Hi gang,
long e-mail, with analysis of pros and cons, and some policy
draft on some issues Berin didn't address yet last time I checked.
Disclaimers
---
a question at hand: how do we make clear to everyone that a
project and all its related assets are "under incubation" (along
with what th
Sam Ruby wrote:
I would go further. Essentially, a release by a podling would require
a vote by the incubator PMC to do so.
a release by *any* project requires its supervising PMC to vote
it through. Since for podlings, the supervising PMC is by definition
the incubator PMC, you're not going any
Stephen McConnell wrote:
BZZZT, BZZZT, the above statement presumes that "release" and
"publication" are one and the same. The distinction between a vote to
"release" and a vote to "publish" is in my option an import aspect of
active community based decision making. Communities vote to release,
Hi Robert,
AFAIK, there is no policy. As to practice...some of the incubating projects
participate in gump (jakarta.apache.org/gump), some don't. I would recommend
all java-based projects participate in gump as its the only in its kind :D
cheers,
- Leo
robert burrell donkin wrote:
does anyone k
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Because of this, I would suggest that we remove the "draft" status on
our policy docs and simply use them as our guide, that will change in
need without having to go through tedious votes when there is good
consensus.
Objections?
nope!
- Leo
-
Hi gang,
I received an e-mail directed to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
this morning. That must mean I'm subscribed :D. I also saw
my (mispelled!) name on the website under the heading
"PMC".
Neat (happy to be here!), but I must say I'm a bit puzzled
with how that came to be. Here's what happened:
I wasn't as
Hi gang,
it's puzzled me how much effort some of us have been putting
in /normative/ documentation of policy, process, roles and
responsibilities. It must be a programmer thing :D
Who needs "normative" documentation? Why?
- the board knows what incubation means
- the incubator PMC knows what incu
Hi gang,
what's the exact seperation between these two? The
website (http://incubator.apache.org/howtoparticipate.html#Mailing+lists)
doesn't list them...I'd like to update, but I'm not sure
what description to post.
cheers!
- LSD
---
Berin Lautenbach wrote:
However - I have absolutely no wish to drag this out.
+1. You're doing the work, there's no strong objections (just
what probably will be proven to be very subtle differences of
opinion if we do drag this out), so just get on with it. We can
always change it later!
cheers,
I have also posted detailed instructions to the geronimo list
describing how to get the geronimo site built and committed in
the appropriate location:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&msgNo=4475
None of the committers felt like answering at the time :/
I maintain that its best
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
The /www/incubator.apache.org/ directory tree on minotaur contains
both a checked-out incubator-site *and* the generated output of a
forrestbot via incubator. It obviously can't be both.
or can it be?
IIRC, forrestbot just generates the website, then commits changes to
th
Henri Yandell wrote:
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
Personally, I've had my fill of this kind of crap being left on
our public infrastructure. I shouldn't have to wait days to update
a trivial website. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I am going to
replace it with Anakia tomorro
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Proposal:
1 - every project site sources stay in the project CVS
sure.
2 - every project has this URL space where to publish the site:
http://incubator.apache.org/projectname
+1 (or under the wings of their TLP if they wish)
3 - every project has an incubation sta
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
2 - every project has this URL space where to publish the site:
http://incubator.apache.org/projectname
+1 (or under the wings of their TLP if they wish)
Actually this is the point. I tend to think that they should
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
What do you think?
+1 to redundancy. -0 on making it an 'absolute' requirement.
We need to make sure we ourselves don't get so completely
lost in figuring out the right process that there is no energy
left to apply it.
cheers!
- Leo
-
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
What do others think?
Two options:
1) do a transparent rewrite of incubator.apache.org/lenya
to cocoon.apache.org/lenya (ie, not a redirect)
2) search-and-replace to replace links to cocoon.apache.org/lenya
with incubator.apache.org/lenya
or
assert* whether lenya incub
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Committers could be given commit access long before having project
member status, and would thus be able to commit but not vote. This
makes it possible to keep a high bar for membership of the project but
a lower bar for committing.
Is this possible/wanted?
I think I
Noel made an interesting suggestion on the PMC list:
---
Alternatively, the PPMC could consist of the Incubator PMC, the destination
PMC (in cases where there is one), and project Committers. In that case,
there is a single streamlined process, without additional interconnects.
