Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 03:59:34PM -0400, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 03:13:01PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > > Part of what I meant when I signed the diversity letter was to state a > > belief > > that within a pool of qualified candidates, I believe diversity is > > important en

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 03:13:01PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > Part of what I meant when I signed the diversity letter was to state a belief > that within a pool of qualified candidates, I believe diversity is > important enough that it is valuable to select for diversity even if > this does not ma

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/20/13 12:17 PM, Scott Brim wrote: > On 03/20/13 15:16, Jorge Contreras allegedly wrote: >> I would strongly recommend that legal counsel be consulted before any >> such "list" is produced or used by IETF/IESG/Nomcom. > > Or don't generate it at all. Trying to have a complete list of human

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:01:41PM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote: > > For candidates wherein the above things are roughly equal - or have > > exceeded > > the requirements - diversity is a possible tie-breaker. If the intent is > > to > > emphasize diversity (for some metric) over one of the core skill

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Part of what I meant when I signed the diversity letter was to state a belief that within a pool of qualified candidates, I believe diversity is important enough that it is valuable to select for diversity even if this does not maximize the skills that you enumerated (tech skill, admin skill, works

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, March 20, 2013 10:01 am, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 09:01:01AM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote: >> On Wed, March 20, 2013 8:35 am, Dave Crocker wrote: >> > ps. A small point to watch for, if there is a focus on a defined list >> > of groups, is the difference between discrimin

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/20/2013 10:53 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:09:41AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: Also note that your list is missing something that was raised earlier in the thread, namely the difference between local optimization versus 'global'. There are benefits in having a group m

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/20/2013 12:21 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Keith Moore wrote: On 03/20/2013 11:41 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: Given that folks are still debating whether this years nominees reflected a reasonable diversity (there were 9 women out of 37 nominees), I actually don't

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:09:41AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 3/20/2013 10:01 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > >In general, we want the best people in the job in question. What is "best" > >depends on the position (chair, I*, etc.) but as a technical organization > >that runs on documents, several t

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/20/2013 10:01 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: In general, we want the best people in the job in question. What is "best" depends on the position (chair, I*, etc.) but as a technical organization that runs on documents, several things will bubble to the top: - Technical clue in the matter at hand.

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 09:01:01AM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote: > On Wed, March 20, 2013 8:35 am, Dave Crocker wrote: > > ps. A small point to watch for, if there is a focus on a defined list > > of groups, is the difference between discriminating /against/, versus > > ensuring representation /from/.

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/20/2013 11:21 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Keith Moore wrote: So I guess I've formed the impression that merely being nominated for a position doesn't really mean that a person is available. [MB] You have to keep in mind in the past that the there were "dummi

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Keith Moore wrote: > On 03/20/2013 11:41 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: >> >> Given that folks are still debating whether this years nominees >> reflected a reasonable diversity (there were 9 women out of 37 >> nominees), > > I actually don't think that the number of fema

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/20/2013 11:41 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: Given that folks are still debating whether this years nominees reflected a reasonable diversity (there were 9 women out of 37 nominees), I actually don't think that the number of female nominees is relevant.What is relevant is the number of qualifi

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I'm somewhat worried at the lurch this thread has taken into the land of protected classes, legal advice, etc. I hope we do not go there. Having said that ... since Eric asked ... On 3/20/2013 9:57 AM, Eric Burger wrote: > Going a bit over-the-top: is there an interaction between sex and sexua

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Hi Dave, On Wed, March 20, 2013 8:35 am, Dave Crocker wrote: > ps. A small point to watch for, if there is a focus on a defined list > of groups, is the difference between discriminating /against/, versus > ensuring representation /from/. Active prohibition vs. active > solicitation. The exc

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I don't think anyone is asking for strict compliance to a particular country's laws, although, one could debate that since ISOC is the mother organization for IETF that it might be reasonable to look at the laws in the regions where ISOC is incorporated. My understanding, however, is that since IET

