Early morning, Wednesday, November 19, the results of the GR on init
system coupling will be announced.
No result will make everyone happy. In fact, that morning, some of our
developers, users and contributors will be really unhappy.
I would be dishonest if I said I didn't hope to be happy and r
Apologies for the debian-boston-soc mailing list going away. I changed
infrastructure a couple of years ago and it made it a bit more difficult
to host mailing lists.
I'd be happy if someone else wanted to run a Debian Boston mailing list,
and I'd be willing to make the effort to bring the list ba
I've tried to slow down my rate of posting both because I've said what
it was useful for me to say and because after the most recent IETF
meeting I've been taking a vacation in Hawaii, meditating floating in
the ocean and living in the moment laughing with joy as the salt spray
soaks my body.
I'l
> "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
Russ> I have a different perspective.
Russ> I think we just had a GR in which the Debian developer
Russ> community said that we, as a community, would like to work
Russ> through all of the issues around init systems together, as a
Russ> co
> "Tollef" == Tollef Fog Heen writes:
Tollef> As for Zack's point about this process being underway
Tollef> already: yes, that's the point. If we want to change things
Tollef> about the TC, let's put out a comprehensive proposal instead
Tollef> of changing one thing now and a
> "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
Russ> There's another alternative to using the CTTE, and my
Russ> understanding is that this was generally the method used prior
Russ> to the existence of the CTTE, but I'm not sure it's really any
Russ> better.
Russ> There are specific te
One huge advantage of teaching our package management tools to
understand alternate package technologies and convert on the fly is that
we can use the mirror networks of the language-specific packages.
Unfortunately, we're fairly picky about licensing issues and legal
distributability of packages.
> "Nikolaus" == Nikolaus Rath writes:
Nikolaus> However, it seems to me that meeting someone in person
Nikolaus> isn't actually verifying the relevant identity here. My
Nikolaus> trust in a Debian developer is not based on him holding a
Nikolaus> particular legal name, it is
> "Dominik" == Dominik George writes:
Dominik> On 08.06.2015 20:46, Florian Weimer wrote:
>> Google services are quite popular among the FLOSS crowd at large.
>> You might not see many Gmail posters on Debian mailing lists, but
>> this is increasingly an anomaly.
Dominik>
> "Dominik" == Dominik George writes:
Dominik> b) BELIEF =
Dominik> If any Debian contributor BELIEVES that the use of Google,
Dominik> and the like, is a good thing, then the illness lies in the
Dominik> divergence between their contribution and their values, and
> "Zlatan" == Zlatan Todoric writes:
Zlatan> On the other hand - I do believe that Debian contributors
Zlatan> should uphold Social Contract and DFSG as much as possible
Zlatan> because if we don't push it forward and believe in it, then
Zlatan> no one else will.
I agree with
> "Bas" == Bas Wijnen writes:
Bas> The above has nothing to do with beliefs. Beliefs are about
Bas> people who believe that using non-free services is better for
Bas> some ethical reason. They will say that even if a free
Bas> alternative would be available, the non-free ser
If someone is interested in working on some documentation,
I found the pklocalauthority man page plus looking at the action files
in /usr/share/polkit-1 helpful.
the pklocalauthorityman page does actually have examples and I believe
combining that plus the action names from the action files would
Long term, how does this project relate to live-build.
Is live-build going away, or are there different use cases where you'd
want to use one vs the other?
--Sam
> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining writes:
>> only. It's scary to think that its intention is to also replace a
>> tool like bootstrap-vz that has been used for years, is currently
>> maintained and is pretty stable. Specially when not even
>> mentioning this to the Debian Cloud
As a member of the technical committee, I've grown increasingly alarmed
as I think about the impact of the issues that come to us.
Yes, we're giving answers. However, I think we are doing a lot of harm
to the members of our community in the process, and I would like to
explore whether we can do b
> "Ben" == Ben Hutchings writes:
>> And why would you refuse a way to submit donations that's
>> convenient for some donors?
Ben> [...]
Ben> Mozilla tried it and the result was a net negative:
Ben>
https://fundraising.mozilla.org/bitcoin-donations-to-mozilla-17-days-in/
> "Chris" == Chris Lamb writes:
Chris> However, I do not believe one needs standing to do so and
Chris> would highly encourage people to call out behaviour they feel
Chris> is unacceptable, whoever they are or whatever flags they have
Chris> in the Debian LDAP server.
Ch
> "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
Russ> Martin Steigerwald writes:
>> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:
>>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.
>> In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement.
