d
painting, I think we've made some really good progress along these lines.
Standardisation is a necessarily formal process.
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being made without any discussion, and the document was
getting more and more confused.
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On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 06:40:46PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I think you have to go back most of the way to Sam's original proposal.
Is there any reason a Comment field wouldn't suffice?
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On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 01:41:26PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Noah Slater writes:
>
> > Is there some particular thing you think I want that makes things hard
> > for you?
>
> Well, you could restore the feature that was present in earlier versions
> of the draft
.
Is there some particular thing you think I want that makes things hard for you?
Ideally, we can work out a format the maximises the benefit for the everyone.
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with a subje
inion, there is value in standardising it.
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for how
this kind of thing might work. It's not an all or nothing situation.
* [INSERT OTHER COOL IDEAS HERE]
Even if these last points never happen, I will still use it because it's nice to
have a clean, consistent format for this file. It helps me when I am editing,
and it helps
icy, then, since evidently anything that
> > we don't have 100% compliance with is useless.
>
> Read the first line again.
The first line ignores every other reason given by the people wanting DEP 5.
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ime communication channels.
Actually, I would argue that this is the list's raison d'être.
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s can be confusing and
hard to read. The copyright proposal is simple, and provides consistency.
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nd where this attack came from.
No one is forcing you to concern yourself with the discussion around the format.
If the discussion bores you, delete the emails and stop worrying. If the final
format is useless to you, don't use it.
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On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 03:57:46PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Noah Slater writes:
> > Does Debian only care about listing copyright holders, as opposed to
> > reproducing legally meaningful copyright statements? If so, why not
> > just list names here, excluding the
DEP 5 to codify best practice in a format that is machine
parseable. If best practice means that we don't list copyright statements in a
legally meaningful way, then so be it. I was asking questions so that I could
understand this particular use case.
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ear ranges that are still legally relevant.
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Please tell me I am wrong and I may combine the stanzas in to one.
I'm not sure, but I think you can.
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On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:08:22AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> * List of space-separated pathnames indicating files that have the same
> licence and share copyright holders. Question marks indicate any character
> and asterisks indicate any string of characters.
+1
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On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 04:41:40PM +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
> So IMHO we must prefer understandable rules, like shell quotes, instead
> of new rules.
+1
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On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 11:14:04PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> space-and-commas: a, list of, files,that, contain, commas??or, spaces.
What if I have "commas, or" and "commas,,or" as two separate files?
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Heh, I think this demonstrates the one weakness of your argument. The kind of
person who would be reading the source format of these files is not your average
Windows user, nor your average Debian user.
One of the ultimate goal is to parse this file and present via a GUI.
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separated values because the "csv" module already handles this. Unfortunately,
if I specified " " as the separator, I would have to quote filenames instead of
escaping any spaces with a reverse solidus.
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ld do as well on elimination of cc's
> with a request (rather than a policy) and some pointers to configuration
> for common MUAs.
+1
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ery fast full-text search, automatic contact-list
> management, custom code insertion via a hook system, and more. If
> you're the type of person who treats email as an extension of your
> long-term memory, Sup is for you.
Hmm, this looks very interesting! Thanks for tip Ben.
ture of their MUAs. I don't actually have a
preference about using the Reply-To header, because it doesn't affect how I
interact with my MUA. What I object to is removing the Reply-To header and then
complaining about the consequences of that action.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:56:02AM +0100,
s getting through.
Software should adapt to human behaviour, not the other way around. Arguing that
people should adjust the way they use their software "because it makes more
sense that way" is a poor excuse for bad engineering. This is why we write
software, after all. To make things eas
ftware
interaction just because I am sending an email to a Debian list. That I continue
to make this mistake in a thread discussing the very same problem should be an
example of how problematic the whole thing is for me, and others like me.
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t, surely it's a net win if we respect
the intended semantics of Reply-To while simultaneously embracing the
Mail-Followup-To header.
I don't see how you could argue one, without the other. :)
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eir own clients. This was detailed earlier in this thread.
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hard to avoid CC'ing sender.
