Re: Can I donate in bitcoin?

2014-08-27 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, August 27, 2014 04:54, martin f krafft wrote: > also sprach Russ Allbery [2014-08-26 19:43 -0700]: >> I believe Debian's major expenses are Debconf, team meetings >> (mostly travel and possibly some lodging and food), and computing >> hardware. I would be surprised if Bitcoin were useful

Re: Debian Quiz game

2014-10-03 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, October 2, 2014 11:45, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > It would be great if a team could magically form to maintain it as a > Debian package. I'm Ccing people who already expressed interest in > helping with this, but feel free to just join the fun! Maybe this fun Debian Quiz could also serve as s

Re: Dropping the .0 on release numbers?

2010-09-15 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On tiisdei 14 Septimber 2010, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > So, for the past years we have had x.0.y with growing `y' for point > releases, and skiping to (x+1).0.0. And the zero in the middle carries > no meaning anymore. It also doesn't do any harm, does it? I would vastly prefer not to change our versi

Re: Squirrelmail package availability question

2011-01-20 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hi Douglas, On Thursday 20 January 2011 16:45:50 g...@ccil.org wrote: > I'm curious why only eleven Squirrelmail plug-ins seem to be available as > Debian packages: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=squirrelmail > > Specifically, I don't see that the Unsafe Image Rules plug-in is availab

Re: Security guidelines for Debian people

2011-11-05 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, November 3, 2011 18:44, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: > On Thu, 03 Nov 2011, Jakub Wilk wrote: >> * Lars Wirzenius , 2011-10-30, 17:33: >> >>Personally, I think some guidelines for DD's about securing >> >>their personal machines where their private keys are located >> >>would be a goo

Re: Report from DSA Team Sprint in Oslo

2012-03-21 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Tue, March 20, 2012 09:06, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: >> Shouldn't the various teams handling the group take care of managing >> them? Do they currently fail at that? > > I think we can say that yes, they generally fail at asking for people to > be removed from groups. I'm still a member of webwml

Re: Report from DSA Team Sprint in Oslo

2012-03-21 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, March 21, 2012 13:16, Clint Adams wrote: > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:07:30AM +0100, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: >> So I would advise to only make an effort to 'clean up' groups that have >> sufficiently 'dangerous' consequences attached to them. > > The

Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

2012-03-29 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, March 29, 2012 04:27, Paul Wise wrote: > Probably you missed the part of the email that says we should add > t=debian by default to every new DDG search URL? I would suggest that > it should be up to the users what t= should be set to when sending > search requests to DDG, not Debian. I'm

Re: Claiming the "debian" account on GitHub ? (was: Re: Packaging on GitHub ?)

2012-06-14 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, June 14, 2012 16:56, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 09:31:39AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: >> I have not added links to their competitors, as I think that it would >> be bad taste, but yes, I invite every developer to consider Free >> alternatives such as Gitorious or

Re: RFC - Changing current policy of debian.net entries

2012-06-25 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Fri, June 22, 2012 23:01, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: > There is nothing carved into stone yet! I just want to hear your > comments on this. The key point is that lay users will not understand > the difference between debian.net and debian.org, and we should not > require that they do. The purpose

Re: trademark policy draft

2012-08-06 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, August 1, 2012 18:54, Russ Allbery wrote: > Lars Wirzenius writes: > >> I'll leave the discussion with this counter suggestion: change the >> trademark policy to say: > >> We call ourselves the Debian project. You can use our name as long >> as it doesn't make reasonable people con

Re: trademark policy draft

2012-08-14 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Tue, August 14, 2012 16:51, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > I agree with this. In dealing with lawyers on behalf of Debian, I've > quickly learned that there are almost never "100% safe" or "100% risky" > positions. It is *always* a cost/benefit/risk analysis. You ask the > experts to evaluate the r

Re: ditching the official use logo?

2012-10-01 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, October 1, 2012 12:27, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > I haven't touched (nor looked into) the official logo. My impression is > that that that logo is massively underused and basically unknown to most > of our public out there. My personal take on it is that we should simply > ditch it, focusi

Re: ditching the official use logo?

