On Sun, 13 May 2001, Oded Arbel wrote:
> On Fri, 11 May 2001, Uri Bruck wrote:
>
> > As for testing how things actually work on Windows,
> > The behavior on Windows in widgets and in applications is not necessarily
> > the same. In widgets:
>
> It is consistent across widgets drawn by the OS'
On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 10:36:42AM +, Oded Arbel wrote:
> It is a model to go by. language isn't dependant on alignment, but writing
> direction should be changed when alignment is changed - and hence the
> current language (If I switched the widgets alignment from LTR to RTL, I
> think it's s
On Fri, 11 May 2001, Uri Bruck wrote:
> As for testing how things actually work on Windows,
> The behavior on Windows in widgets and in applications is not necessarily
> the same. In widgets:
It is consistent across widgets drawn by the OS's graphical toolkit. it
isn't consistant in applications
On Fri, May 11, 2001, Ely Levy wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> we are talking about bidi in general if any arabic or japanise speaking
> person want to speak up go ahead.
> I never saw any on those in here sadly enough
How did we get into this kind of discussion
we are talking about bidi in general if any arabic or japanise speaking
person want to speak up go ahead.
I never saw any on those in here sadly enough
Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel
On Thu, 10 May 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| small question has anybody aks
Way back I used to read an Arabic computing mailing, some members of which
were reading this list too.
I'll try to look them up.
On Thu, 10 May 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> small question has anybody aksed our cousins about what they are
> thinking? What are they doing? Maybe all arabi
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:04:35PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> > It depends what you mean by #1: if you mean "switch language and the local
> > direction that goes with it", than you are not missing anything. But Ehud
> > wrote "Direction unchang
small question has anybody aksed our cousins about what they are
thinking? What are they doing? Maybe all arabic speakers had come with a
good solution. and if we want to change the world, thinking about how a user
will act, we must remember that hebrew is not the only bidirectional
lenguage.
OK. I want to give a short summary of things the way I understand them:
We need two sets of key bindings:
1. switch keymap This one is handled by the X server. This is because the
server sends keysyms to programs, and thus the server has to translate
keyboard clicks to symbols.
Currently the c
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:04:35PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> It depends what you mean by #1: if you mean "switch language and the local
> direction that goes with it", than you are not missing anything. But Ehud
> wrote "Direction unchanged, Hebrew", etc., and in that case something was
> missi
On Thu, May 10, 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:36:53PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> > By the way, I think there is another that some key combination we need
> > to do: switch the main direction of the c
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:36:53PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> By the way, I think there is another that some key combination we need
> to do: switch the main direction of the current widget.
Isn't this what we're talking about all the time, discussing the
LeftCtrl-Shift combo?
There should be
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
> Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whatever character) - if I remember correctly
> it just does the normal switch-to-Hebrew thing, and doesn't pass this
> sequence to the application. So if
On Thu, 10 May 2001 00:23:51 +0200, Eran Tromer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ehud Karni wrote:
>
> > I suggest using the right and left arrow keys, such that:
> >
> > Ctrl+Shift+Left ==> R2L direction, Hebrew (or any other R2L font)
> > Ctrl+Shift+Right ==> L2R direction, Latin (or any othe
On Wed, 9 May 2001 15:08:48 +0300, Adi Stav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Why not keep ctrl-shift-key passing the event on to whoever was
> looking for it, but keep ctrl-shift alone as a direction changer?
> I think that's what Windows does, too. I feel that direction change is a
> very Meta thi
Eran Tromer wrote:
> Ctrl-LeftShift-LeftShift==> R2L direction, Hebrew
> Ctrl-RightShift-RightShift ==> L2R direction, Latin
> Alt-LeftShift-LeftShift ==> Direction unchanged, Hebrew
> Alt-RightShift-RightShift ==> Direction unchanged, Latin
>
> E.g., for the first option you press Ctr
Ehud Karni wrote:
> I suggest using the right and left arrow keys, such that:
>
> Ctrl+Shift+Left ==> R2L direction, Hebrew (or any other R2L font)
> Ctrl+Shift+Right ==> L2R direction, Latin (or any other L2R font)
> Alt+Shift+Left ==> Direction unchanged, Hebrew (or any other R2L font)
> A
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001, Ehud Karni wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> > On Wed, 09 May 2001 12:09:04 +0300, Shai Berger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I suggest using the right and left arrow keys, such
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Ehud Karni wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> On Wed, 09 May 2001 12:09:04 +0300, Shai Berger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I suggest using the right and left arrow keys, such that:
>
> Ctrl+Shift+Left ==> R2L direction, Hebrew (or a
On Wed, 09 May 2001 12:09:04 +0300, Shai Berger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Is there any chance you guys will add Left/Right-Ctrl-Shift
> > bindings for changing the editing widgets' strong BiDi directionality?
