Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

Nail -> Head <- Hammer Well put ! I don’t know if it could have been put better than that. -- J. Hellenthal The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume. > On Mar 23, 2021, at 10:57, Emil Pfeffer wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 2

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

>>> I am not going to lament much, either. It is just how it goes. On the >>> brighter side, there will also be a minority, who will come to email >>> exactly because they will be aspiring power users. I think there will >>> always be some aspiring power users, so it is not going to be only bad. >>

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

Agree. I’ve had it filtered to a casual folder for 5 years now. I appreciate the banter. Abilities to sort and shred would be great. While I miss mail, I’m OK using browser code if it can make nanog-l more relevant. $0.02 only On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 18:31 Matthew Petach wrote: > > On Thu,

Re: OAuth for RIRs - There is already any Idea like that?

The two proposals for RPKI signed attestatations, RSC and RTA, look candidates for a role this. The primary question is not "who are you" which OAuth is about, it is "what resources do you control, which would inform what we're doing here" -which is what RPKI is about. it's important to be clear,

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 10:32:20AM +0200, Mark Tinka wrote: > > > On 3/23/21 02:22, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > >I am not going to lament much, either. It is just how it goes. On the > >brighter side, there will also be a minority, who will come to email > >exactly because they will be aspiring power

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:34:37 -0600, Grant Taylor via NANOG said: > On 3/23/21 4:16 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > > But they still have the originating domain's From: address. > > My opinion is that messages from the mailing list should not have the > originating domain in the From: address. The mess

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 4:34 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote: On 3/23/21 4:16 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: But they still have the originating domain's From: address. My opinion is that messages from the mailing list should not have the originating domain in the From: address.  The message from the mailin

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 4:16 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: But they still have the originating domain's From: address. My opinion is that messages from the mailing list should not have the originating domain in the From: address. The message from the mailing list should be from the mailing list's domain. N

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 2:55 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote: On 3/23/21 1:40 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: The big problem with mailing lists is that they screw up security by changing the subject/body and breaking DKIM signatures. What you are describing is a capability, configuration, execution issue wi

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 1:40 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: The big problem with mailing lists is that they screw up security by changing the subject/body and breaking DKIM signatures. What you are describing is a capability, configuration, execution issue with the mailing list manager software. Said another

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:39:49 -, Emil Pfeffer said: > The generational gap is not an issue it is how things need to be. The network > engineering the younger generation deals with is not the same networking the > old > generation deals with but built upon this old networks. This two generation

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 1:44 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2021, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote: If it's the latter, does that mean that you have to constantly keep changing /where/ messages are sent to in order to keep up with the latest and greatest or at least most popular (in y

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 8:26 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: On 3/23/21 17:11, Seth Mattinen wrote: Okay great for those apps, but if nobody tells me where the new action is... how does that help me? With the list here at least it's on NANOG's website and they tell you how to join in. This feels like you're s

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

> On 3/22/21 11:22 PM, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote: >> Hi, >> >> As someone from a "younger generation" (2001) who does use mailing lists, >> semi-actively participates in RIPE mailing lists but also created a network >> community on Discord, I want to chime in here. >> >> > Are they willi

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 2:35 PM scott > wrote: Well, now we are likely find out what happens when Discord is bought: "Microsoft in talks to buy Discord messaging platform - sources" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-discord-m-a/microsoft-in-talk

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

Nope. https://www.discourse.org/ != https://discord.com/ On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 2:35 PM scott wrote: > > Well, now we are likely find out what happens when Discord is bought: > > > "Microsoft in talks to buy Discord messaging platform - sources" > > > https://www.reuters.com/article/us-discord

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

Well, now we are likely find out what happens when Discord is bought: "Microsoft in talks to buy Discord messaging platform - sources" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-discord-m-a/microsoft-in-talks-to-buy-discord-messaging-platform-sources-idUSKBN2BE320 scott

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

    Hey, I did some OS/2 network driver for SNA over X.25 card using a PRI =D.     But its all a question of workflow...  Fake busy work created by devices/apps battling for your attention ain't my cup of tea. - Alain Hebertaheb...@pubnix.net PubNIX Inc. 50

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/22/21 11:22 PM, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote: Hi, As someone from a "younger generation" (2001) who does use mailing lists, semi-actively participates in RIPE mailing lists but also created a network community on Discord, I want to chime in here. > Are they willing to use a (tradit

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

- On Mar 23, 2021, at 1:09 AM, Mark Tinka mark@tinka.africa wrote: Hi, > I'm of the opposite view... front-end shiny GUI's are the risk. I'd > babysit them before I let them leave the house. For a long time. Children of the magenta line... Most of the more effective troubleshooting techniqu

