Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 16. 8. 2013 at 15:20:57, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Matthias Clasen (mcla...@redhat.com) said: > > On Fri, 2013-08-16 at 08:42 +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: > > > Actually no, the system is all hacked up and works in a super-abusive > > > way, see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=979083 > >

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > So my guess is that sometime after F7 (maybe when upgrade was no longer a > path in Anaconda?) it was considered not supported anymore? No and anaconda lost support in F18 (and fedup took its place). -- devel mailing list devel@lis

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 16 August 2013 19:41, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 08/15/2013 03:55 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > What's alarming with the decision to officially support upgrades that it > was done without consulting the QA community, which are the ones that have > to come up with the test cases

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 1:41 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 08/15/2013 03:55 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > Some form of middle ground of this is what we have currently implemented in > QA and test for but even there we cannot "guarantee" anything, like if we > take the default deskto

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 03:55 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: On 15 August 2013 15:48, Matthew Garrett > wrote: Oh, and to clarify - upgrades were supported even before then, but required booting Anaconda from new install media. That's been true since the Re

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Matthias Clasen (mcla...@redhat.com) said: > On Fri, 2013-08-16 at 08:42 +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: > > Actually no, the system is all hacked up and works in a super-abusive way, > > see > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=979083 > > That bug is really an illustration why it is just w

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Fri, 2013-08-16 at 08:42 +0200, Jan Zelený wrote: > > Actually no, the system is all hacked up and works in a super-abusive way, > see > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=979083 That bug is really an illustration why it is just wrong to keep information about the update history in

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:12 -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 08/15/2013 03:47 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:36:53 -0400 > > "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > > > >> Interesting since they did not do that when I joined QA what 5 or 6 > >> years ago so again can you refe

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 03:43:27PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 08/15/2013 03:16 PM, drago01 wrote: > >Suddenly? They always have been "supported" that even dates back to > >the Redhat Linux days ... > > > > I should clarify what I'm talking about is the discussion of > "officially"

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/16/2013 09:42 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: On 15. 8. 2013 at 09:37:57, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:32:27 +0200 Reindl Harald wrote: what does *not* matter in case of "yum distro-sync" because it does also downgrades and if fedup has a problem with it the people who say yum is not

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 15. 8. 2013 at 09:37:57, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:32:27 +0200 > > Reindl Harald wrote: > > what does *not* matter in case of "yum distro-sync" because it does > > also downgrades and if fedup has a problem with it the people who say > > yum is not officially supported (while

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 16:12:48 -0400 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 08/15/2013 03:47 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:36:53 -0400 > > "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > > > >> Interesting since they did not do that when I joined QA what 5 or 6 > >> years ago so again can you re

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Am 15.08.2013 22:12, schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson: > On 08/15/2013 03:47 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: >> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:36:53 -0400 >> "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: >> >>> Interesting since they did not do that when I joined QA what 5 or 6 >>> years ago so again can you refer me to that discu

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 03:47 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:36:53 -0400 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: Interesting since they did not do that when I joined QA what 5 or 6 years ago so again can you refer me to that discussion. It's always been a test case/critera that I remember... htt

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 15 August 2013 15:48, Matthew Garrett wrote: > Oh, and to clarify - upgrades were supported even before then, but > required booting Anaconda from new install media. That's been true since > the Red Hat Linux days, so years before Fedora even existed. > > I believe we are arguing over words wh

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Oh, and to clarify - upgrades were supported even before then, but required booting Anaconda from new install media. That's been true since the Red Hat Linux days, so years before Fedora even existed. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:36:53 -0400 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > Interesting since they did not do that when I joined QA what 5 or 6 > years ago so again can you refer me to that discussion. It's always been a test case/critera that I remember... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/2

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 03:16 PM, drago01 wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:02 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: On 08/15/2013 02:26 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 01:02:42PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: Well whomever choose to decide that we "support" upgrades in the firs

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 03:02:37PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > Our release criteria and everything we defined *after* we found out > that we suddenly supported upgrades is solid which is not what I was > saying or referring to. We've always supported upgrades. Before fedup, preupgrade

