Re: [RE-wrenches] Aluminum conduit LBs

[Keith Cronin]

You might consider using a gutter in lieu of the LB or a junction box if the 
site conditions are conducive.




From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 6:47:37 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aluminum conduit LBs

 
The lesson was that even if, say, for a 2 ½ “ conduit says three 350 MCMs are 
OK, that doesn’t mean that a 2 ½” LB I was planning on using is rated for three 
350s.
 
For the first time ever I saw printed in the LB itself the specified max 
conduct 
size, in this case 4/0 for a 2 ½” LB.
 
So for this short conduit run I upsized everything to 3”.
 
I looked at the Thomas and Betts spec sheet kindly supplied by Ratico on their 
LB offerings and there was no notation of max conductor sizes that I could find.
 
marco 
 
Marco,
I'm curious to know what you did after the "hard" lesson. Was it an issue of 
difficult/impossible installation, or an AHJ issue? It seems like the most 
straightforward solution in a situation like this is to replace your conduit 
bodies (LBs in this case) with a larger size, and then install reducers in 
order 
to leave the existing conduit runs intact. I'm looking at an upcoming 
installation where I would like to use 1-1/4" EMT, but will need 1-1/2" conduit 
bodies to be ok with wire fill. 

 
-Hans
 


 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco 
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 8:19 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aluminum conduit LBs
Anyone know where I could go to find out the max conductor sizes that threaded 
Al. LBs can handle?
 
I learned the hard way that a conduit of X inches that can handle conductors of 
a certain size does not necessarily mean that a LB of the same diameter can 
handle the same size conductors.
 
Thanks,
marco
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

[Keith Cronin]

Over the years, the aluminum screw was part of what was peddled out here in the 
late 90's until 2004.
In the tropics, it takes very little time for corrosion to set in and degrade 
the connection.
The solution was to use noalox on every connection and replace the aluminum 
screws with stainless bolts.

Even out here, stain-less is what you get- it just stains...less, or degrades 
slower.
Salt is the enemy of clean connections.





From: Peter Parrish 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sun, September 12, 2010 12:50:47 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

Are you sure that's a ILSCO GBL-4DBT lug? I am pretty sure the set screw is
not SS, which it should be to be the genuine part.

- Peter


Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:10 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

A picture is worth a thousand words, (hopefully this will upload)
Here's a traditional Ilsco Lug after less than 5 years near the ocean:


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Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

[Keith Cronin]

Perhaps in the future, we can go with a composite frame and remove the 
grounding 
challenge altogether?
Carbon fiber would be spectacular, minus the cost.




From: R Ray Walters 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 7:14:36 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

I didn't do the original  install, and I couldn't ID the lug because of the 
corrosion.
I believe everyone is correct that this isn't the DBT rated lug, though.
Another reason to use the WEEB:  a crew can't accidentally install the wrong 
(but almost identical, when new) lug. 
I'm sure the non-DBT lugs got mixed together in a bin at some point. 


R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer


 

On Sep 12, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Jamie Johnson wrote:

 That looks like a tin plated aluminum lug (aluminum corrosion) with a plated 
steel screw (rusted screw)...
> 
>Here is an explanation of the differences between both ILSCO GBL 4 lugs from 
>John Wiles Code Corner in Homepower issue 102
> 
>"The Ilsco GBL-4DBT is a lay-in lug made of solid copper, which is then 
>tin-plated. It has a
>stainless steel screw to hold the wire. The lug accepts a #14
>(2 mm2) to #4 (21 mm2) copper conductor. It is listed fordirect burial (DB) 
>and 
>outdoor use and can be attached to
>aluminum structures (the tin plate). The much cheaper Ilsco
>GBL-4 lug looks identical, but is tin-plated aluminum, has
>a plated screw, and is not listed for outdoor use."
> 
>Jamie Johnson
>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #031310-118
>General Manager
>SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
>EC13001765 
> 
> Original Message 
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB
>>From: "Peter Parrish" 
>>Date: Sun, September 12, 2010 6:50 pm
>>To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
>>
>>Are you sure that's a ILSCO GBL-4DBT lug? I am pretty sure the set screw is
>>not SS, which it should be to be the genuine part.
>>
>>- Peter
>>
>>
>>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
>>California Solar Engineering, Inc.
>>820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
>>CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
>>peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 
>>Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>>
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
>>Walters
>>Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:10 PM
>>To: RE-wrenches
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB
>>
>>A picture is worth a thousand words, (hopefully this will upload)
>>Here's a traditional Ilsco Lug after less than 5 years near the ocean:
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase v. string inverter

[Keith Cronin]

Perhaps some day in the not too distant future, we will switch from tax credits 
(like in Hawaii) to performance based incentives and this topic will be 
resolved 
from empirical evidence vs unsubstantiated claims.
Then the educated public can see a side by side comparison.
This would have to have some independent verification and a side by side 
comparison of string vs individual inverters, or we are just guessing.

Next week in LA at SPI, there is bound to be more enphase types of products 
hitting the market. Eventually, I see it all going that way- having them built 
in. Sure there are lots of debates, like this past months article in solar pro 
magazine, but if they came off the assembly line AC ready, it will truly be 
another appliance that needs to be plugged in.

String inverters for all of us have kept the riddle alive by not always 
providing the granular information for us to know the effectiveness of the 
solar 
panels and the varying site conditions they are required to work in.

Aloha

Keith




From: Darryl Thayer 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 2:52:02 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase v. string inverter


I have seen the top performing contractor in my area sell behind a chiminy and 
under a tree, claiming 10% more using Enphase than unshaded.

Darryl

--- On Sun, 10/10/10, Jamie Johnson  wrote:


>From: Jamie Johnson 
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase v. string inverter
>To: "RE-wrenches" 
>Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 7:38 AM
>
>
>Marco,
>
>
>The last I heard the NREL was testing enphase vs. a string inverter, they were 
>also suppose to test enphase vs. A competitors module level mpp tracking.  Not 
>sure if that performance test is complete yet.  
>
>
>I have seen 1 independent unshaded test ( potentially biased ) which IIRC 
>showed 
>enphase ~1% less than a string inverter, this seems to match the inverters CEC 
>rating.
>
>
>What we see around here is an over estimate of kWh production by the selling 
>contractor using enphase, sometimes by 50+% greater than unshaded kWh 
>estimates.
>
>
>Performance guarantees with monetary compensation back to the customer if 
>estimates are not met can be a good thing and improve the industry IMHO.
>
>
>Jamie Johnson
>General Manager
>SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC TM
>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #031310-118
>(941) 380 - 0098
>www.SPEFL.com
>Commercial & Residential
>FL State Certified # EC13001765
>
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>On Oct 9, 2010, at 7:07 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf"  wrote:
>
>
>Does anyone know of any reports out there from a neutral, 3rd party which 
>compares an Enphase array with an array using a string inverter with both 
>arrays 
>on the same unshaded surface?
>> 
>>Some Enphase peddlers here are saying that the energy harvest from an Enphase 
>>system is going to be better since they supposedly come on sooner and stay on 
>>later in the day.
>  
>One guy is actually saying that the Enphase inverters come on before the sun 
>comes over the horizon.   Maybe from the same family that claimed that a-Si 
>modules produced power from the moonlight. 
>
>  
>Thanks, 
>marco 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] warranty liabilities

[Keith Cronin]

Marco

Perhaps the offering to clients is workmanship and the actual product falls 
under the domain of the manufacturer.

We all have folks that call saying their inverter is not working anymore and 
less of a challenge with the panels having a short life.

If a client wants to be covered, look at the auto industry on how they address 
repairs. If its under warranty, its covered. If not, its a cost to the end user.
Let them know this upfront, as this could be the difference between them going 
with you and someone else.
Sure you could be out of biz in 1 year and offer a 5 year warranty, but putting 
$ in an escrow account for this is standard and what manu's do- have a reserve 
for the unfortunate events that plague products.
Since we offer more services and then products vs manus offer products and 
generally less services, this is a way to look at the relationship with the 
client base moving forward.

The warranty is also a bridge to your clients in the future for other services, 
like energy efficiency and things we don't even know exist yet, or are on the 
bleeding edge and almost ready for prime time, like storage. Storage will be 
the 
holy grail, moving forward and having a conduit to the clients to tell them 
about it can come via a warranty/maintenance relationship. I'm sure many of the 
off grid wrenches have these relationships, as folks can have a tendency to 
smoke their first sets of batteries and need TLC and guidance along the way. 
This goes for the folks that want to live off grid, but might like to spend 
less 
time being a power plant manager and focus on other aspects of life.

Without warranty-maintenance, we will have orphaned systems. Makes you wonder 
today, how many systems are deployed and not functioning to their fullest 
capabilities, doesn't it? Shame, as we have all indirectly paid for the systems 
in the form of tax credits at the fed and state level, so we are part of the 
problem and can be part of the solution.

Keith




From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sun, October 31, 2010 1:32:43 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] warranty liabilities

 
In places like California, and other states as well I’m sure, a PV integrator 
needs to provide a bumper-to-bumper system warranty of what? 10 years.
 
I’d like to know if many, or any, of you all put aside any money to cover your 
future warranty liabilities.  (I don’t.)
 
My belief is that we as an industry—at least as far as the large majority of us 
who are independent small companies—don’t have a clue when it comes to 
calculating what our present and future exposure is as far as warranty 
liability 
issues.
 
Having gone through the boom and bust of the solar thermal business in CA. in 
the late 1970s and early 1980s, there were tons and tons of orphan systems that 
had been supposedly covered by warranties by companies that were long gone.  
Makes we wonder how close or far we are these days to a similar situation…
 
marco___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Expected Life of SW Inverters

[Keith Cronin]

William

My SW4048 went through 3 boards from 98-04 until I retired it. Blowing salty 
air 
across a FET rail and mother board that is not conformal coated, created a 
perpetual triage environment.

Sealed units or units that pull air out vs blowing them directly on their 
boards 
in a coastal environment will increase the likelihood of a longer service life.

Alot of this experience birthed SMA's first generation inverters with the giant 
fins on the top, like my 2500 grid tied unit.

Heat, salt and varying voltage, amperage and watts flowing into these devices 
surely contributes to their longevity as well.




From: William Miller 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 6:51:11 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expected Life of SW Inverters

Friends:

Speaking of life expectancy, has anyone had experience with SW inverters in a 
coastal environment?

William Miller ___
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[RE-wrenches] Inspectors on ladders and roofs

[Keith Cronin]

Wrenches

Today, when I ran into one of our electrical inspectors, we had a discussion 
about having the ability to have thorough inspections for solar.
In our jurisdictional, they are not allowed/required to go on to the roof.

So, how do they ever get to see all of the grounding and mounting methods used 
on a roof and verify whether or not they are adequate?

Sure, they ask to open the electrical infrastructure on the ground, but what 
about the stuff on top? Combiner box check? 

Wiring routed in a way that meets the standard?

What's it like by you?

Thanks

Keith___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing

[Keith Cronin]

It makes sense to never drive your car at top speed for the tires, engine etc. 
and this generally applies to virtually any type of technology we own.

There can be an argument made to say the engineers have put in a safety factor, 
so don't worry, but I'd like my inverter to have a longer service life.

When you factor in heat on components and the cycling they experience, plus the 
added edge of cloud effects, it seems prudent to lean on the side of being 
conservative.

Seems like if we don't we will be replacing lots of inverters in the coming 
years. We really don't know how mods will perform over time. The whole + - what 
their nameplate is, is anyones guess.

Out here in the tropics, we already need to contend with humidity and salt with 
the heat, so being mindful of the variables is important.

However, many integrators in a sales type of environment could encourage 
putting 
more mods on an inverter to sell more horsepower.

Keith




From: Dave Palumbo 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 1:55:19 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing


Bill,
 
In addition to power production losses due to arrays that are oversized for the 
inverter (although within manufacturers specs) how concerned should we be with 
shorter inverter service life because the inverter is working at its maximum?
 
David Palumbo
Independent Power LLC 
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
www.independentpowerllc.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Vermont Solar Partner
23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 
 
 
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:20 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
 
Kent,
 
The article that David Brearley cited is a very good discussion on this 
subject. 
It clearly shows the under-prediction of losses due to hitting the inverter 
peak 
power capability when using longer-term data. This study was done by the 
Fraunhofer Institute in southern Germany. They get a lot more clouds there so 
the results might be comparable to some of the more cloudy regions of the 
United 
States. I would expect the results to be worse in much of the U.S. that gets 
clouds and higher irradiation than Freiburg. However, the results will 
definitely be less for much of California since clouds don’t happen for 
sections 
of the year. 

 
It all matters where you are.
 
Great discussion.
 
Bill.
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
 
Bill,

The data are 15 minute averages so I'm sure that some edge of cloud events are 
washed out in the average. The energy they contributed was in the total 
measurement, but wouldn't have been included in my sum of clipped output.  
Observing the data, you can see some edge of cloud effects despite the 15 
minute 
averaging. And on many days I suspect there is edge of cloud effect that 
wouldn't have hit the clipping limit too.  Obviously, missing some short 
interval events biases the results a little but probably not by very much.  For 
the sake of argument assume that there was a 3 minute, spike in output 
100-watts 
above my threshold setting.  In the 15-minute average that still would have 
been 
a 20-watt bump and with 10-watt data resolution, it probably would have showed 
up, but say it didn't show up or that it end up just below the threshold.  Say 
this happened once  every week, not likely, but if it did the missed data would 
amount to 0.25 kWhr or about 5% as much as the total observed with the data 
clipped at 800 watts.  So you have to really stretch the brief edge of cloud 
argument to integrate enough energy to throw my graph off by very much.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



Bill Brooks wrote: 
Kent,
 
How often were your data records? To capture edge of cloud effects, you need 
one-second data. Not many people gather that fast or that much data on 
inverters. I don’t think there is that much energy in these spikes, but they 
are 
real and make some difference. 15-minute average data will completely wash out 
this data.
 
This is also a deficiency in modeling software since most models are using 
hourly data.
 
Bill.
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:18 PM
To: Wrenches; Marco Mangelsdorf
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
 

Attached is a graph that I produced to document the effect of various ratios 
between the PV array size and the inverter size.  I extracted output power data 
for a 1020-watt system located in NE Oregon that is on the Sunny Portal. The 
data are publicly accessible so feel free to run your own analysis.  Better 
yet, 
a

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Keith Cronin]

Andrew

Perhaps another approach could be warranted? Joint venture relationships can 
serve each party well, as long as their structured in a way that benefits the 
companies involved.
Roofers are a good source of leads for us and visa versa. Its worked for me and 
I know of others that also see value in this across the country.

The work we do, in the grid tied arena falls into two generally accepted 
categories:
Mechanical work
Electrical work
Yes, some jurisdictions may say it is all electrical work and finding a 
demarcation point is open to discussion, but this is how its being performed 
across the globe now.

If we like it or not, its going to continue. Here in our market there are over 
150 companies (that I can count) doing PV. When I started, there where about 6. 
General contractors and the like. They need electrical contractors to perform 
the electrical portion of the work. In many ways, many of these other types of 
contracting companies are far better at lead generation, marketing and sales 
than the top electrical contractors and here is why- historically, electrical 
contractors have subordinated themselves to general contractors and are 
"bidders". Even today, many of my electrical contractor competitors are ok, 
with 
just doing the installation work for the general contractors or sales and 
marketing companies, as they want to focus on doing the work only and don't 
have 
the temperament for running a sales force.

Lastly, I believe you can offer other ancillary services to your customers, 
increasing the value of the relationship that have higher margins than the 
commoditized residential pv markets today.

So, I think we all need to do like Darwin mentioned and adapt to the market 
conditions, so we can not just survive, but thrive in our gold rush. How about 
a 
residential PPA for your customers to differentiate?

Aloha

Keith




From: Solar Energy Solutions 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:41:29 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation 
methods


Joel,
 
Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we help the 
unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses.  We get  
a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems.  It 
is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, 
they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles.  This whole 
thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems 
were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
 
Respectfully, 



Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond 
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com 
 
"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."

--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson  wrote:


>From: Joel Davidson 
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
>installation 
>methods
>To: "RE-wrenches" 
>Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
>
>
> 
>Guys,
>You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' 
>bad 
>work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and 
>your 
>quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and 
>electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
>Joel Davidson
>- Original Message - 
>>From: Warren Lauzon 
>>To: RE-wrenches 
>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new 
>>installation 
>>methods
>>
>>
>>We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of 
>>solar 
>>installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they 
>>were 
>>far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your 
>>example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the 
>>inverter, and not in conduit.
>>  
>>From: Nick Soleil 
>>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
>>To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
>>methods
>>  Hi wrenches:
>>   Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell 
>>solar?  One company thought of something that I had never considered.  Listen 
>>to 
>>this neat story.
>>   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and 
>>re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is that 
>>the 
>>roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided 
>>to 
>>leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to 
>>the 
>>structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!  
>>
>>Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact 
>>connector came unplugged.  The customer no

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Keith Cronin]

Folks.

To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at 
our local convention center.
New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no 
different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar 
installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing.

Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be 
providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its 
even 
available.
If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that 
others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary.

