on 18/01/2012 02:16 Igor Mozolevsky said the following:
> Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches
> to be submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours
> personally, but you get my gist).
Let me pretend that I don't get it. It is as much your code a
on 18/01/2012 01:09 Devin Teske said the following:
> I'm ready to say that the 9-series should instead be the "chosen
> outlier" when it comes to picking one single release to have an ultra-wide
> lifecycle.
But how can you say that without knowing what will (can) come in 10. Maybe it
will have
on 17/01/2012 00:28 John Kozubik said the following:
> FreeBSD is becoming an operating system by, and for, FreeBSD developers
Just want to express my _personal_ opinion on this statement.
I think that the proper tense for the statement would perfect - "has become".
And I think that that is inevi
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Julian Elischer wrote:
On 1/16/12 3:32 PM, William Bentley wrote:
I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here. Thank
you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was the only one
who felt this way.
[...]
We seem to have lost our way a
On 18 January 2012 09:25, Andriy Gapon wrote:
> on 18/01/2012 02:16 Igor Mozolevsky said the following:
>> Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches
>> to be submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours
>> personally, but you get my gist).
>
> Let me
on 18/01/2012 12:44 Robert Watson said the following:
> My view is therefore that we have a "social" -- which is to say structural --
> problem. Regardless of ".0" releases, we should be forcing out minor
> releases,
> which are morally similar to "service packs" in the vocabulary of other
> ven
on 18/01/2012 12:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following:
> On 18 January 2012 09:25, Andriy Gapon wrote:
>> on 18/01/2012 02:16 Igor Mozolevsky said the following:
>>> Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches
>>> to be submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* cod
on 18/01/2012 12:47 Poul-Henning Kamp said the following:
>
> FreeBSD has _always_ been a project by the community, for the community
> and there is no way it can be any other way.
Well, reading this http://wiki.freebsd.org/FreeBSD-ng it seems that in the past
there was a "for users" component re
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Andriy Gapon wrote:
on 18/01/2012 02:16 Igor Mozolevsky said the following:
Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches to be
submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours personally,
but you get my gist).
Let me pretend that I
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Andriy Gapon wrote:
on 17/01/2012 00:28 John Kozubik said the following:
we going to run RELEASE software ONLY
My opinion: you've put yourself in a box that is not very compatible with
the current FreeBSD release strategy. With your scale and restrictions you
probably
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Doug Barton wrote:
The other thing I think has been missing (as several have pointed out in
this thread already) is any sort of planning for what should be in the next
release. The current time-based release schedule is (in large part) a
reaction to the problems we had in
Robert Watson wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Julian Elischer wrote:
On 1/16/12 3:32 PM, William Bentley wrote:
I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here.
Thank you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was
the only one who felt this way.
[...]
We seem
On 18 January 2012 11:08, Andriy Gapon wrote:
> on 18/01/2012 12:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following:
[snip]
>>> There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more.
>>> There are only a few dozens of active FreeBSD developers. Maybe less for
>>> any
>>> given particular point
on 18/01/2012 13:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following:
> On 18 January 2012 11:08, Andriy Gapon wrote:
>> on 18/01/2012 12:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following:
>
> [snip]
>
There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more.
There are only a few dozens of active FreeB
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> On 18 January 2012 01:11, Eitan Adler wrote:
>
>> It takes time to review and test patches. There are a lot of people
>> that think "it only takes 30 seconds to download the patch, apply, and
>> commit." This is just not true.
>
> I fully
On 18 January 2012 13:11, Eitan Adler wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Igor Mozolevsky
> wrote:
>> One way to
>> "encourage" people to fix their code would be to prevent them from
>> committing to -CURRENT once they pass a certain threshold of
>> "unattended" patches. Of course then, c
On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:41:48 am Ivan Voras wrote:
> (answering out of order)
>
> On 16/01/2012 23:28, John Kozubik wrote:
>
> > 2) Having two simultaneous production releases draws focus away from
> > both of them, and keeps any release from ever truly maturing.
>
> This isn't how things
Den 18/01/2012 kl. 03.21 skrev Devin Teske:
> Looking at bin/164192...
>
> I'm left wondering to myself...
> How on Earth did a regression-by-typo introduced in SVN r214735 go 14 months
> without being noticed?
Because the regression tests in FreeBSD don't cover this part of the code?
:-)
Eri
[snip]
> For starters, what would be much more appreciated is for devs to be
> much more involved from the start once someone does submit the patch.
> I appreciate that people a fallible and from time to time are bound to
> forget that they have a PR with a patch assigned to them, but there's
> no
Am 17.01.2012 um 20:54 schrieb Steven Hartland:
> - Original Message - From: "John Kozubik"
>> It's amazing how many people are in the exact same boats - waiting for 8.3,
>> getting locked out of new motherboards because em(4) can't be "backported"
>> to even the production release...
