located. People
that had thought of funding things that turned out to be successful
could then be given larger budgets to play with in future.
Encouraging people to pool their budgets to fund bigger things would
hopefully result in them forming teams of mentors to oversee the work.
Cheers, Phil.
-
Jonathan Carter writes:
> On 2021/03/18 21:44, Philip Hands wrote:
>> I've been pondering how it might be possible to spend more of Debian's
>> money, and it occurred to me that we could allocate a budget to each DD
>> which they could spend on pretty-much a
in the hope that RMS will not
again be placed in a position where he can further tarnish his
reputation with his obnoxious opinions about things other than Free
Software.
Cheers, Phil.
[1] https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http:
for it to be announced with something like:
Having passed a General Resolution by majority vote[1],
the Debian project ...
so that it is very clear that there is room for dissenting opinion, and
with a link to the vote page so that anyone that is interested can
easily discover how individu
wants to maintain.
As Jonas points out, we'd almost certainly also demoralise the fine
people that already maintain loads of rather uninspiring packages, and
cause them to make the problem worse by orphaning those packages.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.C
groups and individuals who foster diversity and equality in
>> the Free Software movement in order to achieve our joint goal of
>> empowering all users to control technology.
>>
> [0] https://status.fsf.org/notice/3796703
>>
>> Heavily based on:
>>
>> [
d decide that in this case that an
appropriate interval would be e.g. no less than ten years.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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to be, and people flee to the extremes in order not to be accused
of being on the other side of the argument.
Is that really what we're seeing?
This GR seems to encompass a pretty broad spectrum of options, and I
don't think there was that much in the way of accusing people of being
as bad as t
want to continue going on about something, I
think FD is more likely to make them calm down than an explicit
prohibition against which they could feel righteous anger[1].
Cheers, Phil.
[1] prompting long and tedious threads about Freedom of Speech.
If you're looking for less discussion, vote FD ;-)
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
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|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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differ on such matters
simply because they assign those facts differing weights, rather falling
for the temptation to think that they are evil or stupid.
Cheers, Phil.
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
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|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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stence that one
ranks all options, so I seriously doubt that people who are going to the
trouble of filling in all the numbers would bother if they had no
interest in the actual outcome, which is what you are trying to imply.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM
Adam Borowski writes:
> On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 08:40:03AM +0200, Philip Hands wrote:
>> Adam Borowski writes:
>> > Here's how this works in the real world:
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey_vote
>> >
>> > As our ballots routinely
x27;t bother to rank 4 of the options in
the GR ballot.
Cheers, Phil.
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
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|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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ned with
> voters: By a narrow margin, people did not want to discuss the matter
> at all.
or (given how low down the order FD came) by a wide margin they didn't
want to talk about it any more -- either way, I agree with you on that.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 956
e such,
and thus missed the whole thing, but on the other hand it's also pretty
clear that some people were at the end of their endurance ... perhaps
they would have been driven to ignore the continuing discussion if it
had gone on longer, and thus been disenfranchised.
I don'
cretary.
Seconded.
Although, I think you should fix A.2.3 which currently says:
> ... sponsors stepping forward, it removed from the draft ballot.
^
which I'd suggest needs an 'is', or perhaps 'will be', between 'it' &
he outcome from that will be reasonable.
I don't see how encouraging people to vote who lack either an opinion on
the subject in hand, or the motivation to vote, is supposed to improve
the outcome.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hand
compromise in order to come to any conclusion about whether it might be
a good idea to do the the thing that we're really talking about.
Cheers, Phil.
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
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|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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eadable by the general public,
so would one way of addressing the concerns of attracting abuse would be
to make the tally sheet only available to DDs behind authentication?
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debia
Antonio Terceiro writes:
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 12:01:43PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>> On 2/14/22 10:36, Philip Hands wrote:
>> > I don't actually care if our votes are readable by the general public,
>> > so would one way of addressing the concerns of a
ow
people to continue being fearful that it might be something they should
expect.
I think going to a lot of effort to decide that ballots should be secret
strongly implies that we currently have such a problem, whether we do or
not, which seems only likely to amplify those fears regardless of
]
>
> That's an interesting thought. My immediate reaction is that the social
> signaling of who reveals their votes and who doesn't is a bit complicated
> and I'm not sure what effect it would have.
