On 08/27/2010 11:26 AM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> Two of the biggest remaining problems (of which there are, naturally,
> many many many others):
>
> 1) Transparency. ...
> 2) Eurocentrism. ...
Mark, if you post more than one message per day, reiterating how
irritated you are with Gerard, then the
I hope nobody gets the impression that I'm just an American sniping at
Europeans. I wouldn't be much happier if it was half Americans and
half Europeans, or even all Americans. The majority of the world's
non-endangered languages are spoken in Asia and Africa, so on a
committee that deals with lang
I want to remind participants of this discussion that the subject of
this thread is "Sakha Wikipedia passed 7000 articles". Whenever you
want to talk about LangCom, please fork the thread with the subject
which makes sense.
I didn't read this thread up to yesterday afternoon, when Amir told me
tha
Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
>> 2) Eurocentrism. Not an accusation to be made lightly, but look at the
>> geographic composition of the langcom. 9/13 members currently reside
>> in Europe, another is originally from Europe, 2 from Canada and 1 from
>> California. Hmm... so the population of Europe is
> 2) Eurocentrism. Not an accusation to be made lightly, but look at the
> geographic composition of the langcom. 9/13 members currently reside
> in Europe, another is originally from Europe, 2 from Canada and 1 from
> California. Hmm... so the population of Europe is 10% of the Earth's
> populati
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 5:26 AM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> 2) Eurocentrism.
[snip]
> another is originally from Europe,
The one "originally from Europe" still spent most of his life in the
Middle East which we should be applauding as a departure from the
"Eurocentrism" that you mention and not l
Two of the biggest remaining problems (of which there are, naturally,
many many many others):
1) Transparency. Maybe some experts fear retaliation - okay, use
pseudonyms or contribute anonymously. Just have someone summarize your
opinion for public archives. Does Gerard fear retaliation? From whom
An'n 27.08.2010 00:00, hett David Gerard schreven:
> On 26 August 2010 22:48, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
>
>> I personally don't agree with this. I believe a person with such problematic
>> employment situation is not a good fit for a supposedly community committee.
>> And even if there is a great ne
An'n 26.08.2010 23:21, hett Gerard Meijssen schreven:
> Hoi,
> Let us have a sense of history here. When the language committee started,
> there were no linguists or other experts members on the committee. We were
> really happy when we got someone who is part of the standard bodies that are
> re
> A tricky bit appears to be when expertise is offered on the basis that
> it is confidential, due to fear of attacks on the expert in question
> from aggrieved nationalists. It's not clear how to work around that
> one.
>
>
>
But is that the case with committee members? I totally understand and ag
On 26 August 2010 22:48, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
> I personally don't agree with this. I believe a person with such problematic
> employment situation is not a good fit for a supposedly community committee.
> And even if there is a great need for this person's expertise, other
> arrangements could
I finally understand. User:Karen (I am assuming, based on other ppl's
remarks) opinions might affect her employment, and in an effort to conceal
her opinions, Gerard is keeping his contribution confidential. Thus
rendering it very hard for anyone to follow the threads and deduce what she
may have s
Hoi,
Let us have a sense of history here. When the language committee started,
there were no linguists or other experts members on the committee. We were
really happy when we got someone who is part of the standard bodies that are
relevant to what we do. It meant that we had a way to assess what th
I've just been chatting with Gerard about this issue. He explained in
some detail the concerns for confidentiality - the situation is far
from ideal, but is the present workable solution to getting accurate
quality information without possible retribution drected at those
giving the information fro
An'n 26.08.2010 21:29, hett Jesse (Pathoschild) schreven:
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:14 AM, David Gerard wrote:
>> Can anyone else from the language committee offer a credible
>> explanation of their special requirement for secrecy? Surely if this
>> is a requirement, it can be explained, as G
-Original Message-
From: Jesse (Pathoschild)
Date: 2010. augusztus 26. 21:29
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Sakha Wikipedia passed 7000 articles
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:14 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> Can anyone else from the language committee offe
Hi Jesse,
> There are some cases where confidentiality is necessary. We routinely
> ask external experts for their evaluation of the test project content
> before project approval, as Yaroslav mentioned early in this
> discussion. These external persons are sometimes in situations where
> speakin
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:14 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> Can anyone else from the language committee offer a credible
> explanation of their special requirement for secrecy? Surely if this
> is a requirement, it can be explained, as Gerard did not.
