On Sunday, July 17, 2011 01:06:55 AM Robert Millan wrote:
Hi,
> This one affects only 22 packages:
>
> argyll cdparanoia checkinstall cyrus-imapd-2.2 cyrus-imapd-2.4
> dvd+rw-tools freeglut icecc k3b k8temp kolab-cyrus-imapd libburn
> libcdio libgtop2 libisoburn libsysactivity mtx oss-libsalsa q
Hi,
make 3.82 will require some transitions due to backward
incompatibility on GNU-make-specific features. Some bug reports have
already occurred for build issues with make 3.82, such as
http://bugs.debian.org/603759 . Since there are known backward
incompatibilities, make has been up
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 06:26:34PM +0200, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> Yes, and that's exactly what I find worrying about Lennart's attitude:
> he presumes to impose his policy on you -- you must use Linux, you must
> use a recent kernel with cgroups enabled, you're not supposed to use
> shell scrip
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 08:12:04AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Developing for Linux-only is fine, but Lennart has explicitly said that
> he wouldn’t remotely consider accepting portability patches, which goes
> further than any other piece of free software I had to deal with.
Oh. That's wors
Le lundi 18 juillet 2011 à 10:35 +0100, Jon Dowland a écrit :
> I've just written pretty much the opposite in my last message to the thread,
> however: it's my opinion that supporting kfreebsd et al should be done with
> the
> minimum impact on the Linux Debian distribution. So, pre-supposing s
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 at 10:30:15 +0100, Jon Dowland wrote:
> I don't suppose it would be worth maintaining a patch-set in Debian to support
> other OSs: In a hypothetical future where systemd was the default init system
> for Debian, it's probably less work to support multiple init systems and let
>
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:35:30AM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 08:12:04AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > We need one and only one init system in Debian. (Those considering
> > maintaining several init systems in parallel do not see how stupid,
> > bloated and error-prone
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Amaya Rodrigo Sastre
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Current arpwatch maintainer will be in the Uploaders field as per
http://lists.debian.org/debian-qa/2007/09/msg00037.html together with Anibal.
Both are Cc:ed on this ITP.
* Package name
Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
> 1. carry portability patches against systemd locally
> 2. support multiple init systems
> 3. drop kfreebsd (and HURD and others)
3 basically means dropping "Universal" from Debian, and replace it with
"Linux".
Samuel
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On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 12:13:02PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
> > 3. drop kfreebsd (and HURD and others)
>
> 3 basically means dropping "Universal" from Debian, and replace it with
> "Linux".
I seem to recall "Universal" existing long
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Hash: SHA1
On 18/07/11 12:13, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
>> 1. carry portability patches against systemd locally
>> 2. support multiple init systems
>> 3. drop kfreebsd (and HURD and others)
>
> 3 basically
Federico Di Gregorio writes:
> On 18/07/11 12:13, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>> Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
>>> 1. carry portability patches against systemd locally
>>> 2. support multiple init systems
>>> 3. drop kfreebsd (and HURD and others)
>>
>> 3 basically means d
> I think only supporting Linux is entirely his perogative: It's his
> project, his time and he can support what he wants.
Hmm. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that he's pushing
systemd as the standard init, not just as his hobby project. Josselin
may have more information.
-- Ju
> start-stop-daemon (and/or a new C helper that is run like s-s-d and
> does some of the same things as systemd)
Another architecture would be a daemon that is run from inittab, but
yes, your have a point there.
-- Juliusz
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w
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Gergely Nagy wrote:
> Federico Di Gregorio writes:
>
>> On 18/07/11 12:13, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>>> Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
1. carry portability patches against systemd locally
2. support multiple init systems
3.
>> What if next year $upstream_of_an_important_package decides that he only
>> cares about amd64 and arm? The rest of the world is obsolete anyway...
>
> What about also embeded marked ? Projection says what consumer will
> use more embeded software than desktop in the next years.
> Systemd seems
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 at 12:34:52 +0200, Federico Di Gregorio wrote:
> Wasn't "universal" as in "runs everywhere" (i.e., on a lot of archs) vs
> as "runs everything" (when a Debian GNU/WinNT?).