>> If everyone has been heard, noticed, felt and valued, if
>>>>> "Don" == Don Armstrong writes:
Don> On Mon, 30 Oct 2017, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> 3) Similar to 2. I don't think you can take off any hats you do
>> have when sending such mails. If you have a role in our account,
>> antiha
>>>>> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes:
Ian> Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by
Ian> Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"):
>> I am discussing how we handle conflict because I hope we can do a
> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes:
Ian> Thanks for your mail. I have trimmed vigorously the parts I
Ian> agreed with :-).
Thanks again for your mail.
I also trim parts where I think we understand each other and seem to be
in general agreement.
I want to explicitly call out your analysis
> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes:
Steve> Hi Diane,
Steve> On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48:05AM -0700, Diane Trout wrote:
>> I only just subscribed and only have read some of the discussion
>> so this may be a bit off topic or already discussed.
>> But I was wondering if t
d more comprehensive statements.
In this message, Ian also outlined a list of factors that tend to be
critical to TC decisions.
[7]
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/23032.45880.193971.897...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
[8]
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/23035.8784.982211.812...@chiark.greene
I think if we can find a way to manage it technically, allowing people
to forward email would be a reasonable thing to do.
I've seen other organizations call the antiharassment team an ombudsman
team; perhaps ombudsteam might be more gender neutral though.
I support the idea of changing the name and support the idea of letting
the team decide on its name.
I think rather than creating rules about delegates needing to r
> "Thomas" == Thomas Goirand writes:
Thomas> On 07/02/2018 01:14 AM, Josip Rodin wrote:
>> The Debian social contract doesn't go into that much detail, to
>> explicitly require keeping bugs open because they exist in
>> practice -- but common sense and decades of precedent do.
> "Steve" == Steve McIntyre writes:
Steve> For those trying to undermine it with statements like "I'm
Steve> worried I'll be thrown out of Debian if I make a single
Steve> mistake", please give it a rest already. These are basic
Steve> principles on how we want all people to i
> "Scott" == Scott Kitterman writes:
Scott> On Monday, January 07, 2019 07:06:28 PM Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Miles Fidelman writes: > On the
>> other hand, the IETF seems to do just fine - with a much larger >
>> base of participants, and a lot more room for discussion and
I think that rather than writing down a procedure like this it would be
better to get some success cases of trying something along these lines.
So, for example, I'd recommend that you and people who have similar
views volunteer to be available as mediators.
Once people use your services, and you h
Might I suggest that Miles and the rest of us have had as much of a
meeting of minds as we can in the media of email and that this thread
has drifted into noise? In my oopinion continuing would do more harm
than good.
--Sam
While we're throwing around random wikipedia pages, I'd like to submit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
With respect, I don't think Daniel's comments are a constructive
addition to the discussion. Whether or not daniel was treated
reasonably, I think that he's reached a level of
bitterne
We seem to have reached the end of the nominations period with no Debian
developers stepping forward to nominate themselves. As has been
discussed, the nomination in
is not
valid because the person nominating themselves is not a developer.
In fairness, I'd recommend that the nominations period b
> "Jakob" == Jakob Leben writes:
Jakob>Well, there are use cases that are not so simple. For
Jakob> example: I might deploy Debian 9.1 on an embedded machine
Jakob> sold to a client on the other side of the world. I have a
Jakob> system for updating my own software which i
I always assumed debian member was a term that included developer and
maintainer.
I'm all for Debian member replacing developer, but if so, I'd like a
term that encompasses maintainer and developer.
Effective immediately, I resign from the Antiharassment team in order to
take on the role of Debian Project Leader. I think that there are a
couple of conflicts that make holding both roles problematic. The
biggest is time management. However, while the DPL and AH both have
roles in dispute re
Hi. During a discussion with DSA, we noticed that rtc.debian.org does
not have an active service team maintaining it.
In addition, the reciprocate package, on which it depends, was dropped
from buster.
I think the RC bugs in question have since been fixed but I didn't go
look at all the dependenc
Your thanks are most welcome.
Sam Hartman
Debian Project Leader
Hi folks. Some DPLs in the past have used the #debian-dpl channel on
OFTC. Chris didn't.
I'm trying to figure out whether I am going to use the channel, but for
now I'm hanging out there.
If you hang out there, I'm assuming you're willing to assist the DPL on
the channel trying to understand t
A recent conversation on IRC caused me to realize I should have pointed
out a couple of things. These are obvious to me but may not be obvious
to others.
IRC is not email. I may ignore IRC when busy. I do not have a
permanent IRC presence. I may lose messages in various ways, and my IRC
clien
Is the xmpp server part of rtc.debian.org or another service?
