Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> > > > > Since computers now run pretty much everything in the world, shouldn't > we be lobbying governments to provide funding for computer museums and > employ qualified curators? > > Just my .01 worth! > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > That's a fantastic idea.

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

I've been passively following this topic for some time now and haven't had anything to contribute, but now I do! Between this list and others, such as NetBSD, I have recently been able to bring up NetBSD on my ancient MicroVAX-II, which I originally bought as a used system back in 1992. My only m

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 3:19 AM Christian Groessler via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/20/21 5:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > That's why I am saying you literally need a family archivist who > > periodically converts content on old media to new media for.old family > > ph

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/20/21 5:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: That's why I am saying you literally need a family archivist who periodically converts content on old media to new media for.old family photos. That is the only practical way to preserve things or than if the original paper/photo/tape exists and

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

There is at least one major semiconductor company that has (had?) an internal group tasked with recovering (HW designs/software/firmware) IP off of "obsolete" media - reel tape, paper tape, floppy discs, other, and preserving for internal use. Was a substantial effort, meaning dedicated people, $$$

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> On Nov 24, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >> I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It >> was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface >> documentation and

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It > was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface > documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. > Some pallets of har

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections (pr

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

tis 2021-11-23 klockan 18:06 -0800 skrev s shumaker via cctalk: > In fact, it's standard language in most DOD contracts that ALL > materials > related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless > the > contractor receives specific permission from the gov't  to retain it > - > usu

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

In fact, it's standard language in most DOD contracts that ALL materials related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless the contractor receives specific permission from the gov't  to retain it - usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on contract.  When m

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> On Nov 23, 2021, at 2:22 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > On 11/23/21 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> doubt that a single line of that survives. >>> You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before >>> it s

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/23/21 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: doubt that a single line of that survives. You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before it stopped being used.  But that won't do you any good as even if you could submit a

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> On Nov 23, 2021, at 1:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > Just think of all of the stuff that hits the landfill from old timers > who have passed. The inheritors don't know what to do with the stuff > other than dispose of it. Or they might not know how to find devices that c

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: doubt that a single line of that survives. > > You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before > it stopped being used.  But that won't do you any good as > even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of > recovering it

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/22/21 8:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 11/22/21 2:59 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't save and just tossed it because "Why would I ever want this anymore?".  I *really* regret tossing all of the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM.

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/22/21 2:59 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't save and just tossed it because > "Why would I ever want this anymore?".  I *really* regret tossing all of > the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM. It was after all IBM's > property (since I wrote

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't save and just tossed it because "Why would I ever want this anymore?".  I *really* regret tossing all of the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM. It was after all IBM's property (since I wrote it all as an IBM employee) and I doubt any of it survive

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

and yet, after it's over and there's *nothing* left from 30+ years of collecting, there are occasional reflections on what you left behind... just saying... Steve On 11/22/2021 11:50 AM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: On 11/19/21 9:33 PM

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is >> gone, too? >> >> > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable > mass-components i

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 at 03:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and > submit the > URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but > not always > so I think it does help. When you submit a URL to a

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

Adam wrote >> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk didn't write: >> >> And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is >> gone, too? >> >> > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable > mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that us

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 2021-11-21 3:42 p.m., Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: On Nov 21, 2021, at 1:39 PM, ben via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: And what happens when yo

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Nov 21, 2021, at 1:39 PM, ben via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is gone, too? Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable mass-components inside the supermas

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is > gone, too? > > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the Milky Way and A

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> > Unless, of course, you have a mainframe shop and figured all this shit > > out back in the 1960s. > > Figuring things out accomplishes very little if what was figured out is not > broadly applied. That is correct. All the talk about this topic or archiving data that starts with "We should" or

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> From: Adrian Stoness > [M?]iror everything guys make copies and stash > From: Paul Koning > The web can make things perpetual if they are stored redundantly ... > But anything centralized is just as vulnerable as any centralized copy > ever was, whether from risk of fir

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, at 1:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Unless, of course, you have a mainframe shop and figured all this shit > out back in the 1960s. Figuring things out accomplishes very little if what was figured out is not broadly applied. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA w.