I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this 
week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook 
other value added services which could benefit the customer.
Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to 
see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise)

1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients 
pool.
2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and 
interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency.
3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client.
4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- 
doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues.
5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into 
the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate.
6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug 
and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over 
to pull it out.
7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save 
$ 
on the utility bill.
8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator 
outside. 
This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on 
date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my 
Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. 
Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client 
has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this 
sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month.
9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a 
mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the 
code/cord situation.
10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there 
were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in 
it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I 
recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached 
its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel.

I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection to 
identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value to 
the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to 
other 
things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all 
doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and 
offer 
something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction. When 
we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name gets 
elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about 
their 
experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities will 
do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers, upon 
completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show the 
system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!).

Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as it 
has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone who 
might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People tend to 
remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It 
also 
means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the 
competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a solution to their current 
situation and a step by step way to get there, together.

Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler plate 
questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and your 
company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market your 
services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project, or at 
least this has been my road to success. People want to do business with people 
they like and trust and price might not always be the final decision maker, as 
they really want a company that will foll

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Keith Cronin]

Nick, et al

What if you could increase the value and trust of the relationship one step 
further and give them an upfront price vs a T&M for the extra work?

They would know, before we begin the work to remedy the idea of how much it 
will 
cost and how long it would take.
Another feather in your cap, to manage the relationship with the client, or 
prospective client.

All of the 10 items listed below, can be quoted, out of your company price 
book, 
on the spot. (well, except for shopping for the refrigerator, but you could go 
online and look at sears.com !! with them)
To me, this adds alot of common ground with your prospect and exemplifies that 
you're organized and been there, done that and anticipate 
things. Thoroughness helps get the next project and when they know
what it is going to cost, before we do the work, even more comforting to them. 
If found in 90% + situations we can help our prospective customers with 
knowledge, education and what it will cost to perform
the tasks needed to fulfill their needs.

This also helps your business in a few tangible ways. One, you assign time to 
tasks. You can plan out your labor on your calendar with a reasonable margin of 
error for scheduling your team. Two, by providing a price
on the spot, you can also have terms, like pay when completed. I equate this to 
going to the supermarket. You can't leave without paying. Every item is priced, 
before you go to the checkout counter. It should be the same
with our services. T&M is necessary sometimes, but it gives wiggle room for 
delayed payments, and now we are the bank. How much money do we end up floating 
each week/month year? We've kinda trained the buying public that this is ok. 
It's expensive to do and by offering price before service and payment at the 
end 
of the service, we greatly address our working capital and cash flow 
constraints. Third, if you have team members going out to do the work, aka, 
your 
journeyman and apprentices, there will be time associated to tasks and you can 
setup reward systems to focus the team on being productive. I call it WIIFM- 
what's in it for me, they all want to know what it is, so now we are "upfront" 
with them. We reward excellence and include them in the successful outcome. 
They 
are more enrolled in working with you, as this can sculpt their destiny and the 
choices they make. They might be less inclined to leave at 3:30 that afternoon, 
when if they just stay another 1.5 hours (example), they'd complete the job and 
be available to tackle the next job in the queue.

Not only do I believe this is possible, but it is something we've done since 
2003. It is effective, it works and it reshapes the culture and rituals in your 
organization.

If you have any questions, you can contact me off list.

Aloha

Keith




From: Nick Soleil 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 10:12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation 
methods


Hi Keith:
That kind of thing really helps develop a trusting relationship with the 
customer.  Most customers seem willing to accept those charges on a T&M basis.

 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:    707-769-9037





From: Keith Cronin 
To: RE-wrenches  
Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 1:54:40 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation 
methods


Folks.

To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at 
our local convention center.
New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no 
different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar 
installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing.

Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be 
providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its 
even 
available.
If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that 
others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary.

I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this 
week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook 
other value added services which could benefit the customer.
Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to 
see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise)

1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients 
pool.
2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and 
interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency.
3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client.
4. Upon removal of the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Keith Cronin]

Nick and everyone.

Yes and Yes.

Our contract is a 3 part NCR form. Our flat rate price book has 82 pages of 
tasks for our electrical services and labeling the panel is one of them.

If you, or anyone is interested in getting a sample of our book, contact me off 
list.




From: Nick Soleil 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:57:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation 
methods


Hi Kieth:
Have you really drawn up a contract to label a load center.  Honestly, that 
should probably be included as part of the PV project.  Many inspectors want to 
see that the panels are labelled at final inspection.   

I end up doing all servicing on an hourly basis.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037





From: R Ray Walters  
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:48:06 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation 
methods

Keith;

I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that 
you 
then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property.
If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden 
in the wall?
Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, 
everything else is their problem.

I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the 
solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and 
grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun)
However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, 
unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place.
Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause 
enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it  back in you 
will cause a short.
I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to 
the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers.
Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' 
worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire)


R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer


 

On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:

Folks.
>
>
>To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at 
>our local convention  center.
>New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no 
>different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar 
>installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing.
>
>
>Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be 
>providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its 
>even 
>available.
>If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that 
>others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous,  but necessary.
>
>
>I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did 
>this 
>week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly 
>overlook 
>other value added services which could benefit the customer.
>Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to 
>see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise)
>
>
>1. GFCI  receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients 
>pool.
>2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and 
>interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency.
>3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client.
>4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to 
>happen- 
>doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues.
>5. Open junction boxes with wires  essentially incapable of being stuffed into 
>the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate.
>6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug 
>and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning 
>over 
>to pull it out.
>7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save 
>$ 
>on the utility bill.
>8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator 
>outside. 
>This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on 
>date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my 
>Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. 
>Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client 
>has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerat

Re: [RE-wrenches] Problem with NABCEP ad

[Keith Cronin]

There is alot of debate in the air about NABCEP here locally.
Many folks would need to fly to CA to take the exam which is expensive and many 
here don't see alot of value and I'll tell you a few reasons why...

1. With 150 entities performing solar work in some capacity and probably 1500+ 
- 
installers, the work is really split into 2 camps:
a. Mechanical work- this work seems to be mounting, racking, lugging modules- 
atypical laborer work on jobs.
b. Electrical- grounding, conduit etc.

Most of these entities either have in house engineering or farm this out to 
other firms. Many integrators are fairly good at following drawings and the 
installations
seem to be getting more streamlined, as the industry "grows up".
Yes, there needs to be another set of eyes to ensure the systems are designed 
and deployed correctly, but I must say even the local inspectors are often
ill trained and unfamiliar with understanding what they're tasked to look at.

There are also many companied popping up across the country, diving into the 
gold rush. It is the typical general contractor- subcontractor (electrical 
company that does PV) relationship.
Most EC's don't have marketing and sales dept's and seem content to just do the 
installations only.

So, while I applaud the NABCEP idea, we first need the inspectors to know what 
they're inspecting, as anything kinda goes here. (Bill Brooks has been out here 
and the inspectors can't agree even to what the standards are from town to 
town, 
island to island). The fiefdoms run amok.wild west.
Throw in the flight, hotel etc for the Hawaii contingency, and its a tough sell 
in our banana republic.

Within the next 5 years, I see AC panels for the residential market which will 
potentially minimize alot of the calcs we are used to doing.
This will make things like HVAC and will be relegated to appliances on the roof.
Like Jason suggests, the sales people will be able to convince the homeowners. 
On the commercial side, it won't matter as much, as the integration company or 
a 
3rd party financed project would be on the hook for installation deficiencies...




From: Jason Szumlanski 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 10:05:48 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Problem with NABCEP ad

We have one Entry Level NABCEP employee. I, myself, am not certified. In
our neck of the woods I have never heard of any prospective customer
asking our sales reps if we are NAPCEP certified. Not one. Even our most
inquisitive and well-read customers are not very concerned with
certifications. They want to know our *references* and *experience*.

All else being equal, would customers likely hire a recent NABCEP
certified installer with 5 years experience and 100kW under their belt
or a non-certified installer with 15 years of experience and 1mW? NABCEP
can advertise whatever they want (darned 1st amendment). But good solar
salespeople will always have a way to counter the certification
argument.

I know of at least one NABCEP certified installer in my area. In fact,
he's probably reading this right now. I've seen his work. He's a great
installer. He may be one of the most experienced and capable installers
in our area. But I don't think he's getting lots of jobs because of his
certification, per se, at least for now... I could be wrong; and if I
am, maybe I'll see you in NABCEP training soon!

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
wire...@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 8:13 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problem with NABCEP ad

Hello Wrenches,

NABCEP has a full page ad in Home Power magazine that tells potential PV
buyers to "Insist on a NABCEP Certified Installer". That's a great ad if
you
are certified but not so good if you are not. I know many of you are but
lots of us are not yet certified. 

NABCEP is doing a great job to ensure that PV is installed by qualified
personal but is it their job to unintentionally cause non NABCEP
certified
installers who are otherwise very qualified to lose business. I don't
think
so. 

I contacted NABCEP about the consequences of this ad and actually asked
them
to stop running it or at least tone it down so it doesn't cause
installers
like to me to lose business. They disagreed with me.

Am I being too sensitive here?

Thank you.

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com
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[RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home

[Keith Cronin]

Hi

Was wondering if anyone has any new data points on the additional value a PV 
system adds to the home?

If someone spends $X for a system and saves $Y a month/year, how is this being 
calculated?

Do we have actuaries with enough empirical data to suggest what the numbers 
would look like?

Realizing alot has to do with location, current cost per kWh of electricity etc.

Could have swore there were some studies done to imput the value of two homes 
on the same street, one with solar and one without- for some granular details 
on the delta in values.

Thanks

Keith___
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[RE-wrenches] PVC running through the house

[Keith Cronin]

Hi folks

Was wondering- does anyone know back in 2005, if it was permissible to run DC 
conductors from the roof, through the home to the inverter location, inside the 
house, per the NEC?

Thanks 

Keith Cronin___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SLDs with Mac

[Keith Cronin]

Nick

A middle solution is to use the Mac and get VMWare Fusion and put Windows 7 or 
XP on it.
You can try it for free and then get it for $79.

Best of both worlds on one machine. This is what I've been doing since '08.

 
Aloha,


Keith



From: Nick Soleil 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Friday, April 8, 2011 1:55 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SLDs with Mac


Hello Mac Users:
    I have been using Visio Professional for my Single Line Diagrams, but am 
considering a change to Mac.  Can I open or edit Visio diagrams with any Mac 
applications?  Probably not.  What programs are available for generating 
electrical diagrams?  Have you used OmniGraffle?  It seems really user 
friendly.  
    What about AutoCAD for Mac? 
Nick Soleil
707-321-2937

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SLDs with Mac

[Keith Cronin]

Max, et al.

I've also found parallels to be clunky a couple of years ago as well. Rumored 
that the new version is catching up to VMWare.

Even when VMWare first came out, it was a little slow to boot the OS- aka, 
Windows XP.

They've made some great strides since then, so perhaps consider an upgrade or 
switch to VMWare.
 
Aloha,


Keith



From: Max Balchowsky 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SLDs with Mac


I've got Parallels on my iMac also - yes it's too clunky to be useful. 
Draftsight is working out great for Cad Dwgs on the Mac, and, again, it's a 
free download...

 Max Balchowsky
Design Engineer
SEE Systems
1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217
Newport Beach, Ca. 92660
760-403-6810





From: R Ray Walters 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sat, April 9, 2011 9:42:02 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SLDs with Mac

I've been running Parallels on a Mac for 3 years, and I just bought a PC for 
the PC stuff. I like my Mac, but after waiting 1/2 an hour to boot and update 
everything each time, Parallels is just really clunky.
I like Omnigraffle on my Mac. way better than simpler drawing programs, but not 
near as complicated as AutoCad.
I consider it optimal for one line diagrams and simple layout stuff. Its quick 
to use.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Apr 9, 2011, at 10:40 AM, Dave Click wrote:

> Nick, you can still use Visio/AutoCAD on the Mac if you install Parallels or 
> VMWare, which allow you to run Windows programs. Either of those would run 
> you about $80, which is cheaper than OmniGraffle. Each of these three 
> software packages have trial versions so you can check them out before you 
> commit.
> 
> On 2011/4/8 7:55 PM, Nick
 Soleil wrote:
>> Hello Mac Users:
>> I have been using Visio Professional for my Single Line Diagrams, but am
>> considering a change to Mac. Can I open or edit Visio diagrams with any
>> Mac applications? Probably not. What programs are available for
>> generating electrical diagrams? Have you used OmniGraffle? It seems
>> really user friendly.
>> What about AutoCAD for Mac?
>> Nick Soleil
>> 707-321-2937
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Generator-Transfer Switch-Solar

[Keith Cronin]

Wrenches

With the advent of micros on the scene and the potential for using a generator 
on an on-grid property, are any of you using a transfer switch to isolate the 
genny and use the PV to feed the genny to reduce fuel consumption?

Are there issues with frequency and voltage?

How are the utilities looking at these types of installations? Favorable?

Would you use 2 transfer switches- one ahead of the other- to completely 
isolate the property or circuit panel to ensure there is no chance of a 
backfeed?

Is it just better to keep things isolated as two separate systems?
 
Regards,


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[RE-wrenches] Organizing the field team via project management

[Keith Cronin]

For those folks with larger wrench teams, how are you keeping your schedules 
and milestones glued together?

We've used www.zoho.com for CRM and are contemplating using their Projects tool 
for project management collaboration.

Have any of you used it? Like?

What are you using currently?
 
Regards,


Keith___
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[RE-wrenches] Solmetric PVA-600

[Keith Cronin]

Any wrenches using this tool?

If so, feedback?

http://www.solmetric.com/pva600.html


Bill- what is your take on its IV Curve measurement data?

Perhaps its been a while, but I recall your tested was in the $20k cost zone?

This seems like a reasonable tool to have and all of the benefits of 
commissioning plus being able to quickly identify challenges.

It also seems to provide a glimpse into the future of mod manu's products and 
their efficacy over time.
 
Aloha,


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solmetric PVA-600

[Keith Cronin]

My sense is this tool, at this price point of $4k is a good investment for 
various reasons.

1. Analytics- know right away what is right and what needs remedy.
2. Old systems- maintenance program- I always ponder how many circa late 1990's 
to today systems that are operating at or below their originally projected 
performance. Its akin to fixing a leaky pipe.
3. Real world- objective data- you or the tech grabbing the data- it can be 
brought back to the shop and verified- as opposed to taking some measurements 
and writing them down on a piece of paper on the clipboard.

On the tech side- perhaps an iPad with the virtualization software could remedy 
the tablet issue? Might need a unique connector or maybe go wireless?
 

Keith



From: Glenn Burt 
To: g...@icarussolarservices.com; 'RE-wrenches' 

Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solmetric PVA-600


Thanks Gary,
That is a bummer knowing the dearth of Windows tablets available. Seems like it 
would be a match made in heaven for real-time feedback.
 
I am having the same disappointment looking for a tablet (small & portable) to 
use when troubleshooting DAS systems. Hard to believe I am now complaining 
about having to carry my laptop everywhere to do so, but I want lighter & 
smaller! Not so easy to balance and work on your knee where inverters are 
typically installed.
 
*sigh*
 
-Glenn
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Willett
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 7:32 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solmetric PVA-600
 
GLENN:  The PVA600 uses a Windows based application.

I have a MacBookPro that runs Windows 7 natively using the "Bootcamp" software 
that is bundled in with the Mac OS.

So unless your tablet can run Windows in either native of emulation mode, 
you're ( currently ) out of luck.

As with most manufacturers, customer demand probably drives Solmetric and the 
OS platforms on which the PVA600 software will run. Make your wishes for an 
Android version known to them.
Regards,


Gary Willett, PE
g...@icarussolarservices.com

On 7/30/2011 9:47 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: 
So the PVA-600 doesn’t require a Windows specific program to access the logging 
device?
This has been a question for me as most tablets now run Android OS and not a 
Microsoft product.
Is it just browser based perhaps?
 
Thanks!
Glenn Burt
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Dahl
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 2:51 PM
To: Keith Cronin; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solmetric PVA-600
 
I am using it right now.  I really like it. It's great for storing records of 
array/module parameters. Helps with pinpointing trouble modules or strings. I 
have also used it to show customers what snow/dirt can do to a string. The same 
can be done with a meter of course.   Only works up to 20A so limited off-grid 
use.  
 
I started out using a laptop with it but have since switched to a tablet 
computer, it fits right in the front pocket and makes a nice little package. 
 
Jesse

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 29, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Keith Cronin  wrote:
Any wrenches using this tool?
> 
>If so, feedback?
> 
>http://www.solmetric.com/pva600.html
> 
>Bill- what is your take on its IV Curve measurement data?
> 
>Perhaps its been a while, but I recall your tested was in the $20k cost zone?
> 
>This seems like a reasonable tool to have and all of the benefits of 
>commissioning plus being able to quickly identify challenges.
> 
>It also seems to provide a glimpse into the future of mod manu's products and 
>their efficacy over time.
> 
>Aloha,
>Keith
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV testing and turn-on /was mechanical vs. electronic kwh meter

[Keith Cronin]

Out here, we usually need to wait, as many meters have been swapped for digital 
flavored ones.

So, test system and turn off, so client doesn't get a cumulative bill for what 
they normally use, plus the pv.
 
Aloha,


Keith



From: Kirk Herander 
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 8:21 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing and turn-on /was mechanical vs. electronic 
kwh meter


Another issue I have locally is the utility telling me “you can turn it on to 
test it, but you can’t leave it on until inspected and the meter is changed 
out”. That is the extent of their policy. Nothing in writing, which is what I 
am pushing for. What do other utils nationwide have? Formal maximum turn-on / 
test / turn-off time periods before inspection? In writing? Or seat of the 
pants?
 
