Hi Christi, and welcome!
El 22/02/15 a las 06:12, Christi Wilson escribió:
> Hi,
>
> My name is Christi and I am a new to Linux (only been using it for a
> little over a month) and new to Debian. I chose Debian for my distro as
> I was very impressed with the Social Contract and what the communit
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 09:12:35PM -0800, Christi Wilson wrote:
> My name is Christi and I am a new to Linux (only been using it for a
> little over a month) and new to Debian. I chose Debian for my distro
> as I was very impressed with the Social Contract and what the
> community strives for as
Hi,
My name is Christi and I am a new to Linux (only been using it for a
little over a month) and new to Debian. I chose Debian for my distro as
I was very impressed with the Social Contract and what the community
strives for as a whole.
I found out about Debian Women when I was reading arti
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 07:34:32PM +0300, Yehuda Korotkin wrote:
>Hello Brenda J. Butler,
>Thanks for the detailed email ! :-)
>>> young people today (everywhere), are just not interested in typing to
> write
>programs or communicate.
>-- Scary to imagine where this could lead
works in terms of
> communications.
>
> Having a video conference like this is extremely unusual for the
> Debian organization. Mostly the users and developers use email, irc
> and other non-synchronous means for virtually all communication. Once
> in a while, there is a conference
From: Miriam Ruiz
To: debian-women
Cc: Yehuda Korotkin ; debian-events...@lists.debian.org
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: Debian Women Introduction
2014-06-14 9:44 GMT+02:00 Kevin Mark :
> Hi Yehuda and Brenda,
> That's
2014-06-14 9:44 GMT+02:00 Kevin Mark :
> Hi Yehuda and Brenda,
> That's great info that you provided.
> Just a few more bits.
> There is an Organization 'Open Hatch', they typically visit campuses in the US
> and do 'on boarding' for various open source projects by doing a presentation
> about wha
or the
> Debian organization. Mostly the users and developers use email, irc
> and other non-synchronous means for virtually all communication. Once
> in a while, there is a conference and some Debian people will meet in
> person. Mainly, the communications are not about introducing D
ery
little in the way of introductions/recruitment aside from the
web pages that describe Debian (www.debian.org and the wiki).
I can see the value in making the introduction to the students more
interactive than the usual Debian communications though. A lot of
people, esp. young people today (ev
Hello Miriam,
Thanks for replay and thanks for the Welcome :-)
Next week i'll try to schedule time for video conference.
if you know people that might be interested to
* Explain about Debian Linux
* Encourage women to be involved in community
* Introduce the community
* Display small presentatio
Hello Daniel !
Thanks for replay.
It is good idea to engage them with free software. but, i think it's too
early for them.
I believe that first stage is to meet them with Debian Linux show them that
there is other OS except Windows,
Than explain them about open-source community and introduce the
2014-06-12 9:17 GMT+02:00 Yehuda Korotkin :
> Hello Debian Women,
>
> My name is Yehuda Korotkin and I teach technologies in one of leading
> colleges for women in Israel.
>
Welcome!!! :)
> I thought about the possibility of introduce Debian and the Debian
> community to the girls that i teach.
Hi Yehuda,
Thanks for your email to Debian
I'm mentoring a female student in Google Summer of Code this year. She
is working on the JSCommunicator project, which could be used to
facilitate a video call as you discussed. JitMeet from the Jitsi team
could also be used.
One way you could quick
Hello Debian Women,
My name is Yehuda Korotkin and I teach technologies in one of leading
colleges for women in Israel.
I thought about the possibility of introduce Debian and the Debian
community to the girls that i teach.
Our girls will install Debian Linux for the first time in their lives ne
Hi Diane!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Diane Trout wrote:
> One of the easiest places I found to start was updating packages I was using
> that were out of date.