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> Unfortunately, we're just not doing enough. I don't have an answer, but for > several years I worked for the LOCKSS project at Stanford University. Their > software is open source, and is used to archive online academic journals in a > distributed, fault-tolerant peer to peer network (their pr

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/20/21 11:06 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 20/11/2021 18:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Is there an archive.org mirror? > > How many of us could afford the disk space? 30PB in 2016 apparently. I > know that 10 years from now we'll all have PB drives, but right now it > wou

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, at 6:21 PM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > > What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > > Mike Unfortunately, we're just not doing enough. I don't have an answer, but for

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

I agree there should be a way to archive and distribute classic software for as long as enough people care about it. The problem is most people don't care enough about it until it is actually lost. There is a long time between something being actively used and cared about to being obsolete and

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Nov 19, 2021, at 11:03 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Michael Kerpan wrote: >> (See the sad fate of the Living Computer Museum, which was killed by >> its new owners as soon as COVID gave them an excuse to do so) > > It's not killed. It's still there, but not open to the public.

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 2021-11-20 5:56 a.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: And what happens when you wake  up one morning to find archive.org is gone, too? I remember hearing how the web was going to make everything perpetual. And yet the list of things that have disappeared just gets longer and longer. Perpe

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> On Nov 20, 2021, at 2:06 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk > wrote: > > On 20/11/2021 18:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Is there an archive.org mirror? > > How many of us could afford the disk space? 30PB in 2016 apparently. I know > that 10 years from now we'll all have PB drives, bu

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 20/11/2021 18:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Is there an archive.org mirror? How many of us could afford the disk space? 30PB in 2016 apparently. I know that 10 years from now we'll all have PB drives, but right now it would be hard. That's 8 years of downloading @ 1Gbps. So I suspect t

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:46 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Nov 20, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > >> Michael asked > >>> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

> On Nov 20, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> Michael asked >>> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our >>> history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. >> When

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

How about all members here buy some big disks and take part in a number of curated torrents? Publicize torrent health so it’s highly visible. Organize custodians (preferably using folks who are already doing an excellent job). Cost of access to the archives is that the prospective user can evid

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

That's why I am saying you literally need a family archivist who periodically converts content on old media to new media for.old family photos. That is the only practical way to preserve things or than if the original paper/photo/tape exists and is still readable. Extending to vintage computing,

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/20/2021 10:47 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: All of the riches in the world did not prevent (and may have actually caused) the dilemma the LCM is in now. I am sure a lot of it will be saved and probably most will be preserved but not all. And that's basically how it is, history fades a

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

Archive.org, bitsavers.org, etc will all have to be converted too. I say take it upon yourself to preserve whatever it is you deem worthy and make a plan and prepare for how it will be maintained after you're gone. Family, computer, documents, whatever. Don't rely on someone else to do it for y

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

I could go on and on about this myself but consider this one... 200 years from now, if you wanted to view family photos from the past your ancestors would have to have passed them down electronically from system to system, file format converted for all of that time. It's like each generation will

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: Michael asked What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the URL t

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 at 03:30, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote: > > New owners of LCM? I thought Vulcan was the owner all along? His younger sister Jody used to be the deputy at Vulcan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jody_Allen She left in 2014: https://www.geekwire.com/2014/jody-allen-leaving-vul

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 8:34 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk Michael asked What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the U

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

Michael Kerpan wrote: > (See the sad fate of the Living Computer Museum, which was killed by > its new owners as soon as COVID gave them an excuse to do so) It's not killed. It's still there, but not open to the public. They continue to offer remote access to vintage systems. Some are now runni

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

On 11/19/21 6:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Michael asked >> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our >> history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > > Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and > submit

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

iror everything guys make copies and stash On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 8:34 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Michael asked > > What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > > history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > >

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

Michael asked > What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled

Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation

New owners of LCM? I thought Vulcan was the owner all along? Ian Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 19, 2021, at 6:21 PM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk > wrote: > > or ends up > dying without having made proper arrangements (See the sad fate of the > Living Computer Museum, which was killed by its n