Just noticed that tab-completion in /bin/sh has been added in 9.0 (verified
that it is not there in 8.0, dunno if it's there in 8.2, could probably go
digging to figure it out). In addition to the command history via
: (which is present in 8.0) FreeBSD sh is now actually a pretty
usable interactiv
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> hack...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian Elischer
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:56 AM
> To: Mark Felder
> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus,
On 18 January 2012 17:06, Devin Teske wrote:
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: owner-freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
>> hack...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian Elischer
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:56 AM
>> To: Mark Felder
>> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
>>
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Andriy Gapon wrote:
on 18/01/2012 12:44 Robert Watson said the following:
My view is therefore that we have a "social" -- which is to say structural --
problem. Regardless of ".0" releases, we should be forcing out minor releases,
which are morally similar to "service pack
On 18 Jan 2012 17:12, "Igor Mozolevsky" wrote:
> On 18 January 2012 17:06, Devin Teske wrote:
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: owner-freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> >> hack...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian Elischer
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:56 AM
>
On 18 January 2012 17:30, Chris Rees wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2012 17:12, "Igor Mozolevsky" wrote:
>> Back in the days when the UK banks ran ATMs, &c on Windows NT (I
>> have no idea what they are running now)
> Well I've not seen any BSOD'd cashpoints around for a while, so
> I'd like to suggest
On 1/18/12 3:32 AM, Robert Watson wrote:
Another possibility is to get some combination of {The FreeBSD
Foundation, iX Systems, ...} to trawl the bug report database in a
more official capacity. The problem there is that this will be a
high burn-out job. I'll bring it up at the next Foundati
on 18/01/2012 19:13 Daniel Eischen said the following:
> "someone who owns a branch..." - If you cut release N.0, do not
> move -current to N+1. Keep -current at N for a while, prohibiting
> ABI changes, and any other risky changes. If a developer wants to
> do possibly disruptive work, they can
> -Original Message-
> From: mozolev...@gmail.com [mailto:mozolev...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Igor
> Mozolevsky
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:12 AM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: Julian Elischer; Mark Felder; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with foc
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:11:02 +0200
Andriy Gapon wrote:
> on 18/01/2012 12:47 Poul-Henning Kamp said the following:
> > FreeBSD has _always_ been a project by the community, for the
> > community and there is no way it can be any other way.
> Well, reading this http://wiki.freebsd.org/FreeBSD-ng it
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Julian Elischer wrote:
>
> we really need a bud-submitting-user advocate..
>
> Someone (need not have a commit bit) who doesn't take charge of the patch,
> but, rather,
> acts as a project manager in hte process of getting it in.
> i.e. finding, and then pinging t
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:49:23 -0800
Julian Elischer wrote:
> On 1/18/12 3:32 AM, Robert Watson wrote:
> >
> > Another possibility is to get some combination of {The FreeBSD
> > Foundation, iX Systems, ...} to trawl the bug report database in a
> > more official capacity. The problem there is tha
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Adam Vande More wrote:
> I've suggested this before without much response, but since this thread
> seems to be encouraging repetition I'll give it another go. ;)
>
> I think a bounty system would be very effective(e.g. micro-donations of
> recent political campai
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Adam Vande More wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Julian Elischer wrote:
>
>>
>> we really need a bud-submitting-user advocate..
>>
>> Someone (need not have a commit bit) who doesn't take charge of the patch,
>> but, rather,
>> acts as a project manager
On 18 January 2012 18:27, Adam Vande More wrote:
> I've suggested this before without much response, but since this thread
> seems to be encouraging repetition I'll give it another go. ;)
>
> I think a bounty system would be very effective(e.g. micro-donations of
> recent political campaigns) in
On 18 January 2012 17:56, Andriy Gapon wrote:
> on 18/01/2012 19:13 Daniel Eischen said the following:
>> "someone who owns a branch..." - If you cut release N.0, do not
>> move -current to N+1. Keep -current at N for a while, prohibiting
>> ABI changes, and any other risky changes. If a develop
Hi Poul, Andriy,
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
FreeBSD has _always_ been a project by the community, for the community
and there is no way it can be any other way.
(You can consider this a law of nature as far as voluntary organizations
of intelligent beings governed by the pr
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Robert Watson wrote:
I think John gets a lot of what he wants if we just fix our release cycle.