>
> You can get a lot information about a package at:
> http://packages.qa.debian.org/common/index.html
>
> Theres a list of work-n
Hi Lesley!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:41 AM, lesleyb wrote:
> I have no idea whether you know about these things but the Debian women group
> do have an irc channel, #debian-women, on irc.debian.org. Please visit and
> say
> hi there too.
>
> You can find out what we're up to there; also worth c
Hi Miry!
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
> There's many things to do and many places to help, but it's usually not
> obvious from start. I'd suggest that maybe you could do a brief introduction
> of what things you might like, the kind of things you mi
Welcome
One of the easiest places I found to start was updating packages I was using
that were out of date.
You can get a lot information about a package at:
http://packages.qa.debian.org/common/index.html
Theres a list of work-needed-prospective-packages at
http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/
On Mon, Sep 02, 2013 at 08:36:05PM +0200, Kinga Bernadett Böszörményi wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Took me a while to start here. Today is school begin day in my country
> and decided to begin my contribution here. But I still don't know how
> may I help. I've some programming knowledge, can package
> programs. May try to mentor others how they can start cooperation with
> Debian.
> Is there any task list that I should check or something I may join to?
>
There's many things to do and many places to help, but it's usually not
obvious from start. I'd suggest that maybe
Hi everyone,
Took me a while to start here. Today is school begin day in my country
and decided to begin my contribution here. But I still don't know how
may I help. I've some programming knowledge, can package small
programs. May try to mentor others how they can start cooperation with
Debian.
Is
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 05:24:45PM +0200, Fernanda G Weiden wrote:
> So if you would like to do this, I would then focus on Debian stuff,
> talk about the existence of this group, and add more info about how to
> get involved to the materials.
This sounds great to me.
cheers,
Christine
--
To U
Hi Fernanda
Fernanda G Weiden @ 10.05.2011 17:24:
Hi people,
I'm planning to give classes of introduction to systems administration
gratis for girls at a conference in Brazil (FISL), and I would like to
know whether you would like me to translate information about this
activity and also
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> Just wondering: girls or women?
What about we make it "female" so there's no age issue? :-)
There was no intention in the choice of term, it was just my
non-native-speaker-writing-fast-without-thinking issue...
--
Free Software Foundat
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Fernanda G Weiden
wrote:
> Hi people,
> I'm planning to give classes of introduction to systems administration
> gratis for girls at a conference in Brazil (FISL), and I would like to
> know whether you would like me to translate information abou
Hi people,
I'm planning to give classes of introduction to systems administration
gratis for girls at a conference in Brazil (FISL), and I would like to
know whether you would like me to translate information about this
activity and also brand it as a Debian Women initiative.
I know some p
2009/7/28 Lesley Binks :
> 2009/7/28 Rosellyne Thompson :
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> My name is Rosellyne Thompson and I am 23 years old. I've been using
>> Debian since 2000 (Potato!) and I've decided to delurk and become more
>> involved with the Debian project, primarily to give something back and
>>
2009/7/28 Rosellyne Thompson :
> Hi everyone,
>
> My name is Rosellyne Thompson and I am 23 years old. I've been using
> Debian since 2000 (Potato!) and I've decided to delurk and become more
> involved with the Debian project, primarily to give something back and
> become part of the community, bu
ng UK events (I am based
> in Ilford, Essex, so can attend events in Central London), press work
> and general interaction with the Debian project.
Have you done any packaging before? If not, then there's a good
introduction to the topic on the Debian Women wiki:
http://women.
Hi everyone,
My name is Rosellyne Thompson and I am 23 years old. I've been using
Debian since 2000 (Potato!) and I've decided to delurk and become more
involved with the Debian project, primarily to give something back and
become part of the community, but also to gain experience that
complements
Aníbal Monsalve Salazar wrote:
> You've forgotten Erinn (helix) Clark. :)
And Marga, and Ana, and Biella, and Marcela, and alphascorpii, in no
particular order, and only to mention the women.
> Erinn's talk in DebConf4 was very inpirational.