2012-10-08 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, October 8, 2012 16:52, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: > Right now, the way I understand it is that you can, in a DFSG and legal > way, create a document with the Debian logo & brand, and create a > "certificate" that looks to be from Debian, and sell them as some sort > of certification from Debia

Re: ditching the official use logo?

2012-10-08 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, October 8, 2012 20:54, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: > On Mon, Oct 08, 2012 at 08:48:40PM +0200, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: >> On Mon, October 8, 2012 16:52, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: >> > Right now, the way I understand it is that you can, in a DFSG and >> legal >> >

Re: mjg59's blog on planet.d.o

2012-10-30 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Tue, October 30, 2012 12:38, Jakub Wilk wrote: > * Lars Wirzenius , 2012-10-30, 09:45: >>>AFAIK Matthew Garrett hasn't been "active and directly involved >>>participant in the Debian development community" for years. What is >>>the reason for keeping his blog on planet.d.o? >>Matthew has been bl

Re: Copyright assignement for Debian tools?

2013-02-11 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, February 11, 2013 14:54, Antonio Terceiro wrote: > There are several cases where upstream explicitly puts "Copyright 2013 The > Foo Developers" and similar statements. Are they invalid as well? If they > are valid, wouldn't "Copyright 2013 Debian Project" have the similar (if > not the same

Re: gravatar on bugs.debian.org - acceptable or not?

2013-03-16 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Fri, March 15, 2013 21:03, Simon Paillard wrote: > Regardless avatar on/off, I really miss the CSS that used to have a grey > background for email headers in BTS. You have an old version of the CSS cached. Use shift-F5 to solve this. Cheers, Thijs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project

Re: Debating difficult development issues in essay form

2013-05-10 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Op donderdag 9 mei 2013 23:40:45 schreef Wouter Verhelst: > I do agree that sometimes, mailinglists aren't the best possible medium > to hold a discussion. However, I'm not convinced that your proposal is > the best way to fix that. I think that with all its flaws, mailinglists > (and/or usenet) ar

Re: PaySwarm-based Debian donations

2013-06-18 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Tue, June 18, 2013 04:31, Martin Owens wrote: > On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 19:03 -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: >> site requesting user's charity > > You mean user's involvement. You don't want users to be invited to > participate in Debian. Debian isn't elitist and it shouldn't care that > the tool being

Re: Survey of new contributors -- results

2013-08-08 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, August 7, 2013 21:52, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > 22/37 were sponsored as part of a team > 10/37 had a friend or colleague sponsor them > 5/37 were sponsored as part of debian-mentors > > Other things mentioned (once): > - sponsored by the previous maintainer when adopting a package > - sponsor

Re: Authorizing minor expenses by DSA without prior DPL approval

2013-09-12 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, August 28, 2013 18:12, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > ]] Lucas Nussbaum > >> I like this idea of "max outstanding of $300" instead of an explicit >> time limit. But I think that your proposal makes it possible for DSA to >> not get reimbursed if the DPL is grumpy and decides not to approve the >>

Re: Paths into Debian

2013-09-23 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, September 23, 2013 14:46, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > Did you tag them 'gift'? > https://wiki.debian.org/qa.debian.org/GiftTag This may just be me, as it's very personal, and no offense intended at you, but I really detest the name 'gift' of that tag and that prevents me from using it. Taggin

Re: Paths into Debian

2013-09-25 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Tue, September 24, 2013 14:02, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 07:51:53AM -0400, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: >> Its not just you - while I appreciate using a word other than bitesized >> or >> low-hanging-fruit, I tend to get the same slightly off putting feeling >> about "gift"

Re: Possibly moving Debian services to a CDN

2013-10-16 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, October 16, 2013 15:01, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > I do realize that most of the value of a CDN is not in its software > parts. But I'm under the impression there is still quite a bit of > software behind commercial CDN offerings. So my question is: would the > CDN providers we're going to

Re: Possibly moving Debian services to a CDN

2013-11-20 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, November 20, 2013 19:03, anarcat wrote >>> And saying that "because there's proprietary firmware in your BIOS it's >>> okay to offload all of Debian's infrastructure to a non-free CDN is >>> okay" >>> seems to me to be a slippery slope. >> >> Nobody has talked about moving all of Debian's i