Agreed. I still think that having two "production" releases running
simultaneously really hurts focus and the end product, but that's not
going to keep us from using Fre
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
I was thinking about this and I'm with Andriy on this: such solution
has no long term potential and will only serve to stagnate the
innovation. This has been repeated over and over in this thread, but
it's worth another mention, currently, there are
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:46:45 -0600, John Kozubik wrote:
And as long as we're repeating ... :)
Since 9.0 is already out of the bag, I think a decent approach would be
to fizzle out 8.x on the current timeline/trajectory (maybe 8.4 in 6-8
months, and maybe 8.5 in a year or so), then:
- EO
On 01/18/2012 11:46, John Kozubik wrote:
> - mark 9 as the _only_ production release
While I understand your motivation, I am not sure this is a workable
goal when combined with the goal that others have expressed of longer
timelines for the support of a given branch. Speaking from personal
experi
Hi,
Alexander, thanks your for your advice.
We were thinking of finding a "mentor" in the GSOC way, but we
understand that it will be more productive and surely more educational
to just ask our questions on the mailing list. We will do so.
We've had some time to look around the links and ideas ev
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:13 PM, John Kozubik wrote:
>
> Hi Poul, Andriy,
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
> FreeBSD has _always_ been a project by the community, for the community
>> and there is no way it can be any other way.
>>
>> (You can consider this a law of nature as
One port build (www/neon29) fails for me on 9.0 (i386, freshly upgraded
from 8.2), configure fails with the message: "cpp: error trying to exec
'cc1': execvp: No such file or directory"
I tracked in down to the PATH variable passed to cpp, when PATH begins
with /usr/local/bin, cpp breaks in 9.0.
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:00:44AM -0500, Matthew Story wrote:
> Just noticed that tab-completion in /bin/sh has been added in 9.0
> (verified that it is not there in 8.0, dunno if it's there in 8.2,
> could probably go digging to figure it out). In addition to the
> command history via : (which i
On 18 Jan 2012, at 11:47, Robert Watson wrote:
>
>
> It strikes me that the first basic plan would be a release schedule, however.
> :-)
7.4 - no further development
8.3 - Mar 2012
9.1 - May 2012
8.4 - July 2012
9.2 - Sep 2012
8.5 - Nov 2012
9.3 - Jan 2013
8.6 - Mar 2013
9.4 - May 2013
8.7
On 18 January 2012 22:31, Mark Blackman wrote:
> 10.0 - Nov 2013
I think 10.0 should be released based on feature-readiness and not on
some arbitrary date...
--
Igor M.
___
freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/lis
On 18 Jan 2012, at 22:50, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> On 18 January 2012 22:31, Mark Blackman wrote:
>
>> 10.0 - Nov 2013
>
> I think 10.0 should be released based on feature-readiness and not on
> some arbitrary date…
You can always redefine the feature-set to meet the date. :)
- Mark
___
on 18/01/2012 20:39 Mike Meyer said the following:
> There were developers in the community for whom seeing people using
> their code was the priority goal.
Trust me, there are still a lot of developers like that even now.
The problem is not with the developers, it is with the users!
They got s
On 18 January 2012 22:53, Mark Blackman wrote:
>
> On 18 Jan 2012, at 22:50, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>
>> On 18 January 2012 22:31, Mark Blackman wrote:
>>
>>> 10.0 - Nov 2013
>>
>> I think 10.0 should be released based on feature-readiness and not on
>> some arbitrary date…
>
> You can always red
On 18 Jan 2012, at 22:59, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> On 18 January 2012 22:53, Mark Blackman wrote:
>>
>> On 18 Jan 2012, at 22:50, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>>
>>> On 18 January 2012 22:31, Mark Blackman wrote:
>>>
10.0 - Nov 2013
>>>
>>> I think 10.0 should be released based on feature-re
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 02:20:56PM -0600 I heard the voice of
Mark Felder, and lo! it spake thus:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:46:45 -0600, John Kozubik wrote:
> > This is nice because no upheaval needs to happen with 7 and 8, and
> > interested developers do not get kneecapped vis a vis 9 - they can
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Yuri wrote:
> One port build (www/neon29) fails for me on 9.0 (i386, freshly upgraded from
> 8.2), configure fails with the message: "cpp: error trying to exec 'cc1':
> execvp: No such file or directory"
> I tracked in down to the PATH variable passed to cpp, when
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 01/18/2012 11:46, John Kozubik wrote:
>> - mark 9 as the _only_ production release
>
> What I've proposed instead is a new major release every 2 1/2 years,
> where the new release coincides with the EOL of the oldest production
> release. T
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:39:31 -0600
"Matthew D. Fuller" wrote:
> Or there's another option, a variant of (1), where we extend the
> lifetime of some major release trains, but not all. Every second, or
> every third. Then we can have a longer life, without ballooning out
> the number of trains bei
John writes:
> - EOL 7
> - mark 8 as legacy
> - mark 9 as the _only_ production release
> - release 10.0 in January 2017
Until a few days ago 8 was the latest, shinest release.