Re: Reinventing the wheel on a path to deeper learning

On 3/23/21 12:41 AM, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote: And while Discord is not at all a replacement for mailing lists in my opinion, I think it's important to realize that it (and other chat based things like it) have their place, especially among the younger groups. I believe that chat / IM

Re: Reinventing the wheel on a path to deeper learning

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 02:42, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote: > > And while Discord is not at all a replacement for mailing lists in my > opinion, I think it's important to realize that it (and other chat based > things like it) have their place, especially among the younger groups. I'm not e

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 09:20:14AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: > "But why it should or shouldn't be clicked..." > > Sorta like most man pages. > They both need prior knowledge to use. We tend to simplify things in order to save time but then the new generation comes in and thinks the simple t

Re: Peering and Caching for Epic Games, Fortnite, et al

On 3/23/21 17:03, Eric Dugas via NANOG wrote: Agreed. The few good examples in Canada are Ubisoft/i3D (now mostly just i3D) and Riot Games. We don't have Valve or Blizzard here. Epic Games seems to use Akamai for downloads/updates and AWS for backend so I don't see how you can cache/optimi

Re: Peering and Caching for Epic Games, Fortnite, et al

Hi folks, To briefly clarify the "now mostly i3D" situation.. i3D.net was acquired by Ubisoft in 2019, and the reason why you're seeing Ubisoft's ASN disappearing from the IXPs where they were present is that we are integrating the networks. Ubisoft's prefixes are being announced downstream of

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 02:46, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote: > > I have used Mattermost but iirc it has very limited access control unless you > have the enterprise version and generally doesn't seem to be made for public > groups. I'm going to chime in here since I admin the DNS-OARC Matter

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 17:11, Seth Mattinen wrote: Okay great for those apps, but if nobody tells me where the new action is... how does that help me? With the list here at least it's on NANOG's website and they tell you how to join in. This feels like you're saying people are not worthy of being i

Re: Peering and Caching for Epic Games, Fortnite, et al

> > For an industry (online gaming) with the most "sensitive" customers to > latency, packet loss, throughput, etc., the online gaming industry is > terrible at peering. That's because they often don't really need to. Content and patch distribution is generally handled via a CDN. For companies t

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 7:40 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: On 3/23/21 16:34, Seth Mattinen wrote: The problem with other "social" formats I've found is that they're often an exclusive club you have to know about through connections or be invited to. You can also be excluded on a whim. What you can learn from

Re: Peering and Caching for Epic Games, Fortnite, et al

Agreed. The few good examples in Canada are Ubisoft/i3D (now mostly just i3D) and Riot Games. We don't have Valve or Blizzard here. Epic Games seems to use Akamai for downloads/updates and AWS for backend so I don't see how you can cache/optimize latency other than getting in Akamai's own AANP

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 16:34, Seth Mattinen wrote: The problem with other "social" formats I've found is that they're often an exclusive club you have to know about through connections or be invited to. You can also be excluded on a whim. What you can learn from that is the new brand marketing models

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/22/21 11:22 PM, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote: I haven't ever used facebook beyond receiving some invitation for an event, and I feel like that's the most common case for people around my age group. (not using Facebook that is) Facebook has effectively become social media for old peop

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

"But why it should or shouldn't be clicked..." Sorta like most man pages. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Mark Tinka" To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 202

Re: Peering and Caching for Epic Games, Fortnite, et al

For an industry (online gaming) with the most "sensitive" customers to latency, packet loss, throughput, etc., the online gaming industry is terrible at peering. There are a few shining examples of what you should do, but then the rest is just content with buying transit from one, two, three pla

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 03:48:02PM -0600, David Siegel wrote: > We already have a group on Facebook, and it has it's uses. Like sharing > group pictures from events and other social-y stuff. yeah, that's all i need, is to get reprimanded at work while reading up on NANOG things, because Wish inj

Re: Peering and Caching for Epic Games, Fortnite, et al

Hey! I know at least for Valve, you can set up a Steam Caching Server, and say do the top 100 games or whatnot and update it every week or so, that might put you in the right direction. LTT did a good video on this a few years ago, and they also posted this guide on their forums to assist with

Re: OT: Re: Facebook and other walled gardens

On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:41:22 -0700 William Herrin wrote: > On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:23 AM Andy Ringsmuth > wrote: > > No. Use a communication method that is available globally, not > > proprietary and doesn’t require me to sell my soul to the devil > > simply to participate. > > Hi Andy, >

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On 3/23/21 11:37, Alfie Pates wrote: More opinions, from someone old and jaded enough to prefer IRC but quite a bit younger than the NANOG mailing list itself! I feel like Mattermost bridged into a private IRC server (Matterbridge is really good at puppetry these days: https://github.com/4

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 11:35, Cynthia Revström wrote: I think this is at least partially true, but I think it is more not wanting to be disrespected at the time they ask these questions. No one was born with this kind of knowledge, and everyone was clueless at some point in time. Totally agree. It is

OAuth for RIRs - There is already any Idea like that?

