Agreed. Maybe it helps to summarize the options, my take is:
Proposal A replaces the free installer by one containing and sometimes
enabling non-free firmware -- there is no more free installer
Proposal B gives the free installer less visibility than the non-free one
Proposal C allows
Russ Allbery writes:
> I think it is possible to argue in good faith that the Debian installer is
> not part of the Debian system as defined in SC 1. I would not personally
> make that argument, but I don't think it's an unreasonable argument to say
> that the Debian system is the packages in ou
Steve McIntyre writes:
>>I think the difference of opinion is that your proposal is based on the
>>argument that it is worth compromising on the ideals of free software in
>>order to allow users to be able to run free software. I disagree with
>>that opinion. If you disagree with my characteriz
On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 05:00:37PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>
>What still puzzles me is that I regarded myself as having worked with a
>lot of computer hardware over the years, without experiencing the kind
>of situation described here. Yes, some hardware doesn't work with
>Debian, but no I w
Simon Josefsson writes:
> Thanks -- this helps me understand the two principles at play here:
> 1) having a free Debian
> 2) having a Debian that works on as much hardware as possible
This summary is moving in the right direction! But your phrasing of 2)
isn't the principle that I personally
Steve McIntyre writes:
> Many common laptops in the last 5-10 years don't come with wired
> ethernet; it's becoming rarer over time. They ~all need firmware
> loading to get onto the network with wifi. Many now need firmware for
> working non-basic video, and audio also needs firmware on some of
Russ Allbery dijo [Sun, Sep 11, 2022 at 01:38:59PM -0700]:
> Hi all,
>
> Moving this into a separate thread from all the discussion for a bit more
> visibility.
>
> Thank you for all the discussion over the past couple of days about my
> proposal and about possible rewordings to point 5 of the So
Simon Josefsson writes:
> I recall that it took ~5 years until hardware (usually audio, video,
> network cards) was well supported with stable releases of free software
> distributions in the 1990's. Often it was never possible to get some
> hardware to work with free software, especially laptop
Gunnar Wolf writes:
> Now, my thinking wandered off to the following timeline:
> almost-nowoVoting is open with the A,B,C,D,E option set.
> |We know the Secretary has warned that some options
> |winning might trigger his obligation to mark the
>
Russ Allbery dijo [Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 10:52:46AM -0700]:
> If we happen to fall down this leg of the Trousers of Time, I would be
> inclined to explicitly reinstate option A in any SC ballot options that
> would make A consistent with the SC as revised.
>
> In practice, I think this specific out
On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 at 19:20:29 +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Steve McIntyre writes:
> > Many common laptops in the last 5-10 years don't come with wired
> > ethernet; it's becoming rarer over time. They ~all need firmware
> > loading to get onto the network with wifi. Many now need firmware for
Russ Allbery writes:
> Simon Josefsson writes:
>
>> Thanks -- this helps me understand the two principles at play here:
>
>> 1) having a free Debian
>
>> 2) having a Debian that works on as much hardware as possible
>
> This summary is moving in the right direction! But your phrasing of 2)
> is
Russ Allbery writes:
> Simon Josefsson writes:
>
>> I recall that it took ~5 years until hardware (usually audio, video,
>> network cards) was well supported with stable releases of free software
>> distributions in the 1990's. Often it was never possible to get some
>> hardware to work with fr
Simon Josefsson writes:
> Russ Allbery writes:
>> When I first got deeply interested in free software in the late 1990s,
>> I looked around and saw two basic mindsets towards free software. I'd
>> classify those as the FSF approach and the Debian approach. The FSF
>> decided to go down the rou
Simon Josefsson writes:
> Russ Allbery writes:
>> I think what you're missing is that this changed about ten or fifteen
>> years ago. I can now buy a new off-the-shelf computer and run Debian on
>> it *immediately* because Linux now supports modern hardware and you don't
>> have to run ancient
Hi,
On Mon, 2022-09-12 at 21:03 +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> My experience is the same as you describe, with the free installer:
> if you pick the right hardware, Debian works directly today.
By "right hardware", I assume you mean hardware that comes with already
preinstalled non-free software
Thanks for long post, thoughtful and I only have a reflection left:
>> Okay. But given a situation when someone comes to you with a hardware
>> component that requires non-free software to work, and asks you to
>> install Debian on it, would you resolve that by
>
>>1) install the free Debian
Simon Josefsson writes:
> Wonderful -- it is good that I am able to finally express your view in a
> way that you actually agree with.
Yes, thank you very much for your thoughtful and productive engagement in
this thread! It's really satisfying to be able to talk about things that
provoke stron
Le Sun, Sep 11, 2022 at 08:19:26AM +0200, Simon Josefsson a écrit :
> The problem is caused by hardware manufacturer chosing to require
> non-free works for their use. The blame for that choice lies on the
> hardware manufacturer, not on Debian. Accepting the blame for someone
> else's choices an
On September 12, 2022 8:23:22 PM UTC, Bill Allombert
wrote:
>Le Sun, Sep 11, 2022 at 08:19:26AM +0200, Simon Josefsson a écrit :
>> The problem is caused by hardware manufacturer chosing to require
>> non-free works for their use. The blame for that choice lies on the
>> hardware manufacturer
On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 08:18:13PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>Russ Allbery writes:
...
>Okay. But given a situation when someone comes to you with a hardware
>component that requires non-free software to work, and asks you to
>install Debian on it, would you resolve that by
>
> 1) install
On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 01:13:33PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>Simon Josefsson writes:
>
>> Wonderful -- it is good that I am able to finally express your view in a
>> way that you actually agree with.
>
>Yes, thank you very much for your thoughtful and productive engagement in
>this thread! It's
In reading your messages, I think I have the same position as you, but
I'm confused by our different tentative rankings.
On 9/12/22 15:13, Russ Allbery wrote:
For full disclosure, my vote is likely E>B>C>A>NOTA>D.)
I agree insofar as: E > B > C > NOTA > D
I put A in a different spot: A > B >
Richard Laager writes:
> I agree insofar as: E > B > C > NOTA > D
> I put A in a different spot: A > B > C. You have B > C > A.
> E is A plus the SC modification. With E as your first choice, why
> wouldn't you put A > B?
I'm concerned about the potential complications of a conflict with the S
Ansgar writes:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, 2022-09-12 at 21:03 +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>> My experience is the same as you describe, with the free installer:
>> if you pick the right hardware, Debian works directly today.
>
> By "right hardware", I assume you mean hardware that comes with already
> p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RWdELdiws4&t=5756s
On 9/13/22, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Ansgar writes:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Mon, 2022-09-12 at 21:03 +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>>> My experience is the same as you describe, with the free installer:
>>> if you pick the right hardware, Debian work
On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 08:23:22PM +, Bill Allombert wrote:
> > The problem is caused by hardware manufacturer chosing to require
> > non-free works for their use. The blame for that choice lies on the
> > hardware manufacturer, not on Debian. Accepting the blame for someone
> > else's choice
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