggesting IANA/PTI/ICANN to have a different RPKI trust > anchor and provide such services to legacy b

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

Tom – While this may be surprising, it’s my personal view that ARIN and our community has benefited significantly from the approach taken with the legacy resource holders – as opposed to what might have occurred with some form of automatic or mandatory conversion of legacy resource holders to A

RE: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

ber 17, 2022 10:19 AM To: John Curran Cc: North American Network Operators' Group Subject: Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 Decemb

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

I would honestly love it if IANA was able to say "As of X date, all LEGACY IPv4 allocations are transferred to the RIRs . Assignees will not change, but will now need to comply with each RIRs policies." Of course this will never happen, because it would just be a flood of billable hours, lawsuits,

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

On 16 Sep 2022, at 10:11 PM, John Gilmore mailto:g...@toad.com>> wrote: John Curran mailto:jcur...@arin.net>> wrote: ... the long-term direction is to provide the same services to all customers under the same agreement and fees – anything else wouldn’t be equitable. There are many "anything els

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

John Curran wrote: > ... the long-term direction is to provide the same services to all > customers under the same agreement and fees – anything else wouldn’t > be equitable. There are many "anything else"s that would indeed be equitable. It is equitable for businesses to sell yesterday's bread

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

Bill – From a great height or distance, your “bottom line” summary of a some form of status quo probably appears accurate. (I am unfortunately much closer and see quite a bit a of detail lost in it; for example, we have been enforcing different community-developed transfer policies that have ch

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:47 PM John Curran wrote: > Again, to make sure there is 100% clarity: we have consistently ended up > settling with orders > that recognize ARIN’s ability to operate the registry according to the > community-developed > policy, including the application of that policy

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On 16 Sep 2022, at 3:21 PM, William Herrin wrote: > >> instead consistently end up settling with orders that recognize ARIN’s >> ability to operate the registry according to the community-developed policy > > That's quite an overstatement. As far as I'm aware, with respect to > the legacy re

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:31 PM Tom Beecher wrote: > I am trying to follow your train of thought here. Are you stating that > it is somehow ARIN's responsibility to force a legal case to a > conclusion solely to settle the question of legacy allocation > rights, a problem which predates ARIN's ex

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

William- I am trying to follow your train of thought here. Are you stating that it is somehow ARIN's responsibility to force a legal case to a conclusion solely to settle the question of legacy allocation rights, a problem which predates ARIN's existence? Or am I misunderstanding you? On Fri, Sep

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:00 PM John Curran wrote: > We’ve actually had the matter before many judges, and have never been ordered > to do > anything other than operate the registry per the number resource policy as > developed by > this community – this has been the consistent outcome througho

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On 16 Sep 2022, at 2:53 PM, William Herrin mailto:b...@herrin.us>> wrote: ARIN has its official theories and each of the legacy registrants have theirs. For the past 25 years, ARIN has not elected to challenge the legacy registrants in a manner substantive enough to require the question to be re

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:21 AM Aaron Wendel wrote: > Is there a formal agreement that says that all legacy resources will > receive free registry services forever and ever or is it just an > informal "That's how it was done"? Hi Aaron, That is a... complicated... topic. To help illuminate it,

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On 16 Sep 2022, at 2:21 PM, Aaron Wendel wrote: > > I'm not trying to troll, this is a serious question: > > Is there a formal agreement that says that all legacy resources will receive > free registry services forever and ever or is it just an informal "That's how > it was done”? No forma

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

I'm not trying to troll, this is a serious question: Is there a formal agreement that says that all legacy resources will receive free registry services forever and ever or is it just an informal "That's how it was done"? Aaron

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:29 AM John Curran wrote: > > On 16 Sep 2022, at 1:22 PM, William Herrin wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:12 AM John Curran wrote: > >> Note - if the reason that you are paying "significant money” to ARIN is > >> because you have more than one ASN > >> (and theref

