Re: [Tagging] Builders' Merchants -> Timber Merchant
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 08:03:46PM +1000, John Smith wrote: > On 26 June 2010 19:24, ael wrote: > > What about trade? In uk "selling to the trade" implies an outlet which > > sells to professionals but also does ordinary retail. Admittedly this > > tends to be used in advertising to attempt to impress non-professionals, > > but still. > > > > shop = trade > > trade=building_supplies|timber_yard|agricultural_supplies|plastics|... > > Let me know what you think, or feel free to improve upon the stub I created... > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade I have expanded it a bit to help motivate "trade" for those who haven't seen this thread. Surely "wood" is redundant given "timber_yard"? ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Builders' Merchants -> Timber Merchant
On 31 July 2010 19:46, ael wrote: > I have expanded it a bit to help motivate "trade" for those who haven't > seen this thread. Surely "wood" is redundant given "timber_yard"? There are specialty places that sell upmarket timber/wood but wouldn't call themselves a timber_yard... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Polite request for when replying.
Hi all I'm easily confused at the best of times, & with the lengthy discussions threads getting split up, I'm completely lost. (& from looking at some of the replies, I suspect I'm not alone). For me it displayed in Thunderbird & Outlook express & - http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2010-July/thread.html Can I please ask that when replying to a previous message that they do it in line so that they display in one thread. Sorry to moan, but I really think it's important that these threads are easy to follow. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31/07/2010 00:47, Ross Scanlon wrote: I just don't see an ambulance/fire station as an emergency. I mean, if you fall down and injure yourself you don't try& get to the station you 'phone up& get an ambulance to come to you. The suggestion is to have fire, police and ambulance as emergency. The suggestion is to tag the buildings that house the emergency services as 'emergency'. This is wrong IMO. Amenity is sufficient. A part of the service that ambulances provide maybe for an emergency, but as has been mentioned elsewhere that's not the full service. Again, If it ain't broke... In an emergency you don't give damn where that building is, just how quickly the ambulance can get to you. Emergency should be used for items that you need to find in an emergency. cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 4:26 PM, Ross Scanlon wrote: > Total time 6 minutes > Hundreds of hours, yeah right. What you have given is an absolute minimum time for someone who already understands to actually edit the files. You've skipped research, testing and deployment. > The program I've been talking about uses osm2pgsql and mapnik so I'm well > aware of them. > If your smart you could probably add the emergency data without having to > totally rerun osm2pgsql. Smart takes time to think about / time to code. You don't seem to have included any time for it in your 6 minutes. Also as you say you are well aware of osm2pgsql and mapnik, you might even say expert. So your 6 minutes is the time for an expert to make the changes - most people are not experts. Let me give you an alternate time-line at the other end of the scale: Receive and read bug report that map symbol for police no longer appears (2 min) Research why it no longer appears (20 minutes of reading wiki and mailing lists) Research on how to add emergency to the database (20 more minutes of reading the wiki) Deicide on process to fix bug (10 minute meeting between developer and server admin) Produce patch to fix issue (we'll go with your 6 min) Re-import database - this person doesn't understand osm well enough to do something 'clever' (20 min monitoring over a few days) Test (2 min) Work out why it doesn't appear (5 min - your patch is actually very slightly wrong btw, can you spot your mistake?) Test (2 min) Deploy to live server (another 20 min monitoring) Retest (2 min) Close bug (2 min) Total time: as near to 2 hours as makes no difference. Let's say the average is an hour - I think it's fair some people will do it in 10 minutes, some will will spend 2 hours trying to work out what to change and another hour on IRC asking for help! Let's say there are 100 people using mapnik / osm in the world - I'm sure it's more than that :) 1 * 100 = 100 hours just on mapnik. However the above is just for fun - lets replace my original statement with 'a lot of time' and move on... -- Brian ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31/07/2010 01:59, John Smith wrote: On 31 July 2010 09:51, Dave F. wrote: If it ain't broke... This wouldn't have come up if everyone thought that, there is a lot of inconsistencies in the current tags on the map features page. It was you that bought it up! & you've exacerbated the inconsistency by splitting fire & ambulance stations to different keys! The original post was about fire_hydrants (I think - with the threads getting split it's hard to follow). Someone (You?) went off on an unnecessary tangent to ambulance. Your proposal doesn't add any value to OSM. Sorry John, but you really haven't thought this through. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31 July 2010 21:20, Dave F. wrote: > & you've exacerbated the inconsistency by splitting fire & ambulance > stations to different keys! This thread was about shifting police and fire to emergency... > The original post was about fire_hydrants (I think - with the threads > getting split it's hard to follow). That was another thread... > Someone (You?) went off on an unnecessary tangent to ambulance. It wasn't previously documented at all... > Your proposal doesn't add any value to OSM. Actually it does, it splits things away from let's dump everything in the amenity key space... > Sorry John, but you really haven't thought this through. I don't see you're point here, others seem to agree with the suggestions brought up, otherwise I would have been shouted down before this thread was ever cross posted to the talk list. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 26/07/2010 12:41, Richard Welty wrote: On 7/26/10 4:20 AM, John Smith wrote: On 26 July 2010 18:16, wrote: Hi, Here is a proposal for a new way to tag fire hydrants. It's more precise than the old "amenity=fire_hydrant" tag and there is a very active discussion on the German board: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=762 . Common hydrants can be tagged in the old way, but new ones should be use the new precise scheme. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant Don't we have enough amenity=* already? Why not use emergency=*? i like emergency=* as a way of going forward for these sorts of things. Why? What advantages does it bring? It's not going forward just splitting & stepping sideways. What's wrong with have lot's of amenities? The important thing is to make sure that we don't have one value tag to represent different objects. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] tag groupings