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/20/2013 4:33 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: Let's not play Internet lawyers about this. How Jari's design team bring in real lawyers at the appropriate time? Or not. There's an important choice between focusing on the sufficiency of representation from a defined set of population groups, versu

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

As I understand it, Jorge is highlighting that he is not an expert in employment and Equal opportunity law. That is a specific expertise. On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:20 AM, tsg wrote: > On 03/20/2013 07:16 AM, Jorge Contreras wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Margaret Wasserman > wrote

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, March 20, 2013 7:16 am, Jorge Contreras wrote: > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Margaret Wasserman > wrote: > >> >> Hi Stewart, >> >> On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:04 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> > Age >> > Disability >> > Gender reassignment >> > Marriage and civil partnership >> > Pregnancy a

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/20/2013 07:16 AM, Jorge Contreras wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Margaret Wasserman mailto:m...@lilacglade.org>> wrote: Jorge - did I miss something here - isnt this your job? If not why are you here? Let me respond that further - I believe that there are any number of bo

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/20/13 15:16, Jorge Contreras allegedly wrote: > I would strongly recommend that legal counsel be consulted before any > such "list" is produced or used by IETF/IESG/Nomcom. Or don't generate it at all. Trying to have a complete list of human attributes to diversify to looks like an engineer

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/20/2013 08:13 AM, Martin Rex wrote: The monetary and time resources necessary to fill an I* position adequately appear quite significant to me, and I believe it would be hard to fill them without strong support from an employer which covers the monetary investment. Agreed. But this is a

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Going a bit over-the-top: is there an interaction between sex and sexual orientation? Can one count as the other? On Mar 20, 2013, at 8:10 AM, Riccardo Bernardini wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Margaret Wasserman > wrote: > > Hi Stewart, > > On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:04 AM, St

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I do not really think the legal angle is helpful in resolving this problem. (Which country's laws do we need to comply with?) Let's treat these legal ideas as considerations that we should be thinking about, not something where we should be striving for strict compliance. --Richard On Wed, Ma

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Jorge Contreras wrote: > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Margaret Wasserman > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Stewart, >> >> On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:04 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> > Age >> > Disability >> > Gender reassignment >> > Marriage and civil partnership >> > Pregnanc

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

IESG, with name/area: IAB, with name/affiliation: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Jorge Contreras wrote: > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Margaret Wasserman > wrote: > >> >> Hi Stewart, >> >> On Mar 20, 2013, a

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > Hi Stewart, > > On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:04 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > Age > > Disability > > Gender reassignment > > Marriage and civil partnership > > Pregnancy and maternity > > Race > > Religion and belief > > Sex > > Sexual orien

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I would suggest John that the real diversity the IETF needs is transparency in its process and a competent IPR rule set which meets the same set of legal hurdles people do in the commercial world so to speak. I would also suggest that the idea of splitting all of these contractually binding pr

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

--On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 06:53 -0400 Margaret Wasserman wrote: >... > I am not suggesting that we start collecting or publishing > this information, just saying that it makes it hard to tell > whether our leadership is reasonably representative of the > community in some of these areas. >

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Riccardo Bernardini wrote: > if I do not know the, say, sexual orientation of a candidate, I cannot > discriminate (even on a subconscious level) using that information. > > Hi Riccardo, I hope you are not suggesting candidates to remain in closet, to not be disc

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > On Mar 12, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: > > > > I'd love to get out of this rat hole. Perhaps the signatories of the > > open letter can restate the problem they see so it isn't made in terms of > > race and gender. > > The letter specifically mentioned th

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > Hi Stewart, > > On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:04 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > Age > > Disability > > Gender reassignment > > Marriage and civil partnership > > Pregnancy and maternity > > Race > > Religion and belief > > Sex > > Sexual orie

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Let's not play Internet lawyers about this. How Jari's design team bring in real lawyers at the appropriate time?