Hi.
If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that you
believe this project is more than one person can handle and you're
giving two examples:
1) You don't know how to interact with DSA
and 2) you don't understand the current setup.
I suspect you're right that this is more than on
Speaking as an individual, although some of the things that motivated me
to actually go ahead and ask this question knowing that it might spark
discussion were conversations I had as DPL.
Obviously this question is motivated by things that happened last year,
but I'm not asking about that situati
>>>>> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes:
Ian> Sam Hartman writes ("Question for Planet Admins: What Should I
Ian> do if another Developer Removes my Blog"):
>> Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they
>> have rem
> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Carter writes:
>> 2) Ask the planet admins to respond to the situation and either
>> help me understand the problem or add my blog back.
Jonathan> Option number two seems like the entirely logical and
Jonathan> reasonable approach. If it seems that yo
> "Benj" == Benj Mako Hill writes:
Benj> I'd be happy to document this on the Planet wiki page.
I agree with Joerg that I don't think we need a lot of new rules here.
I'll point out that the situation I asked about has never happened
(although one close to it in some ways did), and it f
> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining writes:
Norbert> On Tue, 21 May 2019, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> I think it's more open and equally clean for someone who's blog
>> has been non- consensually removed to be able to put it back
>> themselves immediately (if they think the removal
> "Jonas" == Jonas Smedegaard writes:
Jonas> I also run Asterisk at a few small networks, and experienced
Jonas> similar failure connecting with rtc.d.o in the past - but I
Jonas> didn't try very hard back then.
Jonas> I sincerely hope these renewed efforts can help improve
> "Mathias" == Mathias Behrle writes:
Mathias> * Karsten Merker: " Re: Question for Planet Admins: What
Mathias> Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog" (Sat, 25
Mathias> May 2019 17:49:13 +0200):
Mathias> Hi together,
Mathias> I am supporting wholeheartedly th
>>>>> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining writes:
Norbert> Hi Sam, surprising statements from you ...
Norbert> On Wed, 22 May 2019, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> The same is true of package maintainership though. We sometimes
>> do change the ma
[moving a discussion from -devel to -project where it belongs]
> "Mo" == Mo Zhou writes:
Mo> Hi,
Mo> On 2019-05-29 08:38, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>> Use the $300,000 on our bank accounts?
So, there were two $300k donations in the last year.
One of these was earmarked for a DSA
> "Holger" == Holger Levsen writes:
Moving this subthread to -project too.
Holger> But there's one significant difference between LTS and dunc
Holger> tank: dunc tank was ment as an initiative inside Debian,
Holger> while LTS is carefully set up on both sides, in- and outside
> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk writes:
I agree that's missing.
I don't think that is the important information needed to drive the
discussions I'm hoping someone will drive.
Instead I'm more interested in seeing discussions at a high level.
Talking about the issues involved in paying people to
> "Ondřej" == Ondřej Surý writes:
Ondřej>It might be worth looking on how other organizations in
Ondřej> our ballpark are doing stuff. f.e. IETF/ISOC is in similar
Ondřej> situation to Debian/SPI.
I'm no longer really involved in the IETF, but I was involved in the
IETF for
> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk writes:
>>
>> Talking about the issues involved in paying people to do work.
>> What the options are, collecting people's concerns etc.
>>
>> I actually think the first round of that can be done without
>> significant access to numbers.
> "Gunnar" == Gunnar Wolf writes:
Gunnar> I am aware your example is just an example - But don't you
Gunnar> think that following through with this would have a sad
Gunnar> effect on the www team: It would be equivalent to tell them,
Gunnar> "thanks for your work for so many y
Dear Debian:
I'm seeking feedback on your interactions with the antiharassment team.
Ultimately I'd like to learn how well they are meeting the needs of the
project in helping to keep our community welcoming and safe.
As discussed in my bits from the DPL, A group of us is meeting in late June
Paul, it's really cool to see that you are open to this.
I wonder whether it might be a good idea to write down which
infrastructure services people in the mentors community are most able to
help with. I don't want to discourage people from for example asking
dak questions, but it might be valuab
> "Chris" == Chris Lamb writes:
Chris> Personally, I have been over-indulgent in using such "devil's
Chris> advocate" positions in the past, but after some feedback I
Chris> realised that it did not have the intellectually stimulating
Chris> quality I was hoping for and merely
Hi.
An issue came up processing a debconf budget amendment.
Our community uses ledger a lot for dealing with financial issues.
Unfortunately, I find that its reports are not very accessible at least
by default.