For me, every day it becomes more evident the need to validate information managed by the RIRs / NIRs / LIRs on separate information platforms. A very simple example is PeeringDB itself, which requires confirmation of correlation between the ASN whois contact and the account that is registering th

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

More opinions, from someone old and jaded enough to prefer IRC but quite a bit younger than the NANOG mailing list itself! I feel like Mattermost bridged into a private IRC server (Matterbridge is really good at puppetry these days: https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge) would cover the widest

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

> Many new, young engineers will also feel more comfortable posting on message > apps because the group is small, well-known and reasonably private, i.e., > they are less afraid about sounding clueless to the whole world, on record, > forever. I think this is at least partially true, but I thin

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

For persons considering mattermost, I would recommend instead looking into a self hosted Matrix + Synapse (matrix protocol server daemon) setup, which is fully open source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) Element is one typical GUI client for it, but there are many options. https:

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On Mon, 22 Mar 2021, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote: If it's the latter, does that mean that you have to constantly keep changing /where/ messages are sent to in order to keep up with the latest and greatest or at least most popular (in your audience) flavor of the day / week / month / year soci

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

Discourse is completely open source. We could run our own instance, if we chose to. Currently, we opted for third party hosting, but we shift to self hosting at anytime. All data is ours, and could be backed up and self-hosted in a few hours. For our beta test we imported the entire mailing list

Re: Reinventing the wheel on a path to deeper learning

On 3/23/21 08:41, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote: And while Discord is not at all a replacement for mailing lists in my opinion, I think it's important to realize that it (and other chat based things like it) have their place, especially among the younger groups. Best advice we can al

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 08:22, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote: Using a chat system they are already familiar with to ask more casual questions is a lot easier for some. Especially if you are thinking of people who are just starting out, some of which will be part of the next generation of network engi

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/23/21 02:22, Tomasz Rola wrote: I am not going to lament much, either. It is just how it goes. On the brighter side, there will also be a minority, who will come to email exactly because they will be aspiring power users. I think there will always be some aspiring power users, so it is n

Re: OT: Re: Facebook and other walled gardens

On 3/22/21 19:22, Andy Ringsmuth wrote: Sigh. It is probably a losing battle. You kids get off my grass! You're right about that last part. The kids are using what they feel gives them value and simplicity. I'm old skool, but I'll be the first one to find a way to reach them via the tool

Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque) interactions.

On 3/22/21 17:55, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote: Part of my struggle is that I fail to see how it scales to poll multiple sites (or app icon notifications) when there are 10s, 100s, or even more things to check.  This is /exactly/ one of the reasons that I *strongly* /prefer/ email, it com

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On 3/22/21 15:14, Mike Hammett wrote: I would love to have HTTP GUI that just does all of the dirty work. However, a sufficient number of people affiliated with that organization do indeed need to be able to CLI their way through the troubleshooting process for when the HTTP GUI inevitably f

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On 3/21/21 16:03, Noah wrote: When we requested for feedback, them gen-z cried out loud for interactions to happen on some social media app through groups or channels, and since they are the target audience and the majority, we settled for discord and telegram which they actively engage o

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On 3/21/21 03:45, Eric Kuhnke wrote: But it's another thing to consider that we have a whole new generation of people who /don't know and don't care/ what's going underneath the GUI and might not be able to do anything with the OS running on bare metal, if they have to. If we intend to a

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On 3/21/21 03:34, David Siegel wrote: ...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network.  As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky. The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosa

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On 3/21/21 01:52, Brielle wrote: This is how I’m viewing a lot of this too. It’s like the posts on stack exchange et al, Reddit, and various forums that are just closed with “fixed” and no details or follow up. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a mailing list with an archive since the s

Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?

On 3/20/21 23:43, Tom Beecher wrote: A large portion of these emails lately have contained some variation of 'contact me off list'. How does that provide any benefit to the community? Is anyone else in the community getting any information about what providers may be on a pathway that would h