So you want to suddenly demote it all the way down to legacy?
I thought the goal was to have releases that can be used fo
> The original goal for 5.0 was to completely remove the Giant lock (and
> do other cool SMP-related stuff). Eventually it was realized that this
> was too big a goal to fully accomplish in 5.0 (albeit too late in the
> process) and the goal was changed to do the basic framework for the new
> SMP m
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jilles Tjoelker wrote:
> [...snip]
>
> On the contrary, our /bin/sh is minimalistic compared to many other
> shells used in that role, like bash, pdksh, mksh and ksh93. It (the 9.0
> version) has only slightly more features than dash or NetBSD's sh, and
> dash has
Andriy writes:
> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting.
Neither is brushing your teeth or cleaning the kitchen, but most of us
manage to do them at least occasionally. Part of being a grown up.
Instead of looking for a stick to hold over developers to get them
to fix PRs, let's look for car
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> hack...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Dieter BSD
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:58 PM
> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle)
>
On 19 January 2012 00:57, Dieter BSD wrote:
> Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats
>
> name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average fixed/year
> Sheldon..150...9072
> Leonard..131..110...
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> hack...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Igor Mozolevsky
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:06 PM
> To: Dieter BSD
> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, lon
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> hack...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Igor Mozolevsky
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:06 PM
> To: Dieter BSD
> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, lon
On 01/18/2012 06:57 PM, Dieter BSD wrote:
Andriy writes:
And dealing with PRs is not always exciting.
Neither is brushing your teeth or cleaning the kitchen, but most of us
manage to do them at least occasionally. Part of being a grown up.
Instead of looking for a stick to hold over developer
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:00:44AM -0500, Matthew Story wrote:
> Just noticed that tab-completion in /bin/sh has been added in 9.0 (verified
> that it is not there in 8.0, dunno if it's there in 8.2, could probably go
> digging to figure it out). In addition to the command history via
> : (which
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 07:59:48PM -0600, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> On 01/18/2012 06:57 PM, Dieter BSD wrote:
> > Andriy writes:
> >> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting.
> >
> > Neither is brushing your teeth or cleaning the kitchen, but most of us
> > manage to do them at least
On 16/01/2012, at 2:34 PM, Julian Elischer wrote:
> On 1/13/12 11:00 PM, Jan Mikkelsen wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking to upgrade a system running frame relay over a Sangoma A101 card
>> and WANPIPE.
>>
>> Sangoma do not support FreeBSD anymore, so I'm looking for alternatives.
>>
>> What har
On 15/01/2012, at 6:00 PM, Roman Kurakin wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Jan Mikkelsen wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking to upgrade a system running frame relay over a Sangoma A101 card
>> and WANPIPE.
>>
>> Sangoma do not support FreeBSD anymore, so I'm looking for alternatives.
>>
>> What hardware does ng_
> > > Idea 1: Fix 'n' PRs, get a tee-shirt, fridge magnet, plush daemon, ...
> > >
> > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats
> > >
> > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average
> > > fixed/year Sheldon..150...90.
Hello,
(This is cross-posted message between current@, stable@ and hackers@; for
eventual discussion, please use hackers@ mailing list.)
I am glad to announce that we've successfully reached the end of Google
Code-In 2011 Contest!
FreeBSD participated first time, and in my personal opinion GCIN
Jan Mikkelsen wrote:
On 15/01/2012, at 6:00 PM, Roman Kurakin wrote:
Hi,
Jan Mikkelsen wrote:
Hi,
I'm looking to upgrade a system running frame relay over a Sangoma A101 card
and WANPIPE.
Sangoma do not support FreeBSD anymore, so I'm looking for alternatives.
What hardware does n
A simple sollution (at least for a start), for backporting
various bugfixes from STABLE to RELEASE.
Currently we have /var/db/pkg 'db' for installed ports,
where an installed port is like /var/db/pkg/portname-1.0
lets provide another one, /var/db/patch, a separated
'repository' that would list ins
(This is my earlier 'rant' about current situation, it was not
'approved' to the freebsd-hackers ML because I was not
subscribed to it (my bad), possible little too much personal
and emotional, but who we are without emotions, machines.)
This well known 'open secret' FreeBSD problem also hit me
On Jan 18, 2012, at 2:44 AM, Robert Watson wrote:
>
> ... perhaps what is really called for is breaking out our .0 release
> engineering entirely from .x engineering, with freebsd-update being in the
> latter.
This is a great idea!
In particular, it would allow more people to be involved.
The
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