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 20/03/2013 10:53, Margaret Wasserman wrote: Hi Stewart, On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:04 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: Age Disability Gender reassignment Marriage and civil partnership Pregnancy and maternity Race Religion and belief Sex Sexual orientation The U.S. has a similar (although not identica

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Hi Stewart, On Mar 20, 2013, at 2:04 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > Age > Disability > Gender reassignment > Marriage and civil partnership > Pregnancy and maternity > Race > Religion and belief > Sex > Sexual orientation The U.S. has a similar (although not identical) list, and it may vary a bit

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/19/2013 11:04 PM, Stewart Bryant wrote: Margret this is the IETF, it regularly sets aside law to create its own lies about what it is and is not capable of in a legal context - but that is all about to change I think... Todd On 19/03/2013 12:59, Margaret Wasserman wrote: On Mar 12, 2

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 19/03/2013 12:59, Margaret Wasserman wrote: On Mar 12, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: I'd love to get out of this rat hole. Perhaps the signatories of the open letter can restate the problem they see so it isn't made in terms of race and gender. The letter specifically mentioned the

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mar 12, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: > > I'd love to get out of this rat hole. Perhaps the signatories of the > open letter can restate the problem they see so it isn't made in terms of > race and gender. The letter specifically mentioned the axes of race, gender, geographic locatio

RE: Diversity of IETF Leadership

At 1:54 PM + 3/12/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: increasing "diversity" on the IESG by appointing a few rocks and a mollusc OK, that is funny. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only -- Randomly selected tag: --- [Y]ou

RE: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I suspect that the often-subtle differences in technical perception on IETF technologies between sexes, races, and languages are much less pronounced than the substantial differences in technical orientation between vendors, ISPs, academics, governments, and end users. If we are consistently see

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I see some rough consensus that more diversity/a wider spectrum of viewpoints (across various metrics) in various ISTF groups would be helpful, with support for Arturo's language: The problem is to bring new people (younger people, women, from more countries, different languages, etc.) to wr

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

At 11:19 AM 3/12/2013, Mary Barnes wrote: >On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> At 07:56 AM 3/12/2013, Dan Harkins wrote: >>>While these studies are interesting and thought provoking, I think it is >>>wrong, and very dangerous, to use these studies to justify blanket >>>stat

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Hi Margaret, At 06:00 AM 3/11/2013, Margaret Wasserman wrote: I've been thinking, for instance, that one thing we could add to our list of immediate actions is for IESG members to review their directorate membership and, if it makes sense, attempt to increase the diversity of their directorates

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Title: Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership At 1:08 AM -0400 3/12/13, Margaret Wasserman wrote: On Mar 11, 2013, at 6:54 PM, Dan Harkins <dhark...@lounge.org> wrote:  In other words, the statement that gender and racial diversity in groups makes them "smarter" has no basis in f

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Tue, March 12, 2013 10:35 am, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 3:54 PM -0700 3/11/13, Dan Harkins wrote: > >> Do you feel that >> an all-female group is stupider than a similarly sized group that is >> equal parts male and female? > > Based on my own experience, I believe that a broad range of >

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Hi - > From: "Dan Harkins" > To: "Margaret Wasserman" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 3:56 AM > Subject: Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership ... > If there's some bias involved in the Nomcom's selection process then > point it out an

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

At 3:54 PM -0700 3/11/13, Dan Harkins wrote: Do you feel that an all-female group is stupider than a similarly sized group that is equal parts male and female? Based on my own experience, I believe that a broad range of background and experience improves the quality of decision making of

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 2:03 PM -0500 3/11/13, Mary Barnes wrote: > >> To suggest that >> someone is not qualified to be an AD because they shed tears in a >> contentious situation is unacceptable IMHO. > > > I'm confused as to why that would be considered

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/11/2013 03:33 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: ISOC is doing a great job with the fellowship program. There is just a few people each meeting but it is a good start. I'm glad they are doing it but it is a drop in the bucket. Our processes are considerably biased against anyone who is n