If I may add my 2¢ here. Apply the KISS principle (Keep It Short and Simple). PS: I know that KISS initialy stands for keep it simple stupid but I don't want to be rude ;-) I am a newbie. I am not a map specialist. I love to do cycling. And Openstreetmap can help me practicing my activity. And I am willing to collaborate to the project, marking cycleways, as long as I understand how I can do it. If you complexify things too much, you will lose your collaborators. You will lose me. You count on a lot of collaborators to map the world, aren't you? I have discover Openstreetmap about 2 weeks ago. I use the native openstreetmap.org interface with the "Overlays/Data" function to see details of road I am planning to use for my cycling ride. Surface=Paved/Unpaved is what is most interesting for me at this time and I can see it that way. Great. It is readable. If your tag pattern gets too complicated, (1) it won't be followed by "ordinary" collaborator and (2) it might become unreadable for ordinary people. I would add that it might also become more complex for "rendering-map maker" ... But that, I don't know. I've suggested a shoulder=yes/no tag. Somebody came out with a complex structure (probably valid) for shoulders. Does it really have to be that complicated? I don't know. You, speclists, know better than me. What are the objective of the openstreetmap project? Identify everthing on earth? Or provide a complete free map of the world? Maybe I don't get it right... But don't kill the project with unfollowable and incomprehensive rules / tags. KISS. Daniel Tremblay ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Dave F. wrote: > In an emergency you don't give damn where that building is, just how > quickly the ambulance can get to you. > Emergency should be used for items that you need to find in an emergency. sorry, mate I don't agree I do need to know where that building is, and that is because I can also attend that building for attention. Two trips to the cop shop in the last two months; a while since i attended the ambulance station but it is still an option. And as my customers think everything is an 'emergency' we'd have to tag the shop where you buy condoms as 'emergency', as well as the pub, because running out of beer is another type of emergency. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 31 July 2010 21:30, Dave F. wrote: > Why? What advantages does it bring? Stephen did a pros and cons email on this topic, you would have been better replying to that. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31/07/2010 12:25, John Smith wrote: Actually it does, it splits things away from let's dump everything in the amenity key space... There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't cause a problem. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31 July 2010 21:40, Dave F. wrote: > On 31/07/2010 12:25, John Smith wrote: >> >> Actually it does, it splits things away from let's dump everything in >> the amenity key space... > > There's nothing wrong with that. > It doesn't cause a problem. Some people think this is a problem, and just repeating yourself by saying the same thing repeatedly won't make it any more true or more valid than other peoples opinions... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Dave F. wrote: > > Actually it does, it splits things away from let's dump everything in > > the amenity key space... > > There's nothing wrong with that. > It doesn't cause a problem. I guess you have never tried to find a tag description on the wiki then. You will just have to imagine having open 3 very long pages of approved / proposed / abandoned proposals and searching for something which just approximates a particular type of "amenity" - let's assume its the workplace of an osteopath, and reading all the tags trying to decide whether this has its own tag already, or if it belongs with some other similar ones - say "physical therapists" or "allied health". Now imagine reading the Italian wiki pages or the German wiki pages, whichever you can manage least, and consider the difficulties of finding a tag out of hundreds when its not your own language. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
2010/7/31 Dave F. : ... > Your proposal doesn't add any value to OSM. > Sorry John, but you really haven't thought this through. I think we can stop right here with Dave personal attack to John (it was strange because there is at least three persons in this thread who supports this change) and think why it happens so frequently when anyone dears to suggest change current tag regime even for a little. I think there is some indication of lack of any clear vision for OSM. Sorry, but "free map for all" doesn't cut it, you need more local and concrete goals too. Current tag scheme is a mess. And mess is still a mess, even if *you* dig it. There is no clear guidelines how to create new tag (even if we stay "free to tag" platform, instructions are must have to have at least some consistency). There is old mess with almost everything and it's shadow tagged in amenity name space. While we have several relations, lot of proposed ones are not even normally accepted yet. Wiki is a chaotic bunch of links. Useful, but still chaotic. Yes, it started with emergency=fire_hydrant, but John reasonably rose a pitch because lot of things can be in this name space. Discussion was quite reasonable until "don't change what doesn't work...ups...works...sort of" meme didn't kicked in. I understand amount of work what should be done to change things. However, should it be stoppage power so we do nothing - I really doubt that. Let's be more civil and polite with each other too. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
