Hi internals,
Given that there appears to be some appetite to reduce checks for inappropriate
signatures[1] I am wondering if anyone has strong opinions — pro or con — on
removing checks for static methods?
My primary use-case where I would like to see checked relaxed is for static
methods use
On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 02:35, Benas IML wrote:
> Hey internals,
>
> I am proposing to allow void return type for constructors/destructors.
> Note,
> that this is an **optional** and cosmetic-only addition! All of the
> reasoning
> is in the RFC.
>
> RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/constructor_retur
Thanks Kalle.
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues.
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
De: Kalle Sommer Nielsen
Enviado: segunda-feira, 15 de junho de 2020 21:43
Para: Daniel Rodrigues Lima
Cc: PHP Internals
Assunto: Re: [PHP-DEV] About the use of the terms m
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 03.30 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> How is it in the process of creating an RFC...
>
> "1. Email internals@lists.php.net to measure reaction to your intended
> proposal. "
That is the thing, do you intend to provide no upgrade path for your
proposal? You don't menti
Hey internals,
I am proposing to allow void return type for constructors/destructors. Note,
that this is an **optional** and cosmetic-only addition! All of the
reasoning
is in the RFC.
RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/constructor_return_type
Best regards,
Benas
Hi Internals,
The problem with proposal and arguments about these "fixes" is that it's
usually white people arguing about what is and what isn't offensive to
black people. And isn't that the most racist thing about this: white
people deciding for black people?
No, it doesn't make you a better pe
How is it in the process of creating an RFC...
"1. Email internals@lists.php.net to measure reaction to your intended
proposal. "
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues.
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
De: Kalle Sommer Nielsen
Enviado: segunda-feira, 15 de
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 03.09 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> I fully understand the consequences of the discussion we are having here.
> Sorry, but it is not nice to assume things about any PHP member. I didn't
> "throw a ball in the air at random", and I'm not scared by the negative
> res
I fully understand the consequences of the discussion we are having here.
Sorry, but it is not nice to assume things about any PHP member. I didn't
"throw a ball in the air at random", and I'm not scared by the negative
responses themselves, I'm just surprised in a negative way.
--
Cheers,
Dan
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 02.39 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> The simple fact that we don't know how to deal with this type of discussion
> can say a lot about of our community.
> Anyway when I started this discussion I didn't imagine that I would receive
> so many negative feedbacks.
I am
> Last, regarding neutrality. This proposal is literally aimed at adopting
> more-
> neutral language. It's not a partisan move to say that harmful language
> should be avoided.
The problem (imo) is projecting/tying relations and social interactions (past
and present) between people onto machi
The simple fact that we don't know how to deal with this type of discussion can
say a lot about of our community.
Anyway when I started this discussion I didn't imagine that I would receive so
many negative feedbacks.
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues.
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
__
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 02.12 skrev Deleu :
>
> > I am sorry but I do not think you understand the scale of which the
> > PHP project is at.
>
> I'm sorry but you did not get my point. As mentioned above theres 170 places
> mentioning the term blacklist. When I said "the argument of BC without
> I am sorry but I do not think you understand the scale of which the
> PHP project is at.
I'm sorry but you did not get my point. As mentioned above theres 170
places mentioning the term blacklist. When I said "the argument of BC
without knowing the scope" I meant to express that perhaps 1, 10 or
Hi
Den tir. 16. jun. 2020 kl. 00.41 skrev Deleu :
> People arguing BC breaks without even knowing the scope of the change
> clearly show biased.
I am sorry but I do not think you understand the scale of which the
PHP project is at. Any change we make to the language has consequences
for hundreds
Hi!
> Last, regarding neutrality. This proposal is literally aimed at adopting
> more-neutral language. It's not a partisan move to say that harmful
> language should be avoided.
It is a decidedly political claim that long-time industry standard term
with established neutral meaning is suddenly
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 4:41 PM Deleu wrote:
> As white men, we're being dismissive, insensitive and strongly suggesting
> we don't want change. While people may not feel offended by any of these
> terms being discussed, this thread alone already serves as reason for
> people to feel like there's
As additional information, i would like to add that Michał Brzuchalski
(brzuchal), has an open PR in order to change the blacklist terminology in PHP.
https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/5685
--
Greets,
Daniel Rodrigues.
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:41 PM Deleu wrote:
> People arguing BC breaks without even knowing the scope of the change
> clearly show biased.
