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On Fri, Jan 17, 2003 at 05:11:32PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just because you are using a UTF-8 capable terminal does not
> mean you can actually see a UTF encoded string. ሰው እንደቤቱ እንጅ እንደ
> ጉረቤቱ አይተዳደርም።, though encoded in UTF, is hard for me to display. If
> you are ab
On Sat, 2003-01-18 at 03:38, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Actually, if we must take a stance, I would say that while
> unicode does remain the only sane choice in the future, at this
> point the only sane choice is pure ascii; for reasons that have come
> up often in this thread.
I think th
Colin Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, 2003-01-17 at 17:49, Manoj Srivastava wrote:>
>> perhaps we should stick to pure ascii file names, if we
>> must have policy take a stance about file names at all?
>
> First of all, I strongly believe policy should have a stance about file
> name
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hi,
>
> Just because you are using a UTF-8 capable terminal does not
> mean you can actually see a UTF encoded string. ሰው እንደቤቱ እንጅ እንደ
> ጉረቤቱ አይተዳደርም።, though encoded in UTF, is hard for me to display. If
> you are able to see this, would
On Fri, 2003-01-17 at 17:49, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Sorry for the late entry into the discussion. I am
> comfortable with making the changelog UTF-8 only, but file names in
> pure UTF-8 perhaps is premature. (मनोज्.conf, anyone?).
Please see my second proposal (the third in
Hi,
Just because you are using a UTF-8 capable terminal does not
mean you can actually see a UTF encoded string. ሰው እንደቤቱ እንጅ እንደ
ጉረቤቱ አይተዳደርም።, though encoded in UTF, is hard for me to display. If
you are able to see this, would you please share what fontset you
are using?
Hi,
Sorry for the late entry into the discussion. I am
comfortable with making the changelog UTF-8 only, but file names in
pure UTF-8 perhaps is premature. (मनोज्.conf, anyone?). Indeed,
until we have a wider deployment of a font that has a decent
coverage of UTF-8 glyphs (haw many of
On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 03:55, Denis Barbier wrote:
> Excerpt from http://www.openi18n.org/docs/html/LI18NUX-2000-amd4.htm
>
> portable filename character set
>
>The set of characters from which portable filenames are constructed.
Yes, I saw that. I should have been clearer: They are s
On Wed, Jan 15, 2003 at 09:34:00PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
[...]
> I am a bit wary about involving them; it doesn't seem to quite fit in
> with their charter. However, I just noticed the 'Open
> Internationalization Initiative', which is part of the same Free
> Standards Group umbrella organiz
On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 06:15, Colin Watson wrote:
> I think this ought to be a reminder that taking a Debian-specific
> approach to this and reckoning that we can probably "get a fair number
> of upstreams to go along with it" is a mistake. If there isn't a
> widely-accepted standard, we will just
>On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 21:50, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> And? A POSIX filename is not a string of characters, it's a string
>> of bytes. You have no technical need to differentiate between the
>> two.
>
>If you do any sort of character-oriented manipulation on those names,
>you will.
Like what
On Wed, Jan 15, 2003 at 01:17:51AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 21:50, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Are you volunteering to write patches for every program in Debian, and
> > maintain them (since the upstream author probably won't be interested
> > in this Debian-only scheme)
On Wed, Jan 15, 2003 at 04:41:57PM +0900, Junichi Uekawa wrote:
> > > Not all of the statements made in that thread are not quite true,
> > > and I seem to remember seeing some hacks done by Ukai-san on that
> > > respect, for UTF-8.
> >
> > Hmmm...could you elaborate?
>
> I think our man-db and
On Wed, Jan 15, 2003 at 12:28:43PM +0900, Junichi Uekawa wrote:
> > > But the current situation is *already* broken! For example, for a
> > > Chinese person, an ISO-8859-1 system simply cannot encode, nor display,
> > > their language. I am aware that for people entrenched in legacy
> > > charset
> > Not all of the statements made in that thread are not quite true,
> > and I seem to remember seeing some hacks done by Ukai-san on that
> > respect, for UTF-8.
>
> Hmmm...could you elaborate?
I think our man-db and groff have been hacked in two ways:
1) to special-case japanese locale (ja_J
On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 21:50, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And? A POSIX filename is not a string of characters, it's a string
> of bytes. You have no technical need to differentiate between the
> two.