Hello David,
There are some cases where confiden
Hoi,
Blatant: without any attempt at concealment; completely obvious (Wordnet). I
do not need an excuse, I did better; I provided an explanation. An
explanation that you care not to accept. I have also pointed out that I am
unwilling to drop people who have helped out for opportunistic reasons.
It
Gerard, would you be so kind and post a message on your mailing list
informing your co-members about this discussion and inviting them to
join in with their opinions? Would be especially nice to hear from Karen!
Is that okay?
Marcus Buck
User:Slomox
__
On 26 August 2010 19:13, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> I think this has already been answered. Quoting Marcus below:
>> You try to make it appear like an attack on a single person. It's not
>> about removing any person from the committee, we just want them to be
>> transparent and stand to their word
Hoi,
That is an argument I do not agree with.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 26 August 2010 19:59, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > It is opportunistic to drop someone who helped when it was most needed
>
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> It is opportunistic to drop someone who helped when it was most needed
> because of some people arguing for this. In my opinion this is extremely
> bad
> form.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
>
I think this has already been answered. Qu
Hoi,
It is opportunistic to drop someone who helped when it was most needed
because of some people arguing for this. In my opinion this is extremely bad
form.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 26 August 2010 15:50, Marcus Buck wrote:
> An'n 26.08.2010 14:20, hett Gerard Meijssen schreven:
> > Hoi,
> > O
On 26 August 2010 14:50, Marcus Buck wrote:
> What has a limited remit to do with transparency? The things you do in
> your limited remit are extremely relevant to some groups. Our mailing
> lists should be public whenever possible so people have the chance to
> object to wrong or bad decisions,
An'n 26.08.2010 14:20, hett Gerard Meijssen schreven:
> Hoi,
> Other members of the LC can confirm to you that there is little need to
> discuss things on our list. Most mails are boringly business like.
If it's boring there is no reason to keep it secret. So no argument for
your position.
> Whe
Hoi,
Other members of the LC can confirm to you that there is little need to
discuss things on our list. Most mails are boringly business like.
When you find the explanation provided not enough, then that is tough. At
the time we were really happy to gain a new member with its qualifications.
I am
On 26 August 2010 04:54, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> I am not the only one that keep my contributions confidential. There is
> another member of the LC who has good personal reasons to have the
> contributions not publicly available. The reason is that there may be
> repercussions in the professiona
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 5:54 AM, Gerard Meijssen
wrote:
> The backlash had the potential of stopping all new Wikipedias in any
> language. To prevent this from happening, the language committee and its
> policy were created. This policy was accepted by the board of trustees. With
> the flow of ne
Nathan, 26/08/2010 00:01:
> It's true that the work of the Language Community stands out as one of
> the few areas of community participation (in that the LangCom members
> are not employees of the WMF) closed to public or community
> observation.
Few? There are some ten private "community" wikis
Hello,
> I am not the only one that keep my contributions confidential. There is
> another member of the LC who has good personal reasons to have the
> contributions not publicly available. The reason is that there may be
> repercussions in the professional sphere. When this was discussed in the
Hoi,
I am not the only one that keep my contributions confidential. There is
another member of the LC who has good personal reasons to have the
contributions not publicly available. The reason is that there may be
repercussions in the professional sphere. When this was discussed in the
past, I was
Muhammad Yahia wrote:
>> Exactly what I thought first. But he's from ar.wp, so I guess he's
>> referring to arz.wp,
>>
> I hope you realize there are two different ppl in that quote above (it's
> mis-attributing it to me, and it seems like I am agreeing with myself :) ).
> I personally dont ha
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Michael Peel wrote:
> Erm ... huh?
>
> 1) If you're interested in helping, and have experience/knowledge of
> languages, then get involved with the committee.
I have wanted to be part of the committee since before its inception,
but back then I felt I would proba
Hi,
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 4:46 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>
> Gerard, do you have anything to say about this? I really don't see how
> this is considered acceptable. Perhaps you can explain.
Rather than focusing on one specific person who didn't opt in, it
would be more helpful imho to reconsider
On 26 August 2010 00:39, Marcus Buck wrote:
> An'n 26.08.2010 00:41, hett David Gerard schreven:
>> On 25 August 2010 23:34, Marcus Buck wrote:
>>> Gerard Meijssen keeps his contributions to
>>> the discussions secret
>> Is this true? If so, what is the rationale? Described like that, that
>>
An'n 26.08.2010 00:41, hett David Gerard schreven:
> On 25 August 2010 23:34, Marcus Buck wrote:
>> Gerard Meijssen keeps his contributions to
>> the discussions secret
> Is this true? If so, what is the rationale? Described like that, that
> sounds ridiculous and unacceptable.