>
Bold assumption there. There is at least one PR suggesting similar changes
and you can gauge the amount of BC based on it. Unless "blacklist" is not
supp
+1.
While I agree that the status of the php project makes the discussion much
more productive by having an actionable process in place, I do sympathize
with the original author in the thread. You can see that with a simple and
small action that is highlighted in the RFC guide as step 1 (gauge peo
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 4:11 PM, Daniel Rodrigues Lima wrote:
> Hi Larry,
>
> I appreciate your answer, thank you, but i would like to clarify some points:
>
> 1. I found 170 occurrences of the term blacklist - grep -rni
> "blacklist" php-src/, i'm working to understand the impact of changes;
>
Hi Larry,
I appreciate your answer, thank you, but i would like to clarify some points:
1. I found 170 occurrences of the term blacklist - grep -rni "blacklist"
php-src/, i'm working to understand the impact of changes;
2. It’s not about politics, i believe it’s about learning how to be better
Hi internals,
I have opened the vote on the "Remove inappropriate inheritance signature
checks on private methods" RFC. Which can be found here:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/inheritance_private_methods
The voting period will end on 2020-06-29 22:00 UTC.
Thanks to those who participated in the discu
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 2:11 PM, G. P. B. wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 20:05, Lynn wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:46 PM Alain D D Williams
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It is very easy to take offence when none is meant at all. One needs to
> > > look at intent.
> > >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm
Hi,
Am 15.06.20 um 21:14 schrieb Stanislav Malyshev:
Hi!
I was surprised by the many negative responses: Partly just discussing
the term "blacklist" that is perhaps not the main issue. Or telling
people how they should feel and understand words.
Nobody tells you how to feel. But when you cla
Hi!
> I was surprised by the many negative responses: Partly just discussing
> the term "blacklist" that is perhaps not the main issue. Or telling
> people how they should feel and understand words.
Nobody tells you how to feel. But when you claim your supposed feelings
are the reason to censor o
On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 20:05, Lynn wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:46 PM Alain D D Williams
> wrote:
>
> > It is very easy to take offence when none is meant at all. One needs to
> > look at intent.
> >
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm going to disagree here. It's not about intent, it's about impact. You
> ca
Hi,
I was surprised by the many negative responses: Partly just discussing
the term "blacklist" that is perhaps not the main issue. Or telling
people how they should feel and understand words.
Personally, I don't have any issues with "blacklist" - as I do not see
any historical reason for th
Hi Chuck,
About the blacklist , I searched the branch master and found 170 occurrences.
✔ grep -rni "blacklist" php-src/ > blacklist_occurrences.txt
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues
geek...@php.net
https://twitter.com/geekcom2
De: Chuck Adams
Enviado: segunda-feir
Oh man, not this again, not here. Nothing intelligent ever comes out of this.
Looks like most instances in the PHP source refer to mysql constants,
which means the ball would be in mysql's court. Reality is you'd
still need the aliases that contain the offending word.
The other is in ext/standa
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:46 PM Alain D D Williams
wrote:
> It is very easy to take offence when none is meant at all. One needs to
> look at intent.
>
Hi,
I'm going to disagree here. It's not about intent, it's about impact. You
can have the best intentions with the worst results.
When I read
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:00:22AM -0700, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
> Hi!
>
> > I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> > master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> > As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
> > #blackLivesMatte
Hi!
> It is now highly likely that M$ will force changes to these in github
> which is probably part of what has prompted the thread. Once 'new
If and when this will happen, we'll see the official message from
Microsoft/Github and decide how to act. There's no point in discussing
such hypothetica
On 15/06/2020 18:00, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
While your quest for more just and fair world is noble and laudable, I
think your energies are misplaced in this case. Terms like "blacklist"
are established industry terms (and are used also outside the industry -
It is now highly likely that M$ w
> On Jun 15, 2020, at 12:10, Daniel Rodrigues Lima
> wrote:
>
> Hi Nikita,
>
> Thanks for suggestions, I didn't mean to be disrespectful.
> Create an RFC is exactly the next step, but first I needed to understand if
> there was support for that.
>
> How is it in the process of creating an RFC
Hi Nikita,
Thanks for suggestions, I didn't mean to be disrespectful.
Create an RFC is exactly the next step, but first I needed to understand if
there was support for that.
How is it in the process of creating an RFC...
"1. Email internals@lists.php.net to measure reaction to your intended
pr
Hi!
> I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
> #blackLivesMatter for example.