If you do any sort of character-oriented manipulation on those names,
you will.
> Good. It remind
On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 22:28, Junichi Uekawa wrote:
> The point is, we have working "iconv", and
> changing changelog will work.
Yep, definitely.
> man may need some hacking or other, I am not sure.
I hear the other Colin is on the job :)
> Not all of the statements made in that thread are not
> > Sorry, we have to start somewhere. Unicode is the way of the future,
> > and if we wait until every vendor of some random terminal updates it
> > with support for UTF-8, we will never start.
>
> I don't disagree that we should move to Unicode. I disagree that such
> a move must inherently
> > But the current situation is *already* broken! For example, for a
> > Chinese person, an ISO-8859-1 system simply cannot encode, nor display,
> > their language. I am aware that for people entrenched in legacy
> > charsets like ISO-8859-1, the transition may introduce
> > incompatibilities.
>Moreover, say the system administrator does something like 'find
>/home'. The resulting stream will be a mixture of ISO-8859-X and BIG5,
>and impossible to reliably differentiate.
And? A POSIX filename is not a string of characters, it's a string
of bytes. You have no technical need to differ
>1) A multiuser machine, with users using different charsets.
> Who decides which one is "local"?
>
>2) The sysamin/user changes the charset, e.g. from iso-8859-1
> to iso-8859-15 to get the Euro character.
> How should the filenames stay in the local charset when
> this changes? Would the
On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 02:23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Not acceptable. Filenames are and must be in the locale charset.
> There is no other sane option [...]
Heh. I will quote from a previous message of mine about filenames in
the locale charset, which, since you joined the discussion later, y
Hello Lars,
On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 12:30:28PM +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> ti, 14-01-2003 kello 10:23, Jochen Voss kirjoitti:
> > On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 01:23:51AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > Not acceptable. Filenames are and must be in the locale charset. There is
> > > no other san
ti, 14-01-2003 kello 10:23, Jochen Voss kirjoitti:
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 01:23:51AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Not acceptable. Filenames are and must be in the locale charset. There is
> > no other sane option [...]
> No, this does not work, too. Imagine two scenarios:
3) Floppies, C
Hello,
On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 01:23:51AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Not acceptable. Filenames are and must be in the locale charset. There is
> no other sane option [...]
No, this does not work, too. Imagine two scenarios:
1) A multiuser machine, with users using different charsets.
W
>But what if the program *knows* the data is UTF-8 internally? Like all
>GNOME programs do, and my patch for dpkg tries to do?
Then it should be easy to convert it. You can't not convert and expect a
reasonable response - among other things, innocent UTF-8 characters can
include C1 bytes, and scr
On Sat, 2003-01-11 at 06:21, David Starner wrote:
> You can input any Unicode character you want, but you probably have
> to out of your way to input something outside your charset (i.e. probably
> not on your keyboard or standard IM.)
Ok, that is probably going to be true.
> If I receive a fil
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:30:09AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 03:07, Jakob Bohm wrote:
>
> > I agree, this is the only way to go. Naive, simple, classic
> > UNIX-style programming should continue to "just work",
>
> Naïve, simple, classic UNIX-style programs are ASCII-on
At 11:55 PM 1/9/2003 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
What do you expect GNOME programs to do? Since they fully support
UTF-8, you can input any Unicode character you want. Also, a program
like Evolution may receive a file in mail whose name uses Unicode
characters. And a lot of locale charsets (li
On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 23:05, David Starner wrote:
> Not anything written up that I know of. Debian-i18n has a large cross
> membership, which was part of the reason this should be on debian-i18n.
Ok, if people want to move this discussion that's fine by me.
> >Are you saying that programs should
At 10:29 PM 1/9/2003 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
Right. Did the people on that list come up with any general plan for
how GNU/Linux vendors should transition?
Not anything written up that I know of. Debian-i18n has a large cross
membership, which was part of the reason this should be on debian
On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 20:57, David Starner wrote:
> A Posix filename is a null terminated byte string (sans '/'). Any
> widescale conversion is going to cause aliasing issues and other
> bugs, whether or not we stay Posix compatible.