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

At 2:03 PM -0500 3/11/13, Mary Barnes wrote: To suggest that someone is not qualified to be an AD because they shed tears in a contentious situation is unacceptable IMHO. I'm confused as to why that would be considered a reason not to appoint someone, regardless of gender. Is it because t

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 2013-03-12, at 12:59, Hector Santos wrote: > There lies the fine line of conflict of interest that I believe the IETF has > done a tremendous job in keeping in control with diverse disciplines and > philosophies well considered. The RFC format by definition, Were you referring the fact th

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

+1 There lies the fine line of conflict of interest that I believe the IETF has done a tremendous job in keeping in control with diverse disciplines and philosophies well considered. The RFC format by definition, its style, the open WGs, is all geared towards diverse audiences. On 3/12/2013

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/12/2013 11:00 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: Seriously - diversity is generally good. I think we all get that. One of the ironies about this topic in the IETF is that our philosophy of open access to our documents and open participation in our activities is predicated on the belief that

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

> "Randall" == Randall Gellens writes: Randall> selection bias. But, as several people have noted, if we Randall> grow the IETF pool Randall> as a whole, that helps, and if we remove barriers to Randall> serving on I* that helps Randall> as well. I think that finding w

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Le 2013-03-12 à 11:19, Mary Barnes a écrit : > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Michael StJohns > wrote: >> At 07:56 AM 3/12/2013, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> While these studies are interesting and thought provoking, I think it is >>> wrong, and very dangerous, to use these studies to justify bla

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: > At 07:56 AM 3/12/2013, Dan Harkins wrote: >>While these studies are interesting and thought provoking, I think it is >>wrong, and very dangerous, to use these studies to justify blanket >>statements about intelligence, group or otherwise.

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

At 07:56 AM 3/12/2013, Dan Harkins wrote: >While these studies are interesting and thought provoking, I think it is >wrong, and very dangerous, to use these studies to justify blanket >statements about intelligence, group or otherwise. I'm laughing a bit about this thread. For example, there's al

RE: Diversity of IETF Leadership

ld set out their thoughts on those parameters. Adrian > -Original Message- > From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian > E > Carpenter > Sent: 12 March 2013 08:58 > To: Dan Harkins > Cc: ietf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Diversi

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

As a minority raised thru the corporate rank, as stated below I think it is offensive too and unfair to historical facts. But overall, I think it is just the wrong choice of words. All it could suggest is that there are more different views and experiences in the "synergistic" effect of final

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Speaking as a successful by-product of the american Affirmative Action and Equal Opportunities programs of the 70s and early 80s, I would suggest the IETF needs to work two small baby steps: - Improving its Marketing, - What is its products? - What will attract all/any groups? -

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mon, March 11, 2013 10:08 pm, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > On Mar 11, 2013, at 6:54 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: > >> In other words, the statement that gender and racial diversity in >> groups makes them "smarter" has no basis in fact. Do you feel that >> an all-female group is stupider than a si

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 11/03/2013 20:02, Dan Harkins wrote: >> In addition to the moral and social issues involved, diversity of >> leadership across several axes (race, geographic location, gender >> and corporate affiliation) is important for three practical reasons: >> >> - It is a well-established fact that di

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mar 11, 2013, at 6:54 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: > In other words, the statement that gender and racial diversity in > groups makes them "smarter" has no basis in fact. Do you feel that > an all-female group is stupider than a similarly sized group that is > equal parts male and female? Really?

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

OK, I'll bite. I would by no means use the word "stupider", but I do think that a group of females and males would take better decisions that a group of only-males or only-females. /as On 11/03/2013 18:54, Dan Harkins wrote: > In other words, the statement that gender and racial

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mon, March 11, 2013 1:39 pm, Rhys Smith wrote: > On 11 Mar 2013, at 16:02, Dan Harkins wrote: > >>>- It is a well-established fact that diverse groups are smarter >>> and make better decisions than less-diverse groups. >> >> I would really like to see this statement either backed up