Kirk Herander
VT Solar, LLC
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Out of Warranty Inverter Replacements

[Keith Cronin]

Mark

My sense is we will all see more and more of this, given in CA and other 
pioneering states, there will be orphaned systems looking for TLC.

The micro inverter scene helps, as it gives Analytics and the other benefit is 
the client doesn't loose their whole system or learn about it after a month or 
more of high utility bills.

Yes, rewiring can be cumbersome, but the value of granular information will 
help our industry and support the long term cause. I can only imagine how many 
solar panels are out there, basking in the sun, doing nothing, like sitting in 
a showroom.

Creating a slush account for clients or a maintenance program is another 
solution. Things break/fail and that should be baked into the minds of the 
consumer.

Just wrapped up a Satcon 75kW (made in China) on about 66kW system- encouraged 
the client to use smart combiners and string level monitoring- they declined. 
They said cost was a factor. When I mentioned that they are essentially going 
to pay about a 1/3, after fed, state and depreciation expenses, it still wasn't 
something they were interested in. Here, the system makes over $2k a month in 
electricity and simple payback of less that 5 years, but they still didn't want 
to invest in the "absent employee" to "watch" the system. Seemed like a good 
investment to me, over the life of the system for a host of reasons. I 
analogized it to driving your car without a speedometer and gas gauge. Most 
would not, but some want to guess how fast they're going and how much fuel is 
in the tank.
 
Aloha,


Keith



From: Mark Frye 
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 7:03 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Out of Warranty Inverter Replacements


Out of Warranty Inverter Replacements 
Folks, 
Yesterday I took a trip through my service area and initated 3 inverter 
replacement actions: 
- A 6 year old Sunnyboy 1100W, 5 year warranty expired, $360 for a refurbished 
unit w/ 1 year warranty, new replacement not available
- A 2 year old Fronius IG4000 refurbished, sent as warranty replacement for 
unit failed at 4 years under 5 year warranty, now out of warranty, est. $ 600 
to refurbish with 1 year warranty
- A 4 year old Fronius IG3000, under 10 year warranty, warranty replacement and 
service fee provided by Fronius 
I have to decide, what is best for my out of warranty customers: 
- Buy the refurbished units w/ 1 year warranty 
- Buy new replacement units with 10 or 20 year warrranties 
- Buy entirely new equipment such as Enphase or SolarEdge 
What are other folks experiencing as we move well past the 5 year warranty 
horizon for many of our earlier customers? 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Out of Warranty Inverter Replacements

[Keith Cronin]

Perhaps as an add on value-relationship building component for your businesses, 
go introduce your clients, new and existing to The Energy Detective-
http://www.theenergydetective.com/ted-5002-g


At the very least, you can help them, help you, monitor what they have and 
discern between whether their system is optimized and if not, the remedy.

For folks in the industry, they have pricing below MSRP.

Relatively simple device and you can monitor the inverter(s) and the home load 
to get a comparative.

They are working on the next gen of their product to be able to get granular on 
every load in the home, but this will be a boat load of CT's and MTU's, but I 
believe this will allow us all to identify phantom loads and help close the gap 
on maintenance and often expensive service calls for folks that are grid 
connected.

Keith



From: Mark Frye 
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Out of Warranty Inverter Replacements


Out of Warranty Inverter Replacements 
Ray,
 
Here are the nameplate module rating vs nameplate inverter 
rating:
 
- 24 x 175 W = 4,200 W : IG4000 = 4,000 W : 105 
%
- 18 x 175 W = 3,150 W : IG3000 = 2,700 W : 117 
%
- 8 x 175 W = 1,400 W : SB1100 = 1,100 W : 127 % (sub-optimal 
orientation limits peak power levels)
 
I think it is fair to say that amps=heat=component aging. The 
question is to what extent can the installer rely on the representations 
made by manufactures with respect to their ratings and product 
life?
 
For instance, the 24 module system above lands well within the 
Fronius specifications for max DC power and is "Good" based on their online 
configuration tool, and also well in line the the SMA white paper of many years 
ago suggesting a 120% mod/inv ratio as optimal.
 
And yet, the first unit failed in 4 years and the refurb 
failed in 2 year.
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 
95959 
(530) 
401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com  
 



 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray 
Walters
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:26 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Out of Warranty Inverter 
Replacements

Hi Mark;

In cases like that, I let the customer decide. My job 
is to present them with two or three streamlined options and let them 
decide.
It seems it comes down to cost vs continued warranty (and possible 
expandability?). Financial decisions ultimately need to be made by the people 
paying the bill.
From a technical perspective, I don't ever present an option 
that I wouldn't be comfortable installing, and in the end everyone's happy. 
(hopefully)

Just curious; what are the array sizes relative to the 
inverter rating? I always wondered if inverters that were run at or over their 
rating didn't last as long as inverters that were run well below their rating. 
(just my stupid assumption that: more amps = more heat = less 
reliability)

Ray


On 8/19/2011 11:03 AM, Mark Frye wrote: 
Folks, 
>Yesterday I took a trip through my service area and  initated 3 inverter 
>replacement actions: 
>- A 6 year old Sunnyboy 1100W, 5 year warranty  expired, $360 for a 
>refurbished unit w/ 1 year warranty, new replacement not  available
>- A 2 year old Fronius IG4000 refurbished, sent as  warranty replacement for 
>unit failed at 4 years under 5 year warranty, now out  of warranty, est. $ 600 
>to refurbish with 1 year warranty
>- A 4 year old Fronius IG3000, under 10 year  warranty, warranty replacement 
>and service fee provided by Fronius 
>I have to decide, what is best for my out of  warranty customers: 
>- Buy the refurbished units w/ 1 year  warranty 
>- Buy new replacement units with  10 or 20 year warrranties 
>- Buy entirely  new equipment such as Enphase or SolarEdge 
>What are other folks experiencing as we move well  past the 5 year warranty 
>horizon for many of our earlier customers? 
>Mark Frye 
>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
>303 Redbud Way 
>Nevada  City,  CA 95959 
>(530) 401-8024 
>www.berkeleysolar.com  
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Enphase 215

[Keith Cronin]

Hey gang

With the 215's on the scene and the tech literature on their website, they 
state you can put up to 17 modules on a string.

Locally, I see folks throwing on 17-235 watt modules. Back of the napkin- 235 
watts/240 volts = .97 amps.

17 x .97 = 16.49 amps on the 20 amp circuit. Pushing the envelop of the 
circuit, per NEC and in situations of lower voltage, could tip the current 
higher, per module it seems or is the unit current limiting?

Wouldn't it seem plausible to ebb on 16 vs the 17? The 15 amp circuit to 20 amp 
circuit also is a change for the industry at large, as well as a few other 
changes.

As Solarworld is rolling out their 250 watt and others in the same zone, it 
seems there should/could be some caveats on the enphase literature to reflect 
this.
 
Thoughts, comments?


Keith___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215

[Keith Cronin]

David, et al

Yes, their literature states max output power of 215. Not sure how that is 
controlled, except for electronically. 

So this could be the shunt, so to speak and must take into consideration 
voltage to follow some algorithm to keep things humming along at that threshold.

Having said this- are we "throwing away" power then?

Keith



From: Dave Click 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215

The inverter should be current-limited on its output. The other Enphases 
have a higher output power than rated (199 @ 190, 219 @ 210, if memory 
serves from earlier list posts), so this may have a similar window.

215Wac max inverter output / 240V = 0.896
0.896 x 17 = 15.23A
15.23A x 1.25 < 20A so it's OK.
As long as the inverter output is actually 225W or less, you can fit 17 
on a 20A circuit.

As before, you'd have the inverter limiting output when the high-power 
modules are actually performing near or above STC. There will certainly 
be times during the year where the inverters are maxed out but those 
times will be a small portion. Enphase had some documentation on their 
site about this where they claimed it wasn't worth worrying about, but 
it's a site-specific question that the installer should answer.

On 2011/8/24 0:20, Keith Cronin wrote:
> Hey gang
>
> With the 215's on the scene and the tech literature on their website,
> they state you can put up to 17 modules on a string.
>
> Locally, I see folks throwing on 17-235 watt modules. Back of the
> napkin- 235 watts/240 volts = .97 amps.
>
> 17 x .97 = 16.49 amps on the 20 amp circuit. Pushing the envelop of the
> circuit, per NEC and in situations of lower voltage, could tip the
> current higher, per module it seems or is the unit current limiting?
>
> Wouldn't it seem plausible to ebb on 16 vs the 17? The 15 amp circuit to
> 20 amp circuit also is a change for the industry at large, as well as a
> few other changes.
>
> As Solarworld is rolling out their 250 watt and others in the same zone,
> it seems there should/could be some caveats on the enphase literature to
> reflect this.
> Thoughts, comments?
>
> Keith
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215

[Keith Cronin]

William

It seems like the product tries to be everything to all mod manu's, which is 
hard to do, at best.

Don't know if its a limitation in the electronics or design architecture. Could 
also be a strategic position to clamp down on what can be plugged into the 
circuit per NEC to limit their exposure to liability and keeping up with the 
myriad of modules hitting the market every month.

As you point out, its a delicate balance- insolation vs max harvest. Sites that 
are free and clear of any shading are penalized, so to speak.

I suspect they are aware of this design challenge and in the future, we will 
see matched inverters to the mod wattage output to not leave any watts on the 
table.

Within 24 months, we could even see things go a different direction- mods 
labeled AC rating first and DC second. If the inverter is built into the 
modules already, this make the language universal, like virtually all AC wiring 
in a home.
 

Keith



From: William Miller 
To: Keith Cronin ; RE-wrenches 

Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase 215


Keith:

Her's my guess:  Through the MPPT algorithm.  The processor
indicates near maximum output, the MPPT impedance reduces to throttle
back power production.  

This is pure speculation, but I'm stickin' with it (untold told
otherwise).

Throwing away power?  Yes.  If MPPT is not at maximum power
transfer at all times then your investment in PV is not earning it's full
return.  However, your inverter investment is not earning it's full
return during the many hours of less than optimum insolation.  These
are the two factors to balance in system design.

William


At 01:01 PM 8/24/2011, you wrote:

David, et al
>
>Yes, their literature states max output power of 215. Not sure how that
is controlled, except for electronically. 
>
>So this could be the shunt, so to speak and must take into consideration
voltage to follow some algorithm to keep things humming along at that
threshold.
>
>Having said this- are we "throwing away" power then?
>
>Keith___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Louis Valenta / interisland Solar

[Keith Cronin]

boB

Talked to Lou before he fell ill last Monday, as he said he was feeling out of 
sorts. I suggested he head to the doctor and he decided to go to the hospital. 
I visited him at the hospital on Wednesday and talked shop and about life in 
general and all of the strides we've all experienced over the years.

Lou was lucid in his thoughts, but the devastating results of the heart attack 
had him in the ICU on 24 hour watch.

He shared with me that he had hoped to be back to work by December, but knew he 
needed to get better first.

He was a good guy and was a giver of his time and would share his knowledge 
with anyone. He taught me alot over the last 14 years and will be missed out 
here, as he worked for the company for 25 years and was a fixture in the 
industry in Hawaii for many, many years and was fiercely loyal to anyone that 
wanted to go solar and share his views with you.

RIP :(
 
Aloha,


Keith



From: boB Gudgel 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 7:33 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Louis Valenta / interisland Solar




I am sad to report that Louis Valenta of interisland Solar in Hawaii has passed 
away in the last few days.

Louis had a heart attack about a week ago and this is probably
  related to that.

He was a very good person, friend and also  extremely knowledgeable in our 
industry.

We will really miss Louis.

boB

 
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[RE-wrenches] Suniva

[Keith Cronin]

Folks- any of you purchased any of these?

http://suniva.com/index.php

 
Aloha,


Keith___
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[RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules

[Keith Cronin]

Hi

Was wondering if any of you have installed bifacial modules and know what the % 
of light that comes through to a surface below the modules?

Looking for a canopy type of installation/ application and wondered if you have 
any #'s?

Thank you~
 
Aloha,


Keith___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules

[Keith Cronin]

Bill

Appreciate the feedback. One of the questions that I'm seeking to determine- 
how much light will filter through the spaces between the cells to the surface 
below?

Lets say for someone that wants to grow orchids- they need low light, as an 
example.

Wondering how much light is diffused through the panels to be able to do things 
like grow orchids and or have filtered light to work?

As an example: Do any of you have irradiance measurements on any carports that 
have done bifacials and determined how many watts sq m are below?

Keith



From: Bill Brooks 
To: 'Keith Cronin' ; 'RE-wrenches' 

Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules


Keith,
 
This is easy to test. Simple take an irradiance sensor, turn it upside-down and 
test the irradiance on the bottom surface of any PV array. It will vary greatly 
based on exposure to reflected light and so on, but it will rarely be above 100 
W/m^2. 10% improvement is an absolute maximum for any bifacial technology, and 
that is on the high side. Any claims above 10% are ignoring the physics of 
sunlight, reflectance of typical materials, and PV.
 
Nothing wrong with bi-facials. They are beautiful to look at. I would buy them 
based on aesthetics, not on performance.
 
Bill.
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 1:04 PM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules
 
Hi
 
Was wondering if any of you have installed bifacial modules and know what the % 
of light that comes through to a surface below the modules?
 
Looking for a canopy type of installation/ application and wondered if you have 
any #'s?
 
Thank you~
 
Aloha,
Keith___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules

[Keith Cronin]

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

Thinking that the manu's can space cells accordingly on the surface of the 
glass and create whatever % light the end user wants to seep through.

The % of light must slide between 5-15%, depending on manu's specs. 
Architecture can meet solar and increase the applicability of the products.

Perhaps someday, they can make the cells see-through (or almost), like 
glass...? Now that opens up possibilities! 
 
Aloha,


Keith



From: Phil Undercuffler 
To: Keith Cronin ; RE-wrenches 

Cc: Bill Brooks 
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules


We've got an array of Silicon Energy modules "out back," and in the interests 
of scientific discovery and procrastinating from what I really am supposed to 
be doing, Kelly, Seth and I just ran a few experiments to see if we can 
quantify the amount of irradiation that makes it through the array.

Using a Kyocera module as our reference, we measured ISC with the module in the 
plane of the array, then moved the module to the same orientation but 
approximately 12 feet behind and in the shade of the SE array, and again 
measured ISC.  Sun conditions were light wispy clouds, guesstimated 800 W/M2 
(pretty darned good for Arlington WA this time o' year), 10:30 local time.  We 
measured 5.9A ISC in front of the array, and 610 milliamps when in the shade 
the array, leading us to say that just over 10% of the available sun will make 
it to your orchids.

It should be noted that there is a opaque backing behind each SE cell, so the 
only light that makes it through is through the intercell gaps.  I've used 
Sanyo doubles before, and in those modules the cells are slightly translucent, 
so the sun is somewhat visible through the body of the cell itself as well -- 
sort of like looking through very dark sunglasses.  In either case, the 
illumination on objects behind the array is a dappled, dynamic light.  As Bill 
says, it's pretty cool from an aesthetic point of view.  My personal .02 is 
that there is no finer place to put an array than a shade structure using clear 
modules.  It keeps everything off the roof, gives shade and makes for a premium 
installation option.

Phil
---
"When we learn how to store electricity, we will cease being apes ourselves; 
until then we are tailless orangutans. You see, we should utilize natural 
forces and thus get all of our power. Sunshine is a form of energy, and the 
winds and the tides are manifestations of energy.  Do we use them? Oh, no! We 
burn up wood and coal, as renters burn up the front fence for fuel. We live 
like squatters, not as if we owned the property.  

There must surely come a time when heat and power will be stored in unlimited 
quantities in every community, all gathered by natural forces."
-- Thomas Edison --



On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Keith Cronin  wrote:

Bill
>
>
>Appreciate the feedback. One of the questions that I'm seeking to determine- 
>how much light will filter through the spaces between the cells to the surface 
>below?
>
>
>Lets say for someone that wants to grow orchids- they need low light, as an 
>example.
>
>
>Wondering how much light is diffused through the panels to be able to do 
>things like grow orchids and or have filtered light to work?
>
>
>As an example: Do any of you have irradiance measurements on any carports that 
>have done bifacials and determined how many watts sq m are below?
>
>
>Keith
>
>
>
>From: Bill Brooks 
>To: 'Keith Cronin' ; 'RE-wrenches' 
>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 11:44 AM
>Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules
>
>
>
>Keith,
> 
>This is easy to test. Simple take an irradiance sensor, turn it upside-down 
>and test the irradiance on the bottom surface of any PV array. It will vary 
>greatly based on exposure to reflected light and so on, but it will rarely be 
>above 100 W/m^2. 10% improvement is an absolute maximum for any bifacial 
>technology, and that is on the high side. Any claims above 10% are ignoring 
>the physics of sunlight, reflectance of typical materials, and PV.
> 
>Nothing wrong with bi-facials. They are beautiful to look at. I would buy them 
>based on aesthetics, not on performance.
> 
>Bill.
> 
>From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
>Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 1:04 PM
>To: RE-Wrenches
>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial modules
> 
>Hi
> 
>Was wondering if any of you have installed bifacial modules and know what the 
>% of light that comes through to a surface below the modules?
> 
>Looking for a canopy type of installation/ application and w

[RE-wrenches] To Megger or not to Megger

[Keith Cronin]

Hi

I was wondering, by a show of hands, how many of you megger every project?