> Just as important, conversion is not an issue for debian-pol
>I agree that it would be a good idea to store filenames as UTF-8
>in the filesystem. But I (being a part of "everyone") do not
>agree, that we should even try to switch every terminal in the
>world to UTF-8. We do need conversion of file names somewhere
>between the filesystem level and output.
On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 13:28, Jochen Voss wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:00:19AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> > Seriously, I didn't mean it that way; I just meant that I think everyone
> > has generally accepted that UTF-8 is the way of the future; we're just
> > debating when, whe
Hello,
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:00:19AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> Seriously, I didn't mean it that way; I just meant that I think everyone
> has generally accepted that UTF-8 is the way of the future; we're just
> debating when, where, and how.
I want to challenge the "everyone" in your sent
At 05:03 PM 1/8/2003 -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
Yes, there are UTF-8 versions available. Does everyone have them? Do we
enable them by default?
Everyone who has the most recent version. They're enabled by default if you're
running a UTF-8 locale, like they should be.
Do all other vendors sh
On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 18:03, John Goerzen wrote:
> Colin was advocating what amounted to exactly that. He was advocating
> removing all support for non-UTF8 terminals.
Um, woah there. The key word is *eventually*. Again: the only "must"
my present policy proposal introduces is for filenames in
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 02:54:43PM -0800, David Starner wrote:
> At 02:32 PM 1/8/2003 -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> >It's not just physical terminals we're talking about here. We're talking
> >about the vast majority of the state of the art terminal emulators *today*.
>
> I'd have a hard time des
At 02:32 PM 1/8/2003 -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
>It's not just physical terminals we're talking about here. We're talking
>about the vast majority of the state of the art terminal emulators *today*.
I'd have a hard time describing a terminal emulator that doesn't support
UTF-8 as "start of the a
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 03:50:45PM -0800, David Starner wrote:
> If you're using a terminal that can't support UTF-8, you always have the
> option of running
> something like GNU screen to translate the system charset to the terminal
> charset.
> It seems more important to get a systemwide encodi
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:30:09AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> > I like
> > the idea that I can download any old program written in a past
> > decade and just type make.
>
> Yay for broken software.
Unicode did not exist until fairly recently. Lots of useful software was
written prior to its i
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 10:23:14AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 04:29, Denis Barbier wrote:
>
> Uploading packages with UTF-8 control fields is not ok. It will simply
> put, not work for anyone who's not using a UTF-8 terminal, which is
> unfortunately probably most of our
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:10:36AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 18:50, David Starner wrote:
> > If you're using a terminal that can't support UTF-8, you always have the
> > option of running
> > something like GNU screen to translate the system charset to the terminal
> > c
On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 03:07, Jakob Bohm wrote:
> I agree, this is the only way to go. Naive, simple, classic
> UNIX-style programming should continue to "just work",
Naïve, simple, classic UNIX-style programs are ASCII-only. Then someone
got the idea to bolt this huge "locale" kludge on top of
At 01:10 AM 1/8/2003 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
>That is interesting advice. I am not sure I understand exactly how it
>would work though. Would you just tell screen that all input is in
>UTF-8? It seems like this would not be true if the user has legacy
>filenames, and they do something simple
On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 16:15, Jochen Voss wrote:
> Hello Colin,
>
> On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 09:50:26PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> > In summary, UTF-8 is the *only* sane character set to use for
> > filenames.
> At least I agree to this :-)
Cool.
> I think that we need filename conversion betwe
On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 11:58, Denis Barbier wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 10:23:14AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> [...]
> > It looks to me like at this point almost everyone agrees with the
> > content of my proposal in #99933, and we are discussing implementation
> > details. Agreed?
>
> No.
On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 18:50, David Starner wrote:
> If you're using a terminal that can't support UTF-8, you always have the
> option of running
> something like GNU screen to translate the system charset to the terminal
> charset.
> It seems more important to get a systemwide encoding working, t
On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 15:10, John Goerzen wrote:
> Colin Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 13:50, John Goerzen wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, we have to start somewhere. Unicode is the way of the future,
> > and if we wait until every vendor of some random terminal updates it
If you're using a terminal that can't support UTF-8, you always have the
option of running
something like GNU screen to translate the system charset to the terminal
charset.
It seems more important to get a systemwide encoding working, then worry
about the
minority who use physical terminals.