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

> From: Scott Brim > > On 03/11/13 14:41, Mary Barnes allegedly wrote: > > This year's set of nominees was far more diverse than in the past and > > yet the IESG will still be entirely male and entirely North > > American/European. Of course, only people that bothered to use the > > tool to inpu

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

At 1:43 PM -0400 3/11/13, Arturo Servin wrote: My opinion is that we agree we have a situation that we should improve, but also we shouldn't focus on the nomcom process, the problem is not about how we select people (it may help but it is not the root problem). The problem is to bring

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

At 9:32 AM -0800 3/11/13, Melinda Shore wrote: notably lacking among the leadership are people who don't work for large manufacturers and people who have first-hand knowledge of network architectures and management practices in non-western countries. I think that makes us weaker. So what

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

At 4:41 PM + 3/11/13, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: If you want to encourage the noncom to consider diversity in its deliberations, fine. If the nomcom itself is diverse, this should help with some forms of selection bias. But, as several people have noted, if we grow the IETF pool as a who

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 11 Mar 2013, at 16:02, Dan Harkins wrote: >>- It is a well-established fact that diverse groups are smarter >> and make better decisions than less-diverse groups. > > I would really like to see this statement either backed up by > peer-reviewed apolitical scientific research or with

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/11/2013 3:03 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: yes women are more likely to shed tears when we are upset than to yell or curse or physically push someone around (which I have been at these meetings) I was on the Nomcom that Mary chaired. Nomcom's internal activities are confidential. In spite o

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

> In addition to the moral and social issues involved, diversity of > leadership across several axes (race, geographic location, gender > and corporate affiliation) is important for three practical reasons: > > - It is a well-established fact that diverse groups are smarter > and make be

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > A person's sex is of course only one of the recognized "protected > characteristics". > > http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/new-equality-act-guidance/protected-characteristics-definitions/ > > The full set is: > > Age >

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Ted, > Efforts to increase to diversity are a very different optimization--by > making more visible that opportunities are present for all, these > initiatives attempt to increase the pool of talent over time. Thanks for your thoughts. I thought the above was an important observation. Jari

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

ISOC is doing a great job with the fellowship program. There is just a few people each meeting but it is a good start. Now, we need to figure out how to bring more people and prepare them to write RFCs and being leaders. Not easy at all as Keith said. Regards, as

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

A person's sex is of course only one of the recognized "protected characteristics". *http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/new-equality-act-guidance/protected-characteristics-definitions/* The full set is: Age Disability Gender ressignment Marriage and civil partnetship Pregna

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/11/13 15:03, Mary Barnes allegedly wrote: > [MB] ... What I'm looking for is for IETF to recognize > that there may be a bias in how these decisions are made and to make a > conscientious decision to be aware of how this bias may impact their > decisions. Sounds good. +1. Thanks.

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Scott Brim wrote: > On 03/11/13 14:41, Mary Barnes allegedly wrote: >> This year's set of nominees was far more diverse than in the past and >> yet the IESG will still be entirely male and entirely North >> American/European. Of course, only people that bothered t

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I signed the letter and my answers to your questions are below [MB]. I would posit that a number of others have answers not unlike my own. Mary. On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: > I'm not sure I have enough data to evaluate the comments in this letter. I > don't disagree

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/11/13 14:41, Mary Barnes allegedly wrote: > This year's set of nominees was far more diverse than in the past and > yet the IESG will still be entirely male and entirely North > American/European. Of course, only people that bothered to use the > tool to input comments would see that. So, i

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Hi Melinda, I certainly agree that there are challenges in getting those who work for smaller companies to participate in the IETF (for known reasons). I believe the IETF, however, does better than other organizations that have expensive membership fees. The country/regional participation is

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: > Hi, > > I have been reading the comments in the list and although I am not > making a specific reply to any message I would like to make some comments. > > So far I have read "I agree we need some diversity" or "I agree that

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/11/2013 1:03 PM, Keith Moore wrote: On 03/11/2013 01:43 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: My opinion is that we agree we have a situation that we should improve, but also we shouldn't focus on the nomcom process, the problem is not about how we select people (it may help but it is not the root p