Re: Please update the DSA delegation

2013-12-05 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, December 5, 2013 02:15, Ian Jackson wrote: > I would go further and say that I think it would be better to do > things differently. For a team which is functioning well, it would be > helpful if the DPL delegated to the team the authority over its own > composition, explicitly reserving th

Re: Please update the DSA delegation

2013-12-05 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, December 5, 2013 11:46, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > This was discussed in > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2013/05/msg00018.html. > Main points are: > * it facilitates the monitoring of the team manpower, which helps > taking proactive actions before things get too difficult. > * it

Re: Need debian lenny source code

2013-12-13 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hi Venkatesh, On Fri, December 13, 2013 09:44, Venkatesh Pawar wrote: > I am Venkatesh Pawar need a link for debian lenny os source code for > some operation purpose. So can you please tell me from where should i > download source code of debian lenny os. It will be great help if uou help > me

Re: Debian services and Debian infrastructure

2014-01-06 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, January 6, 2014 11:38, Stephen Gran wrote: > I don't think jumping straight to a solution that puts all of the > responsibility for every idea for a service in Debian on DSA shoulders is > either the only way to go or even a good way to go.  There are plenty > of bad ideas that should be al

Re: link removal

2014-01-10 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hi Peter, On Fri, January 10, 2014 02:45, link master wrote: > My name is Pete Crisaf and I’m getting in touch on behalf of our company > www.dzineit.net .We noticed that you’ve linked to our website on your page > > with the text (new york web design) and am requesting that > you remove the link.

Re: systemd bad press? score card?

2014-02-10 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, February 10, 2014 18:26, Daniel Pocock wrote: > http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/open-sauce/63079-debian-init-system-vote-has-become-a-farce > > finishes off with the line "And users are still expected to take this > lot seriously." > > Not really objective journalism Even if obj

Re: 20140407 keyring report

2014-04-22 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sun, April 20, 2014 06:12, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Kurt Roeckx dijo [Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 12:51:45AM +0200]: >> On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 09:41:40PM +, Clint Adams wrote: >> > Upon request. Made with an unpackaged set of keyrings[0]. >> >> Thanks for the update. >> (...) >> So we seem to making

Re: Debian squeeze/LTS

2014-06-12 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hi René, On Thu, June 12, 2014 10:54, René Bleisch wrote: > Hi, > are there any news concerning the planned LTS of Squeeze? (How to get it > and so on) > I'm quite a bit frustated: > > * there were no more news since 26. April. > * the standard support has ended by 31.May (no news about it ?!)

Re: Pro-ftpd 1.3.3a

2014-06-16 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hi Juan, On Mon, June 16, 2014 20:35, Juan Barrera wrote: > My name is Juan Barrera. I am a security analyst at Trustwave. I am > looking for information about whether or not Proftpd-1.3.3a is going > continue receiving support. Visiting: > https://www.debian.org/News/2014/20140424 says that De

Re: Complaint about #debian operator

2005-12-12 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, 2005-12-12 at 13:41 +0100, martin f krafft wrote: > But your post makes it all the more clear that *a lot* of Debian > people need to get the facts straight, and that a Debian vs. Ubuntu > comparison on #debian is definitely not out of place. My biggest surprise whas that the channel opera

Re: Stable security support

2005-12-21 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 12:08 +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote: > On Tuesday 20 December 2005 19.33, Anthony Towns wrote: > > ... it's worth considering a GR ... > > I really liked your analysis up to that point. > > I can't see any reason why we would need a GR here. I think it's an interesting app

Re: Hi, request to remove spammed links from http://lists.debian.org/

2006-01-21 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hello Koen, > This is a request to remove spam from > http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-portuguese/2002/01/msg00026.html. > My reason for requesting the removal of this page is that it is the most > powerful link (on google) for bethedealer.com, a poker website that spams > alot. Koen Every mes

Re: For those who care about stable updates

2006-03-09 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 14:59 +, Thaddeus H. Black wrote: > The time has come for the peasants to bear up the hill > on which James is king the message: James, your service > is recognized, but enough is enough. Have you considered, before sending this, that you might have only heard one side