This is all there is, and worth watching too:
http://
2008/12/28 Sam Kuper :
> 2008/12/28 Ben Armstrong :
>> Aníbal Monsalve Salazar wrote:
>>> Erinn's talk in DebConf4 was very inpirational.
>>
>> [...]
>> Now you have piqued my curiosity. Was that talk
>> recorded and put online? I would like to hear it.
Linuxchix seems to suggest that the prese
2008/12/28 Ben Armstrong :
> Aníbal Monsalve Salazar wrote:
>> Erinn's talk in DebConf4 was very inpirational.
>
> [...]
> Now you have piqued my curiosity. Was that talk
> recorded and put online? I would like to hear it.
Ditto.
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Ben Armstrong
>As they mature, my girls
> will grow up to understand that not everyone will agree with them, and
> some of them are going to say hurtful and even bigoted things to them.
They encountered this recently, during the holidays from some of our
neighbour
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:27:16 +1100
Aníbal Monsalve Salazar wrote:
> You've forgotten Erinn (helix) Clark. :)
>
> Erinn and Amaya (together with the women who attended DebConf4 in Porto
> Alegre) started Debian Women in 2004.
>
> Erinn's talk in DebConf4 was very inpirational.
No slight intended
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:46:59 +0100
"Miriam Ruiz" wrote:
> I have two baby nieces now and I would really
> like to participate in whichever activities they choose without having
> any extra difficulties for being female. I would really want them to
> be able to join Debian sometime, and do stuff he
2008/12/28 Ariannah J. Armstrong :
> Hi! I thought since Ben posted an introduction, I will too :)
>
> I am Ariannah, and I'm married to Ben. Debian has been in our family
> for a long time, and our children are being raised on it as a
> home-educated family. I admire all t
Hi! I thought since Ben posted an introduction, I will too :)
I am Ariannah, and I'm married to Ben. Debian has been in our family
for a long time, and our children are being raised on it as a
home-educated family. I admire all the work that Ben has done with it
over the years. In my
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:00:03PM -0400, Ben Armstrong wrote:
>In particular, thanks Amaya and Miriam.
You've forgotten Erinn (helix) Clark. :)
Erinn and Amaya (together with the women who attended DebConf4 in Porto
Alegre) started Debian Women in 2004.
Erinn's talk in DebConf4 was very inpirat
2008/12/28 Ben Armstrong :
> Hi,
Hi Ben!!
> For years my goal has been to make Debian desirable for my own kids who
> now number four girls and one boy, and for families everywhere. Now
> that my boy and half of my girls are teens, I would like to think all
> of them could follow in their father
Hi,
For years my goal has been to make Debian desirable for my own kids who
now number four girls and one boy, and for families everywhere. Now
that my boy and half of my girls are teens, I would like to think all
of them could follow in their father's footsteps and join Debian,
should they want
Quoting Alexander Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
>
> Hi!
>
> * Anne S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070528 16:40]:
>
> > Because I don't have skills to build websites or programming, yet. I
> > think that participate to translation- or documentation project would be
> > easier way to me to contribute.
>
>
Hi!
* Anne S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070528 16:40]:
> Because I don't have skills to build websites or programming, yet. I
> think that participate to translation- or documentation project would be
> easier way to me to contribute.
Than http://www.debian.org/international/l10n/ddtp might be intere
> You're really welcome to participate, I'm pretty sure that the teams dealing
> with documentation and translation will be really glad to count with your
> help :) Or, if you ever become interested in any other part of Debian, or
The Finnish team certainly definitely would and, as all Finnish p
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 05:40:32PM +0300, Anne S wrote:
> I have reading this mailing list few weeks now and I think that I
> should introduce my self :)
Hi! :)
> Because I don't have skills to build websites or programming, yet. I
> think that participate to translation- or documentation proje
2007/5/28, Anne S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Greetings,
Hi! :)
I have reading this mailing list few weeks now and I think that I
should introduce my self :)
Welcome on board!!