Do you have a cut off- like if it is "x" sized system, you will or decide to 
opt out of performing this task?



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Housekeeping stuff

[Keith Cronin]

Greg, etal

Materials aside, this is why I have be advocating to follow your thoughts a bit 
further.
Knowing that HD (or equal) will eventually sell all (or most) of the products 
we offer within the next 5 years, why not focus on making profit dollars on 
labor?
It is interesting to me that we as an industry, will grouse about pricing of 
materials as a way to make extra money (or make it less transparent to the 
customer), but dismiss the idea of charging more for labor, as the "going rate 
trap", we set for ourselves. Demystify this for the consumer. If they want to 
see you around in the future to service their equipment you just installed, 
there is a genuine connection to them and they don't want to be left behind for 
service or repairing the equipment.

Why not charge the right price for labor, as you evaluated we will have less 
margins contributing from materials. Start now and avoid the margin compression 
later.
I always wonder how many wrenches are prepared for anything other that the next 
install- no offense- what I am referring to is retirement and paying our people 
well to name a few.

How about sending our children to better schools and soccer camp? How about 
taking care of our significant others for all of their dedication and support 
all of the years watching us have expensive, time consuming "hobbies", like 
installing solar. I'm not suggesting stopping the pro bono work, but look to 
the field we have chosen and be "in business". Profit is not a dirty word, but 
being out of business or being on the "system" for support could fair worse 
without any planning. There is also the impending growth in our field, which 
will mean more competition, so lets take the medicine now and get more folks 
educated.

The collective public that is not in business, has not had the training in what 
it costs to keep the lights on every day or create a budget. It is patently 
clear to me, that we need this training, equally as much as understanding 690 
or 310.16 if we are to prosper and not just thrive.
This is evident in a CNN story last night- 
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/05/06/credit.cards/index.html

Clearly there is a gap and consumption outstrips the rational mind and it 
appears contagious. Burying our calculators in the sand will do little for the 
people we are responsible for.

Attached is a simple way to look at what you are currently doing and determine 
if you need to make adjustments. Sure, you can make $ on materials, but lets 
suggest for a moment all of our customers will be going to HD to buy the 
majority of the equipment or the level of transparency on material costs 
becomes Darwinian. 

If we are in the sustainability business, can't we also be financially 
sustainable and make it a tenet for our constituency?

If I have picqued your interest, contact me off list. I am, for the record, not 
suggesting any kind of antitrust price fixing, but deleveraging the misnomers.

Keith





From: "g...@remotepowerinc.com" 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2009 8:54:07 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Housekeeping stuff

Regarding discussing pricing on this publicly viewed list:

It's just unprofessional.  I never met a wholesaler or manufacturer that
wanted me to tell the public the wholesale price I was paying for their
products.

Also, telling the public your cost can only do you and your business harm.
Joe Public will figure - "why should I pay X% more for this product?" -
without considering that a good dealer/installer pays for licensing,
liability insurance, workers comp, good wages to get and keep good
employees, the cost of tuition, transportation, lodging and tuition for
employees, etc.

Joe Public does not know the difference between gross profit and net
profit, and NEVER will.

As small business persons we are all at a disadvantage to the big box
stores who inevitably will sell everything.  I think by allowing prices to
be discussed publicly pm this list, we're shooting ourselves in the foot -
making our own long term survival harder.

It seems like this all should be common knowledge to any professional in
any retail business.

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.


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What things really cost-Biz owner- 07MAY09.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [RE-wrenches] squirrel problems

[Keith Cronin]

How about modifying one of those electric cow fences? 





From: Mark Frye 
To: k...@vtsolar.com; RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:49:37 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] squirrel problems

 
Are to costs to repair this kind of damage generally 
covered by the owners home insurance policy?
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 
95959 
(530) 
401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com  
 



 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk 
Herander, VSE
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 10:20 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] squirrel 
problems


I just had to rewire an array 
because of squirrel damage. They chewed the insulation off of the use-2 on 
almost every panel within 2 inches of the j-box. This was discovered because 
the 
inverter GFI kept intermittently tripping, so one of the uninsulated positive 
leads must have shorted to the grounded array frame, verified by measurements 
and arcing.  At least the GFI did its job…... We found a massive nest 
underneath the array. And I just got another call from a customer with the same 
issue, although we don’t know yet if damage has happened. Both these arrays are 
mounted on Unirac Solarmount, parallel to and stood off from the roof about 6 
inches. I’m thinking of skirting the perimeter of the array with a metal mesh 
of 
some sort. Any other ideas? Thanks. Most likely they will come back if I do 
nothing.
 
Kirk 
Herander
VermontSolar 
Engineering
802.863.1202
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar 
Installer
NYSERDA-eligible 
Installer
VT Solar Incentive Program 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] sales to-date

[Keith Cronin]

Hi 

While I don't dismiss sales from year to year as one of the metrics for gauging 
the state of things, perhaps in lieu of the top number, could we focus on the 
bottom number?
Could we also see where these sales are coming from- referrals from existing 
loyal fans or hard earned marketing dollars?
What are your customer acquisition costs?- what did it take in "profit" dollars 
to find and install your last system?

On the "sizable" project concept (no offense John)- one of the often overlooked 
KPI's- can we carry the financial water for the duration of the project, when 
we are juggling multiple 50kW opportunities? 

Cash flow on these large projects is another relevant metric as materials will 
consume over 70% of the projects costseven with 50% down, you can still be 
behind the 8 ball.





From: "cvso...@aol.com" 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:24:15 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sales to-date

Marco,
  We would have been slightly below last year but landed our first
sizable commercial job (50 kw) so now we are way above last year,
 
John
Blittersdorf
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Central Vermont Solar
& Wind, LLC
104 River Street
Rutland, VT
05701

802-747-0577
802-773-0924 fax
802-770-8625 cell
www.cvsolar.com




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar cells and modules and pricing

[Keith Cronin]

PV enthusiasts- 

Perhaps a fresh perspective on these products deserves some attention after the 
last few thoughts shared by Bill & Joel, who are industry respected stalwarts 
that deserve and receive alot of respect from me and the rest of us.
As some of us grew up when we thought Japanese types of products- from toys to 
cars where less durable, they eventually created fantastic products to be the 
envy of the world. Just look at most electronic gadgets and cars 10 years ago 
to draw some distinctions.
A new dawn has arrived, which parallels this analogy. The Chinese have been 
able to import the technology and systems to develop world class modules. using 
alot of the pick and place robots the other contenders are using. SunPower 
makes the lions share of their products in the Philippines and I recall the 
building is so large and long, that you can see the curvature of the earth.
Just as the computer revolution started in the US, most of the parts and 
silicon platforms have been made in Asia. Sure it can take time to polish the 
products, but this is inevitable. China will continue to thrive and deliver 
competitive products that will have quality attributes for years to come as 
their population gets increased education and awareness of what the world solar 
stage demands- inexpensive modules.

The PVUSA facility was circa 1986 and sold to David for a buck in 1997. Alot of 
innovation and understanding came from those formative years and we as an 
industry are all grateful. As Joel points out, if you are going with these 
types of products, "check in" with your clients, as this is one of the ways to 
monitor any signs of degradation. Yes, a Barrons report shared with me says 
many of the similar things about our Chinese manus' thats hard to ignore: 


June 3, 2009, 1:53 pm
China Solar Vendors Slash Module Prices, Analyst Says
Posted by Eric Savitz 
Chinese solar vendors are offering modules for prices far below what most 
investors likely suspect, according to Hapoalim Securities analyst 
Gordon Johnson.
In a research note today, Johnson asserts that some of his “most trusted 
industry contacts” say that companies like Yingli (YGE), Suntech (STP) and 
Trina Solar (TSL) are offering modules for sale at 
$1.70-$1.80/watt, or 1.21-1.28 Euros/watt. He notes that at the recent 
Intersolar conference, the talk was that solar modules were 
priced in the 1.60-1.70 Euros/watt range.
Johnson contends that U.S. investors may be underestimating the ability of 
Chinese solar module companies to significantly lower their non-silicon costs - 
specifically, by cutting wages. He writes that “we are hearing that Chinese 
solar module factory workers are willing to work for little-to-no-pay” in order 
to improve their company’s competitiveness and “as a matter of national pride.” 
According to Johnson, volumes available at the lower price levels is 
effectively 
unlimited.
Johnson, who already had been bearish on the sector, notes that there are 1.5 
GW of solar module inventory in the channel, and that Spain, which in 2008 
accounted for nearly 50% of global module consumption, “has basically gone to 
zero.” His view: “At the risk of stating the obvious, this does not bode well 
for U.S./European solar module vendors given the commodity underpinnings which 
define this space,” he writes. “Assuming these prices stock, we believe solar 
industry fundamentals are in bigger trouble than we expected this year.”
Johnson specifically advises taking short positions in SunPower (SPWRA), 
Q-Cells (QCE.DE), First Solar (FSLR) and SolarWorld (SWV.DE).

So- where does this leave us?

Clearly this trend is going to continue and perhaps look at it another way. If 
mod pricing will continue to decline over the next 10 years and infinity and 
there are a few companies out there who will fail with their products, we will 
have a declining cost basis for our client base to purchase new products at 
perhaps a cost delta that is palatable and I envision below dirty power rates. 
Will it be the $1 watt? This would be a huge milestone and we could be there 
with growth and innovation leading the race. Increased cell efficiencies with a 
new mix of products yet to be birthed..


I am not trying to justify bad manufacturers from pumping out poor products, 
but GM did it for quite a few years in the race to compete and now we own (as a 
country or the treasury) 60% of the company, which could also be worthless 
depending upon the tempo of our economy.

The irony is everywhere. We used to be dissapointed that the Chinese government 
had their hands in their private industries and where constantly meddling, but 
we are not doing the same- autos, banking and insurance to name a few.

In light of this, even looking at a companies finacials, and peering into the 
Chinese manus balance sheets could also be unclear, again, as the Barrons 
reports suggests this might be not telling the whole story.


So, the cost per watt conversation is the one

Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar cells and modules and pricing

[Keith Cronin]

Yes Don, thanks for the added "h"





From: "i...@aol.com" 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 7:39:39 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar cells and modules and pricing

In a message dated 6/7/2009 1:45:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
electrich...@yahoo.com writes:
If we buy power from the utility per kW, my vision is some day we can 
orchestrate the same. This will greatly improve our field of interest and 
everyone benefits when performace meets the expectation, regardless of system 
size
Keith, you mean kwh, yes?
 
Don



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar cells and modules and pricing

[Keith Cronin]

Joel

Chinese quality will improve for sure and trust is something we ought to get 
used to. The Chinese own more US Treasuries than anyone breathing on this 
globe, so we are married at the wallet. If our government can have this type of 
relationship, it is only going to "grow" as time moves forward. I want to more 
call it a shotgun wedding of sorts- we both need each other and our parents 
(government) have decided it is going to be forever.

Not to digress down an economics discussion, but their sovereign fund is deeply 
embedded in our dollars, even though the yuan has gained more in value over the 
last 4-5 years, hurting their investment in "US". Our foreign deficit to them 
will continue, as our national debt was 41% of the economy last year.now 
this is unsustainable...we are over leveraged as a society as a 
whole.

I wonder who the dictators are anymore?





From: Joel Davidson 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 3:05:48 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar cells and modules and pricing

  
Chinese quality will improve and price is 
important, but I think that doing business with people who 
you trust and respect comes first. Some of you remember Bill Lamb. The 
Wm. Lamb Company was the world's first PV distributorship. Bill helped a 
lot of us get started in the business. I learned a lot about PV and 
business in general working for Bill. Here's a Bill Lamb true 
story. Before moving to Camarillo, Arco Solar was in 
Chatsworth about 16 miles from the Wm. Lamb Company so Arco referred a 
lot of customers to us. In 1983 or 1984, Arco 
sent three Arab gentlemen to us. They selected about $50,000 
in solar modules and other equipment which was a big sale in those 
days. One of the men pulled out cash and told Bill that 
they plan to buy a lot more solar equipment and will 
buy it all from him if he did not sell to Israel. Bill's reaction 
was immediate. It was the only time I ever saw him get angry. He 
told the men to go to hell and that he would never sell anything 
to them. Then he walked out the building, got in his car, and drove 
away leaving me with the three shocked men. They asked me 
what to do. I told them that Bill was the boss and had the 
final word so they left without buying anything. A few hours 
later, Bill returned and I asked him if he refused to sell to the Arabs 
because they were boycotting Israel. Bill said, "It's not just about 
Israel. I refuse to do business with dictators."
Joel Davidson
- Original Message - 
From: Keith  Cronin 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar  cells and modules and pricing

PV enthusiasts- 

Perhaps a fresh perspective on these products  deserves some attention after 
the last few thoughts shared by Bill & Joel,  who are industry respected 
stalwarts that deserve and receive alot of respect  from me and the rest of us.
As some of us grew up when we thought Japanese  types of products- from toys to 
cars where less durable, they eventually  created fantastic products to be the 
envy of the world. Just look at most  electronic gadgets and cars 10 years ago 
to draw some distinctions.
A new  dawn has arrived, which parallels this analogy. The Chinese have been 
able to  import the technology and systems to develop world class modules. 
using alot  of the pick and place robots the other contenders are using. 
SunPower makes  the lions share of their products in the Philippines and I 
recall the building  is so large and long, that you can see the curvature of 
the earth.
Just as  the computer revolution started in the US, most of the parts and 
silicon  platforms have been made in Asia. Sure it can take time to polish the  
products, but this is inevitable. China will continue to thrive and deliver  
competitive products that will have quality attributes for years to come as  
their population gets increased education and awareness of what the world  
solar stage demands- inexpensive modules.

The PVUSA facility was circa  1986 and sold to David for a buck in 1997. Alot 
of innovation and  understanding came from those formative years and we as an 
industry are all  grateful. As Joel points out, if you are going with these 
types of products,  "check in" with your clients, as this is one of the ways to 
monitor any signs  of degradation. Yes, a Barrons report shared with me says 
many of the similar  things about our Chinese manus' thats hard to ignore: 


June 3, 2009, 1:53 pm
China Solar Vendors Slash Module Prices, Analyst 
Says
Posted by Eric Savitz 
Chinese solar vendors are offering modules for prices far below what most  
investors likely suspect, according to Hapoalim Securities analyst Gordon  
Johnson.
In a research note today, Johnson asserts that some of his “most trusted  
industry contacts” say that companies like Yingli (YGE), Suntech

Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar cells and modules and pricing

[Keith Cronin]

Andy, et al

Good questions. The humanitarian one first. If we use a computer or cell phone, 
we are probably contributing to the problem daily as these devices are made 
there. The list of items we manu there is growing that we all seem to use in 
our daily existence. This is a difficult and personal values decision for every 
person to decide.

The ugly word- globalization will be hard to remove from our lexicon, as we are 
all inextricably connected in some direct or indirect way. It is like the 6 
degrees of Kevin Bacon, but perhaps now 5. Live in the Hawaiian village and it 
is perhaps 1 degree.

On the economics equation- sure vote with your wallet to improve the balance of 
payments and perhaps your client base is willing to pay a premium for the made 
is usa solar panels, for example. Perhaps offering the client a choice deserves 
their attention and let them choose. Having the trade imbalance conversation 
might encourage them to choose differently, but this is a good topic for 
discussion. Whether or not we "pay" for the modules or put them on "credit" for 
x amount of months with interest (or if we are being offered interest free 
loans) until sold/installed etc. is about the relationship you develop with 
your counterpart. It is the "terms" that make the difference. A protectionism 
type of only buy from the usa will hurt our economy and the steel industry 
wants to do something similar, but its success is questionable. 

There are no clear answers to our sophisticated global economy, and as Adam 
Smith postulated in 1776, "the free market, while appearing chaotic and 
unrestrained, is actually guided to prodice the right amount and variety of 
goods by a so called "invisible hand"."

My sense is the hand is not invisible anymore...






From: Antony Tersol 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 9:09:15 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar cells and modules and pricing

So if we should choose to ignore the humanitarian issues, and just
approach it from a financial sense, how does sourcing Chinese modules
improve our balance of payments?



Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:13:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Keith Cronin 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Chinese solar cells and modules and pricing
To: RE-wrenches 
Message-ID: <873930.98326...@web46108.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Joel

Chinese quality will improve for sure and trust is something we ought
to get used to. The Chinese own more US Treasuries than anyone
breathing on this globe, so we are married at the wallet. If our
government can have this type of relationship, it is only going to
"grow" as time moves forward. I want to more call it a shotgun wedding
of sorts- we both need each other and our parents (government) have
decided it is going to be forever.

Not to digress down an economics discussion, but their sovereign fund
is deeply embedded in our dollars, even though the yuan has gained
more in value over the last 4-5 years, hurting their investment in
"US". Our foreign deficit to them will continue, as our national debt
was 41% of the economy last year.now this is
unsustainable...we are over leveraged as a society as a
whole.

I wonder who the dictators are anymore?
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[RE-wrenches] 690.47

[Keith Cronin]

Hello

A discussion came up today about 690.47(C)(1)+(2) in regards to using the 
Enphase products and the applicability of needing a separate ground rod for the 
DC?