>
> It's quite easy: use the “reply to list” command when you want your
> reply to go to the list.
If you have one, and you remember to use it.
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, I think this is a great solution. All we need to do now is make sure
that every computer that participates on the Debian mailing lists is "upgraded"
to "respect" this policy.
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it's hardly
of any real value. Add a Reply-To and this problem goes away.
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and it allows
> to always use 'r' to reply to mail.
Hmm, interesting!
Unfortunately, I don't use folders so I don't think this will work for me.
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On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 04:09:19PM +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
> On 27 Apr 15:41, Noah Slater wrote:
> > You're arguing that a Reply-To header is "harmful" (not that I am
> > convinced) and
>
> Think of the occasions when you actually do want to do an offl
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 04:19:08PM +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote:
> Noah Slater wrote:
> > Either you avoid Reply-To because it is "harmful" and accept that you will
> > get
> > carbon copies from the commonly implemented group reply function of modern
>
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 02:06:01PM +0100, Mark Brown wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 03:03:10PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > On Montag, 27. April 2009, Noah Slater wrote:
> > > * The Debian lists do not have a Reply-To header,
>
> > does someone know why?
>
&g
and inevitably fails more often than not.
It doesn't fail because I'm stupid. I understand the theory behind it, and will
apologise when people politely remind me. Instead, it fails because I'm human,
lazy, and error prone. And it seems I'm not the only one.
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ually shuffle these addresses
around each time I want to send a follow up. Don't make me think!
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On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:27:03AM +, Philipp Kern wrote:
> On 2009-04-26, Noah Slater wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 06:03:07PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> >> FIRST: GO AWAY WITH YOUR STUPID CC'S. I OBVIOUSLY READ THE LIST.
> > Dude, chill out.
>
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 06:03:07PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> FIRST: GO AWAY WITH YOUR STUPID CC'S. I OBVIOUSLY READ THE LIST.
Dude, chill out.
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to explain how the source files have been prepared, exactly
like Charles is doing.
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gt; the copyright details of everyone who has ever submitted a patch so
> those details are completely impossible to add. The main purpose,
> AFAICT, is that the main contributors are correctly attributed, nothing
> more.
Agreed. This was the outcome of the previous copyright proposal discussi
for
me to appreciate that you might want to collapse any copyright statements down
into one File stanza for convenience.
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the source to
be pinned to the exact number in debian/changelog. When I am finished, I pass to
my sponsor, who will also want the exact version.
Only when I am initially starting a new version of the package will I request
the newest upstream, and as soon as I have done that, I will pin its version
ready to package that version, or because it
> is worse (FSVO worse) than the version specified in
> ‘debian/changelog’.
Yes, I more often find myself wanting to just get the current tarball.
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e, and run:
debian/rules get-orig-source
This works for all my packages, and is very handy for other people.
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On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 10:00:05AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 04 2009, Noah Slater wrote:
> > As a concrete benefit, my nightly cron to check uscan for all my
> > packages will be able to alert me about the ones pulled from
> > repository revisions, all I wo
s will
be able to alert me about the ones pulled from repository revisions, all I would
need to do is add a new "check-version" target.
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for the purposes of this file we only need two actions, right? Is the
current version the latest one we're interested in, and how can we fetch the
upstream source for the current version. If we let these two actions be scripted
through a standard interface, it should work with any repository.
--
h my!)
This could be possible with a set of configurable rules, akin to make.
get-recent:
svn co http://example.org/ $DIR
get-revision:
svn co -r $REV http://example.org/ $DIR
As long as you standardised the variables passed, and the location, should work.
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what constitutes the Debian way, but
considering we've let a proposal stew on a wiki for over a year, have taken some
discussion over to the mailing list and are now working on a DEP, I find it very
confusing that it should be considered that we are somehow abusing the process.
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Whoever is drafting the draft ought to be paying attention to
> the feedback being generated now, and create a better draft to start
> with.
Of course we are. :)
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with a
starting DEP 5 to gather feedback.
> Nice sound bite. But a spec or a standard's big value comes if
> it is fixed to be widely accepted, even if it means that some parts of
> the standard are "optional".