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 01:31:57PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 10:22, John Goerzen wrote:
>
> > Then your solution is broken. Seriously, this would be a huge problem
> > for many people.
>
> But the current situation is *already* broken! For example, for a
> Chinese pers
Colin Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 13:50, John Goerzen wrote:
>
> Sorry, we have to start somewhere. Unicode is the way of the future,
> and if we wait until every vendor of some random terminal updates it
> with support for UTF-8, we will never start.
I don't di
On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 14:22, Jochen Voss wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 10:23:14AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> > It looks to me like at this point almost everyone agrees with the
> > content of my proposal in #99933, and we are discussing implementation
> > details. Agreed?
>
> I
On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 13:50, John Goerzen wrote:
> I don't disagree. I'm saying that your solution is worse than the problem.
Sorry, we have to start somewhere. Unicode is the way of the future,
and if we wait until every vendor of some random terminal updates it
with support for UTF-8, we will
Hello,
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 10:23:14AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> It looks to me like at this point almost everyone agrees with the
> content of my proposal in #99933, and we are discussing implementation
> details. Agreed?
I do STRONGLY DISAGREE with
... Programs included in Debian
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 05:58:31PM +0100, Denis Barbier wrote:
> I was unclear, and only speaking about files shipped by Debian packages
> which contain non-ASCII characters without specifying their encoding.
> Users can do whatever they want with their data.
> I have almost txt, man and info pages
Colin Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Then your solution is broken. Seriously, this would be a huge problem
>> for many people.
>
> But the current situation is *already* broken! For example, for a
I don't disagree. I'm saying that your solution is worse than the problem.
> Chinese per
On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 10:22, John Goerzen wrote:
> Then your solution is broken. Seriously, this would be a huge problem
> for many people.
But the current situation is *already* broken! For example, for a
Chinese person, an ISO-8859-1 system simply cannot encode, nor display,
their language.
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 10:23:14AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
[...]
> It looks to me like at this point almost everyone agrees with the
> content of my proposal in #99933, and we are discussing implementation
> details. Agreed?
No. We agree that UTF-8 support must be dramatically improved, but
On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 04:29, Denis Barbier wrote:
> > but unless someone starts actually _using_ UTF-8, we would never know
> > which tools are broken and which are not (I already found one bug
> > in handling of UTF-8 GPG alias - I'll file the bugreport after some more
> > testing).
Testing our
Colin Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> I think that this would be a really bad idea, because it would be a to
>> severe restriction on the set of supported terminal types. Think of
>> remote logins from non-Debian machines: we cannot control the program
>> at the other end of the line. And
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 10:29:33AM +0100, Denis Barbier wrote:
[...]
> A similar approach could be considered for deb control files, a new
> mandatory Encoding field must be added to debian/control (and automatically
> put in other files when needed), which tells encoding used by all control
> file
On Jan 06, Jochen Voss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Because a lot of programs is affected, it would gain us much, if we
>could move this as deep as into libc or even into the kernel. I
>remember there are some questions about character sets in the kernel
>configuration. Are there file-systems
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 09:29:44AM +0100, Radovan Garabik wrote:
[...]
> > > > #99933 goes a lot farther than #174982. First of all, we can't even
> > > > suggest that people use UTF-8 in package control fields until all our
> > > > tools support it. Right now it is just plain broken to put anyth
Hello everybody,
On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 10:15:24PM +0100, Jochen Voss wrote:
> Hello Colin,
>
> On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 09:50:26PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> > In summary, UTF-8 is the *only* sane character set to use for
> > filenames.
> At least I agree to this :-)
>
> I think that we need
On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 01:24:26PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 11:45, Radovan Garabik wrote:
>
> > > #99933 goes a lot farther than #174982. First of all, we can't even
> > > suggest that people use UTF-8 in package control fields until all our
> > > tools support it. Rig
[ CC's trimmed, since mail to the bug will reach -policy ]
On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 16:07, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> Fixing progams that handle terminal input is a different matter IMHO, it's
> something that should be decided on a more case by case basis, and alot of
> cases might be effortless han
On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 16:01, Jochen Voss wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 12:21:27AM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> > After we have a "sufficient" number of programs supporting UTF-8
> > natively in this way, we change the policy on filenames to a "must",
> > drop support for legacy terminals and e
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