I've always understood "the universal OS" to mean "all-purpose" and/or
"for everyone". There's currently n
]] Gergely Nagy
| Federico Di Gregorio writes:
|
| > On 18/07/11 12:13, Samuel Thibault wrote:
| >> Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
| >>> 1. carry portability patches against systemd locally
| >>> 2. support multiple init systems
| >>> 3. drop kfreebsd (and HURD and ot
Tollef Fog Heen, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 13:54:45 +0200, a écrit :
> | Federico Di Gregorio writes:
> |
> | > On 18/07/11 12:13, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> | >> Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
> | >>> 1. carry portability patches against systemd locally
> | >>> 2. support multi
Tollef Fog Heen writes:
> | The main issue I have with dropping kFreeBSD & HURD would be (apart from
> | losing two platforms I use - even if for fun only; I don't want to use a
> | distribution that doesn't allow me to have as much fun as I do now) that
> | it leads down the path of dropping wha
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Gergely Nagy wrote:
>>> What if next year $upstream_of_an_important_package decides that he only
>>> cares about amd64 and arm? The rest of the world is obsolete anyway...
>>
>> What about also embeded marked ? Projection says what consumer will
>> use more embeded
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Hash: SHA1
On 18/07/11 13:15, Gergely Nagy wrote:
> Federico Di Gregorio writes:
>
>> > On 18/07/11 12:13, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>>> >> Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
>>> 1. carry portability patches against systemd locally
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 1:04 AM, Peter Samuelson wrote:
> - Treat the file as though it were shipped in the package directly.
> This means it is removed on package upgrade, as well as on package
> removal. This is very straightforward (append the filename to
> /var/lib/dpkg/info/{foo}.list), b
> It's actually lighter than sysvinit, from what I've seen so far,
$ size /sbin/init /bin/systemd
textdata bss dec hex filename
300401320 612 319727ce4 /sbin/init
79369167482188 802627 c3f43 /bin/systemd
-- Juliusz
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On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:54:45 +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
Just for the record: Hurd's no longer in unstable and hasn't been for
a
while.
Hurd very much is still in unstable - hppa was the h.{3} architecture
which we dropped.
Regards,
Adam
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Manoj Srivastava writes ("A new version of make-dfsg has been uploaded to
experimental, please test"):
> make 3.82 will require some transitions due to backward
> incompatibility on GNU-make-specific features. Some bug reports have
> already occurred for build issues with make 3.82, suc
I wrote:
> Anyway, can you please post the incompatibility list here, if it's not
> too long ?
Never mind, fetched it myself.
Ian.
make-dfsg (3.82-1) experimental; urgency=low
* New upstream release. A complete list of bugs fixed in this version is
available here:
http://sv.gnu.org/bugs
Juliusz Chroboczek, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 14:03:19 +0200, a écrit :
> > It's actually lighter than sysvinit, from what I've seen so far,
>
> $ size /sbin/init /bin/systemd
>textdata bss dec hex filename
> 300401320 612 319727ce4 /sbin/init
> 7936916748218
]] Samuel Thibault
| Just for the record: Hurd is still in unstable and has been there for a
| while, and is considered as a candidate for wheezy.
Oh, indeed, it's just so far behind I didn't see it. Mea culpa.
--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends ar
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Juliusz Chroboczek, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 14:03:19 +0200, a écrit :
>> > It's actually lighter than sysvinit, from what I've seen so far,
>>
>> $ size /sbin/init /bin/systemd
>> text data bss dec hex filename
>> 30040 13
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Gergely Nagy wrote:
> The main issue I have with dropping kFreeBSD & HURD would be (apart from
> losing two platforms I use - even if for fun only; I don't want to use a
> distribution that doesn't allow me to have as much fun as I do now) that
> it leads down the path of drop
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Gergely Nagy wrote:
[...]
> (Personally, I like the patch systemd path best, and time and skill
> permitting, I'd be happy to help, if so need be.)