I hope that you will contribute your opinion when DEP 5 ha
The format proposal follows debian/control, and is quite simple in structure.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 09:08:54PM +, Noah Slater wrote:
> Am I the cat's mother? I'm not sure which is more rude, replying to emails
> faster than other people or criticising someone's behaviour in a public forum.
> If you think I reply to emails too fast, please
by
> many persons that don't want to spend an afternoon on this topic.
Am I the cat's mother? I'm not sure which is more rude, replying to emails
faster than other people or criticising someone's behaviour in a public forum.
If you think I reply to emails too fast, please do so in
e file, without having to worry about
inventing your own consistent formatting style.
Maybe that's just my mild OCD speaking though. Heh.
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there's any utility in duplicating the INN CONTRIBUTORS file in
> debian/copyright.
+1
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things in NEW review.
And once this is complete, the proposed copyright format would sit on top of
that nicely, assuming it is accepted by the community. I want to keep all policy
decisions away from the format proposal.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:29:37PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Noah Slater writes:
>
> > Having said that, I am thinking that fully documenting the license of
> > each file provides a handy way to ensure that developers are thoroughly
> > checking the package for licensi
about the additional work of noting each license down.
* I have made it perfectly clear that noting copyright holders was not
something I was talking about. Please do not mangle my position like this.
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t; just installing the NOTICE file is more obviously safe.
CouchDB should be doing a 0.9 this week, so I'll take a look. Thanks.
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ou suggest.
Only then would we put it forward for proper consideration.
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could improve the quality/utility of Debian as a whole, right?
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tself, not a
> solution.
I hardly see that me making a typo constitutes a failure of the format.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 03:47:39PM +0100, Romain Beauxis wrote:
> Le Sunday 22 March 2009 14:45:18 Noah Slater, vous avez écrit :
> > > Could you provide a use case or two to help clarify things? The main
> > > one I see is for an end user to look at a packages copyright file
ed sane by those maintainers who would most benefit
> from tools to support updates of debian/copyright or abandon the entire
> proposal as a good idea gone bad.
>
> Maybe someone else can look at it after Squeeze and raise version 2.0
> from the ashes.
It seems we are in violent agreem
ily copyright holders) in a machine readable
format would allow lintian checks to be developed, and maybe even automatic
license compatibility checks to be performed.
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that it must be a requirement.
There is no reason why you couldn't adopt this approach with the proposal.
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t your points, and I apologise for my sloppy wording.
Firmly in my mind is the cost/benefit of this extra effort. If we succeed in
integrating debian/copyright checks into lintian, or dpkg and it's front-ends,
it seems reasonable to imagine that this effort would be a good trade-off.
--
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cks in debian/copyright could (not would) go a long way towards
preventing DFSG problems in future uploads. Preventative measures seem a lot
better than reactionary ones in this regard.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 08:13:54PM +1300, Andrew McMillan wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-03-22 at 03:34 +0000, Noah Slater wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 08:07:23PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > > NEW rejections are even stronger than an RC bug. Apart from questions of
> >
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 04:31:58AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le dimanche 22 mars 2009 à 02:58 +0000, Noah Slater a écrit :
> > Again, while the documentation of individual licenses may not be policy, it
> > is
> > certainly policy for each package to be thoroughly
#x27;t mean to be excessively blunt, but I'm afraid that this simply
> isn't legally true.
For our purposes it is more than sufficient.
If a package lists a person as the copyright holder, we should accept it.
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n't think that possible DFSG problems are RC bugs? :/
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nt.
The legal details of copyright assignment are not important here. If the package
lists the copyright as belonging to the FSF, then it belongs to the FSF. If it
does not, then it does not. This is coming from a GNU maintainer who has been
through the process.
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y for each package to be thoroughly checked for licensing issues.
As this necessarily involves looking at each file, I don't see why it should be
considered that much extra effort documenting the process.
Ensuring DFSG compatibility is hardly administrative fluff.
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erves as documentation that the
package has been thoroughly checked for licensing issues. Because such a check
must involve looking at the headers of each file, and any AUTHORS or similar
file, there appears to be no reason why this should not be written down.