While your quest for more just and fair world is noble and lauda
> On 15 Jun 2020, at 22:43, Daniel Rodrigues Lima
> wrote:
>
> Hi internals,
>
> I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
> #blackLivesMatte
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 5:43 PM Daniel Rodrigues Lima <
danielrodrigues...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi internals,
>
> I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the wo
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 12:36, Reinis Rozitis wrote:
> > The word "master" has 18 meanings in English, according to
> > https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/master - do you propose to outlaw those
> > 17 of them that have nothing to do with slavery, too? What about master's
> > degree, for example?
>
Hi!
> The moment we change blacklist to blocklist, we are essentially
> agreeing to the fact that we should censor words because they contain
> a color in its name, something that is totally unrelated to any human
> race. Are we also gonna change the internal values of the Garbage
> Collector for
> The word "master" has 18 meanings in English, according to
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/master - do you propose to outlaw those
> 17 of them that have nothing to do with slavery, too? What about master's
> degree, for example?
>
I wonder what will astronomers do with 'black hole' ..
p.s
Den man. 15. jun. 2020 kl. 19.15 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> Hi Kalle,
>
> I understand your position.
>
> But i believe that changing retrograde terminologies that refer to bad
> feelings,
> doesn't put us anywhere politically.
It exactly puts us in a political area, because the moment we
пн, 15 июн. 2020 г., 19:15 Daniel Rodrigues Lima <
danielrodrigues...@hotmail.com>:
> But i believe that changing retrograde terminologies that refer to bad
> feelings,
> doesn't put us anywhere politically.
>
>
> It's not about sides, it's about people, and our community is made up of
> people.
>
I don't think that terminology of this type affects people. Or else, they
shouldn't. Comparing "blacklist" with a black person, implying something
pejorative, seems more sick to those who think like that than we actually
understand with the meaning of the word in our midst. I understand that
this c
Hi Kalle,
I understand your position.
But i believe that changing retrograde terminologies that refer to bad feelings,
doesn't put us anywhere politically.
It's not about sides, it's about people, and our community is made up of people.
--
Cheers,
Daniel Rodrigues
geek...@php.net
https://twi
Hi
Den man. 15. jun. 2020 kl. 18.43 skrev Daniel Rodrigues Lima
:
>
> Hi internals,
>
> I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
> master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
> As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
> #blackLivesMat
Hi internals,
I think the time has come for the PHP internals to discuss the use of
master/slave and blacklist terminologies.
As everyone can see, we are going through times of change in the world, see
#blackLivesMatter for example.
Therefore, I propose that we discuss the non-use of terms maste
Maybe it would be good to talk to the developers of that package? They
might have some valuable input on how to design a built-in `enum`
feature.
It might also help them plan out a migration path.
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:18 AM Ilija Tovilo wrote:
>
> Hi Marco
>
> >> I created a new RFC for r
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:17 AM Marco Pivetta wrote:
>
> Hey Ilija,
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:10 PM Ilija Tovilo wrote:
>
> > Hi internals
> >
> > I created a new RFC for reserving keywords we might need in PHP 8.x
> > versions.
> > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/reserve_keywords_in_php_8
> >
> > L
Hi Marco
>> I created a new RFC for reserving keywords we might need in PHP 8.x versions.
>> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/reserve_keywords_in_php_8
>
> This seems messy now, mostly because the `enum` symbol is very much in use in
> very stable packages:
>
> * https://packagist.org/packages/marc-mabe
On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 10:13 AM Benjamin Eberlei
wrote:
> Hello internals,
>
> I have opened voting for four different amendments to the Attributes RFC
>
> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/attribute_amendments
>
> The voting period ends at 2020-06-22 8:00 UTC.
>
> greetings
> Benjamin
>
On the construct
Hey Ilija,
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:10 PM Ilija Tovilo wrote:
> Hi internals
>
> I created a new RFC for reserving keywords we might need in PHP 8.x
> versions.
> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/reserve_keywords_in_php_8
>
> Let me know if there's something you'd like to work on that will
> require a
Hi Kalle, hi Matthew
> We stopped trying to future proof code by soft
> reserving after PHP6 turned out to be nothing and most of the features
> were ported to PHP5.3.
I wanted to reduce resistance to the RFC I'm planning because of BC
breaks in a minor version. For this reason I would personally
Hi internals
> I'd like to introduce another RFC I've been working on:
> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/nullsafe_operator
I've reworded some things and added more information on short
circuiting. Functionality wise the RFC has remained the same.
Since there was little negative feedback I'd like to put
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