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On 16 Sep 2022, at 1:22 PM, William Herrin wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:12 AM John Curran wrote: >> Note - if the reason that you are paying "significant money” to ARIN is >> because you have more than one ASN >> (and therefore are paying $150 per-ASN annual maintenance fee), I woul

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:12 AM John Curran wrote: > Note - if the reason that you are paying "significant money” to ARIN is > because you have more than one ASN > (and therefore are paying $150 per-ASN annual maintenance fee), I would > suggest you review if you qualify for > a /24 IPv4 block

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

> On 16 Sep 2022, at 12:51 PM, Steve Noble wrote: > > I appreciate your response, I remember all of the discussions around this > change and the positive/negative aspects of it, but it did not correct the > disenfranchisement of ASN only holders who are customer and do have to pay > for servi

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 9:51 AM Steve Noble wrote: > William Herrin wrote on 9/16/22 9:28 AM: > > Actually, the rules HAVE changed. Under the new fee schedule, every > > payer except AS-only payers are eligible to vote. ARIN still has a lot > > of structural deficiencies but in this particular res

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

William Herrin wrote on 9/16/22 9:28 AM: On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 9:09 AM Steve Noble wrote: On Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 8:55 AM John Curran wrote: It’s an artifact of our formation that we are presently providing services to any customers absent any agreement and while ARIN continues to do so (

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023

John Curran wrote on 9/16/22 9:30 AM: On 16 Sep 2022, at 12:26 PM, Steve Noble > wrote: On Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 9:23 AM John Curran > wrote: Steve - If you have IPv4 or IPv6 resources under an RSA/LRSA, then you are an ARIN serv

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

On 16 Sep 2022, at 12:26 PM, Steve Noble mailto:sno...@sonn.com>> wrote: On Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 9:23 AM John Curran mailto:jcur...@arin.net>> wrote: Steve - If you have IPv4 or IPv6 resources under an RSA/LRSA, then you are an ARIN service member. ARIN service members in good standing can (

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 9:09 AM Steve Noble wrote: > On Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 8:55 AM John Curran wrote: >> It’s an artifact of our formation that we are presently providing services >> to any customers absent any agreement >> and while ARIN continues to do so (by providing basic services to legacy

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 9:23 AM John Curran wrote: > > On 16 Sep 2022, at 12:09 PM, Steve Noble wrote: > > (This is the direction that the ARIN Board of Trustees has set based on >> community input; I will note that >> the ARIN Board is itself elected by the community and that we have our >> annua

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

veryone under an RSA? >>> >>> Tom Krenn >>> Network Architect >>> Enterprise Architecture - Information Technology >>> >>> From: John Curran >>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:42 PM >>> To: Tom Krenn >>> Cc

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

On 16 Sep 2022, at 12:09 PM, Steve Noble mailto:sno...@sonn.com>> wrote: (This is the direction that the ARIN Board of Trustees has set based on community input; I will note that the ARIN Board is itself elected by the community and that we have our annual election upcoming – Unless the rules

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

hn Curran >> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:42 PM >> To: Tom Krenn >> Cc: Rubens Kuhl ; North American Network Operators' Group >> >> Subject: Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA >> entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

e structure and service goals from the > drive to get everyone under an RSA? > > Tom Krenn > > Network Architect > > Enterprise Architecture - Information Technology > > *From:* John Curran > *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:42 PM > *To:* Tom Krenn > *Cc:*

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

rmal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) On 15 Sep 2022, at 9:29 PM, Tom Krenn via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote: An interesting id

RE: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

: Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 2023) On 15 Sep 2022, at 9:29 PM, Tom Krenn via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote: An

Re: [External] Normal ARIN registration service fees for LRSA entrants after 31 Dec 2023 (was: Fwd: [arin-announce] Availability of the Legacy Fee Cap for New LRSA Entrants Ending as of 31 December 20

On 15 Sep 2022, at 9:29 PM, Tom Krenn via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote: An interesting idea, but like others have said I think the ship may have sailed for RPKI. Really I have no problem with the ARIN fees. They are a drop in the bucket for most network budgets. In fact as a legacy hol