Well, the latest
An'n 26.08.2010 01:02, hett Muhammad Yahia schreven:
>>> On 25 August 2010 23:01, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
I agree with what Muhammad and Mark has said
it's a pity that such resolutions that affect the whole community is
controlled like this..
resulting in such projects that re
>> On 25 August 2010 23:01, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
> >> I agree with what Muhammad and Mark has said
> >> it's a pity that such resolutions that affect the whole community is
> >> controlled like this..
> >> resulting in such projects that really make Wikimedia looks like a host
> for
> >> childish
On 25 August 2010 23:34, Marcus Buck wrote:
> Gerard Meijssen keeps his contributions to
> the discussions secret
Is this true? If so, what is the rationale? Described like that, that
sounds ridiculous and unacceptable.
- d.
___
foundation-l mailin
An'n 25.08.2010 22:42, hett Michael Peel schreven:
>> On 25 August 2010 23:01, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
>> I agree with what Muhammad and Mark has said
>> it's a pity that such resolutions that affect the whole community is
>> controlled like this..
>> resulting in such projects that really make Wi
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Nathan wrote:
> It's true that the work of the Language Community
That should be Language Committee, of course.
~Nathan
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It's true that the work of the Language Community stands out as one of
the few areas of community participation (in that the LangCom members
are not employees of the WMF) closed to public or community
observation. Certain other groups do this (the English Wikipedia
Arbitration Committee comes to mi
Hello,
Nearly every email posted
> to the private list is copied to the public archives, unless the
> poster asks to be excluded. Discussions are summarized, to ensure that
> censored messages don't reduce transparency.
To illustrate my point: I did try to follow the discussions for some time
wh
On 25 August 2010 23:42, Michael Peel wrote:
> Erm ... huh?
>
> 1) If you're interested in helping, and have experience/knowledge of
> languages, then get involved with the committee.
>
> 2) They're getting things achieved - they're fostering the development of
> new language projects, making dec
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> I think it has been proven many times over now that the Language
> Committee works in mysterious ways with little or no community
> oversight or input, essentially a self-appointed committee of
> "experts", mostly from similar linguistic ba
>
>
> resulting in such projects that really make Wikimedia looks like a host for
> childish projects that's
> written in a funny language never seen written before in
> any respectable scientific book, website, etc..
>
> I do not necessarily agree with that. I think the majority of the projects
ap
Erm ... huh?
1) If you're interested in helping, and have experience/knowledge of languages,
then get involved with the committee.
2) They're getting things achieved - they're fostering the development of new
language projects, making decisions, getting the projects started, and doing
this in
On 25 August 2010 23:01, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Mark Williamson
> wrote:
>
> > I think it has been proven many times over now that the Language
> > Committee works in mysterious ways with little or no community
> > oversight or input, essentially a self-appoint
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:48:25 -0700, Mark Williamson
wrote:
> I think it has been proven many times over now that the Language
> Committee works in mysterious ways with little or no community
> oversight or input, essentially a self-appointed committee of
> "experts", mostly from similar linguisti
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> I think it has been proven many times over now that the Language
> Committee works in mysterious ways with little or no community
> oversight or input, essentially a self-appointed committee of
> "experts", mostly from similar linguistic
I think it has been proven many times over now that the Language
Committee works in mysterious ways with little or no community
oversight or input, essentially a self-appointed committee of
"experts", mostly from similar linguistic backgrounds, handing down
judgements about the rest of the world's
Hoi,
The language committee has had the sad experience that people suggested that
a Wikipedia was in a particular language while it was not. There are still
Wikipedias where people native to a language object to it because they do
not recognise it as properly written in their language. We have trie
Congratulations.
Am 24.08.2010 08:29, wrote Amir E. Aharoni:
> Some good news: The Sakha Wiki community keeps being surprisingly
> active. I don't know this language, but i read the mailing list of
> that community, which is mostly written in Russian, and often
> contribute to it (i also asked t
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:29:01 +0300, "Amir E. Aharoni"
wrote:
> Some good news: The Sakha Wiki community keeps being surprisingly
> active. I don't know this language, but i read the mailing list of
> that community, which is mostly written in Russian, and often
> contribute to it (i also asked to
Some good news: The Sakha Wiki community keeps being surprisingly
active. I don't know this language, but i read the mailing list of
that community, which is mostly written in Russian, and often
contribute to it (i also asked to migrate that list to Wikimedia
servers and it will probably happen soo
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