Re: Re: uol.com.br and petsupermarket

2006-03-14 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 22:46 -0300, Guilherme de S. Pastore wrote: > You have dropped a nuclear bomb to kill a > cockroach, and the cockroach is still alive. I consider this a bit of a hyperbole. Appearently you can still read and post to the lists, albeit through another account. It might be anno

Re: About expulsion requests

2006-03-19 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sun, 2006-03-19 at 13:32 +0100, Harald Geyer wrote: > I don't want future employers to be able to google about my bugs. http://bugs.debian.org/robots.txt Thijs :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Reforming the NM process

2006-04-11 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hey Marc, Thanks for this initiative; I'd just decided to not get involved in the threads on -newmaint anymore because even though I feel strongly about the issue, the threads were just a repeat of themselves. However, your mail seems to be different, in that it comes from someone actually involve

Re: Reforming the NM process

2006-04-13 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 21:33 +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: > Michael Banck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > [...] > > I am not sure 6 months of sustained contributions is really necessary, I > > think "several months" or "sustained contributions" are alright, where > > both measures are up for i

Re: Reforming the NM process

2006-04-13 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 08:39 +0200, Benjamin Mesing wrote: > > like your studies (beeing in a computer science PhD/MSC "helps"), > Well this might be interesting for the Debian project, but applicants > might not want this to become public knowledge. Please do not assume, > that this is for any par

Re: irc.debian.org

2006-05-03 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sun, 2006-04-30 at 19:34 +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > I've heard it suggested by a variety of people that we should move the > official irc.debian.org alias away from freenode to oftc. I can see > that more and more of my own Debian IRC discussions are on oftc, to > the extent that I'm (curren

Re: irc.debian.org

2006-05-06 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sat, 2006-05-06 at 07:27 +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > "de facto standard" (which is a contradiction anyway) I disagree because I'm using de facto as a modifier to standard, but that's off topic here. > Try asking: how hard is it for project funds to be used to pay > someone's entire personal mobile

Re: irc.debian.org

2006-05-06 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sat, 2006-05-06 at 13:09 +0100, Simon Huggins wrote: > > Since Debian doesn't donate any money to Freenode, I think that the > > question of donation spending is not relevant to what network Debian > > should choose as its default. > > By pointing irc.d.o at freenode, it says "Debian supports f

Re: Using the Debian open use logo to distinguish DFSG-compatible licenses

2006-05-19 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, 2006-05-18 at 12:34 -0400, Evan Prodromou wrote: > So: if there's a public statement by Debian or > debian-legal on a license (like http://people.debian.org/~evan/ccsummary > is now), would it be misleading for an organization to point to that > statement? Especially if it was clear that th

Re: Donations

2006-06-10 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hello Wouter, On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 12:45 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > Perhaps a formulation like > > Since Debian has no authority to hold money or property, any > monetary donations for the Debian Project must be made to an > organization that has been vetted by the DPL to

Re: Donations

2006-06-10 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 18:51 +0100, David Pashley wrote: > Presumably because transfering money between countries involves > non-neglegable cost, where as transfer of ownership of hardware > doesn't[0]. I understand that - my point is that I don't see a clear reason to *disallow* other of such "vet

Re: Shouldn't we have more ftp masters ?

2006-06-10 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 15:10 +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > If you can't think of anything useful to do, > you might like to look at http://ftp-master.debian.org/unmet-deps/ for > a bunch of ftp-masterish problems that no one else is looking at much > these days. Might be a dumb question, but isn't

Re: Call for a new DPL mediation ... This will be the only thread i will reply to in the next time about this issue.

2006-06-20 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 23:32 -0500, Ean Schuessler wrote: > Social politics creeping into Debian is one of the greater mortal > dangers that we face. I surely hope not. Your mail suggests that someone who has severe social problems but is technically competent is per definition fit as a developer.