While that may sound attractive at first, I don't think it's
technically possible at all at the moment. It's not a s
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote:
> Yes but 793691kb of unkillable even by -9 signal is not really nice.
root 1 0.0 1.0 4348 2844 ?Ss May26 0:56 /bin/systemd
--log-level info --log-target syslog-or-kmsg --system --dump-core --show-
status=1 --sysv-console=1 -
2011/7/18 Tollef Fog Heen :
> | The main issue I have with dropping kFreeBSD & HURD would be (apart from
> | losing two platforms I use - even if for fun only; I don't want to use a
> | distribution that doesn't allow me to have as much fun as I do now) that
> | it leads down the path of dropping w
> It's not a simple portability problem, systemd relies on very complex
> Linux-specific stuff.
Well, having looked at the code, yes and no.
Yes, because systemd recodes the whole startup process in C.
Translating a lot of distritibution-specific shell code into C is not
going to be portable:
On 2011-07-18, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>> Just for the record: Hurd's no longer in unstable and hasn't been for a
>> while.
> Just for the record: Hurd is still in unstable and has been there for a
> while, and is considered as a candidate for wheezy.
Just for the record: Hurd is not yet considere
Hi!
I spoke with Lennart Poettering about this thread on IRC, and he asked me
to forward some clarifications about systemd to this list:
>><<
i found while reading through that thread
a) the main memory usage by systemd is actually the selinux policy we
load in to memory so that we can tag socke
Matthias Klumpp, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 16:03:41 +0200, a écrit :
> though if you then subtract the memory for inetd and so on, it will
> probably comapre not too bad.
Does systemd really intend to replace inetd too, including things like
internal echo server etc.?
Samuel
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On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Russell Coker wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote:
>> Yes but 793691kb of unkillable even by -9 signal is not really nice.
>
> root 1 0.0 1.0 4348 2844 ? Ss May26 0:56 /bin/systemd
> --log-level info --log-target syslog-or
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 04:03:41PM +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
> c) the big problem for them about portability is not so much that i won't
> accept the patches. it's primarily that porting it to non-linux is
> practically impossible. about every line of it is non-portable code
> i.e. we alre
]] Robert Millan
| 2011/7/18 Tollef Fog Heen :
| > | The main issue I have with dropping kFreeBSD & HURD would be (apart from
| > | losing two platforms I use - even if for fun only; I don't want to use a
| > | distribution that doesn't allow me to have as much fun as I do now) that
| > | it lead
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
>> It's not a simple portability problem, systemd relies on very complex
>> Linux-specific stuff.
>
> Well, having looked at the code, yes and no.
>
> Yes, because systemd recodes the whole startup process in C.
> Translating a lot of dist
On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 11:34 +0100, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 12:13:02PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Jon Dowland, le Mon 18 Jul 2011 10:35:30 +0100, a écrit :
> > > 3. drop kfreebsd (and HURD and others)
> >
> > 3 basically means dropping "Universal" from Debian, and replac
On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
> I spoke with Lennart Poettering about this thread on IRC, and he asked me
>
> to forward some clarifications about systemd to this list:
> >><<
>
> i found while reading through that thread
>
> a) the main memory usage by systemd is actually the se
Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Developing for Linux-only is fine, but Lennart has explicitly said that
> he wouldn’t remotely consider accepting portability patches, which goes
> further than any other piece of free software I had to deal with.
To the contrary, it's quite similar to OpenBSD's handling
On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote:
> > The above is from the ps output of one of my i386 servers running
> > Squeeze. It appears that systemd has allocated an extra 2324K of RAM
> > and has an extra 2712K resident. Given that it's difficult to buy a
> > phone with less than 256M of RA
On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 14:19 +0200, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 1:04 AM, Peter Samuelson wrote:
>
> > - Treat the file as though it were shipped in the package directly.
> > This means it is removed on package upgrade, as well as on package
> > removal. This is very straightforwar
]] Russell Coker
| On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote:
| > > The above is from the ps output of one of my i386 servers running
| > > Squeeze. It appears that systemd has allocated an extra 2324K of RAM
| > > and has an extra 2712K resident. Given that it's difficult to buy a
| > > ph
Simon McVittie wrote:
> The point at which kFreeBSD or Hurd might harm Debian's universality is the
> point at which supporting them causes problems for the rest of the project.