It also provides a nice su
holder in
> > debian/copyright, as seen in the source files and AUTHORS list or
> > equivalent (if any).
>
> Why do you think this work is needed? You must have had some
> rationale, since you made up this policy.
Again, to document that they have, in fact, done w
andate a machine readable format, in a similar vein as
debian/control, for whatever information you might have already been using.
This has clear advantages for being able to post-process, check, search, and
navigate copyright information using whatever tools the community decides would
be profitabl
why not be explicit about what is
required of a developer for this?
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because I had not checked.
When I found this, I sent the issue upstream:
http://tinyurl.com/ctargs
And I was fortunate that they did a massive overhaul and a re-release.
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with
artened by what
seemed to be a conflation of separate issues. I see the copyright proposal as a
format, not policy, document. If people want to formalise the granularity of our
copyright information, then so be it, but let's do that as a separate effort.
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th your current work, there should be no reason why you can't express what you
are already doing with the new copyright proposal.
Best,
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is stopping you from using the existing format to
say something along the lines of:
Files: *
Copyright: Copyright 2008, Damien Katz
Copyright 2008, Jan Lehnardt
Copyright 2008, Christopher Lenz
Copyright 2008, Noah Slater
License: Apache-2.0
On Debian systems the full text of the Ap
oal was to draw the focus away from the copyright proposal, which is only
codifying existing policy.
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of policy that
people don't wish to follow. All I am doing is suggesting that either we throw
out this argument, or fix the policy.
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On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 03:35:22PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Mar 2009, Noah Slater wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 02:41:31PM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > > > It behoves us as distributors to check, no matter how hard it is.
> > > >
> >
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 03:14:36PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le vendredi 20 mars 2009 à 14:02 +0000, Noah Slater a écrit :
> > If we were suggesting some totally arbitrary and time consuming task, then I
> > could understand your concerns. However, you should be checking each
e files for copyright holders.
You selectively chose one thing I had written, please don't do that.
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ackage
is large, does not seem to fit well with this goal. Hence my suggestion that if
a package you are maintaining seems like too much work, perhaps it would make
sense to collaboratively maintain it.
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ease the ask.
If we cannot do this simple thing, maybe we shouldn't be distributing software.
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
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opyright statement is a form of attribution, and is good manners.
I also see that the copyright file is primarily useful to end users who may want
a convenient way of browsing the copyright and licence information.
Best,
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
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u upload is DFSG
free, which means checking every single file. As you have to do this anyway, it
makes sense to record that information in debian/copyright. If you maintain a
very large package, then you should *expect* this to take a long time.
If that's too much effort for your, get
addition to
> webkit is licensed under BSD or LGPL because upstream does enforce that
> (except, obviously, embedded libraries, but we already have to check if
> any is added to avoid duplication and build against the system one
> whenever possible)
You might not care, but the package user
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 09:17:35PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > (As Noah Slater pointed out, it's hard to lose a directory on your
> > own machine...)
>
> you can loose access to your machine...
At which point you may as well call it someone else's mac
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 01:06:38PM +0100, Bjørn Mork wrote:
> Noah Slater writes:
> > On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 05:18:39PM -0800, Asheesh Laroia wrote:
> >> I think that the description explains that the purpose is to find hidden
> >> directories on web servers, presumab
On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 05:18:39PM -0800, Asheesh Laroia wrote:
> I think that the description explains that the purpose is to find hidden
> directories on web servers, presumably either your own or other people's.
Why would you need to find directories on your own server?
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Noah S
a bug. I'm surprised you sent that mail instead of filing a bug.
In defence of the OP, it hardly looks like a Debian-fixable problem.
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
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le.
>
> One of the interests of those test suits is to be executed automatically
> by buildd (on arch that you cannot easily test).
Aha, thanks for the clarification.
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wit
What about providing a test target in debian/rules and hooking into this
automatically with pdebuild. You should be able to run tests from within the
chroot without having to modify your debian/control file.
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into play when I'm being creative. I consider
development to be a creative activity.
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
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