The issue I'm most running into is that the reports use internal
indentation within a
> "Louis-Philippe" == Louis-Philippe Véronneau writes:
Louis-Philippe> Is that more accessible? From what I understand from
Louis-Philippe> your email, the beginning indentation isn't a
Louis-Philippe> problem. If it is, we can script something to get
Louis-Philippe> rid of it
>>>>> "Sune" == Sune Vuorela writes:
Sune> On 2019-06-10, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> Unfortunately, I find that its reports are not very accessible at
>> least by default. The issue I'm most running into is that the
>> reports u
Hi.
I've received a media query on this topic I am about to respond to.
I figure the project would not take it well to find out what we're going
to do from a news story. And obviously I don't know what we're going to
do, but I do think I know where we ended up here and what I'd be open to
helpin
It was pointed out to me that my mail could have been misread in a
number of ways. nothing in my message is meant to alter the delegations
currently in place. Rather, my desire is to further empower our
delegated teams.
If there are going to be any grants to fund work for some of our teams,
the
Hi.
Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has
already been covered.
This was discussed by the debian publicity team who is delegated to do
this sort of thing. In particular, they are charged by the project and
DPL to promote Debian consistent with its policies and their c
> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez writes:
Roberto> It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to
Roberto> conceal the action, nor do I mean to imply such. However,
Roberto> the start of the thread was practically invisible
Roberto> (especially for someone monitori
>> 3. what aspect of the political connotation of Pride Month you find
>> objectionable, if any.
>3. This is something I don't really think is on-topic on this list, or
>in Debian at large. However, since you asked, I especially find
Hi.
I think your first inclination was right. I don't think i
Speaking as an individual developer.
One of my coworkers, Matt Tennie, will be attending his first
Debconf this year. He has a lot of video production experience .
He's been asking me questions about Debian, and somewhere along the way
we realized it would be great to make available answers to
> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining writes:
Norbert> Hi Gerardo,
>> On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it
>> was a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as
>> meaning that there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was
>> ok.
> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk writes:
>> and so forth, since they're the experts on what they would find
>> the most meaningful within the Debian context.
Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
Adrian> dangerous.
Absolutely.
I think that each time we
> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle writes:
Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater
wrote:
>>
Eldon>
>> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
>> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
>> pridemeonth in mails
[listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment here]
The pride month discussion has gone beyond what's appropriate for
debian-project at this point and has served its purpose.
It's possible that small sub threads may have some value, but overall,
I think that the discussion ha
>>>>> "Alexander" == Alexander Wirt writes:
Alexander> On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Sam Hartman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> [listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment
>> here]
Alexander> I don't
>>>>> "Holger" == Holger Levsen writes:
Holger> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 02:07:37PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> But I don't want there to be a chilling effect out of fear.
Holger> yet today you asked this discussion to be stopped, even
> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez writes:
Roberto> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 10:18:18AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Jul 2019, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
Roberto> The point of Debian being a do-ocracy is not lost on me.
Roberto> In fact, when it comes to technical
blame, then
this is not an apology. Humiliation and denigration have no place in
Debian.
Sam Hartman
Debian Project Leader
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
e to thank everyone who gave
feedback.
I was amazed at how constructive the process was.
--Sam
Title: Antiharassment Feedbac (Public)
Antiharassment Feedbac (Public)
Sam Hartman
June 22, 2019
Nature of Feedback
Feedback from 17 sources
Respondents; reporters;former and curren
> "Andrej" == Andrej Shadura writes:
Andrej> Hi,
Andrej> On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 10:10, Sean Whitton
wrote:
>> Over the weekend, Ian Jackson and I met in Cambridge, U.K. to
>> work on the design and implementation of tools and processes
>> relating to git & Debian packagi
Hi. In this message I'm speaking as the DPL facilitating a discussion.
I'm trying to explain where I see the project consensus (or in this case
lack there of). That is I'm explaining what I'm hearing from the
project and trying to focus future discussion.
First, by this point, I have quite high
Neil has been talking about how much the Gnome community has gotten out
of discourse.
His experience has been positive enough that as an individual developer
I'd be interested in using a pilot.
I want to stress that I'm not volunteering to do the work of setting up
such a pilot.
I could imagine s
> "Christian" == Christian Kastner writes:
Christian> However, (this part is a setup for my next answer) for
Christian> any given body of people and one unspecific norm, it is
Christian> possible for two individuals of said body to arrive at
Christian> conflicting interpretati
> "Marc" == Marc Haber writes:
Marc> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:04:43PM +0200, Christian Kastner wrote:
>> Answering the second question first: my interpretation of
>> mediation in this context is a resolution process for the
>> aforementioned conflicting interpretations, wher
I'll say there is something really unfortunate with the
unattended-upgrades packagekit ecosystem.