Anyone get any feedback from their colleagues or inspectors regarding this and 
how they approached this?

The discussion also swirled around them both being bonded regardless, so the 
question of necessity was in question.

Thanks

Keith
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 690.47

[Keith Cronin]

Marv

Couple your comments with a delay in adoption of certain years of the code, by 
jurisdiction. For example, the city and county of Honolulu have yet to adopt 
the '08 code and are still working on '05. This can influence the 
interpretation of 690.64B for the residential-commercial 120%-100% situation 
that is cleared up in the '08 code.
There are other islands in this tropical archipelago that are on the '02 code, 
so more distinctions need to be made and clarified for these folks. We also 
don't have congruency by island from a utility perspective as well in regard to 
interconnection protocols and we are already up against an even more pressing 
situation- Grid Access! The utilities feeders are getting "full" on the 
neighbor islands and they are starting to require interconnection studies to 
determine whether or not you can even connect to the grid...this will get 
more pronounced as time marches on, but who would have thought that a day like 
this would comeyou are the last person on the street to make the switch to 
clean power, only to be told, no.unless you can fork over thousands of $ to 
study the infrastructure..

It seems here, even on this island, there are inspectors that are unclear 
themselves, as to how to approach a host of topics, and grounding is one of 
them.





From: Marv Dargatz 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 1:15:57 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 690.47

Keith,

The whole grounding issue has been very contentious, confounding, and
confusing.  The introduction of the changes with the 2008 NEC seems to
have complicated things further.

Also, just a general comment; in general (there will be exceptions for
larger systems, depending on electrical configuration), this code
section applies equally to all PV inverters.  There should be no
difference with an Enphase installation and a traditional string
installation.

What version of code are you referencing? 
2005 and 2008 differ slightly.  I'd like to get a consensus on all of
these grounding issues.  It's too late for the 2011 code, but maybe we
can clear this up with the 2014 code.

BTW, the explanatory note after paragraph 690.47(C)(8) in the 2008
handbook offers some clarification.

I'm anxious to get John W. and Bill B.'s opinion on this.
 
See Ya!

Marv
Enphase Energy
707 763-4784 x7016

Keith Cronin wrote: 
Hello

A discussion came up today about 690.47(C)(1)+(2) in regards to using
the Enphase products and the applicability of needing a separate ground
rod for the DC?

Anyone get any feedback from their colleagues or inspectors regarding
this and how they approached this?

The discussion also swirled around them both being bonded regardless,
so the question of necessity was in question.

Thanks

Keith




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[RE-wrenches] Ground Mount

[Keith Cronin]

Hi 
I have a solar friend who is looking for some feedback on cost per footing for 
a small residential ground mount system in Northern CA. Do any of you have a 
cost estimate/assumption for each sonotube and concrete mix? What have been the 
general requirements for diameter and depth of the footings?
Does anyone have a concrete person they know up in the Santa Rosa area?
Thanks

Keith
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Roof Loading request for help

[Keith Cronin]

Allan

Is this for residential, or residential and commercial?

Here, commercial systems are generally subjected to structural and electrical 
PE review, while residential is not. Or, should I say small scale residential, 
under 10kW.

Keith





From: Allan Sindelar 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 2:26:00 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof Loading request for help

 
Wrenches,
We are currently facing a city permitting bureaucracy that
has recently discovered solar – that is, suddenly each department in the 
permitting
and plan review departments is coming up with standards for PV systems. Some of
the standards, of course, make no sense. 
 
PV systems typically add about three pounds per square foot
to the loading on a roof. We are facing a city requirement for structural
engineering work for standard roof attachment if the mounting
approach is to make penetrations into the roof structure. This is a typical
requirement that will only add considerable cost to each PV system, and we’re
looking to have our ammunition to fight this well stocked in advance. 
Specifically,
are building authorities in other jurisdictions requiring structural
engineering work for this type of roof attachment?
 
Thanks 
Allan
 
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe , New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large module orders - COD??

[Keith Cronin]

Jeff

A few other approaches:

1. Joint check with 2 signatures from the bank
2. Lien release contingent upon payment to vendor
3. Contract with specific milestones outlining payment terms
4. Bridge loan from bank for 1 month- small interest to pay for the certainty
5. Collateral- your home or the clients property
6. Vendor willing to work with you on perhaps a promissory note, or through 
someone or a lending institution
7. Rich friend who trusts you until they arrive at the site and the wait time 
for the check to clear

As Bob stated, when you step into larger projects, it is another world.

Cash flow is king, as 80% of the larger projects are all materialsmanaging 
this can be challenging, but there is always a way with willing participants.

BTW: has anyone heard that EGIA is offer financing for PV systems ? This could 
be another channel for you Jeff

Ciao

Keith





From: Bob-O Schultze 
To: jry...@netscape.com; RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 6:05:04 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large module orders - COD??

Jeff,
Welcome to the wonderful world of big business in 2009.
Most states allow a contractor to ask for a reasonable deposit upon executing a 
contract. Often it's about 10%. On an order that size, I'd get whatever the law 
would allow upfront and COD for the big ticket items. It's reasonable to leave 
yourself on the hook for your labor and the smaller stuff until the job is 
completed so long as your contract clearly states a short final payment 
timeframe and as much interest and late payment fees as your state will allow 
if they miss it. Almost all clients will accept that a contractor needs some 
good faith money and go for that. Offer the same deal of 10% upfront to your PV 
supplier and they'll likely say, "And where did you say you would like these 
shipped?" Doesn't alleviate the problem of having to have good cash reserves or 
good credit, but it will help.
If either the client or the distributor doesn't get it, do business elsewhere. 
It's harsh and a bitch to have to walk away from a good job that you've put a 
lot of energy into, but it seems unwise (at least in the present economy) to 
extend yourself any further than that.
Good Luck, Bob-O


On Jul 6, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Jeff Yago wrote:

Most of our projects do not require ordering and stocking large quantities of 
solar modules, so we usually order in one pallet at a time quantities since 
most of our installs are in the 4 to 6 kW size range.However, we have a 
firm purchase order for over $100,000 worth of Solar World 175 modules, but the 
client will not pay anything until the modules have been shipped and received 
in good condition.  I have been able to get their agreement to pay COD, but 
have not found any supplier who handles Solar World 175's and is willing to 
fill this large order without payment in full at time of shipment.

If we cannot make this work, I will be forced to go back through the process of 
getting another module approved for this installation and find a supplier 
willing to make this work using a different module brand, but I hate to go 
through all this after getting the SolarWorld 175's approvied by both the 
architect and client.  They are ready to purchase these today.

How do you handle these larger special orders without having to have a $100,000 
line of credit with each material supplier?

Thanks,

Jeff Yago


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[RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education

[Keith Cronin]

Hi gang

I was wondering, what percentage do you believe represents the ratio of 
classroom training to field training for PV and what percentage you believe 
should be performed by licensed electricians vs what is deemed mechanical work?

Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom- electrician
___% field- electrician

Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom- mechanical
___% field- mechanical

CommercialGrid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom-electrician
___% field-electrician

CommercialGrid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom-mechanical
___% field-mechanical

Residential GT with batteries
% classroom-electrician
% field-electrician

Residential GT with batteries
% classroom-mechanical
% field-mechanical

Any takers on the off grid market percentages?

Commercial w/ batteries is utility scale and I don't think it can be quantified 
today as the projects are generally design build and perhaps hard to put an 
exact # on these.

Thanks

Keith
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education

[Keith Cronin]

nd 
installing PV systems is a continuous learning experience. We 
are practitioners because, like doctors, we practice our trade, 
expand our knowledge, and hone our skills. I 
tell people who wants to get in the PV business to put a PV system 
on their own home. People who tell me 
that they want to sell PV but can not go solar personally for 
whatever reason have less credibility. They get less respect 
from prospective customers who use the same reasons or excuses for not 
going solar. They either don't last long in the business or are in it only 
for the money. Granted, there are less operational nuances to a batteryless, 
grid-tied PV system than a battery-based system or wind or water generator, 
but living with your work is essential. It makes you keenly aware of unique 
subtleties and helps you better understand your customers concerns.
 
Joel Davidson
- Original Message - 
>From: R. Walters 
>To: RE-wrenches 
>Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:05 
>  AM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar 
>  Installers Education
>
>
>
>
>For Off grid, no one should even attempt being a designer/ installer 
>  without living for a full year on their own off grid system. 
>GT w/ batteries, you need off grid smarts and understand GT.
>Training newbies, I can't imagine them being able to do anything other 
>  than schlep modules/ do grunt work for a couple of years.
>I could see a licensed electrician with a year of full time training 
>  being able to do GT w/o batteries.
>Most of the market and all the growth is in the GT w/o batteries, so I 
>  think your training should concentrate there.
>I've taught a semester long PV class, and all I was able to do was create 
>  well educated consumers.
>
>
>R. Walters
>Solarray.com
>NABCEP # 04170442
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:
>
>Hi gang
>>
>>I was wondering, what percentage do you believe 
>>represents the ratio of classroom training to field training for PV and 
>> what 
>>percentage you believe should be performed by licensed electricians vs 
>> what 
>>is deemed mechanical work?
>>
>>Residential Grid Tie w/out 
>>batteries
>>___% classroom- electrician
>>___% field- 
>>electrician
>>
>>Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
>>___% classroom- 
>>mechanical
>>___% field- mechanical
>>
>>Commercial Grid Tie w/out 
>>batteries
>>___% classroom-electrician
>>___% 
>>field-electrician
>>
>>Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
>>___% 
>>classroom-mechanical
>>___% field-mechanical
>>
>>Residential GT with 
>>batteries
>>% classroom-electrician
>>% 
>>field-electrician
>>
>>Residential GT with batteries
>>% 
>>classroom-mechanical
>>% field-mechanical
>>
>>Any takers on the off 
>>grid market percentages?
>>
>>Commercial w/ batteries is utility scale and 
>>I don't think it can be quantified today as the projects are generally 
>>design build and perhaps hard to put an exact # on 
>>these.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Keith
>>
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>>
>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Marketing your kaizen (was Solar Installers Education)

[Keith Cronin]

ssales.htm 
and http://www.smallbusinessnotes.com/operating/marketing/salesmktdiff.html
and http://marketing.about.com/cs/advertising/a/mrktingvssales.htm
and google difference between marketing and 
selling
 
Good luck.
 
Joel Davidson
 
- Original Message - 
>From: R. Walters 
>To: RE-wrenches 
>Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:03 
>AM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar 
>  Installers Education
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>The one 
>>commonality to all of this is really the passion to constant learning. 
>> The 
>>Japanese have a word- Kaizen- constant 
>>  improvement.
>>
>
>
>Excellent, thanks for the new word. Unfortunately, I'm just not seeing 
>  any of that passion in the new people flocking to this industry.
>
>Where it is peculiar to me, is to see us not being able to charge 
>>enough to take care of our families and co-workers (team mates) on the 
>> ship 
>>of life.
>>
>
>
>Now you've hit the sore spot for us: we've worked and studied hard, spent 
>  countless unpaid hours contributing to this list for our mutual Kaizen, only 
>  to see a growing market that is not necessarily valuing our experience. The 
>  question is how do we get across to the customer why they should pay more 
> for 
>  that experience and knowledge? How besides NABCEP, do we even demonstrate we 
>  have that knowledge?
>
>
>Mahalo,
>
>
>Ray
>
>Aloha
>>
>>Keith
>>
>>
>>
>>

 From: Joel Davidson 
>>To: RE-wrenches 
>>Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 5:50:24 
>>AM
>>Subject: Re: 
>>[RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
>>
>> >> 
>>I agree. I have DIY customers who know 
>>more about PV systems than a lot of so-called PV professionals. Designing 
>>and installing PV systems is a continuous learning 
>>experience. We are practitioners because, like doctors, 
>>we practice our trade, expand our knowledge, and 
>>hone our skills. I tell people who wants to get in the 
>>PV business to put a PV system on their own 
>>home. People who tell me that they want to sell PV 
>>but can not go solar personally for whatever reason have less 
>>credibility. They get less respect from prospective customers who 
>>use the same reasons or excuses for not going solar. They either 
>>don't last long in the business or are in it only for the money. Granted, 
>>there are less operational nuances to a batteryless, grid-tied PV system 
>>than a battery-based system or wind or water generator, but living with 
>>your work is essential. It makes you keenly aware of unique subtleties 
>>and helps you better understand your customers concerns.
>> 
>>Joel Davidson
>>- 
>>>  Original Message - 
>>>From: R. 
>>>  Walters 
>>>To: RE-wrenches 
>>>Sent: >>>  Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:05 AM
>>>Subject: >>>  Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>For Off grid, no one should even attempt being a designer/ installer 
>>>  without living for a full year on their own off grid system. 
>>>GT w/ batteries, you need off grid smarts and understand GT.
>>>Training newbies, I can't imagine them being able to do anything 
>>>  other than schlep modules/ do grunt work for a couple of years.
>>>I could see a licensed electrician with a year of full time training 
>>>  being able to do GT w/o batteries.
>>>Most of the market and all the growth is in the GT w/o batteries, so 
>>>  I think your training should concentrate there.
>>>I've taught a semester long PV class, and all I was able to do was 
>>>  create well educated consumers.
>>>
>>>
>>>R. Walters
>>>Solarray.com
>>>NABCEP # 04170442
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:
>>>
>>>Hi gang
>>>>
>>>>I was wondering, what percentage do you believe 
>>>>represents the ratio of classroom training to field training for PV 
>>>> and 
>>>>what percentage you believe should be performed by licensed 
>>>> electricians 
>>>>vs what is deemed mechanical work?
>>>>
>>>>Residential Grid Tie w/out 
>>>>batteries
>>>>___% classroom- electrician
>>>>___% fi

[RE-wrenches] Wrench Transporation

[Keith Cronin]

http://www.cars.gov/

Just wanted to share this, as some folks could benefit from a trade in and 
sequester some carbon and save some fuel economy boost as well as re-market 
their image.

Politics aside, the intent has good merit.

About 2 weeks ago, these folks where here in Hawaii and we saw the film. I 
recall buying Joshua's book many years ago and he was on the bleeding edge of 
taking this concept mainstream.
It is a good movie, docu-drama about our insatiable appetite for the black gold.

http://thefuelfilm.com/

If you are considering a new wrench transportation option, the timing seems to 
be apropos.

Aloha
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Watt-hour meter

[Keith Cronin]

http://www.hialeahmeter.com/ 




From: Eric Andrews 
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:16:40 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Watt-hour meter

 
I’m looking for a Watt-hour meter that
is hard-wired (not a Kill-O-Watt plugin) and
resembles a kW-h utility meter for a trade-show display… 
 
 
Eric R. Andrews
NABCEP Certified PV
Installer
 
Eco Solar, Inc.
www.ecosolarnow.com
 
PO Box 5194
Klamath Falls, OR 97601
541-281-8252 cell
541-273-3200 office
mailto:e...@ecosolarnow.com
 
Saving
the World...  One Solar Panel at a
Time!___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] module pricing

[Keith Cronin]

MarcoTake a look in this months Home Power. There are many examples of mod manus and pricing to compare. Other websites that offer products point to the decline as well.One direction the manus seem to be taking is how to adjust to the commodity like fluctuations in pricing their products. It is a challenging environment for them now. When you consider that all of the 2009 manu capacity has been essentially pushed off the assembly line and only half of it has been sold, it puts tremendous pressure on them to turn inventory. The thinning of margins is hurting them and we could see some consolidation in the near future.My sense is this will be a cyclical thing and will sort it self out in the next 12-18 months as they regain pricing power as our economy stabilizes and
 confidence grows internationally.This is actually good for one subset of the market- the client. They are getting unprecedented deals that would have been unheard of two years ago, when we all were looking for product, but waited in line as the manus rumored to have shipped their products to higher margin places, like Spain that had robust FIT programs and pricing power.Time will tell whether micro cracks in cells and other maladays erupt in subsequent years for all and any manus. We should all hope for limited recalls. REC is doing it right, costing them a bunch, but this can happen in a hyper growth industry. Other manus might not have strong enough balance sheets to weather this type of storm and could be the Darwinian end to their operations as not having enough financial runway to sustain flight.AlohaKeithFrom: Marco Mangelsdorf To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 2:12:15 PMSubject: [RE-wrenches] module pricing



 
 







I’d like to do an unscientific poll and welcome any
participants. 

   

Please to fill in the blanks. 

   

These two manufacturers are currently selling the highest
priced PV modules at present (in terms of $/watt):  _ and
. 

   

I’ll go first. 

   

SunPower and Sanyo. 

   

While there’s been this pretty much manic race to the
bottom as far as module pricing, I’m curious as to which manus are trying
to make their stand on quality, high efficiency, power tolerance and premium
pricing for an ostensible premium product. 

   

Thanks, 

marco 

 

Marco Mangelsdorf, President
69 Railroad Avenue, A-7
Hilo, Hawai'i 96720
(808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile
www.provision-solar.com 

   

   

   



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[RE-wrenches] Helix Wind

[Keith Cronin]

http://www.helixwind.com/en/index.php

Anyone have any feedback on these?

Thanks
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[RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro

[Keith Cronin]

Hi

Have any of you considered using PV to pump water to a holding area and 
releasing it and capturing the kinetic energy via a pelton wheel/hydro?