This does have the
Jason van Zyl wrote:
I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get a
Wiki setup and JIRA.
maybe that's because you're watching :D
seriously...some food for thought perhaps...
the wiki is the first bit of ASF infrastructure I'm getting more than
passively involved in.
Jaso
Jason van Zyl wrote:
On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 11:32, Leo Simons wrote:
Jason volunteered, I volunteered, we were given access easily enough,
proposals were accepted easily enough, and then it just took weeks for
us to get things in shape. That's got little to do with process or
committees
Jason van Zyl wrote:
what exactly do you doubt?
That somewhere between getting access and now, in your moment of fire of
trying to get something done you were stopped in your tracks because you
were probably waiting on something else to happen first. I should have
explained that better. My pe
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Other votes?
+1, generally agreeing with all other comments made so far.
- Leo
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Noel J. Bergman wrote:
It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
inappropriate.
The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name
because it's perceived to be controversial by some.
Unle
Aaron Bannert wrote:
[ -0 ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
[ -0 ] - Punt the decision to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ -1 ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up with any
other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
I don't like multiple-choice votes
Aaron Bannert wrote:
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 08:53:55PM +0100, Leo Simons wrote:
Aaron Bannert wrote:
[ -0 ] - Let them keep "Geronimo" as the official name.
[ -0 ] - Punt the decision to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ -1 ] - Disallow "Geronimo" but allow the committers to come up
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
How is it to be done?
Shoot.
JFDI applies. I think every PMC member and every ASF
member that had something to say about the PPMC idea
was basically in favour. We have consensus on the broad
plan; enough of a mandate to get things underway. Create
a PPMC battle plan and
Jason van Zyl wrote:
What's going to happen with AltRMI and the FtpServer? They just sit in
the incubator indefinitely? There's no IP issues as these came from
within Apache anyway? If an incubated codebase has no slated home within
then I would ask how it even landed here in the first place?
Both
Jay Zylstra wrote:
I'll interpret the lack of response to mean this idea doesn't fit
Apache. Okay. But since the need remains for a free gallery of common
Web app icons (document, search, print, etc.), does anyone have a
suggestion of where such a project would fit, or is anyone aware of an
exis
Jason van Zyl wrote:
I would propose those documents be changed to state that what is
outlined above is a prerequisite for entry into the incubator.
Is this something that requires a member vote as it affects everyone
here because the production of useful software is what we're doing here
at Apach
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Hence I ask to vote
It's a big thing to vote on all at once. I still have
question marks with some points. What I'm looking
for is some signal that we are moving in a direction
where the TLPs will actually *want* to follow
incubation procedure (which would be a good sign
Aaron Bannert wrote:
Also, it seems to me that any Incubator PMC member who has joined
a PPMC list is already acting in the role of "Mentor"? Now that we
have PPMCs, we don't need to have an explicit role of "Mentor"
anymore. Can we get rid of these complicated rules and roles and
terms now that w
Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
The Axion Database project has voted to become a part of the Apache DB
project, and the DB PMC has accepted that proposal. (See below for the
proposal and additional information.)
[ X ] +1 Accept the Axion for incubation.
[ ] 0 Abstain
[ ] -1 Reject Axion for incubation, I
Hi gang!
I'll be with my folks this christmas, so won't be reading e-mail until
dec 30 or so. To everyone:
Gozhqq Keshmish!*
- Leo Simons
* apparently the Western Apache translation of "merry christmas"
---
Hi gang,
could someone (mentor or someone else involved) please
start writing and filling out a status file for spamassassin?
It's kind of difficult figuring out where we are with
things :D
Quick howto:
checkout 'incubator'
cd incubator/site/projects
cp incubation-status-template.cwiki spamassass
;ll make a little noise around the OSS java community, see if this
attracts some interest, if it has the potential of becoming a real project.
If so, we'll start incubation.
Why not start incubation immediately? IMHO, we need to get a feel
for the code and the people involved with the code fi
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Look at things from the other way round. For all practical purposes
you are the defacto point-man with respect to the Directory project.
From the point-of-view of people on the directory project you are the
man they can turn to privaetly, ask questions, seek advice, a
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Berin Lautenbach wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
IMHO, as long as a project still requires a "point man" (or
as long as the PMC still requires such a person in order to
be kept up to date of what is happening in the directory
project), the project is not ready for
Berin Lautenbach wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
Absolutely! A good test of maturity. If the mentor is doing
absolutely nothing and things are going well, then there is no need
for a mentor and quite possibly no need for the project to be in
incubation anymore.