My name is Anne Sorsa, I live in Finland (Northern Karelia). My passion
are computers, alternative operation syste
Greetings,
I have reading this mailing list few weeks now and I think that I
should introduce my self :)
My name is Anne Sorsa, I live in Finland (Northern Karelia). My passion
are computers, alternative operation systems like Linux. Maybe
alternative is not right word to describe that, but
Hi Carl,
> My name is Carl Welch and I represent Google Staffing in Mt. View, CA. I
> would very much like to have a conversation with you and yours (Linux
> Chicks), about a speaking engagement that I am trying to promote for our
> newly opened Sydney office.
OK. Sounds good. Is there someon
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 07:13:57 +0100
Christian Perrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > but for me it had more to do with not feeling "polite" enough and
> > > being accused of being too hostile/aggressive.
> >
> > Stronger emphasis on communication via subtext and innuendo, a focus
> > on superfici
Hi Hellen,
Am 2006-03-04 16:41:24, schrieb Helen Faulkner:
> I wonder how many of us are sysadmins, how many students, how many
> programmers,
> teachers, academics, or whatever we are. I think would be interesting
> to see
> the categories of work we do. Can anyone think of a sensible way to
>
Hi All,
Sara Smollett wrote:
> Delurking
Great!
> Hi, I'm Sara.
Welcom!
> I'm a sysadmin at a Silicon Valley, California tech company.
I wonder how many of us are sysadmins, how many students, how many programmers,
teachers, academics, or whatever we are. I think would be interesting to
Delurking
Hi, I'm Sara.
I'm a sysadmin at a Silicon Valley, California tech company.
I started using Debian 8 years ago, and I've been hooked on Linux since.
Mostly I run Debian, although recently I've been using Ubuntu at home.
I've been enjoying reading this list.
--- Sara Smollett
> > but for me it had more to do with not feeling "polite" enough and
> > being accused of being too hostile/aggressive.
>
> Stronger emphasis on communication via subtext and innuendo, a focus on
> superficial harmony instead of honesty and discussion (this may be what
> you experienced), commonl
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Hash: SHA1
Erinn Clark wrote:
> w00t! Game developers! I am sort of a budding one myself (currently
> making casual games go on airplanes using semi-embedded Linux...)
Just make sure you stay away from the bright, shiny EA sign :)
> What about female-dominated
Louis Moore, aka, lostinfog: semi retired computer security
analyst for The Children's Hospital in Denver.
Been a programmer in a number of languages (MIIS, PL/1, Fortran,
Vax Assembly (macro as it was called), perl, et. al); sys admined
AOS/VS, MVS/XA, VMS, ATT Sys V unix, Ultrix, Linux; man
Wow, thanks for everyone saying that they like my project, it's hard work so getting praise makes it feel like it's worthwhile!
Just out of curiosity -- since that is actually pretty young, especially(in my experience) for a woman to begin using Linux -- how were you
introduced to it?
My IT Teache
> I found DW via the DebConf5 recordings, and I'm very glad I did, as it's
> proven to be a wonderful gateway into Debian. I usually tend to avoid
> female-dominated environments, as I lack the social wiring required to
> make sense of most of them, but DW is a nice exception.
Well, about that pa
* linuxgirlie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006:02:25 21:45 +]:
> Haven't been a member for long but here goes...
>
> Hi, I am Jo, on the net I am 'known' as linuxgirlie.
Hello and welcome. :)
> I am from the UK and am a sys-admin in a secondary school, I am the
> co-founder of Karoshi (www.karos
* Camilla Berglund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006:02:28 03:37 +0100]:
> I'm elmindreda, although people in the real world insist on calling me
> Camilla. I'm an ex game developer who has slowly but surely fallen for
> the Unix way, finally ending up on a Debian desktop.
w00t! Game developers! I am sor
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Erinn Clark wrote:
> I like seeing these little bios from new members. :)
Hmm, okay then.