If so, what do we think are the efficiencies and value of doing such a project 
are? Meaning, back of the napkin, PV is + - 77% efficient, minus "x" to pump 
the water to "x" elevation and the net result of the hydro = "% efficient"

It would be using the reservoir as the battery.

There is approximately 300' of elevation from the PV system and water source to 
the reservoir area.

I recall about 15 years ago, I visited a member on this lists Vermont home and 
he had a pond at the top of his property, but i don't recall how the source got 
to the reservoir? Might have been naturally fed?

Anyway, the premise is, as grid access becomes more difficult to do, as the 
utility infrastructure gets saturated, what are our options for folks that want 
PV, but are limited in how much they are allowed to connect to the grid, 
without an interconnection study by a 3rd party to increase the comfort of the 
utility to have more non firm resources on their grid. We are seeing this 
happen here now and I was wondering if any of you have encountered this or are 
anticipating this in your areas?

Any suggestions, calcs, recommendations, feedback would be appreciated. 

Keith
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro

[Keith Cronin]

Hello David

Yes, I know it was, just wanted to see if you were paying attention :)/. I 
recall it was 1993. (Great tour, property, family and environment. Still have 
the pictures!)

Yes, the levelized cost of electricity, when computing a host of variants, it 
seems a pumped hydro opportunity can exist for specific cases.
Spinning reserve here is like most places, in the hours when most of us are 
sleeping. Our peak is generally 5-9pm, when folks arrive home and do domestic 
activities.
We eventually will see tiered rates here and penalization for using power when 
its needed the most. Perhaps this will be the opportune time to deploy the 
pv-hydro application in instances where it is less expensive than grid power or 
when grid access becomes unavailable. I hope in our career lifetime, we don't 
loose this inalienable right to make our own electricity, or at least be 
offered the ability to do retail wheeling and send it to a neighbor for a 
negotiated fee. It needs to be more democratic like the internet. Pay the 
utility to be the toll booth and they can make $ maintaining the infrastructure 
and garnishing a few pennies on the delta of the cost structure.

Storage is the holy grail.

Thanks to all for the hydro feedback.





From: David Palumbo 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 3:43:58 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro

 
Hi Keith,
 
That is my place. Hydro pond is both spring fed and fed by a small
seasonal brook, no pumping.
 
I figure approximately  50% to55% efficiency for a high
head micro-hydro turbine (Harris PM), not including, wire, batteries and
inverter losses. I do not know the efficiency of larger turbines. Check with
Canyon Industries (they advertise in Home Power). I’ve heard that they
are significantly higher in efficiency (before transmission losses).
 
I have heard that at least one larger scale hydro facility in NY
State pumps back to the reservoir overnight at off peak rates, then releases
generation water during peak rate periods. Also, Hydro Quebec buys off peak
power from the U.S. grid when it’s dirt cheap to power Montreal overnight.
This saves some of their own water power for selling  to  the States
during peak periods. A nice money making deal for Quebec. So, your idea is
worth thinking about for regions such as Hawaii I believe.
 
Dave
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith
Cronin
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 2:43 PM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro
 
Hi

Have any of you considered using PV to pump water to a holding area and
releasing it and capturing the kinetic energy via a pelton wheel/hydro?

If so, what do we think are the efficiencies and value of doing such a project
are? Meaning, back of the napkin, PV is + - 77% efficient, minus "x"
to pump the water to "x" elevation and the net result of the hydro =
"% efficient"

It would be using the reservoir as the battery.

There is approximately 300' of elevation from the PV system and water source to
the reservoir area.

I recall about 15 years ago, I visited a member on this lists Vermont home and
he had a pond at the top of his property, but i don't recall how the source got
to the reservoir? Might have been naturally fed?

Anyway, the premise is, as grid access becomes more difficult to do, as the
utility infrastructure gets saturated, what are our options for folks that want
PV, but are limited in how much they are allowed to connect to the grid,
without an interconnection study by a 3rd party to increase the comfort of the
utility to have more non firm resources on their grid. We are seeing this
happen here now and I was wondering if any of you have encountered this or are
anticipating this in your areas?

Any suggestions, calcs, recommendations, feedback would be appreciated.

Keith___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro

[Keith Cronin]

Jay

Ok


How about the long version?

Can you also elucidate on # 4?

Regards

Keith



From: jay peltz 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 3:11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro

Hi Keith,

I get this question a lot.


1. Best efficiency for a hydro from potential energy in to actual output watts( 
not including wire loss) is around 40-60% depending on the exact application, 
turbine etc.

2. Efficiencies of pumps, is around the same at best. 

3. This won't replace the battery for off grid usage.  Thats the short version, 
the long answer if needed.

4. While hydro is magic if you've got it, pumped storage

5. So we've got some big loss's, 35% efficient at best and 15% at worst. IE 
batteries are way more efficient than pumped storage.

jay

peltz  Power




On Aug 24, 2009, at 11:43 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:

Hi
>
>Have any of you considered using PV to pump water to a holding area and 
>releasing it and capturing the kinetic energy via a pelton wheel/hydro?
>
>If so, what do we think are the efficiencies and value of doing such a project 
>are? Meaning, back of the napkin, PV is + - 77% efficient, minus "x" to pump 
>the water to "x" elevation and the net result of the hydro = "% efficient"
>
>It would be using the reservoir as the battery.
>
>There is approximately 300' of elevation from the PV system and water source 
>to the reservoir area.
>
>I recall about 15 years ago, I visited a member on this lists Vermont home and 
>he had a pond at the top of his property, but i don't recall how the source 
>got to the reservoir? Might have been naturally fed?
>
>Anyway, the premise is, as grid access becomes more difficult to do, as the 
>utility infrastructure gets saturated, what are our options for folks that 
>want PV, but are limited in how much they are allowed to connect to the grid, 
>without an interconnection study by a 3rd party to increase the comfort of the 
>utility to have more non firm resources on their grid. We are seeing this 
>happen here now and I was wondering if any of you have encountered this or are 
>anticipating this in your areas?
>
>Any suggestions, calcs, recommendations, feedback would be appreciated. 
>
>Keith
>___
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[RE-wrenches] SunnyBeam

[Keith Cronin]

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/partner/sma-america-inc-2081/news/article/2009/10/sma-america-unveils-new-sunny-beam-pv-system-monitor?cmpid=WNL-Wednesday-October21-2009

It appears it has arrived.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase track record

[Keith Cronin]

Clearly, we all have an opinion about this product and its efficacy moving 
forward, or its reliability today.

Much can be said about alot of the products we see filter through our hands 
over the years.

As we all look back to being pioneers in the this industry, one thing stands 
out- we take risks. 
Whether it be regulatory challenges, manufacturer's new products, O&M of a 
installation etc, it all comes down to being creative and be willing to educate 
ourselves and our client base.
In some ways, this is similar to the computer industry- some products make it 
and some don't. Kind of Darwinian, but the market will decide what the market 
wants.

I recall when the OK4U inverters hit the street, it was exciting to see the 
simple concept be applied to a modular one to one aspect of our industry. This 
was especially important, as the cost of modules back then was prohibitively 
expensive and this idea of an inverter to a module was an economic way to buy 
your system/green power incrementally.

So, it seems that Enphase has done the same and married computer/telecom 
technologies with the inverter topography to make a great product. Sure there 
will be others to follow with similiar and or solid state platforms and the 
like in the future and we should all welcome innovation and be mindful of the 
environments these products are subjected to and monitor their lifecycle.

In the next few years as more adoption of this promulgates, we will see the 
dc-ac conversion occur on the back of the module as it simplifies things on a 
host of fronts. One of them that has not been mentioned in this thread is the 
levelized cost of energy. Deploying systems that will meet the grid parity that 
we all seek to obtain. I'm not suggesting that reliability and potential 
premature product failures won't be in the way, because the proclivity of this 
to exist is real. I don't think anyone on this list can point to any inverter 
manu that has had its moments regarding efficacy for any continuous amount of 
time, like 10 years in a row without challenges. Pick any inverter manu, and we 
can all identify their challenges, as we have deployed their technology and at 
times had to go back to identify why it was or wasn't working as we expected. 
Anyone who installed a XR Sun Tie can remember..

They key is how do we all work together to meet the challenges when they come 
up and provide feedback to the makers of these innovative products to make them 
better. We have an opportunity to revolutionize the way we use energy in the 
world and the dynamic forces at work around the globe to make it more efficient 
and easily deployable are welcomed as it speeds the adoption of self generation 
to the masses.

So, if the Enphase product has a glitch, I'm confident they will step up and 
address it as they and everyone here agrees the market for these products are 
immense. Sure they could be acquired and make the industry wonder about 
warranties being not honored, but usually this coverage is part of the sale.

If any of you had the opportunity to go to Anaheim last week, you can see by 
the doubling of exhibitors and people who went to the show that this is serious 
business that is not going away but only growing as it is a truly bright star 
in our economy. With the attention that the administration is giving to us, 
coupled with state programs maturing for incentivizing our behavior changes in 
how we use energy, expect more innovative products in the future. They will 
come with technology glitches, but my view is they (manus) will identify that 
making it right will cost less and provide more market share and therefore 
improve upon what we are previously used to in our industry. This is good for 
all.

We need to decide whether balancing the risk of the new products into your 
offering, exceeds the value they represent.

Aloha

Keith





From: Mark Frye 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 11:32:21 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase track record

 
One weakness did present itself to me during my installation 
of Enphase inverters. Enphase makes some hay with the "no single point of 
failure" topology.
 
However, all the individual inverters share common AC buss 
wires. These are built by daisy chaining AC leads from inverter to inverter 
and then to the branch circuit.
 
The weakness is that if any single AC Tyco connector 
connection fails, all inverters upstream of that connector will be 
effected.  Sort of gets you back to the weakness of module to module 
connections in a string system. 
 
Interesting to me that we can talk much about the life cycle 
testing of the inverter, but in this case it all comes back to a connector 
to connector connection.
 
So a real question becomes, how will the Tyco connectors hold 
up over time in real world applications.
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 
95959 
(530) 
401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.c

Re: [RE-wrenches] China, Mexico, now what?

[Keith Cronin]

Jeff

Perhaps the concern of any of these companies being around is real, but my 
sense is this market is just beginning to grow as we know it.
http://earth2tech.com/2009/09/08/first-solar-to-build-worlds-largest-pv-solar-farm-for-chinese-government/

This is just one project, but it is inevitable that there will be more. Made in 
USA company sending their product to China, while the other Chinese manus are 
sending their products here...?

As the computer industry experienced consolidation and the talent that was with 
another company will migrate to the stronger competitor who then becomes the 
owner of a newly merged entity will continue for some time.

Personally, I believe we will see a renaissance in the mod frame concept for 
years to come. Two notables @ the show this year where SunPower with their T-5 
for flat roofs, Sollega and ZepSolar with their grooved frame to eliminate 
racking for pitched roofs.

Innovation will continue, just like Outback going from a 48 V controller to 
opening up the voltage window on the top end to allow us to wire multiple mods 
in series. I recall even their 3048 inverters transformers are potted in India, 
unless this shifted back to our shores? 

What the industry needs in America to support R&D as well as manufacturing, is 
a comprehensive national RPS, national net metering, national FIT, national 
baseline incentive program (state incentives that are equal whether it be a tax 
credit, CSI etc).then we will have a robust solar economy that Wall st and 
Main st will invest in for the long haul that will create jobs and use our 
ingenuity to be a leader again in this space. It appears the current 
administration is working on populating new companies in Detroit and in other 
locales around our country to deliver on a made in the USA platform as well. 
Alot of dept of energy projects require made in the USA, so it seems like the 
govt is the largest consumer of services (and energy) and would signal to the 
market soon that it is safe (long term commitment) to setup a business here and 
you won't need to worry about incentives dithering away in x amount of years.

So, until this change takes place, we will see incremental changes that could 
be construed as being frustrating, like finding a made in the USA label with 
all of the trimmings of a thanksgiving feast.





From: Jeff Yago 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 5:08:38 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] China, Mexico, now what?

OK, this earlier thread started with my concern that we are loosing our solar 
manufacturing industry, and the number of China module manufacturers have 
exploded in the past 2 years so its now impossible to tell which modules may 
have "lead paint toys" type problems that we won't know about until after we 
install several thousand.  

Ditto for US made modules since that "Made in USA" sticker no longer means what 
it says.  Then this thread headed off into frame issues, issues with low power, 
and issues with snow loading.

Here is the real question - What is a really good (not perfect, not highest 
price) module brand that is being sold by a company that will be around long 
enough to help with any warranty issues, that has very good watts per $ 
ratings, that has a sturdy frame, and our purchase would provide the most 
benefit to the American solar industry, even if not every part of the module 
was made in the US.

Jeff Yago
DTI Solar

_
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] performance matters

[Keith Cronin]

Folks

Back to the innovation axiom: more companies will deploy more web based 
solutions to measure real time data of a systems performance over time.

This data is important to have and see to compare characteristics related to 
mods and inverter performance to bolster or ouster manu claims on output.

Clearly with a nation FIT looming, it will be all about production and the 
reality of cost per watt will sail far into the distance of our memories.

Cost per kwH created, or in the longer run, LCOE- levelized cost of energy. 
Getting projects deployed at lower levelized costs will add to the value and 
create a better argument for the fossil fuel conversation and the why we need 
renewables will become more of an easier discussion to have. The utility 
charges us for kwH used, so keeping this in sync is essential.

To me, non firm resources will still have some uphill battles, until we find 
the holy grail- storage worked out in a pragmatic and economic fashion coupled 
with lower maintenance for the consumer.





From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 8:18:57 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] performance matters

 
Hence the need to be able to present objective, 3rd party-collected performance 
data demonstrably showing the superior performance
of one brand over another.
 
marco
 
Marco:

Good point, but how does a consumer quantify the expected long term harvest and
reliability of a solar electric system?  Smooth talking sales people will
assure customers that the lower priced system is of equal value as the name
brand system offered by an established installer.

William Miller

PS:  Our best customers are working or retired trades people or
engineers.  They know the difference.

Wm

At 09:50 AM 11/10/2009, you wrote:



 
But when it comes down it, what really matters to the consumer is not the
$/watt installed cost but the kWhs produced by the system over time.  For
what good is a cheap PV system if its output is poor?
 
No virus
found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.58/2493 - Release Date: 11/09/09
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase installation details

[Keith Cronin]

William

Some feedback:

1. The DC and AC wiring is generally under the modules and therefore protected.
2. Upon the wiring segueing out from under the modules- AC, you would switch to 
a JB and conduit. This can also be achieved prior to exiting below the modules.
3. www.schletter-inc.us  and http://www.hellermanntyton.us/markets.aspx?id=1362 
  have some wire management solutions, as well as AEE with some stainless clips.
4. Yes, we need to evolve as an industry in regards to wire management and 
mounting, as www.zepsolar.com is addressing in the future.
5. Yes, long term 10 year warranties in CA are the venerable canary in the coal 
mine scenario. My suggestion to all wrenches- offer O&M as a standard and not 
as an add on. Develop a long term relationship with your clients and they will 
surely appreciate the TLC over the years. This should/could mitigate your short 
lived UV rated tie wrap dilemma.
6. The solar water industry is alive and thriving here and eventually get a 
resurgence in other jurisdictions around the country...stay tuned- the short 
answer is- follow the incentiveswhen they go away, so does the work or the 
incentive for a William to open up shop, buy equipment and hire 
peopleremember Jimmy Carter @ the White House and in one administration the 
panels had been removedand with it the imagination of the industry...
7. The competitive advantage axiom you suggest- look at it another way. If you 
lead your area in craftsmanship and have a low O&M cost per client and every 
integrator learned the way of William, perhaps they would also go to the great 
lengths to provide the same level of service and in doing so, would cost this 
into their projects. This, invariably, would become a standard and in doing so, 
become the only way it gets done. Lead, not follow. If followers don't identify 
the leaders, then we are destined to have a substandard industry that is self 
perpetuating and at the rate of growth in our industry we need to ask ourselves 
what legacy will we decide to leave. I'm not suggesting to give away trade 
secrets, but I wonder if sharing wire management techniques will better all in 
our vocationgive it some consideration as there are long term positive 
consequences.almost like a solar "syntopicon"- an index to great "solar" 
ideas...

Aloha~


Keith



From: William Miller 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 10:04:26 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase installation details

Colleagues:

We are in the middle of our first Enphase installation.  I have been
working closely with the crew on this project and dedicated extra time
because we knew we needed to develop some new procedures to accommodate
the new technology.

My most surprising realization is that with the Enphase inverters, the
roof-top wiring now has two levels of unprotected wiring, DC and AC.I have 
been working on an analogy for the recent
evolution of PV wiring standards and the best I can come up with is that
the new norm is akin to wiring a rooftop air conditioning unit with SO
and USE.  Flexible cords are more suited to portable, consumer
connectable appliances in non-harsh environments.

We wrestled with two issues:  How to secure the AC wiring with a
minimum 10 year longevity -- and how to secure the DC wiring with the
same life expectancy.  In a previous career I worked in the
telecommunications industry.  In a telcom facility we had access to
many layers of wire routing hardware and systems.  The PV industry
has, in my opinion,  largely ignored wire management. 
Ironically, telecom wiring is low voltage in an industrial setting and we
can secure it systematically, whereas PV wiring is high voltage, often in
a residential setting, outdoors, in high temperature and wet conditions
and yet we are relegated to the ubiquitous and fragile cable tie as our
prime methodology.  It is our corporate position that the plastic
cable tie can not be counted on for longer that two years in an under-PV
environment and, since we wire for a minimum 10 year life expectancy, the
plastic cable tie is not suitable.