Exactly!
So you are saying there
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
Berin Lautenbach wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
Absolutely! A good test of maturity. If the mentor is doing
absolutely nothing and things are going well, then there is no
need for a mentor and quite possibly no need for the project to
be in incubation
Stephen McConnell wrote:
My response was related to the on-going debate about invididuals
versus group reponsibilities. What I described is role of an
individual lined to both an incubating project and to Apache at
large. I descibed the benefit that such a "real-person" can bring to
a new gr
Hi Matt,
(IANAL)
Matt Liotta wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. At this point, I am reluctant to release
the code under an Apache style license without a community behind it.
I don't want to see our code go into some proprietary project and
never benefit the community because the actual ope
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Incubator not interested in providing advice?
Incubator; Could you please provide me with a "process" on how to proceed
with this "IP transfer", as the "process" outlined on
http://incubator.apache.org seems to be more extensive than is the case here
(will not be a subprojec
http://www.apache.org/licenses/.
CLA was sent in kind-of "last year", and according to Andreas teh software
grant has also been faxed in by now.
good! We'll have to wait for an acknowledgement from the secretary (Jim)
that its in. In the meantime, lets do the code audit :D
--
vote on that as well? If so, should that vote occur
before or after the initial import?
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
---
Weblog -- http://leosimons.com/
IoC Component Glue -- http://jicarilla.org/
Article
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Thursday 08 January 2004 07:47, Leo Simons wrote:
Do we require a PMC vote on that as well? If so, should that vote occur
before or after the initial import?
My proposal is that we do a combined vote at the Avalon PMC;
* Acceptance of this codebase
with
* Andreas as a
others...they all are used to fill similar roles.
It might be a good idea for you to review these projects and investigate
possible co-operation with one or more of these.
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
-
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Matt Liotta wrote:
I didn't see a reply from anyone in regard to my message below. Just
curious if the interested parties have seen it.
saw your message, no time to look at it yet, sorry. I've flagged things
for follow-up later on.
busy as always :D
cheers,
-
Center for Supercomputing
Applications, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
yes.
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
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#x27; that something should be done and spent
time on is something that I really don't enjoy at all, so those 4 hours
spent count double IMHO.
Do with this data what you please. The conclusion I personally draw from
it is "we should stop complaining about process, and JFDI".
--
c
ace your votes:
[ ] +1 -- yes
[ ] ±0 -- abstain
[ ] -1 -- no
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
PS: I started this vote on the PMC list, but Roy pointed out it belongs
here. PMC members, vote whereever you like (but suffer Roy's wrath
:D)...I'll figure things ou
Ceki Gülcü wrote:
Given that no one has yet answered, probably my question was silly.
nah, the subject line threw me off...I suspect many people are ignoring
the rest of the thread :D
However, I still don't know where the STATUS file should be placed.
according to incubator policy, inside incubat
wiki
and double check to make sure all items mentioned are correct and any
mentioned action items have been properly executed before commencing import.
thanks to everyone who helped make the incubation process go as smooth
as possible.
mentor to summarize things, present an argument, run and tally
the vote, etc.
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
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quot; if we don't
really need to. Just take a look at what people have said, what
consensus seems to be, etc. Moreover, take a look at what *you* think.
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
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on.
While it'd be good to be more conservative about signatures, large parts
of apache aren't at the moment. So I'm not sure its an issue the
Incubator needs to solve...more something for the entire ASF.
IMHO!
more hours (invested by various people, including me) than just
taking care of the paperwork. And that kind of discussion is less fun
than paperwork, imnsho :D
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
---
Weblog -- http://leosimon
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Seems like Gump will be going TLP. I am just going to unofficially start
incubation while votes take place, procedures are hammered out, etc etc.
Projects being promoted to TLP don't have to go through the Incubator.
Norm
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
Dims, as I have mentioned before, we cannot vote on such things
on a private list
for the record: +1
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
---
Weblog -- http://leosimons.com/
IoC Component Glue -- http
Steve Viens wrote: [Graduate jUDDI from the Apache Incubator]
I'll have to +0 this one as I haven't kept track of jUDDI at all. Good
luck fellas!