I'm elmindreda, although people in the real world insist on calling me
Camilla. I'm an ex game developer who has slowly but surely fallen for
the Unix way, fina
Hello,
My name is Vedran Vucic and I am involved in various civic movements in the
last 16 years or so. I also compose music for theatre and work with free
software in the last 10 years. I am on debain-women list because I think that
technology is not primarily male thing. I think that noo
Hi!
* Christian Perrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [060225 07:13]:
> Older members could also send mini bios, by the way.Who begins? :-)
Uhm... perhaps me? Since I have never send a bio but was lurking
arround for quite some time, you could say, that it's my turn ;)
Hi! My name is Alexander Sch
Hi all,
> Older members could also send mini bios, by the way.Who begins? :-)
I'm Pia Waugh, Debian was my first distro and even after trying a few other
distros I have always stuck with Debian and Debian derivatives, both for the
technical superiority and choice, as well as for the philoso
Quoting linuxgirlie ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> Haven't been a member for long but here goes...
>
> Hi, I am Jo, on the net I am 'known' as linuxgirlie.
>
> I am from the UK and am a sys-admin in a secondary school, I am the
> co-founder of Karoshi (www.karoshi.org.uk)
I overlooked the Karoshi main
Haven't been a member for long but here goes...
Hi, I am Jo, on the net I am 'known' as linuxgirlie.
I am from the UK and am a sys-admin in a secondary school, I am the co-founder of Karoshi (www.karoshi.org.uk)
I must admit that I don't use Debian as my desktop distro I use
Mandriva 2006, but
> Anyway, welcome aboard. I like seeing these little bios from new
> members. :)
Older members could also send mini bios, by the way.Who begins? :-)
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* Tina Isaksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006:02:24 07:45 +0100]:
> Hello to the list!
Hi Tina, welcome.
> My name is Tina, I'm living in Norway and just subscribed after learning
> about the Debian women project on the Debian user forum.
Oh hey, so word gets around? Good to know!
> About a year a
On 07:45 Fri 24 Feb 2006, Tina Isaksen wrote:
> I'm looking forward to learn more about the Debian women project and get
> to know you all.
Welcome on board!
--
David Moreno Garza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | http://www.damog.net/
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | GPG: C671257D
Sa
Hello to the list!
My name is Tina, I'm living in Norway and just subscribed after learning
about the Debian women project on the Debian user forum.
A short bio:
I started with computer when the 'home computer' came around in the mid
eighties writing all kinds of BASIC and later Pascal progra
On 27/05/2005, at 12:24 PM, Claudine Chionh wrote:
I'm just piping up to say that I have been lurking on this list to
get a
feel for the D-W project, but I haven't felt able to contribute. I
didn't
realise there were other people from Melbourne here. May I put in a
shameless plug for the Me
On 27/05/2005, at 10:13 AM, Rebecca Dridan wrote:
After lurking for quite some time, I thought I should introduce
myself.
My name is Bec, I'm doing a research Masters at the University of
Melbourne in Australia, and I've been a Debian user for over 5 years
(Debian only for about 3).
G'day
Helen Faulkner said:
> Hi Bec, hi all,
>
> Rebecca Dridan wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> After lurking for quite some time, I thought I should introduce myself.
>
> Welcome! I'm so pleased that you introduced yourself, because I'm in
Melbourne
> too and I didn't realise there were any other DW women around
Hi Bec, hi all,
Rebecca Dridan wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> After lurking for quite some time, I thought I should introduce myself.
Welcome! I'm so pleased that you introduced yourself, because I'm in Melbourne
too and I didn't realise there were any other DW women around here. Maybe we
can meet over
Hi all,
After lurking for quite some time, I thought I should introduce myself.
My name is Bec, I'm doing a research Masters at the University of
Melbourne in Australia, and I've been a Debian user for over 5 years
(Debian only for about 3).
With 2 part time jobs and study, I don't have the time
On Wed, May 11, 2005 at 09:49:45PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Michelle Klein-Hass wrote:
> > OK, please, folks...I need details! I actually *do* live in LA and want
> > to attend this gathering.