Over the course of two days we developed robust and efficient techniques
for securing the AC and DC wiring.  I'd love to share our procedures
with this group, but due to extreme competition in our area, I must of
necessity keep any procedures that give us a competitive advantage
confidential.  This is unfortunate as my inclination is to teach,
but it  is a reality in this business climate.

I hope the industry can eventually recognize some of these short
comings.  The solar water industry died an early death because of
economic pressures and shoddy workmanship.  It is possible that the
solar electric industry of today can suffer some of the same if we can't
preform to higher standards.

William Miller



Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller 
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax:
805-438-4607
email: will...@miller

Re: [RE-wrenches] Equipment shortages, long lead times?

[Keith Cronin]

Jay

I also agree that the training/position on this subject matter should be two 
separate certifications. Let me give some examples:

Last year in Hawaii, we have reported approximately 11mW's of PV that went in. 
In speaking to the utility folks, less than 1% had any batteries associated 
with the systems.
In polling fellow integrators, it became clear that it is probably less than 1% 
have batteries. The folks that are doing batteries here are a different subset. 
Sure they might be on grid and want 4 8D's tied to their Outback (like me), but 
there are others that live in remote areas that IMHO, take more of an active 
power plant management role.

When you look at the small integrators company makeup- it is probably less than 
10 people. They might do a majority of their work in an semi urban environment 
where there is a competitive nature to the business and clients are getting 
multiple quotes for 2-5kW systems that are grid tie only, as the end users goal 
is to leverage incentives and stabilize their operating expenses while 
simultaneously going green.

We are all seeing new folks entering this space and when you are operating a 
business, taking the time to just teach the fundamentals about anything grid 
tie, from 690-64B to string sizing is alot to manage. Keeping clients, 
inspectors and utility representatives content requires alot of finesse, as 
well as growing your people.

Also, I believe the battery type client really needs a service and repair type 
of shop company to work with. Anyone on this list knows their first experiences 
with batteries and the multiple trips to the site as well as the hours you have 
put in learning about C rates of charge for a particular battery manu and how 
it correlates to a particular charge controller. Most new companies or 
companies that are focused on the urban solar business model perhaps haven't 
had the reason or taken the time to learn. Or, they might have done 1 last year 
and the tech they trained moved on to another opportunity.

So, if an integrator gets a call to provide a proposal for a battery based 
system they have a few options: have the client referred to a Bob-O, who is a 
specialist in this genre; get trained before the installation and be upfront 
with the client that this is a learning experience and they will be there for 
the client when the pull the battery bank down and it trips the main. Hopefully 
they encouraged the client to have a maintenance agreement so you can come out 
to check the batteries and system, or in some ways you are doing yourself and 
the end user a disservice, as these systems need TLC. Anyone that has been 
around for a while has gotten the call to come inspect a system that is 
wounded. When we arrive we start to make judgements visually and then dig into 
the situation like a surgeon. We can assess the situation and leave the client 
with options. This has value in the eye of the integrator who wants to have 
this type of client in their roster. 

I've found a few good battery/pv folks in the boating world here. They truly 
understand state of charge/amp hours, but they don't necessarily know much 
about AC wiring and the NEC.

Clearly, the integrator that does battery based systems needs to have 
specialists on the team to support this part of the business, as trying to 
bluff your way through it can cause more harm than good. Hopefully if the 
integrator enters uncharted territory, they make a choice to either learn or 
hand off the project to someone that has the experience.

Thanks for the opportunity to testify~

Keith







From: jay peltz 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 6:04:07 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Equipment shortages, long lead times?

At the risk of stirring the hornets nest, I disagree with NABCEP's stance of 
this issue.

I think for their own survival and best interest they need to specialize.
Battery based and batteryless are really different critters.
And that the present and future of the industry is hugely weighted to the 
batteryless systems it makes perfect sense to have two different sections.

Since NABCEP already has 2 tests, they can add a third.  
This is a new revenue stream for NABCEP.

And thanks Daryl for the idea of the transmission repair person.  I got to 
thinking and yes in the old days, folks repaired both, and many mechanics will 
still try their hands at repairing standards, but the automatics have gotten 
very very complex needing very special tools and training such that that 
someone who fixes automatics might be able to fix a standard, but it doesn't go 
the other way.

My 2 cents,

jay

peltz power


On Nov 23, 2009, at 11:57 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:

> Here, here Bob-O.
>   We, too, have seen no decrease in our off grid market as well. It is
> rapidly becoming a specialized field here in Maine.(not talking about
> you, Tump) Even our largest competitor is now sending off grid business
> to us

[RE-wrenches] PV Powered vs SMA

[Keith Cronin]

Hi colleagues

Do any of you have a preference, PV Powered vs SMA in the residential space- 
2k-5k grid tie inverter zone?

Comments on performance/reliability/customer service etc?

Any feedback on their monitoring vs SMA's webbox?

Thanks

Keith
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[RE-wrenches] Antireflective coatings

[Keith Cronin]

http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=10827

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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array conduit runs

[Keith Cronin]

Jeff

EMT is fine on the roof. Rigid will add weight to the roof, as well as increase 
your labor costs to install it. 

My take away from the Target project after reading the report was they did not 
use the correct fittings. Coupled with long conduit runs and perhaps not using 
junction boxes and providing loops in the box to address expansion and 
contraction contributed to the incident. It is like a plane crash- it is 
usually not one thing that makes the plane crash, but a series of events that 
leads to the demise of a situation. It seems the same goes for the Target 
project.

If any of you have ever driven over a bridge and have sat in traffic, sometimes 
you get visually exposed to the conduit runs, and the expansion fittings. You 
will also see junction boxes, with generous loops of wire to address the 
expansion and contraction that occurs.

Also, the temp derate on 310-15-B-2-C has a table for exposed conduits on the 
roof; 310-16 & 310-17 should be reviewed.

Keith





From: Jeff Yago 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 8:03:04 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large array conduit runs


We are starting to get much larger grid tie systems above 100 kW and I still 
remember very clearly that Target melt down related to conduit that shorted out 
a bundle of string runs between the array and inverters due to improper 
allowance for expansion and contraction in the long above roof conduit runs.  
With this in mind I wanted to specify a conduit between multiple array rows 
back to the inverters and we get rain, snow, high temps, low temps that make me 
want to go with extra protection and cable support and have budget to do it 
right.  
 
What type of metal conduit are you using on these larger roof array commercial 
systems - - - EMT, Intermediate, pipe, other?
 
Thanks,
 
Jeff Yago
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] sales commissions

[Keith Cronin]

My perspective-

If the client recently purchased a 3kW system and the commission in this 
example is 5%.

3kW @ $7/w = $21k. So the sales person made $1050 for the original deal.
Lets say they want to add on 2kW more with the same example above
2k@ @ $7/w= $14k. Sales commission is $700.

So, the questions are many- does the person deserve (pick the adjective you 
deem appropriate) it?

Well, look at it this way. This person established the rapport and this could 
have taken considerable time to coalesce.
It seems the client liked the experience and called back the sales person for 
more due to the relationship building.

The company, on the other hand, should be familiar with the site and the 
conditions and have notes and drawings in a semi boiler plate fashion.
This will further (or could) increase the profitability and fluidity of the 
project, so everyone wins.

So, everyones cost of sale, so to speak is lower.

Why ding the sales person to 3% or any number less than what they are used to? 
It can bring up bad feelings on each parties side. Is it really worth debating?
To save a $100- $200 bucks, it seems like it could be counterproductive. There 
are so many other times the sales person works for McDonalds wages, so it can 
balance itself out over time.

Aloha~

Keith





From: "solarepiph...@gmail.com" 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 1:38:01 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sales commissions

Hey there,

We offer our sales team a per module commission for expansion of systems. Its 
an easy flat fee per module. Just an idea. 

Eric 
Solar Epiphany LLC
Seattle
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:13:07 
To: 
Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 3, Issue 125

Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

   1.  Walt Ratterman found (Foster, Robert)
   2. DPW MPM (Phil Schneider)
   3. Re: DPW MPM (Bob-O Schultze)
   4. sales commissions (Marco)
   5. Re: sales commissions (Bob-O Schultze)


--

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 23:27:44 +0430 (AFT)
From: "Foster, Robert" 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches]  Walt Ratterman found
Message-ID: <50194.93.91.89.214.1265741864.squir...@webmail.nmsu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Our prayers and thoughts are with the Ratterman family.

>From the Calgary Herald:

Quake victim's legacy of caring spans globe

BY VALERIE FORTNEY, CALGARY HERALD FEBRUARY 9, 2010

At some point in the early morning hours of Monday, a body was pulled
from the rubble of the Hotel Montana in Port-au-Prince, Haiti. It was a
scene that's been played out thousands of times in this heartbroken
country since an earthquake hit Jan. 12, the death toll having now
topped 200,000.

While the loss of each innocent life is a tragedy in itself, the
discovery of this one body has sent waves of grief around an entire
planet, touching down everywhere from Calgary to Pakistan, to Burma and
Sudan, and into some of its most remote corners.

That's because whether you were a Papua New Guinean tribesman, an Afghan
peasant or a wealthy American philanthropist, Walt Ratterman had a way
of getting into your heart. This longtime humanitarian wanted the world
to be a better place, and was willing to roll up his sleeves and get to
work to make it so.

Two weeks ago, I shared with Herald readers Walt's story, of how I and a
few other Calgarians came to be lucky enough to make his acquaintance
these past few years.

Photographer Dianne Bos remembered Walt as a "real live action hero;"
Sally Goddard, mother of Capt. Nichola Goddard, Canada's first female
soldier to die in combat, said he was like a heroic character out of a
great novel; and Grady Semmens, of the University of Calgary's media
relations department, described Walt as Indiana Jones in the flesh.

Even people like Dave Irvine-Halliday, founder of the internationally
renowned Light Up the World Foundation -- whose organization brings
solar-powered, LED technology to parts of the world where electricity is
a luxury -- expressed awe for this man who jokingly described himself as
a "mercenary humanitarian."

If you have been o

Re: [RE-wrenches] ecoSolargy PV modules

[Keith Cronin]

Bob

They have contacted me and seem eager to distribute their products.

Keith




From: Bob Clark 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 5:02:17 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] ecoSolargy PV modules

 
RE-Wrenches:
 
Does
anyone have experience with ecoSolargy PV modules:  http://www.ecosolargy.com/# 
?
 
Bob Clark
SolarWind
Energy Systems, LLC
P.O. Box
1234
Okanogan,
WA 98840
(509)
826-1259___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Torchdown, low pitched PV. How to weatherproof.

[Keith Cronin]

Eric

You might want to consider using these->

http://www.chemlink.com/docs/datasheets/chemlink_chemcurbs.pdf
Nice video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaqzk-G5WDk




From: "solarepiph...@gmail.com" 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 9:31:25 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Torchdown, low pitched PV. How to weatherproof.

Hey there,

Any best practices out there for low pitch, torchdown weatherproofing? I know 
the industry standard (now) is to NOT rely on mastics/sealants alone; that 
mechanical flashing is the only form of adequately protecting roof 
penetrations. BUT, what about torchdown? There are quite a bit of these types 
of roofs in my area, I need to understand the options for future ref. Any help 
is appreciated. 

Thanks,

Eric
NABCEP Cert. PV Installer
Seattle
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:25:52 
To: 
Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 3, Issue 187

Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Transformerless inverters require special plugleads on
  the PV modules, right? (Darryl Thayer)
   2. Re: Solar rights precedent (James A. Hartley)
   3. Re: Transformerless inverters require special plug leads on
  the PV modules, right? (Marv Dargatz)
   4. Re: Transformerless inverters require special plugleads on
  the PV modules, right? (Brian Crise)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:11:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Darryl Thayer 
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Transformerless inverters require special
plugleads on the PV modules, right?
Message-ID: <601511.61364...@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

The transformer-less inverter does not have the separation between AC and DC as 
in a transformer type. The Solar Modules do not have overcurent protection as 
in the AC system.  So the wire has to be sized Isc x 156% all the way through 
the system or larger if required by the AC system.  

--- On Thu, 2/25/10, Mick Abraham  wrote:

> From: Mick Abraham 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transformerless inverters require special plug leads 
> on the PV modules, right?
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 12:54 PM
> Hi, Mechanix~
> 
> Am I correct that the good ol' plug connector leads on
> many solar modules are non-compatible with transformerless
> grid-tie inverters? If so...which module mfrs have switched
> to the different type of wire and how can I be sure?
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically, would the 2010 Sharp 230 polycrystal or the
> Yingli 230 polycrystal modules be properly equipped for use
> with the x-formerless inverters?
> 
> ...and...the next time I buy #10 sunlight resistant wire
> for making up my own plug extensions...should I buy a more
> exotic wire type and how do I know what will work?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
> 
> Voice: 970-731-4675
> 
> 
> -Inline Attachment Follows-
> 
> ___
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> 


  


--

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:12:22 -0600
From: "James A. Hartley" 
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar rights precedent
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

You might start with the Law of Ancient Lights in English common law as to the 
rightful access to sunlight and build your case up from that hoary tradition.  
There are many instances of this law in practice and its definition.  Google 
knows most of these.  


  - Original Message - 
  From: William Miller 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:27 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar rights precedent


  Friends:

  We are applying for a building permit i

Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

[Keith Cronin]

Hi

http://www.deckmonitoring.com/index.html

My understanding is that this is not low cost, but something to ponder for 
larger systems.




From: Darryl Thayer 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 3:03:05 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems


Hi Peter APRS world has a revinue grade DAS 
James could advise you as to multiple power inputs.  I also think he as alarm 
settings..   On a demand reduction system I am just performing monitoring using 
a very cheap 
TED.  I am working on a building with 800 amp single phase service,  I just 
purchased a couple of CTs busbar clamp size and replaced the factory supplied 
ones.  But I am taking a different route for my inverter generator control.  
Daryl

--- On Tue, 4/13/10, Philip Boutelle  wrote:


>From: Philip Boutelle 
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems
>To: "RE-wrenches" 
>Date: Tuesday, April 13, 2010, 2:36 PM
>
>
>eGauge is not revenue grade, but could cover your requirements (1), (2), and 
>(2). The proprietor David Mosberger-Tang (dav...@egauge.net) is pretty savvy 
>with programming too, and he might be amenable to adding a programmable alarm, 
>since it is just software. Depending on how many loads you need to monitor 
>(how many CTs you need), parts would be in the $1,000 range.
>
>Fat Spaniel could do all of it, but it can be difficult to get the attention 
>you need if the project has custom programming aspects. And you are stuck 
>paying a monthly fee for the life of the system.
>
> >
>Phil Boutelle
>Project Engineer
>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer TM
>Real Goods Solar, Inc. 
>831.477.0943 office
>831.359.5268 mobile 
>831.477.0944 fax
>www.RealGoodsSolar.com
>
>
>On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Peter Parrish 
> wrote:
>
>I am joining this thread a little late, so I may have missed a bifurcation
>>into a related area.
>>
>>We have need for a DAS system that does the following:
>>
>>(1) Monitors inverter output, including some bigger commercial sized
>>inverters from Satcon and SMA (100 kW to 500 kW)
>>(2) Monitors utility input at service panel
>>(2) Monitors several loads (up to five) via the service panel
>>(3) Irradiance and temperature would be great but not absolutely necessary
>>(4) Some sort of alarm system that would trigger at a programmable kW
>>threshold for the utility input.
>>
>>What we are trying to do is monitor not only the PV system but the utility
>>demand and key loads as well, and to come up with a strategy for shedding
>>load to keep the demand below a certain amount.
>>
>>I know this is a fairly tough spec, and
>> we may have to do some customization
>>and/or programming to get what we want.
>>
>>- Peter
>>
>>
>>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
>>California Solar Engineering, Inc.
>>820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
>>CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
>>peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
>>Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Irish
>>Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:37 PM
>>To: RE-wrenches
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems
>>
>>The Locus system is less than $1,000 for single phase.
>>Jeff
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
>>wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com
>>Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:50 PM
>>To: RE-wrenches
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems
>>
>>
>>I think the big this here is Low cost? Maybe we should define the price
>>range so we can get a better fell of the product range?
>>
>>
>>Logan
>>
>>
>>> Chris,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Locus Energy has a low cost, revenue grade system that will work with
>>> all inverters.  We have several dozen deployed and they're working
>>well.
>>> Customer needs to have a high speed internet connection.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> www.locusenergy.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've tried the TED and found it to be more of a toy than a serious
>>> contractor product, although it may meet some user's needs.  The Locus
>>> system is more accurate and robust, with much greater data storage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff Irish
>>>
>>> Hudson Valley Clean Energy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
>>> Mangelsdorf
>>> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:12 PM
>>> To: ch...@solarandwindfx.com; 'RE-wrenches'
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've had one of my guys research this same question a while ago and
>>the
>>> conclusion was the as far as low-cost DAS systems, Fat Spaniel was the
>>> big winner, as in under $1,000 which includes a year's worth of
>>> monitoring.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> marco
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] prof liabilty insurance

[Keith Cronin]

https://www.kessleradvisors.com/contentnt.aspx?id=212From: David Brearley To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 12:01:59 PMSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] prof liabilty insurance





SEIA has on offician insurance broker:




David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
Direct: 541.261.6545

On 4/20/10 4:35 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf"  wrote:

I’m in search for an insurance co. that provides professional liability insurance (also known as an errors and omissions policy) for PV integrators.
 