>
> Suggestions along this line have come up many times, but they are problemati
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:42:05PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> > And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
> > Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whatever character) - if I remember correctly
> > it just does the normal switch
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 07:28:07PM +0300, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
>
> > On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:42:05PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> > > And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
> > > Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whateve
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:42:05PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> > And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
> > Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whatever character) - if I remember correctly
> > it just does the normal switch
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:42:05PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
> Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whatever character) - if I remember correctly
> it just does the normal switch-to-Hebrew thing, and doesn't pass this
> sequence to
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oded Arbel wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> also - you are contradicting yourself - doesn't "Nagata Nasata" apply to
> CTRL_SHFT_F vs. CTRL_SHFT too ?
No. As I was trying to explain (please reread my previous posting), Alt
a
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oded Arbel wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> > This is sick ! come one. let's take a look at a more commonly used
> > Modifier used as a 'command' - the innocent Alt key. what h
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oded Arbel wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> This is sick ! come one. let's take a look at a more commonly used
> Modifier used as a 'command' - the innocent Alt key. what happens if you
> want to press Alt-F, and in the middl
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> This is problematic, because if you want to press ctrl-shift-5 (for example)
> and after pressing ctrl-shift you change your mind, what are you going to
> do? depressing the keys will get you that magic Hebrew-switching combination...
> You can, perhaps,
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> Anyway, my point is that I don't know *anybody*, except Fortran programmers,
> who ever use the Caps-Lock key. What good is it? FOR SHOUTING IN EMAILS?
Well, I also use it when refering to Unicode characters by code or name,
since they are all set in cap
"Nadav Har'El" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Reminds me of a binding XEmacs once had in Fortran mode (oof, here I go
> mentioning Fortran again...): if you pressed ";" (the semicolon key) followed
> by a alphabetic character or two, it was an abbreviation for longer Fortran
> keywords.
It's a ge
Wed 09 May 2001 13:40
> > To: Ivrix Discussions
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Bidi support for Linux
> >
> > On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: Bidi support for
> > Linux":
> > > &qu
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Adi Stav wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> Why not keep ctrl-shift-key passing the event on to whoever was
> looking for it, but keep ctrl-shift alone as a direction changer? I
> think that's what Windows does, too. I feel that direction
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:45:38PM +0300, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:37:08PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> > But note that modern (read Microsoft-influenced) keyboards also have other
> > useless keys which we could "confiscate" for Hebrew use, such as the right
> > Alt k
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:39:34PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> > "Nadav Har'El" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Some time ago I was also using the Caps-Lock
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Boaz Rymland wrote:
> hell, i dont know where this thread came from but I'll surely vote with
> Nadav !
> I suggest a petition to Sun equip' makers to switch the CAPS and CONTROL
> keys back to their original locations !
>
I'm not sure exactly, but I believe that all you nee
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:22:19PM +0300, Shai Berger wrote:
> Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Using Scroll-Lock or Caps-Lock is interesting from the practical point
> > > of view, but from the human interfaces design point of view, it
>
-Original Message-
> From: Nadav Har'El [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wed 09 May 2001 13:40
> To: Ivrix Discussions
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Bidi support for Linux
>
> On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about &qu
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:37:08PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> But note that modern (read Microsoft-influenced) keyboards also have other
> useless keys which we could "confiscate" for Hebrew use, such as the right
> Alt key (which is commonly used for multiple language support), the "Windows"
>
Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>
> On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
>
> >
> > Using Scroll-Lock or Caps-Lock is interesting from the practical point
> > of view, but from the human interfaces design point of view, it
> > obfuscates the meaning of keys whose meaning is originally clear,
>
>
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> "Nadav Har'El" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Some time ago I was also using the Caps-Lock (which I find a totally useless
> > key ever since I stopped programming i
"Nadav Har'El" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001, Shai Berger wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> > not keyboard events (which makes more sense IMHO), and so setting Ctrl-shift to
> >...