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
---
Weblog -- http://leosimon
e what
they think. Common sense applies.
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
---
Weblog -- http://leosimons.com/
IoC Component Glue -- http://jicarilla.org/
Articles &am
s for our
group as well.
hehehe. do ask for an ASF-wide license too ;)
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
---
Weblog -- http://leosimons.com/
Component Community -- http://componentplanet.org/
Component Glue --
David Sean Taylor wrote:
The Portals PMC would like to graduate Pluto out of incubator into the
Apache Portals project.
+1. Good luck to pluto!
We believe we have met the requirements for exiting incubation
except for updating the status file, which someone should do ASAP :-D
--
cheers,
- Leo
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
[ X ] +1 - The Geronimo project has met the requirements
for incubation and will be recommended to the
board for TLP status
it's about time :-D
- Leo Simons
-
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Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Ehm, we are not talking aobut exiting incubation, we are talking about
releasing it.
ah, in that case, from the same document:
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Releases%0A
"As podlings are not yet fully accepted as part of the Apache Softw
Hi gang!
someone still needs to go in and update the details related to geronimo
in the incubator cvs module.
cheers,
- Leo
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Hi gang!
Some Stats
--
Taking a look at
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
we have 12 projects under incubation (listed as 13 but geronimo info
needs updating). Of these, 6 projects, namely
AltRMI
FtpServer
Lenya
Depot
WSRP4J
XMLBeans
have been incubating for 6 months o
Leo Simons wrote:
besides the incubator policy docs, you can see application of them to
several projects in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list archives.
someone requested an example:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&by=thread&from=771976
cheer
[is the rule that a project just needs 3 independent committers, or is
there an additional rule that no more than 50% of the committers must be
part of a single company?]
IIRC that 50% rule applies, but IANAL. Roy, Nicola?
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 12:11, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrot
Nicola wrote:
> Is that we are wrongly accepting projects that do not have a
> sufficiently big community? IOW, should we only accept projects the
> community size/diversity of which we would deem ok for graduation (as
> it has been IIRC always for Jakarta subprojects)?
I don't know. This "people m
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
Roy T. Fielding wrote on Friday, June 11, 2004 2:24 PM:
On Friday, June 11, 2004, at 04:01 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
[is the rule that a project just needs 3 independent committers, or
is there an additional rule that no more than 50% of the committers
must be part of a single
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
With this mail the community wants to carry out (1) the formal request
for the endorsement of our mentors, Stefano and Steven, and (2) the
request for release approval at the incubator pmc as defined in the
incubation policy.
+1
- Leo Simons
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
So please explain why we should have a incubator release while there are still
so many questions regarding the viability of the community?
IMHO lenya making this release (according to the rules set for it) is
part of an ongoing effort by lenya to make the community more "via
Hi Andreas!
Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
I think that it should be the task of the Apache Incubator to help exiting the
incubator. It should not try to artificially block releases.
actually, the task of the incubator is to help projects and people find
their place in the asf whilst simultaneously prote
Michael Wechner wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
In this case, Noel has raised some perfectly valid concerns about
files living on http://www.apache.org/dist/ without a PMC putting them
there (which is a *big thing*, for legal and other reasons). If I were
lenya, I wouldn't complain about constr
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Jim Jagielski wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
I have no idea where that 50% stuff came from.
me neither! But I figure it was added for /some/ reason :-D
IMO, there ought to be a sufficient independent community such that
if commercial
Frankly: it is because of this apparent shift in attitude that I'm
feeling Lenya is finally getting ready.
yeah, baby, yeah! Let's add checkmarks next to:
# Demonstrate ability to tolerate and resolve conflict within the
community.
# Release plans are developed and excuted in public by the
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
The more quantitative it is, the more a new project can know what they
have ahead of them and the less familiarity with the project's community
is required to cast an informed vote on graduation (just look up the
numbers).
I know an example or two of unhealthy communites where
Sander Striker wrote:
I'd like to call for a vote to graduate SpamAssassin from the
Incubator.
looking at the status file
! Verify distribution rights
|| date || item
| -..-.. | Check and make sure that for all code included with the
distribution that is not under the Apache license, we ha
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
[X] +1 - The XMLBeans project has met the requirements
for incubation and will be recommended to the
board for TLP status
- Leo
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Sander Striker wrote:
[X] +1 - The SpamAssassin project has met the requirements
for incubation and will be recommended to the
board for TLP status
- Leo
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For additional
Hi gang!