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 03:16 PM, drago01 wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:02 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: On 08/15/2013 02:26 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 01:02:42PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: Well whomever choose to decide that we "support" upgrades in the firs

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: >> On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:41:37 -0700 >> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> >>> Additional agenda item: >>> >>> Mattdm, sgallagh, and I were talking about the general fesco sentiment >>> towards mat

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:02 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 08/15/2013 02:26 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: >> >> On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 01:02:42PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: >> >>> Well whomever choose to decide that we "support" upgrades in the >>> first place bypassed the QA co

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 02:26 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 01:02:42PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: Well whomever choose to decide that we "support" upgrades in the first place bypassed the QA community entirely in making that decision as well as to which tool is "preferred"

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 01:02:42PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > Well whomever choose to decide that we "support" upgrades in the > first place bypassed the QA community entirely in making that > decision as well as to which tool is "preferred","supported" or > "recommended". If QA is t

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 09:40 AM, Paul Wouters wrote: I feel that people mostly say "fedora is for testing". It is somewhat supported by responses to upgrade problems to a new version which invariable are along the lines of "we don't support that upgrade path/method". Well whomever choose to decide that

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 10:26 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: On 08/15/2013 10:16 AM, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: I agree our updates should be supported option ;-) They are usually working very well. We really should try to stop using the word "supported" since it misleading for everybody. "Best eff

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 10:16 AM, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: I agree our updates should be supported option ;-) They are usually working very well. We really should try to stop using the word "supported" since it misleading for everybody. "Best effort" is what accurately describes what the community

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

y when I tried to update a Fedora 19 vm to rawhide what exactly was the unsolveable problem you could not fix before reboot? and according to the message below how do someone imagine fedup could solve the specific problem without manual intervention? Original-Nachricht Betreff

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Am 15.08.2013 18:02, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: > On 08/15/2013 05:32 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: >> >> >> Am 15.08.2013 17:17, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: >>> On 08/15/2013 04:36 PM, Paul Wouters wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: > Am 15.08.2013 15:40, schrieb Paul Wouters: >>

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 11:32 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.08.2013 17:17, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: On 08/15/2013 04:36 PM, Paul Wouters wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.08.2013 15:40, schrieb Paul Wouters: We can't tell people to re-install from scratch every 6 months. What we

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:59:30 +0200 Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 08/15/2013 05:37 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: ...snip... > > It gathers up the packages you will need to do the upgrade, > > ... and stores them in /var/cache/yum/... > > If you don't have a sufficiently large /var/cache, such a download

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 05:32 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.08.2013 17:17, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: On 08/15/2013 04:36 PM, Paul Wouters wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.08.2013 15:40, schrieb Paul Wouters: We can't tell people to re-install from scratch every 6 months. What we

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 05:37 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:32:27 +0200 Reindl Harald wrote: what does *not* matter in case of "yum distro-sync" because it does also downgrades and if fedup has a problem with it the people who say yum is not officially supported (while no support in any

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 17:32:27 +0200 Reindl Harald wrote: > what does *not* matter in case of "yum distro-sync" because it does > also downgrades and if fedup has a problem with it the people who say > yum is not officially supported (while no support in any case exists) > should ask theirself who

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Am 15.08.2013 15:40, schrieb Paul Wouters: > We can't tell people to re-install from scratch every 6 months. > What we need is an "apt-get dist-upgrade" equivalent. *we have* http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum i currently count 450 dist-upgrade this way and the oldest se

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Am 15.08.2013 17:17, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: > On 08/15/2013 04:36 PM, Paul Wouters wrote: >> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: >> >>> Am 15.08.2013 15:40, schrieb Paul Wouters: We can't tell people to re-install from scratch every 6 months. What we need is an "apt-get dist-upgr

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 04:36 PM, Paul Wouters wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.08.2013 15:40, schrieb Paul Wouters: We can't tell people to re-install from scratch every 6 months. What we need is an "apt-get dist-upgrade" equivalent. *we have* http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgr

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Hi On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Paul Wouters > I'll try it for f18->f19, and if this got fixed that is a big step > towards running fedora longterm across releases. > Fedup is not the same thing as preupgrade and it appears you are complaining about issues in preupgrade and haven't tried f

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.08.2013 15:40, schrieb Paul Wouters: We can't tell people to re-install from scratch every 6 months. What we need is an "apt-get dist-upgrade" equivalent. *we have* http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum i currently count 450

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 09:40:01AM -0400, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Matthew Garrett wrote: > > >I want increased participation in the creation of Fedora, which is a > >product with a defined set of software shipped as default. I'm also > >happy with people working to make it pract

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/15/2013 03:40 PM, Paul Wouters wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Matthew Garrett wrote: I want increased participation in the creation of Fedora, which is a product with a defined set of software shipped as default. I'm also happy with people working to make it practical to use Fedora as the ba

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/15/2013 09:40 AM, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Matthew Garrett wrote: > >> I want increased participation in the creation of Fedora, which >> is a product with a defined set of software shipped as default. >> I'm also happy with pe

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 09:40 -0400, Paul Wouters wrote: > We can't tell people to re-install from scratch every 6 months. What > we need is an "apt-get dist-upgrade" equivalent. +1 -- Best Regards, Artem Bityutskiy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013, Matthew Garrett wrote: I want increased participation in the creation of Fedora, which is a product with a defined set of software shipped as default. I'm also happy with people working to make it practical to use Fedora as the basis for derived products (such as the spins a

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 06:49:17PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 08/14/2013 06:04 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > >Some projects are objectively better than other projects. Some projects > >may not be objectively better but are more closely aligned with our > >release schedule and support

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/14/2013 06:04 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 05:32:15PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: Putting one of those at a higher level by default, by recommendation or even just by placing it on the front web page puts the others at disadvantage and will hinder growth an

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 05:32:15PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > Putting one of those at a higher level by default, by recommendation > or even just by placing it on the front web page puts the others at > disadvantage and will hinder growth and participation in the > relevant sub-commun

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/14/2013 03:51 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: Would we be defaulting and or recommending one application over >another in "Fedora server" for example openldap vs 389ds, kvm vs >xen, postgresql vs mariadb if so why? Ideally, we avoid tying ourselves down, but I think any such recommendations wou

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 02:26:55PM -0400, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > >2. FESCO-created working group to draft Fedora Base Design as called for > >in that proposal. > Has fesco already created that working group if so who's on it? No. The proposal is to create such a group, through callin

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Colin Walters (walt...@verbum.org) said: > On Wed, 2013-08-14 at 13:00 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > * These products would be Fedora Workstation, Fedora Server, and Fedora > > Cloud (precise definitions to be developed) > > Why not derive these definitions from the current Red Hat Enterp

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On 08/14/2013 01:00 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:04:41AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: I don't see any harm I guess in fesco deciding that we are in favor in general of this plan and ask the Board if we are going down a path they don't want us to before writing up concrete pr

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Wed, 2013-08-14 at 13:00 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > * These products would be Fedora Workstation, Fedora Server, and Fedora > Cloud (precise definitions to be developed) Why not derive these definitions from the current Red Hat Enterprise Linux products? -- devel mailing list devel@li

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:04:41AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > I don't see any harm I guess in fesco deciding that we are in favor in > general of this plan and ask the Board if we are going down a path they > don't want us to before writing up concrete proposals. Yeah, I was hoping to have discu

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:41:37 -0700 > Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > >> Additional agenda item: >> >> Mattdm, sgallagh, and I were talking about the general fesco sentiment >> towards mattdm's fedora future direction proposal and the multiple >> fed

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:41:37 -0700 Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > Additional agenda item: > > Mattdm, sgallagh, and I were talking about the general fesco sentiment > towards mattdm's fedora future direction proposal and the multiple > fedora products idea at post-flock breakfast. My understanding is

Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2013-08-14)

Additional agenda item: Mattdm, sgallagh, and I were talking about the general fesco sentiment towards mattdm's fedora future direction proposal and the multiple fedora products idea at post-flock breakfast. My understanding is that the sentiment was that it would be a board decision whether to g