In a divisive argument, one grouping might well be able to expose their
27;s
behalf they may think they speak) to express support in the poll, which
may make the opposition realise that there is a wider spectrum of
opinion than they thought, which may lead to better debate.
Cheers, Phil.
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Russ Allbery writes:
> Philip Hands writes:
>
>> I was wondering if we could allow expressions of disdain
>> (anti-seconds?), such that a second would get cancelled out for every
>> two DDs (or maybe a larger multiple?) that respond to a call for seconds
>> with an
ut people being able to request a secret ballot in private, by
asking the secretary, who would keep a tally of requests and announce
whether the vote was to be secret before voting started?
BTW I had been persuaded that the published-only-internally option was
not really good enough by subseque
I think it
deserves to be an explicit option, because I can imagine that no
super-majority emerges in this vote, and if that happens then we will be
able to draw rather different conclusions about the project consensus
depending upon whether this option comes above or below NotA (and by how
much).
Cheers, Phil.
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ce and leave choices you consider unacceptable blank.
which to me suggests that if one ranks something as equal to NotA then
one is not marking it as unacceptable, so presumably it is counted as
acceptable -- is that how such votes are calculated?
It seems 8 people voted '--1-' and 3 vo
Russ Allbery writes:
> Philip Hands writes:
>
>> The blurb that's sent out with the votes says:
>
>> To vote "no, no matter what", rank "None of the above" as more
>> desirable than the unacceptable choices, or you may rank the "None
has the potential to give the false impression that Debian
supports Putin if enough people are against such statements (regardless
of their content), and vote NotA first to show that.
BTW I note that you are missing the 'e' from Ukraine in your GR, among
other typos, which reinforces the impression that you didn't really
devote much concentration to this GR.
Cheers, Phil.
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ps://debconf22.debconf.org/talks/43-fixing-the-firmware-mess/
> [4] https://incoming.debian.org/debian-buildd/dists/buildd-unstable
> [5] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2022/04/msg00214.html
>
> --
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
> You raise the blade, you make the change... You re-arrange me 'til I'm sane...
Seconded.
Thanks Steve.
Cheers, Phil.
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its were once
next-door to some non-free bits, would it make any difference if the
resulting images could be built reproducibly without access to any of
the non-free components?
I'm mostly asking this to find out where people's lines are, but also in
the hope that we could come up wi
ose a
better wifi card if they get the chance once they have managed their
first install, but if we continue to set up obstacles at the start then
they won't even be around to listen.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hands.com/http:
Steve McIntyre writes:
..
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 12:51:10PM +0200, Philip Hands wrote:
>>Debian with the non-free drivers...
>
> We're talking about non-free **firmware, not non-free
> **drivers**. Sorry to play the pedant card here (and I know you know
> the d
urrent, in whichever variant suits their
purpose best ("free" vs. "free+firmware").
Cheers, Phil.
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
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|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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s looks precisely like the change I think we should be making.
Likewise -- I think dropping the "we support ..." language makes the
meaning that we were always trying to convey much more obvious.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.h
etching that metaphor a little: making non-free firmware available
in the installer strikes me as equivalent to offering Wellington boots
to new arrivals at the beach, so that they can wade across the muddy
patch to get to the nice dry, sandy bit of beach where we play barefoot.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)|
Bill Allombert writes:
> Le Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 12:37:08PM +0200, Philip Hands a écrit :
>> Simon Josefsson writes:
>>
>> ...
>> > I agree it doesn't make sense for either organization to change
>> > approach. I do believe that what we are seein
way, I suspect the above isn't the first interpretation that comes to
mind of someone that voted the winning option top.
Cheers, Phil.
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hat it won't work out that way.
Instead, I worry that it will only touch people that are trying much
harder to do a good job, but cannot afford a full-time lobbying team in
Brussels.
Cheers, Phil.
--
Philip Hands -- https://hands.com/~phil
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e able to sign a statement that you want tag2upload to
act on that tag, but I thought that describing the options might help
narrow down what the perceived problem is.
Of course, without something describing exactly what the problem is from
the FTP master's point of view, it's very hard
e tag, would that be enough to satisfy
the FTP masters?
If so, is there anything that makes it difficult to create such a tool?
(my naive perception is that it's a lot easier to untar a tarball, and
check that the contents match a git checkout than it is to make sure
that git-archive is re
th
tomorrow's version from upstream.