That is the crux of the issue. I think that if we find ourselves being
held back by needing to support kfreebsd or the h
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Roger Leigh wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 04:03:41PM +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
>> c) the big problem for them about portability is not so much that i won't
>> accept the patches. it's primarily that porting it to non-linux is
>> practically impossible. abou
Simon McVittie writes:
> Is Linux suitable for all purposes for which an OS is needed? I think
> that's an open question. I'm not at all convinced that the ability to
> use kFreeBSD or Hurd makes Debian any more universal (in terms of people
> who can use it, or things you can use it for) than it
]] Roger Leigh
| Seriously? It's just a poll interface. How hard could it /possibly/
| be to fall back to using plain poll(2) in the mainloop?
poll(2) does not give you edge triggers, something systemd uses, so
while you can emulate this in your own code, it does make life more
complex.
Chee
Jon Dowland schrieb:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 08:12:04AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
>> Developing for Linux-only is fine, but Lennart has explicitly said that
>> he wouldn’t remotely consider accepting portability patches, which goes
>> further than any other piece of free software I had to d
Moritz Mühlenhoff writes:
> There're other blockers beside systemd to KFreeBSD being a full Debian
> port, e.g. the lack of KMS in Xorg. Even the guy who gave a talk von
> FreeBSD at last year's DebConf didn't use FreeBSD on his desktop.
It's one thing to not work well on desktops, though, and q
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort
* Package name: telepathy-farstream
Version : 0.1.1
Upstream Author : Olivier Crête
and others
* URL : http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/
* License : LGPL 2.1+
Programming Lang
Hi,
I understand that a DEP5 copyright file lists licenses and copyrights
for files in the debian source package directory, rather than for files
that are installed by the generated .deb.
Does that mean that files that are *generated* during execution of
debian/rules (e.g. rendered documentation)
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:54:53 -0400
Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> I understand that a DEP5 copyright file lists licenses and copyrights
> for files in the debian source package directory, rather than for files
> that are installed by the generated .deb.
>
> Does that mean that files that are *generated*
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 02:54:53PM -0400, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> I understand that a DEP5 copyright file lists licenses and copyrights
> for files in the debian source package directory, rather than for files
> that are installed by the generated .deb.
> Does that mean that files that are *generat
Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> No, because that's not the case of systemd's core. From what I've seen,
> most of the non-portable code in systemd's core is merely there for
> convenience. For example, the %m printf descriptor is used extensively,
> which is just shorthand for strerror. Similarly,
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 06:51:17PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> In fact, a minimal systemd system will win in almost very aspect against
> a remotely similarly powerful sysvinit system: you will need much fewer
> processes to boot. That means much shorter boot times.
This is, as far as I'm a
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 01:22:37PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 06:51:17PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > In fact, a minimal systemd system will win in almost very aspect against
> > a remotely similarly powerful sysvinit system: you will need much fewer
> > processe
Hi Jon,
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:30:15AM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote:
> Likewise, a recent kernel does not seem like a problem, and cgroups seems
> like a fairly core part of what systemd does.
There are use cases where requiring the latest kernel would be a problem.
For example, some virtual ho
Steve Langasek debian.org> writes:
> I'm sure that systemd does much better than a traditional sysvinit boot with
> /bin/bash and no dependency-based booting. But then, so does Debian's
> current boot system, and so does upstart; and neither of the latter two
> involve grandiose claims of a "shel
Uoti Urpala writes:
> Upstart is still used in Ubuntu but doesn't seem to have much future
> elsewhere. There's quite a lot of interest in systemd for Debian too,
> whereas I've seen few people express interest in Upstart.
Funny, my personal experience has been the exact opposite, including the
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:54:16AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Moritz Mühlenhoff writes:
>
> > There're other blockers beside systemd to KFreeBSD being a full Debian
> > port, e.g. the lack of KMS in Xorg. Even the guy who gave a talk von
> > FreeBSD at last year's DebConf didn't use FreeBSD on
Russ Allbery (18/07/2011):
> The upstart maintainers have expressed considerably more willingness
> to date to work with Debian on meeting our project's goals and
> incorporating those changes into the upstream release.