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I would also like the GUMP folks to take a close look at their needs.
Specifically, I have just made arrangements that they ought to be able to
get a copy of VMware GX for brutus. That will allow them to clone system
configurations from a master disk image (virtual
wrong list! Sorry!
- Leo
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Brian Behlendorf wrote:
In walking through the incubation documents (helping a couple of groups
who have asked me about how to do this) it struck me that there was no
requirement that the proposal provide a link to download and evaluate
the code around which a project is being proposed - in fact
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
Hello,
Hi Rolf!
on lenya-dev we had an agreement that Andreas Kuckartz should get more
Bugzilla Karma. He is not sending patches, but is following Lenya
development since I can remember and is effectively maintaining and
tracking Lenya bugzilla entries and he often adds value t
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project
Let it go.
>>
>>
I would like to retract my comments above.
good! This sounds like progress. Is the issue now resolved as far as the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] list is co
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Should it be done here or on the PMC?
here.
From the status file:
---
!!!Organizational acceptance of responsibility for the project
*If graduating to an existing PMC, has the PMC voted to accept it?
*If graduating to a new PMC, has the board voted to accept it?
!!!Incubato
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
I also vaguely remember some concerns expressed a while back on the PMC
list. I take it those have all been addressed?
Would be very interesting for us to know about those concerns. Can you
give more details please, or isn't it our _concern_ to know them?
We only can improve o
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
has the cocoon PMC voted to accept it?
The suggestion from Stefano is that it become a TLP, so cocoon doesn't need
to vote to accept it.
ehm sorry, that wasn't clear before. I guess we're in a hurry then :-D.
Steven may still be on a
vacation. If he's back, I'd like to hear
+1 for Lenya to graduate from incubation and apply for a TLP.
- Leo
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+0. Haven't had time to review.
- Leo
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Roy T. Fielding wrote:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/JcrProposal
Please cast your vote as +1 (yes), -1 (no), or something in between.
+1
- Leo
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Hi all,
Please vote on the Castle incubation proposal:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CastleProposal
+1 from me.
References:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&msgNo=4289
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&by=thread&from=894370
Hi all!
hammett wrote:
> I've submitted the first draft for your appreciation.
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CastleProposal
>
> Looking forward to hearing from you! :-)
I conditionally volunteer to mentor this project. I know Hammett as a
good developer and community player. While I don't know
hammett wrote:
Finally, I saw something mentioned about "XProject" in the proposal.
Does that refer to http://sourceforge.net/projects/xproject?? Correct me
if I'm wrong, but that seems rather dead and empty. Why not just use jira?
No, its not. XProject is a project from the company we (me and a fe
hammett wrote:
Is there any more things I need to do to start the process?
We could wait a few more days for some more feedback and proposal
changes (maybe people like William and Brian want to add their name to
the committer list?), or you guys could finalize the proposal and we
start an Incuba
Leo Simons wrote:
Please vote on the Castle incubation proposal:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CastleProposal
binding votes:
+1 - 1 vote
-1 - 1 vote
non binding votes:
+1 - few more
That means the proposal is not accepted. The basic reason is that the
Castle developer group is currently
On 22-04-2005 13:47, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Apr 18, 2005, at 12:59 PM, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
>> ...
> I'd love to see what some people think about the community - go look at
> the lists. That is what I looked at first, and it gave me confidence.
Derby seems to be doi
On 13-05-2005 23:27, "Heidi Buelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
Kewl. Seems like a big undertaking :-)
(...)
> (5) identify apache sponsoring individual
>
> Justin Erenkrantz (justin @ erenkrantz dot-com)
Which is why having anoth
On 20-05-2005 01:50, "Heidi Buelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Positive (5): Justin, Leo, Sander (binding), Brian and Brane (non binding)
> Neutral (1): Jim (binding)
> Negative ()
For the record, I didn't vote. A vote is "+1" or "-1" or "+0" or "-0". My
vote would be +0.
Cheers!
- Leo
---
On 23-05-2005 18:55, "Granqvist, Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I would prefer to see us put a requirement that during
>> incubation the project must build meaningful ties into the
>> other WS projects - via cross committers and interdependency.
>> That requires the marriage that you envision
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