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mar 10, 2013, at 1:57 PM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: > On 3/10/2013 5:22 AM, IETF Diversity wrote: > > I'm listed as a signatory and agree that this is important. > >> There are several steps that could be taken, in the short-term within >> our existing BCPs, to address this problem: >> >>

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

>> My opinion is that we agree we have a situation that we should improve, >> but also we shouldn't focus on the nomcom process, the problem is not >> about how we select people (it may help but it is not the root problem). >> The problem is to bring new people (younger people, women, from m

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 03/11/2013 01:43 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: My opinion is that we agree we have a situation that we should improve, but also we shouldn't focus on the nomcom process, the problem is not about how we select people (it may help but it is not the root problem). The problem is to bring new p

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mar 11, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: > Hi, > > I have been reading the comments in the list and although I am not > making a specific reply to any message I would like to make some comments. > > So far I have read "I agree we need some diversity" or "I agree that > mo

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I'd agree to the more general statement that people from large commercial organisations are dominating, and I'd argue that this is due to the cost (in time and finanically) of doing reasonably high level IETF work. This also restricts the available pool, and furthermore means our leadership is at m

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Le 2013-03-11 à 13:43, Arturo Servin a écrit : > Hi, > > I have been reading the comments in the list and although I am not > making a specific reply to any message I would like to make some comments. > > So far I have read "I agree we need some diversity" or "I agree that > more d

RE: Diversity of IETF Leadership

This is a great suggestion. Bonnie L. Gorsic -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Arturo Servin Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 10:43 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership Hi, I have been reading the

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Hi, I have been reading the comments in the list and although I am not making a specific reply to any message I would like to make some comments. So far I have read "I agree we need some diversity" or "I agree that more diversity is better". Also I have read "Please no quotas", "d

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/11/2013 9:23 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > So, I said this once before on a previous thread, but I still believe that > this analysis is wrong. From an organiational perspective, the aim of > fostering > diversity isn't "political correctness", it's enabling a larger pool > of candidates. I tend

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote:> > Yes, diversity is a good thing, and I'm all for it. However, I don't think it > is a > fundamental goal; the fundamental goal is (as Jari said) to get the best > people for the job from the available talent pool. I don't know that > po

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 3/11/2013 11:41 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: On Mar 10, 2013, at 1:57 PM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: On 3/10/2013 5:22 AM, IETF Diversity wrote: I'm listed as a signatory and agree that this is important. There are several steps that could be taken, in the short-term within our existing BCP

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

Le 2013-03-11 à 12:41, "Fred Baker (fred)" a écrit : > > On Mar 10, 2013, at 1:57 PM, Spencer Dawkins > wrote: > >> On 3/10/2013 5:22 AM, IETF Diversity wrote: >> >> I'm listed as a signatory and agree that this is important. >> >>> There are several steps that could be taken, in the short

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mar 10, 2013, at 1:57 PM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: > On 3/10/2013 5:22 AM, IETF Diversity wrote: > > I'm listed as a signatory and agree that this is important. > >> There are several steps that could be taken, in the short-term within >> our existing BCPs, to address this problem: >> >>

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

I'm not sure I have enough data to evaluate the comments in this letter. I don't disagree with the general goal "diversity is good". I do believe that the proposed actions are not realistic in that they would tend to make the Nomcom process even more moribund. I will note that Appendix A sugg

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On Mar 10, 2013, at 10:20 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > > Diversity of IETF Leadership begins at the bottom. It is challenging for > reasons which I unfortunately cannot describe. I am supportive of the > effort. I am not comfortable with quotas. My preference is to see that the > IETF is acce

Re: Diversity of IETF Leadership

On 11/03/2013 02:47, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 2:45 PM -0800 3/10/13, Melinda Shore wrote: > >> And I'll go on record requesting that folks think >> pretty carefully before saying that including something >> other than white western guys means lowering standards. > > I don't think anyone has

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