For reference, that would likely be:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/200
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:18:14PM +, Uoti Urpala wrote:
> Steve Langasek debian.org> writes:
> > I'm sure that systemd does much better than a traditional sysvinit boot with
> > /bin/bash and no dependency-based booting. But then, so does Debian's
> > current boot system, and so does upstart
Cyril Brulebois writes:
> Russ Allbery (18/07/2011):
>> The upstart maintainers have expressed considerably more willingness to
>> date to work with Debian on meeting our project's goals and
>> incorporating those changes into the upstream release.
> For reference, that would likely be:
> htt
>> I have not seen any serious attempt at measuring how big this impact
>> actually is
> I'd expect some important differences between shell script based init
> and systemd-type init
Yeah, that's everybody's intuition too. But Steve is right -- it would
be good to see some real benchmarks.
-- J
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 02:50:17PM -0500, Jonathan Nieder wrote:
> (By the way, I thought kfreebsd and hurd supported openat fine already.
> It's even part of POSIX. And %m is handled by glibc, not the kernel,
> so not a problem for our ports.)
I know the FreeBSD kernel has supported openat(2) si
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:14:39PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > I'm sure that systemd does much better than a traditional sysvinit boot with
> > /bin/bash and no dependency-based booting. But then, so does Debian's
> > current boot system, and so does upstart; and neither of the latter two
> > in
Russ Allbery debian.org> writes:
> Uoti Urpala pp1.inet.fi> writes:
>
> > Upstart is still used in Ubuntu but doesn't seem to have much future
> > elsewhere. There's quite a lot of interest in systemd for Debian too,
> > whereas I've seen few people express interest in Upstart.
>
> Funny, my p
Uoti Urpala writes:
> I think the important question is whether portability to other kernels
> is or should be a "project's goal", and how much else you're willing to
> lose for the sake of that goal.
I believe that it should be, and I'm willing to lose systemd for that
goal, although hopefully
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:05:56PM +, Uoti Urpala wrote:
> I think the important question is whether portability to other kernels
> is or should be a "project's goal", and how much else you're willing
> to lose for the sake of that goal. I know I would personally be a lot
> happier with a Debia
Steve Langasek debian.org> writes:
> > Tradeoff? What tradeoff?
>
> The tradeoff of hard-coding policy into C code in exchange for faster boot.
What's actually hard-coded so hard that it would have negative effects? What do
you actually *lose* here? The systemd model prefers to avoid shell scrip
Steve Langasek writes:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 02:54:53PM -0400, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
>> I understand that a DEP5 copyright file lists licenses and copyrights
>> for files in the debian source package directory, rather than for files
>> that are installed by the generated .deb.
>
>> Does that me
Neil Williams writes:
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:54:53 -0400
> Nikolaus Rath wrote:
>
>> I understand that a DEP5 copyright file lists licenses and copyrights
>> for files in the debian source package directory, rather than for files
>> that are installed by the generated .deb.
>>
>> Does that mea
Robert Millan wrote:
> Title and template description (below) is self-explanatory. 156
> packages are affected (list is attached).
>
> Package: %package%
> Severity: wishlist
> User: debian-...@lists.debian.org
> Usertags: kfreebsd
>
> The debian/control file in %package% uses a negated list of
]] "brian m. carlson"
Hi,
| Also, I've installed systemd on my laptop and it logs almost nothing
| to the console ("verbose" on the kernel command line does not help).
try doing systemd.log_level=debug as documented in the man page?
cheers,
--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's jus
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:54:14 -0400
Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> Neil Williams writes:
> > On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:54:53 -0400
> > Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> >
> >> I understand that a DEP5 copyright file lists licenses and copyrights
> >> for files in the debian source package directory, rather than for f
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:23:01 -0400
Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> > I don't personally think it's interesting or relevant to record in
> > debian/copyright the license of generated files, and there is certainly
> > nothing in Policy that requires you to do this. Why do you ask?
>
>
> My sponsor reques
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 04:03:41PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:14:39PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > > I'm sure that systemd does much better than a traditional sysvinit boot
> > > with
> > > /bin/bash and no dependency-based booting. But then, so does Debian's
> > >
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