If that's the rational choice which any well-informed uploader will
adopt, then such a limited tag2upload really serves no purpose.
Cheers, Phil.
--
Philip Hands -- https://hands.com/~phil
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xamination.
In our metaphor perhaps the git commit step would equate to requiring
doctors to touch a new Petri dish before each patient, which would at
least record what was going on, and might give the opportunity to deal
with the situation before real harm is done.
Cheers, Phil.
--
Philip Hands -- https://hands.com/~phil
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a version blind to the changes etc.)
Cheers, Phil.
--
Philip Hands -- https://hands.com/~phil
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t members.
to become
or if you prefer:
of becoming
> - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would
> appreciate them nonetheless.
Seconded.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/
|-|
a General Resolution is not required.
>
>
I don't suppose it's necessary, but since that perfectly fits my
thoughts on this subject:
Seconded.
Thank you for your efforts on this, and especially for this improved wording.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)|
ith old hardware), so on the whole this
doesn't affect me greatly either way (apart from the vast waste of time
involved in following the interminable arguments).
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
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that extent Debian is _not_ a democracy.
Also, note that one can very often do something useful for Debian
without going anywhere near the new maintainer queue, so this is much
more inclusive than the list of people who get a vote.
Thinking about any of this as a democratic failure, or the resul
> - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> 57dd4d7c-3e92-428f-8ab7-10de5172589e
> [ 5 ] Choice 1: Packages may not (in general) require a specific init system
> [ 3 ] Choice 2: Support for other init systems is recommended, but not
> mandatory
> [ 2 ] Choice 3:
Hi Neil,
Philip Hands writes:
>> - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>> 57dd4d7c-3e92-428f-8ab7-10de5172589e
...
Oh, oops! maybe you should set the Reply-To for bears of little brain
like me.
I'm sure you probably do so normal
w.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/rearguard-action
You seem to have misunderstood that, and have based much of the rest of
your post on that misunderstanding.
Cheers, Phil.
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.or
rule would just encourage them to be difficult to
work with in the hope that a couple of less senior members became fed up
enough to leave early.
It doesn't seem wise to have such an incentive to behave badly.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|
e two subtle variants:
> - only resignations from people > 4.5y count in R' (Anthony's)
> - only resignations from people who would have been expired count in S
> (yours)
FWIW I think either of those deals with the concerns I raised, as it's
going to be way too much
Anthony Towns writes:
> On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 07:51:16PM +0000, Philip Hands wrote:
>> Lucas Nussbaum writes:
>> > - only resignations from people who would have been expired count in S
>> FWIW I think either of those deals with the concerns I raised, as it'
e earlier appointment, and
appoint them a minute earlier, or some such. That decision can be made
on any basis that the people in the TC feel reasonable at the time. The
timestamps of the emails where the candidates declare that they're
willing to be appointed would be a reasonable default.
Philip Hands writes:
> Wouter Verhelst writes:
>
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:33:10AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
>> [...]
>>> 2. A member of the Technical Committee is said to be more senior
>>> than another if they were
Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
> If people really want to add a tie breaking rule,
I was mostly trying to get rid of the need for one.
How about just saying that appointments must be done one at a time?
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| h
Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
> On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 09:00:11PM +0000, Philip Hands wrote:
>> Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
>> > If people really want to add a tie breaking rule,
>>
>> I was mostly trying to get rid of the need for one.
>>
>> How about
in their current term on the committee: whoever was appointed
first is considered to be the more senior.
I'm not proposing this as an amendment yet, but if it meets with general
approval, I will, and it it seems to upset anyone I'll just drop it.
I'd personally prefer the simplicity,
mehow it will magically do itself.
It does not strike me as obvious that popularity correlates to
competence. Also, it would not be helpful if members of the committee
were tempted to take the popular side of an argument, against their
better judgement, because they were coming to the end of their ter
ently, as you point out, the announcement order for vorlon/aba
coincides with the way the tie-breaker would have acted anyway, so we
can just say that vorlon was appointed moments before aba and all is
well, and the problem never needs to arise again, so no complicated
clauses required.
Ch
Hi Kurt,
You should probably have included a
Reply-To: gr_cttet...@vote.debian.org
in the absence of that, people need to concentrate :-)
Cheers, Phil.