I keep finding that unattended-upgrades takes up 100% of my CPU until
I kill it.
I have not had a chance to debug enough to submit a bug, but it is
infuriating.
--Sam
I had been hoping to start some discussions on these issues after
debconf.
I am not really interested in doing so against the backgdrop of a
potential GR happening at the same time.
Thomas, would you be willing to hold off on potential GR stuff until
after I see where we get with consensus?
F
Did anyone actually bother to click on the link?
How much of debian-private (from when to when) was leaked?
If no one even bothered to look, well, that's fine too.
[intentionally not signed because this is a comment-seeking draft]
Hi. As discussed in [1], I'm forming a delegation advisory group to
help me with upcoming delegations.
[1]:
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/tslftm5c1e7@suchdamage.org
This group will help me by being a group that I
> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Carter writes:
Jonathan> Just one thing that I am /slightly/ confused about (which
Jonathan> means that there might be someone else who is too). The
Jonathan> topic, and particularly "Delegation Advisory Group" gave
Jonathan> me the impression that thi
>>>>> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining writes:
Norbert> Hi Sam, I think this is a good idea, but ...
Norbert> On Wed, 28 Aug 2019, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> * Joerg Jaspert * Steve McIntyre
>> <93...@debian.org> * Theodore Y. Ts'
> "michael" == michael caron couturier writes:
michael> The app is unaccessible for blind users fix your mess
michael> before adding crap ... -- Michaël C. Couturier
I understand your frustration.
It's true that there's not an supported accessible installer that you
can run once yo
> "Adam" == Adam D Barratt writes:
I don't think it even means that.
> 8.2. Appointment
> The Delegates are appointed by the Project Leader and may be replaced
> by the Leader at the Leader's discretion. The Project Leader may not
> make the position as a Delegate conditional on par
> "Holger" == Holger Levsen writes:
Holger> Hi Sam, why exactly do you think a delegation is useful
Holger> and/or needed here?
Holger and I discussed that off-list.
As a result he made two proposals:
1) Avoid the word privy in the delegation text as that's confusing to a
non-native
I'm trying to move a thread from -devel.
Ian Jackson responded [1] to part of a consensus discussion on Git
recommendations. I had said that I think we recommend against the use
of non-free services like Github but do not forbid their use.
Ian disagreed with this recommendation.
I respon
> "MJ" == MJ Ray writes:
MJ> I have some sympathy with the "send a patch to bugs.debian.org"
MJ> view. Do any developers ignore those and tell people to join
MJ> github to use its private version of pull requests? I know I
MJ> have patches ignored in there but I don't remem
> "Bernd" == Bernd Zeimetz writes:
Bernd> On 7/23/19 7:31 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>> 1- Mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser, meaning we do mandate using
>> Git for packaging.
Bernd> why is that a reason for a GR? its a question for the policy
Bernd> editors.
So, I agree t
> "Scott" == Scott Kitterman writes:
>> For several of these recommendations if I cannot get consensus, I
>> will call for a GR myself.
Scott> What do you think is important enough in this area that you
Scott> would rather have people not contribute to Debian if they
Scot
> "Mo" == Mo Zhou writes:
Mo> As you said, recommendations are merely recommendations. Debian
Mo> developers customed to their own workflow may not necessarily
Mo> follow the recommendations. However, the recommendation makes a
Mo> difference for newbies or newcomers, if thei
I'm a bit concerned about your argumentation style in this thread. It
feels to me a lot like you're saying that people are wrong simply
because they are disagreeing with you. In future discussions, I'd
recommend finding a way of having the discussion that acknowledges
disagreement and is more foc
> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes:
Ian> Charles Plessy writes ("Re: Using Debian funds to support a gcc
Ian> development task"):
>> given the reminders that Debian refrains from paying developers
>> for their time, I wonder if it would still be possible to make a
>> small cont
> "Andreas" == Andreas Tille writes:
Andreas> Hi
Andreas> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 11:44:26AM +0200, John Paul Adrian
Glaubitz wrote:
>> So, would -project be willing to support our cause through Debian
>> funds?
Andreas> Besides other good reasons to say "no" to this que
TL;DR: Do we want BSP organizers to take on the responsibility of
batching together travel reimbursement requests.
HI. A while back, I suspended the automatic approval of reimbursements
for attending BSPs. You can still ask for approval for attending a
BSP, you can't just send me a reimburseme
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