>
> Matt Zimmerman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is the person to talk to, who is
> orga
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Michelle Klein-Hass wrote:
> On 4/23/05, Geordie Birch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Cere Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [23 Apr 2005 12:04 -0700]:
> > > There is supposed to be some sort of Los Angeles Debian
> > > gathering (foodconf as it has apparently come to be called) in
> >
"MKH" == Michelle Klein-Hass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"CD" == Cere Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CD> There is supposed to be some sort of Los Angeles Debian
CD> gathering (foodconf as it has apparently come to be
CD> called) in mid May. Figured it would be good as many
CD> west coast Nort
Cere Davis wrote:
Geographic proximity to my hometown, Seattle. There is at least one
other debian-women member that I know of here in Seattle that also
works at the U of Washington named Avery.
Well, actually I'm "temporarily" in North Carolina, but my heart is
still in Seattle.
Cere's the
Well, I may have the date wrong or something but I heard this from the
debian-women irc channel. Seems hard to believe that something like
this is happening when no one is clarifying it one way or another.
-Cere
On 4/24/05, Michelle Klein-Hass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 4/23/05, Geordie Bir
On 4/23/05, Geordie Birch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Cere Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [23 Apr 2005 12:04 -0700]:
> > There is supposed to be some sort of Los Angeles Debian gathering
> > (foodconf as it has apparently come to be called) in mid May.
> > Figured it would be good as many west coast N
Cere Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [23 Apr 2005 12:04 -0700]:
Hi Cere, enjoying the beautiful day?
> I don't think I have formally written into this list yet but I
> especially like to say hello to folks that are somewhat in close
> Geographic proximity to my hometown, Seattle.
I'm sitting h
Hi Geordie,
I don't think I have formally written into this list yet but I
especially like to say hello to folks that are somewhat in close
Geographic proximity to my hometown, Seattle. There is at least one
other debian-women member that I know of here in Seattle that also
works at the U of Was
Hi. My name is Geordie Birch. I live in Vancouver Canada.
I have been a user of Debian since July 1999. In the past I have been
involved in local projects that encouraged the use of computers and
networks by people who might not otherwise have access. In 2000 we set
up a computer lab
Hi Meike and everyone,
Thanks for your introduction, Meike. It's nice to learn something about
the different people who are subscribed to this list.
So far I've only dealt with debian as a user. I've got it running on one
of my laptops and like it a lot. Guess I might even call
Hi all,
My name is Meike Reichle, I subscribed to this list a few days ago. Since
I don't know how "customs" are around here, I thought it might be
appropriate to write a short introduction email.
My name is, as said already, Meike. I am 23 years old and live in
Germany, close t
* stefani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004:07:25 19:07 -0700]:
> another unlurk here. I subscribed last week, after hearing mako and
> micah and matt tell me of this list. that was after i mentioned to them
> how few women seemed to have voted in the recent plebiscite on the sarge
> release.
Welcom
another unlurk here. I subscribed last week, after hearing mako and
micah and matt tell me of this list. that was after i mentioned to them
how few women seemed to have voted in the recent plebiscite on the sarge
release.
what i would hope to get, from those on this list, and Debian develo
Beautiful success story, thanks for sharing.
--
.''`. Resistance is futile. You will be componentized.
: :' :
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.6.6 Ext3)
`- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com
Greetings,
Unlurking, I subscribed a couple of weeks ago. I recognize some of the
LinuxChix here {wave} -- I've lurked over there since forever.
I'm a SysAdmin. Had an Intro to Unix course in 1996 that was taught
with GNU/Linux. That was cool, but then I got borged for some years
and built
I've been lurking quite a while, and finally thought I should get
around to an introduction :). I've used Linux (mostly debian) for near
4 years now on ancient PPC hardware. No reason to do things the easy
way :). I use it for my web server, and for a time as a router -
although tha
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