>
> This is an excellent
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Shai Berger wrote:
> The alternative, of course, is the perfectly useless Scroll Lock key, which
> even has a unused led attached to it on most keyboards.
But it's really far from the typist's small finger. It is also
unavailable on some keyboards. Try to come up with somethi
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:37:08PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> > > Do we really want to break consistency with the *NIX world for consistency
> > > with Windows? Doesn't that make you feel the least bit awkward? Don't we
> > > ever want to pose a vi
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2001, Shai Berger wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> >
> > Ilya suggested,
> >
> > > Is there any chance you guys will add Left/Right-Ctrl-Shift
> > > bindings for ch
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:37:08PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> > Do we really want to break consistency with the *NIX world for consistency
> > with Windows? Doesn't that make you feel the least bit awkward? Don't we
> > ever want to pose a viable, independent alternative?
Compatibility with the
Ilya suggested,
> Is there any chance you guys will add Left/Right-Ctrl-Shift
> bindings for changing the editing widgets' strong BiDi directionality?
Suggestions along this line have come up many times, but they are problematic.
Many X and non-X *NIX utilities treat Ctrl-shift or Alt-shift as
> Tzafrir Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
> > > > Emacs
> >
> > (There's a bidi-emacs effort, for those of you who don't remember)
>
>
>Some ideas about the right way to implement this have
> where discussed by Eli Zaretskii and others some time ago on one of the
> Bidi/Herbew
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Shai Berger wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
>
> Ilya suggested,
>
> > Is there any chance you guys will add Left/Right-Ctrl-Shift
> > bindings for changing the editing widgets' strong BiDi directionality?
>
> Suggestio
Lotus Notes address has changed. Please
update your address book.
Ilya Konstantinov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 07/05/2001 21:58:17
Please respond to Ilya Konstantinov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL
cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re:
D]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Bidi support for Linux
>
>
> Mati, Rega Ehad ;)
>
> > The suggestions we received can be classified as follows:
>
> I'm affraid you're either mixing or stepping on other toes (projects that are
> done or being done)
>
>
Tzafrir Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Emacs
>
> (There's a bidi-emacs effort, for those of you who don't remember)
It's pretty much on ice, until Emacs-21 will be finally released, Which
should happen very soon now (TM). currently there is a primitive (read
"low level") suppor
Just two issues:
On 07-May-2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> GUI
> QT/KDE
> GTK/Gnome
Tk (as in Tcl/Tk) worth a look. Advantages:
1. Bargain deal. Three languages at once (almost):
Tcl, Perl, Python (assuming portable Tk)
2. Portable solution (Linux, Unices, ev
> Fonts is a major problem. Even for a home system this complicates settings
> (what will you set for the default font of kde? the ugly "fixed"? After
> bothering that much with adding antialising ? ;-) ).
>
> For a more-than-hobbyist environemnt (which may be what IBM is aiming for)
> such solut
On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 03:40:56PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If HTML format is good enough for your needs, the composer in Mozilla is a
> possible solution. At least this is a non-proprietary format.
I second this. Mozilla's Composer is an excellent solution for simple
documents. Is ther
hmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 07/05/2001 12:47:49
Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL
cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Bidi support for Linux
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Anyway, I think we owe some sort of report to this li
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
> On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 02:37:50PM +0300, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> > XFree has the backend (config files for xkbcomp). There is an obvious need
> > for better front-ends for Xkb, that will fully utilize it (more than
> > switch layout. For instance: us
On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 02:37:50PM +0300, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> XFree has the backend (config files for xkbcomp). There is an obvious need
> for better front-ends for Xkb, that will fully utilize it (more than
> switch layout. For instance: use mouse-keys, set keys for layout
> switching, scroll-
Hi Mati, Heetz and everybody
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
> Mati, Rega Ehad ;)
>
> > The suggestions we received can be classified as follows:
>
> I'm affraid you're either mixing or stepping on other toes (projects that are
> done or being done)
>
> > Basic Support:
> > Key
Mati, Rega Ehad ;)
> The suggestions we received can be classified as follows:
I'm affraid you're either mixing or stepping on other toes (projects that are
done or being done)
> Basic Support:
> Keyboard mapping <- already done. Look inside XFree 4.0.3 or the
upcoming XFree-4.1
> F
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Anyway, I think we owe some sort of report to this list, so here it
> is.