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse
Kurt Roeckx writes:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 09:48:45AM +0000, Philip Hands wrote:
>> Hi Kurt,
>>
>> You should probably have included a
>>
>> Reply-To: gr_cttet...@vote.debian.org
>>
>> in the absence of that, people need to concentrate :-)
gt;- GENERAL RESOLUTION ENDS -
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1
>
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3h0PAAoJENrvwFpthGSOgRIH/iHtX2bvWjRabw58huFsgaVn
> MX0D3JPXZlaPv9b8doerfuhQQc4MJHEhqDyz4Bd93L2tzHfs/ZYqSVOlEQC1JalJ
> 7/ZV7Qyr9QNRtU6RMP0v5F3PoDpZGn454V4bKiaqcwsvM/WAzPxHZPsyy1
If a supermajority of S:1 is required for A, its majority
> ratio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Constitutional Amendment: Fix duplicate section numbering.
>
>The current Debian Constitution has two sections numbered A.1.
>This does not currently give rise to a
t;
>The current Debian Constitution has two sections numbered A.1.
>This does not currently give rise to any ambiguity but it is
>undesirable.
>
>Fix this with the following semantically neutral amendment:
>
> - Renumber the first section A.1
on
>
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
>
> === END GR TEXT ===
Seconded.
--
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|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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here else.
>
> Except I'm not posting to debian-private, but to debian-vote. Oh,
> silly me.
In light of the preceding mail, I can only agree with your final assessment.
Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hands.com/http://ft
s getting contentious. Should we submit it to the
> Technical Committee for them to recommend an optimal way out?
If possible, the subject experts should make such decisions -- assuming
that we're talking about an armchair, how about moving this discussion
to debian-arm?
Cheers, Phil.
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|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
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|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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o solve
> non-problems.
Quite.
I'm yet to be convinced that there exists anyone that would be upset by
the fact that our security team might abide by embargoes in supposed
defiance of 'not hide problems'. I am also not convinced that if there
does exist such a person, and they ar
I think we have a problem with the way the current vote came about.
[ I'm cross-posting this, because it seems that people managed to miss what is
going on what with messages being spread across debian-vote, and
debian-publicity. Please follow up to -publicity]
>From talking to people over the
Chris Waters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Ah, so your suggestion is that we continue discussing and debating the
> idea for a few more YEARS!?! The entire logo issue has been on hold
> since, what, '97? Late '96?
>
> If we had a concensus, we wouldn't need a vote, yes? Or am I missing
> someth
> Philip Hands <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > My complaint comes from the fact that there was absolutely no
> > discussion about this new vote prior to it being proposed.
>
> If that were true, I might sympathize. Since it's not true, I have to
> wonde
Stephane Bortzmeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I suggest also to purge master of non-free software, if we are
> really serious about free software purity:
SSH
Difficult to replace at present.
Once lsh is a little more mature, then it will be a different story,
but not yet.
Cheers, Phil.
Chris Waters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On -vote yes, because most of the seconders had already posted
> comments on -devel. All the discussion seems to have been on -devel,
> in fact. (You'll have to check the archives on master if you don't
> believe me, because the stuff on the web page is woefull
> Philip Hands <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > I'll leave you with a fairly simple question:
>
> > I like the swirl logo, and want it to be widely used.
> > I don't like the bottle logo, and don't want it as our official logo.
> >
>
Chris Waters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Philip Hands <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Where was the swap discussed?
> On -devel. (I wasn't even subscribed to -vote until last night.)
Oh, I saw Brenden's comment that he might propose a swap (but didn't wa
> There was discussion of swapping the official and unofficial images
> for a number of submissions to both the Gimp contest and the logo
> vote. Not just the swirl. Many people said, "what if I like , but
> want them swapped?" It's an idea that's been in the air the whole
> time. I have no ide
Edward Brocklesby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Please offer sensible, well considered, useful comments. Replies from
> rude, abrasive people (you know who you are) will be ignored.
How very diplomatic of you ;-)
> 3. The Project Leader's Delegate(s) may decide not to admit any new
>
Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dale Scheetz wrote:
> > The project secretary has already said that he has seen no proposal,
> > properly submitted, that anyone can act upon, according to our
> > constitution.
> >
> > Until a proposal has been properly made to debian-vote, there can be no
h this, and simply
having a chat with the listmasters -- you never know, you might manage
to become persuasive at some point.
Cheers, Phil.
[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2025/03/msg00269.html
[2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2025/03/msg00015.html
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