2010/7/31 Dave F. : > On 31/07/2010 12:25, John Smith wrote: >> >> Actually it does, it splits things away from let's dump everything in >> the amenity key space... > > There's nothing wrong with that. > It doesn't cause a problem. It *does* cause a confusion in lot of OSMers, experienced and new alike. It drives contributions away. Believe me, I see it everyday. License change won't kill OSM, tag inconsistency will. Introducing new name spaces to separate huge amenity crowd logically is definitely way to go. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On Saturday 31 July 2010 13:45:29 John Smith wrote: > just repeating yourself by > saying the same thing repeatedly won't make it any more true or more > valid than other peoples opinions... Could you please, pretty please apply this "rule" to yourself too. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31 July 2010 22:04, Cartinus wrote: > On Saturday 31 July 2010 13:45:29 John Smith wrote: >> just repeating yourself by >> saying the same thing repeatedly won't make it any more true or more >> valid than other peoples opinions... > > Could you please, pretty please apply this "rule" to yourself too. Those that have made some of the claims made against me, are just as guilty of it themselves... It's kind of like looking into a mirror universe isn't it? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
> Work out why it doesn't appear (5 min - your patch is actually very > slightly wrong btw, can you spot your mistake?) Spotted my friday afternoon coding did you. Glad to see someones on the ball!! > However the above is just for fun - lets replace my original statement > with 'a lot of time' and move on... Sounds sensible to me, I'm busy tracing new nearmap imagery. -- Cheers Ross ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 31 July 2010 22:47, Ross Scanlon wrote: > Sounds sensible to me, I'm busy tracing new nearmap imagery. With extremely useful changeset comments? :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31/07/2010 12:50, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: Let's be more civil and polite with each other too. I resent your accusations of me being uncivil & impolite. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31/07/2010 12:49, Liz wrote: I guess you have never tried to find a tag description on the wiki then. You will just have to imagine having open 3 very long pages of approved / proposed / abandoned proposals and searching for something which just approximates a particular type of "amenity" - let's assume its the workplace of an osteopath, and reading all the tags trying to decide whether this has its own tag already, or if it belongs with some other similar ones - say "physical therapists" or "allied health". Now imagine reading the Italian wiki pages or the German wiki pages, whichever you can manage least, and consider the difficulties of finding a tag out of hundreds when its not your own language. Those are all value tags. When you search for those, the key tag is irrelevant: http://tagstat.hypercube.telascience.org/search.php?query=fire_station Any problem finding a value within the wiki is more a problem of the wiki than anything else. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Builders' Merchants -> Timber Merchant
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 07:57:40PM +1000, John Smith wrote: > On 31 July 2010 19:46, ael wrote: > > I have expanded it a bit to help motivate "trade" for those who haven't > > seen this thread. Surely "wood" is redundant given "timber_yard"? > > There are specialty places that sell upmarket timber/wood but wouldn't > call themselves a timber_yard... Ok. Fair enough. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31 July 2010 17:20, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: > Discussion > was quite reasonable until "don't change what doesn't > work...ups...works...sort of" meme didn't kicked in. > > I understand amount of work what should be done to change things. > However, should it be stoppage power so we do nothing - I really doubt > that. > > Let's be more civil and polite with each other too. +1 I am not looking forward for a tag revolution , but lot of tags need to be worked on and agreed by the community . Not just the tagging list , there should be a process by which the larger community including those who just click the presets in JOSM/potatch are involved. We get everyone into license discussion by showing a small banner on the top . why not have a banner or something which grabs attention for 'tag under consideration/discussion' . some people would be pessimistic to say 'as if we hadn't enough flame wars ' but majority opinion needs to be *collected* Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri http://look-pavi.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 31/07/2010 12:36, Liz wrote: On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Dave F. wrote: In an emergency you don't give damn where that building is, just how quickly the ambulance can get to you. Emergency should be used for items that you need to find in an emergency. sorry, mate I don't agree I do need to know where that building is, and that is because I can also attend that building for attention. Two trips to the cop shop in the last two months; a while since i attended the ambulance station but it is still an option. Fine; if you need a police station you're going to search for 'police' or 'police station'. The fact that the key tag is emergency or amenity or whatever is irrelevant. 'Police' is the operative word. And as my customers think everything is an 'emergency' we'd have to tag the shop where you buy condoms as 'emergency', as well as the pub, because running out of beer is another type of emergency. Now you're just talking nonsense. A couple of general point to all about tagging: There is a difference between the 'key' tag & 'value' tag that many don't appear to appreciate & should be learnt. To differentiate between different entities, such as, in this thread, different uses of hospitals & ambulances can be clarified using sub rags - it doesn't have to be done in the primary one. cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
On 1 August 2010 12:11, Dave F. wrote: > To differentiate between different entities, such as, in this thread, > different uses of hospitals & ambulances can be clarified using sub rags - > it doesn't have to be done in the primary one. People think amenity is over crowded, and perhaps Liz's suggestion about renaming amenity to various is valid, at least then it would more accurately reflect that it's a dumping ground for everything. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