Thanks, very nice of you. I must admit I didn't follow this thread
close enough, and a part of it was on ivrix I guess, so a couple
of quick comments with question marks:
> Word processor
Some time ago, I posted on this list a call for suggestions about where to
invest development efforts in order to improve the Bidi support in Linux.
We received a few answers, and we are still considering our options.
Anyway, I think we owe some sort of report to this list, so here it is.
The
In a previous message [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked for tools where he can invest
effort to add/enhance their bidi support.
My question is: can lesstif be regarded as a tool for that matter? If so can
anyone comment on the status of its bidi support?
--
Shaul Karl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
> On Monday 16 April 2001 05:23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > IBM (my employer) has, as you may know, vested interest in Linux. Many of
> > its products are now designed to run (also) on Linux. For these products
> > to succeed on the Israeli market, Li
> You put a lot on emphasis on the "prediction" that even when QT 3 comes
> out it will take 12-18 months to use it (and similarly for Gtk). Why is
> that? Why can't the current KDE be patched to work with QT-3.0 (instead
> of waiting for some vaporware KDE release), and then some distribution
> (
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:43:09PM +0300, Ely Levy wrote:
> > I'm sure many people would be more than gratfull for that especially
> > orgs who need to maintain windows computers only so people
> could read
> > word/ppt docs on them
>
> As to reading Word docs, you can use Abiword to export
On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:43:09PM +0300, Ely Levy wrote:
> I'm sure many people would be more than gratfull for that especially
> orgs who need to maintain windows computers only so people could read
> word/ppt docs on them
As to reading Word docs, you can use Abiword to export most sane Word
H
actually rsync thing was just a mistake...
Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel
On 16 Apr 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
| "Nadav Har'El" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
|
| > P.S. a propos vaporware, where is Redhat 7.1?? I've been hearing rumors
| > about it for 3 days,
I would add something more to Hetz list altough you can get reasonble
hebrew support now with many programs(Hetz you forgot lyx on your list
I think;) the biggest problem that people who doesn't windows around is
office it's impossible to read normaly an hebrew doc on linux.
nither soffice nor ko
"Nadav Har'El" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> P.S. a propos vaporware, where is Redhat 7.1?? I've been hearing rumors
> about it for 3 days, and yesterday a "7.1" directory popped up on Redhat's
> servers (unreadable). But no "respectable" site wrote anythign about this.
> Does anybody know if it'
On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Oren Held wrote:
> Hello Hetz
>
> [...]
> > * keyboard switching - it sounds trivial, but you'll be amazed how much it's
> > not. KDE got this weird combination of CTRL-ALT-K, while I didn't see
> > anything in GNOME about it. Also, You must make sure you have the hebrew map
Hello Hetz
[...]
> * keyboard switching - it sounds trivial, but you'll be amazed how much it's
> not. KDE got this weird combination of CTRL-ALT-K, while I didn't see
> anything in GNOME about it. Also, You must make sure you have the hebrew map
> in your XFree to support it, and support it corr
On Mon, Apr 16, 2001, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
> Ok, pointers, I'll be happy to share pointers with you..
>
> First, you're coming at some "odd" timing - QT 3.0 which have bidi support
> will come out soon as an offic
On Monday 16 April 2001 05:23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> IBM (my employer) has, as you may know, vested interest in Linux. Many of
> its products are now designed to run (also) on Linux. For these products
> to succeed on the Israeli market, Linux needs to have a reasonable support
> for Hebrew
There are the Ivrix mailing-lists, which are dedicated to advancing Hebrew
support on Linux.
For information about them check:
http://www.iglu.org.il/mailing-lists/
and
http://www.ivrix.org.il/
What I would like to see? I suppose usable Gtk+/GNOME and Qt/KDE widgets
that support bidi are wha
IBM (my employer) has, as you may know, vested interest in Linux. Many of
its products are now designed to run (also) on Linux. For these products
to succeed on the Israeli market, Linux needs to have a reasonable support
for Hebrew (Bidi). IBM is ready to invest a significant amount of
deve
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