Re: Constitutional Amendment GR: Handling assets for the project

2006-07-24 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sun, 2006-07-23 at 23:47 -0400, Joe Smith wrote: > That is true. However this ammendment substancially changes the section > that talks about SPI, so it would be reasonable to have SPI's board look at > it if they so desire. > At best they could find some text that ought to be tweeked, and at w

Re: package ownership in Debian

2006-07-29 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sat, 2006-07-29 at 08:48 +0200, Martin Schulze wrote: > There's a nother problem with team maintained packages. The Security > Team has to work on packages that are team-maintained in sid every > once in a while. Often we want to get in touch with the maintainer > privately before disclosure o

Re: Packages awaiting proposed-updates moderation

2006-08-02 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, 2006-08-02 at 10:50 +0200, Loïc Minier wrote: > I don't quite understand the various steps that a package traverses > when uploaded to SPU. Is some document explaining that? In short, I > would just like to understand the number of steps, the human-triggered > transitions, and the pub

Re: Filibustering general resolutions

2006-09-19 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Tue, 2006-09-19 at 10:09 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > The project should decide how it wants to handle filibustering, > if it feels like doing anything about it, of course. But now, any GR > has a veto contingent of only 6 developers. How about we see how to solve that when it act

Re: DWN

2006-10-16 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Sun, 2006-10-15 at 20:18 -0400, Hubert Chan wrote: > I also appreciated the package summaries at the bottom of DWN. > (e.g. these are new packages in the archive this week, these packages > have been orphaned, etc). Is there some other easy way to find that > information? They are automatical

Re: Why is there only self-nomination? [Re: Expulsion process: Sven Luther]

2007-03-02 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 22:39 +0100, Luk Claes wrote: > Personally, I think the idea of a DD having to ack his nomination, though only > after being nominated by some (Q?) fellow DDs would be better than a plain > self-nomination. What do others think? What would be better about it? I haven't seen

Re: When Debian 4.1 will arrive... will anyone care?

2007-04-20 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Fri, 2007-04-20 at 19:43 +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: > 1. why is this allegedly a 'benefit'? what's so special about > libraries? > why is a new libc6 or libssl etc more scary than a new apache or php > etc? When using a backports package, the breakage is confined to that package. When pulling

Re: DEP1: Non Maintainer Uploads (final call for review)

2008-08-19 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
Hi, Sorry for breaking the thread and chiming in late, I was until recently not aware of this thread and not subscribed to debian-project. I hope my comments can still be considered. >The version must be the version of the last upload, plus +nmuX, >This special versioning is needed to

Re: DEP1: Non Maintainer Uploads (final call for review)

2008-08-20 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wednesday 20 August 2008 10:06, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > On 20/08/08 at 09:38 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Aug 2008, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: > > > The past weeks I had several encounters with the situation that a > > > maintainer completely overlooked a

Re: DEP1: Non Maintainer Uploads (final call for review)

2008-08-21 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Thu, August 21, 2008 10:33, Steve Langasek wrote: > On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 01:33:16PM +0200, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: >> But perhaps we need another mechanism to signal this. Consecutive >> uploads to the same distribution should not cause previously present >> version entr

Re: DEP1: Non Maintainer Uploads (final call for review)

2008-08-21 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, August 20, 2008 14:14, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > Say stable and testing have 1.0-1. Sid has 1.0-2. > stable-security has 1.0-1+etch1 The maintainer wants to upload something to > t-p-u. If we had a codename that sorted before etch we would be screwed. I don't think we're "screwed", rather t

Re: DEP1: Non Maintainer Uploads (final call for review)

2008-08-24 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Friday 22 August 2008 15:49, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > Conclusion: we need a way to version stable/testing uploads that avoids > this. While I'm not convinced that it's a pressing issue that needs resolving, if people badly want it I'll use the new system. > I think that instead, we should use

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

2008-11-26 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, November 26, 2008 11:12, martin f krafft wrote: > You may be 70 and capable to do a job which required me to invest 2 years > into you, I'd be with you if the ad required a maximum age that was actually somewhere close to the pension age. Your example does not compare with the arbitrary ag

Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes

2009-07-29 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst
On Wed, July 29, 2009 14:24, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote: > If you don't like that, don't shoot the messenger, because they > might get sick of being shooten at at every occasion; thanks. I think an important critic in this thread is the way the message was brought: DD's like myself are learni