That is, do any of you know of any particular insurance companies out there that actually have a clue about our trade instead of trying to shoe horn us into some other contracting or engineering profession category on their lame-brain forms?
 
You’d think that by now some insurance companies would specifically list solar electric contractors as a separate category…then again few members of the public are able to grasp the difference between a kW and kWh.
 
Thanks,
marco
 

Marco Mangelsdorf, President
69 Railroad Avenue, A-7
Hilo, Hawai'i 96720
(808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile
www.provision-solar.com  
 











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Re: [RE-wrenches] Volcanos, reduced solar production and kWh performance warr...

[Keith Cronin]

Friends

Having had some experience in this genre, after selling my company to SunEdison 
in '07, here are my takeaways.

1. The financing community want assurances. My hunch is their expectations or 
what they were sold compared to what the production is, could be falling short.
2. Risk management- pushing the risk to the integrator, leverages their 
returns. Assignment of this responsibility, kWH harvest is hard to quantify.
3. The factor- PVWatts- .77; .82- perhaps the .77 is more conservative- over 
time. The amalgamation of 25 or so years of production is hard to extrapolate. 
Another function of risk. Who is being relegated to take the risk, is a 
negotiable piece of the relationship.

Overall, the way wrenches can make some more $ and have a long term 
relationship with their clients, is having a maintenance-recurring revenue 
aspect to their business models. This is were you could articulate this. If you 
are being asked to provide warranties/assurances, build it into the deal. X 
cents per kW, for the system install, etc. Yes, enjoy the upside to your favor, 
since they are asking you to share the downside. Some years, the weather will 
be fantastic and hence increased production, some years, Iceland will have 
erupting volcanoes.

To me, the performance based model needs to come out of our industry and we 
need to wean ourselves from tax credits, buy downs etc and go FIT. This 
includes full blown maintenance agreements on systems we have deployed, to 
ensure the tax payers who have subsidized these systems at the federal and 
state level are getting a good return on their investment as well. It makes me 
wonder how many systems that have been grid tied over the last 10 years are 
still fully optimized and working to spec? I surmise alot of connectors have 
come loose, trees have grown, dirt has accumulated, etc., to suggest a 
degradation of performance.

If we are seeking energy independence, we need to have a digital dashboard to 
manage the systems efficacy.




From: "solar...@aol.com" 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Mon, April 26, 2010 4:57:49 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Volcanos, reduced solar production and kWh 
performance warr...

Marco:
 
At what point (kW or cost) does a weather station with online monitoring 
make sense?  
What (or who ) defines "normal weather?"
Defining expectations for the large (> 1M) installations must 
be particularly vexing - what constitutes normal or expected downtime due 
to mechanical failure becomes key to structuring PPA's.
If making a warranty on kWh production must be part of a contract, a 
number of concerns must be tackled in the way it is written, especially with 
regard to the value of compensation.  Maybe funds could be awarded for over 
production or applied as a credit against lower than expected 
kWh. 
 
Pat Redgate
Ameco
 
In a message dated 4/26/2010 4:38:43 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
solar1onl...@charter.net writes:
 
>Hi Marco,
> 
>I hope this query does not divert response to 
>  your original question.
> 
>How is the situation of the reduced performance 
>  due to the volcano (or other "acts of God" or the like) approached 
>  in the Power Purchase contract? Perhaps this could be titled "Reduced Solar 
>  Production As a Result of Reduced Solar Input". 
> 
>TIA,
> 
>Bill Loesch
>Solar 1 - Saint Louis 
>  Solar
>
>PS As I remember, the last time I bought a new 
>  vehicle, back in the Dark Ages, the auto manufacturer's warranty deferred to 
>  the tire maker's warranty (for tires), etc. Any similarity? 
> 
> 
>- Original Message - 
>>From: Marco 
>>Mangelsdorf 
>>To: 'RE-wrenches' 
>>Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:02 
>>PM
>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Volcanos,reduced 
>>solar production and kWh performance warranties
>>
>>
>>This thread brings up a very 
>>timely issue that I’m dealing with right now with PV Power Purchase 
>>Providers.  As an integrator providing turnkey PV systems of X kW, I’m 
>>being asked to contractually agree to a minimum performance warranty for 
>>said PV systems.  I am EXTREMELY uncomfortable to any such clause in 
>>any contract that I would sign.  I have strong confidence in my PV 
>>design capabilities  and engineering support and in my professional 
>>crew to install a top-quality PV system.  I have a lot less confidence 
>>in an inverter manufacturer being able to get to a site on a Hawaiian 
>> island 
>>in the middle of the Pacific in a super timely fashion as the lost PV 
>> kWhs 
>>rack up.  And as I mentioned in a previous post today, we have an 
>>active volcano here that’s been spewing since 1983, a volcano that could 
>> get 
>>a lot worse on any given day.  I’m leaning strongly against agreeing to 
>>any such clause.  Way too bad a precedent to set.  Way too much of 
>>a liability.
>> 
>>Anyone else had to deal with 
>>this bugger of a performance warranty demand?
>> 
>>Than

Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Enphase performance

[Keith Cronin]

Makes you wonder what is officially calibrated to whatis digital more 
accurate or analog utility meters...??




From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Douglas Bath 
Sent: Thu, May 6, 2010 8:11:16 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Enphase performance

 
Marco,
 
I have a revenue grade kWh meter on my 3 Enphase 175 system that is owned by 
the utility (production based incentive in WA state) and the Enphase monitoring 
reads about 6% over the revenue meter. This has been over a one year period. 
I've been very pleased with the performance using either measurement.

Brad
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Whats with Kyocera

[Keith Cronin]

I've heard alot of manu's are struggling or will be struggling to meet demand 
this year- SunPower, Canadian and now it seems Kyocera.

Who is next?

Seems like 2006 all over again.




From: Steven Lawrence 
To: "re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" 
Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 7:51:51 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whats with Kyocera

It's the same thing here.  They aren't taking any large orders from us.  

Steven Lawrence
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm)


--

Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:22:27 -0700
From: i2p 
To: "List for complaining about anything RE."

Cc: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whats with Kyocera?
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Without any word, they have stopped taking orders.! Not only could they not 
fulfill an immediate need, they refused to even take a pretty nice order for 
future delivery.


Who is still getting Kyocera? Whats the deal.? Are they dumping the small 
accounts??

If you are still doing business with Kyocera, what size orders are you 
placing.? Not looking for biz intelligence here, just respond as small , medium 
or large.

Thanks for comments and information. Just trying to figure out where to go from 
here. Like I'm looking for a supplier who treats smaller shops with some 
respect. My comments do not reflect on my salesperson at Kyocera who is very 
upset by being forced to refuse orders.

Don Loweburg
Offline Solar

***
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Re: [RE-wrenches] electrical permit requirements

[Keith Cronin]

William

Good points. One thing I'd like to mention out here in the 50th state- on the 
residential side, they don't do any calcs. They count on the installer. The 
electrical inspectors aren't privy either or aren't very interested. Even on 
some of the commercial projects, small commercial, they are taking the word of 
the PE that stamps the drawings. Just like electricians, some PE's are diving 
in to this and asking PV guys how to do the calcs, as they are more trained in 
the commercial strip mall, high rise, hospitality genre and not boned up on 
string sizing.

Hopefully fires don't result, and breakers or fuses alleviate the worst case 
scenario.

I mentioned in a recent marketing post that enphase is simple, easy to sell and 
easier to install. It is more forgiving on the design and IMHO, most homeowners 
won't measure the difference of a percent or 2 off of production. They should 
be more concerned with the proper tire inflation recommendations by the tire 
manu- and get more "mileage" out of their commute.

Prediction: micro inverters will get cheaper and cheaper over the next 3-5 
years. More choices and become a super-commodity. Sure it can be a PIA to 
replace one or a bunch of them if they fail, but people will put up with the 
inconvenience in year 10, or whenever they quit producing. Sure it is an 
electricians challenge to replace them, but I look at it as an opportunity to 
help those in need.
It is akin to all of the equipment folks on this list have installed for 10 
years or so- we are starting to see things fail. SW4048 I had that I gave to a 
friend finally quit (very salty out here); they decided to upgrade. Same for 
the numerous Xantrex in 02 that I installed that also went haywire and had 
numerous replacements.
Not too sure, but I think when you've been at this a while, you (we) come to 
expect better life spans of products. It is hard to stay on the bleeding edge 
and fulfill the needs of our customers (as they see new products and want them 
and have us install them), with not stepping into the future and risking their 
hard earned dollars.

I'm sure alot of us 10 years ago didn't get requests from planning departments- 
they were asking us how to do the designs and needed our help. At least that is 
how it was out here back then. A partnership of sorts. Now, they are 
overwhelmed with permit applications and the workload seems to have them 
approving things that we seem deserves more attention

Aloha

Keith




From: William Miller 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tue, June 15, 2010 3:02:19 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] electrical permit requirements

Nick:

Rhetorical questions to follow:

If you do not provide string calculations, how do you verify that Voc
will not exceed NEC limits?  How do you verify DC feeder
ampacities?  Does your jurisdiction not verify such
parameters?   We know you have a handle on these factors, but
how about the Johnny-come-latelies trying to take your business? 
Should they not be kept to uniform standards meant to protect the safety
of the consumer (and ensure fair competition)?

Can you really expect a field inspector or the customer to verify these
parameters?  I believe all of these issues are best handled by
stringent plan check.

What is more important to you:  saving a few bucks in permit fees or
preventing house fires?

William Miller




At 05:01 PM 6/15/2010, you wrote:

Hi Jeff:
>>My standard permit docs are comprehensive, but do not
>include documentation regarding string sizing, thank goodness.  A
>permit technician/ plan reviewer should not be overseeing string
>sizing.  You should be thankful that the permit fees are so low,
>because that is the best thing a jurisdiction could do to support
>PV!  
>>Any fly-by-night, incompetent installer can check
>string sizing on the inverter manu's web site.  I would suspect
>that, regardless of the plan review process, the less experienced
>installers will still be accountable to the inspector and their
>customer.
>> 
>>Nick Soleil___
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[RE-wrenches] -48 Volts at the Phone Company

[Keith Cronin]

Hi folks

Any inverters in the marketplace that will happily take -48 volts off the phone 
companies standard battery banks they use to backup their phone network for us?

Client wants to drive a 15kva load and replace and existing conventional UPS 
system that was rated for 40kva.

 
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[RE-wrenches] Enphase- How big is too big

[Keith Cronin]

Recently, I was asked, how big is too big- to use micro inverters vs a string 
inverter for a small commercial system.

With my own experience, we did a 10kW system and the owner was ecstatic with 
the level of detail and the reporting, as over the last couple of years, we had 
a few inverters that seemed to not be reporting, which Enphase replaced, 
regardless of why they weren't functioning.

Yes, we had a few trips to the site to swap out and replace, but overall I 
believe knowing that its working vs guessing that everything is working is 
better. 

As string inverters become smarter- aka, can identify under performance via 
technology, I'm left to wonder, how many systems are deployed out there that 
I've done or others over the last 15 years or so and how many are working, as 
designed, as the likelihood of having access to the data could be non-existent.

So, if a prospect wants to have the granularity and is ok with the prospect of 
micro inverter failures, then how big would you make the system? 10kW, 20kW, 
30kW?
How many modules? 30, 50, 100? (same question, different approach)

Appreciate it.
 
Aloha,


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Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales

[Keith Cronin]

Jessie

Great question and it spawned a few additional questions.

1. How many on the list here do urban only or 97% on grid vs off grid systems?
2. How many urban solar folks today, have segued to mostly micro inverters vs 
string inverters?
3. How many wrenches here do mostly battery systems?
4. How many folks here have sales engineers or sell systems themselves?
5. If you have a sales team, what are they allowed to do? Go on the roof and 
measure? Open an electrical panel/meter?

Reason I ask, is the trends seem to be shifting in our area and perhaps because 
its more urban. Sales folks are trained to do preliminary work- google 
earth/pictometry etc. 
Then have a baseline for system sizing, prior to the site visit. They contact 
prospects and go over their needs and get the electric bill prior to the visit.
If the prospects express all of the buying signs or its a referral- hot to 
trot, many companies here will give a proposal within the second visit, pending 
the electrician/pre inspection to dial in the electrical and roof verification 
items to ensure whats being proposed can actually be installed for final 
proposal presentation. Many companies don't allow sales folks on roofs or near 
electrical panels for many reasons including liability and lack of background.

So, if you're a small company- all electricians, so to speak, this test and the 
supporting framework would be very helpful.
For alot of the larger companies- and I mean over 5-10+ sales force, I believe 
the structure of how they approach prospects has shifted over the last couple 
of years, especially in light of micro inverters and their relative design 
simplicity. I believe this trend will continue, as we see more and more micro 
or AC output modules entering into the marketplace.

For the folks that are doing off grid stuff, I've always found it to be a more 
unique niche, as its a very technical sale and requires a deeper skill set, as 
the competence of the sales/designer/installer/service team is usually a small 
group of people from a small company, but I reserve the right to be wrong about 
this. I see a future when and where we will all be off grid and there will be a 
huge market to service the energy storage devices that support our baseline 
energy from solar or another non firm energy resource to power our futures, as 
grid saturation and feeder capacities at the utility level will cause us to 
head in this direction, naturally.
 
Aloha, Keith



 From: Jesse Dahl 
To: Wrenches  
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:05 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales
 

Hello,


I'm prepping for the NABCEP sales exam and was wondering if others on here have 
taken it?  What are your thoughts?

Jesse
Sent from my iPad!!!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales

[Keith Cronin]

Hi folks

Well, it could be applicable, as I see the trends shifting on how the business 
is done, as you've pointed out below. Understanding and creating a strategy on 
adapting to the changing market trends, as we know requires some time, effort, 
research and help.

Getting prepared is the next step. Develop the systems/processes if you believe 
you need to close on 1 visit. Its a big commitment and ponder whether even in a 
lease, $0 down, if folks sign 20 page documents and don't read the fine print 
and get, like a doctor, a second opinion, regardless of how sweet the deal is.

You and any small shop can offer great service and very personal attention to 
customer care. Its not when things are going well, do people remember- its what 
you did when it didn't that is seared into their cerebrums.

Wrenches here are uniquely ready to show off their knowledge, experience, 
expertise and craftsmanship. Your brands have been around for a long time and 
market your longevity accordingly.

Don't give up on financing- know you can tap into the credit union entities- 
they're clamoring to write loans. Went to our local building trade show 
yesterday- evidenced by a handful of credit unions eager to have you go green 
and the terms are very affordable for consumers and they have multiple ways of 
doing it, not just a refi or home equity, which can be time consuming to write 
and process. There are great personal loans now that are 60 months, 4.5%; 
minimum $5k loan; they'll also do up to 180 months @ 8%. Plenty of time to 
recoup the incentives and have a payment that is lower than what they're paying 
now (at lease out here its applicable).

In alot of ways, it seems that solar is now affordable to many folks and the 
technology- on the grid tie stuff is less complicated than the first days of 
being able to interconnect to the utility, so I'm optimistic for whats possible.
 
Aloha, Keith


____
 From: Mark Frye 
To: 'Keith Cronin' ; 'RE-wrenches' 
 
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:03 AM
Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales
 

Keith et. Al.
 
Not really sure that this is appropriate for Wrenches 
but.
 
Here in California, the big installers like SolarCity and 
Sungevity etc. are moving to closing the sale on the first visit to the site, 
cleaning up the details after the fact.
 
But, the big thing now is that these groups have succesfully 
integrated the financial services into the product offering. 0$ down leases are 
now the main offering. 

This is a huge bar that the small shops can't even begin to 
touch.
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 
95959 
(530) 
401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com  
 



 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith 
Cronin
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:39 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP 
Sales


Jessie

Great question and it spawned a few additional questions.

1. How many on the list here do urban only or 97% on 
grid vs off grid systems?
2. How many urban solar folks today, have segued to 
mostly micro inverters vs string inverters?
3. How many wrenches here do mostly battery 
systems?
4. How many folks here have sales engineers or sell 
systems themselves?
5. If you have a sales team, what are they allowed to 
do? Go on the roof and measure? Open an electrical 
panel/meter?

Reason I ask, is the trends seem to be shifting in our 
area and perhaps because its more urban. Sales folks are trained to do 
preliminary work- google earth/pictometry etc. 
Then have a baseline for system sizing, prior to the 
site visit. They contact prospects and go over their needs and get the electric 
bill prior to the visit.
If the prospects express all of the buying signs or its 
a referral- hot to trot, many companies here will give a proposal within the 
second visit, pending the electrician/pre inspection to dial in the electrical 
and roof verification items to ensure whats being proposed can actually be 
installed for final proposal presentation. Many companies don't allow sales 
folks on roofs or near electrical panels for many reasons including liability 
and lack of background.

So, if you're a small company- all electricians, so to speak, this test and 
the supporting framework would be very helpful.
For alot of the larger companies- and I mean over 5-10+ sales force, I 
believe the structure of how they approach prospects has shifted over the last 
couple of years, especially in light of micro inverters and their relative 
design simplicity. I believe this trend will continue, as we see more and more 
micro or AC output modules entering into the marketplace.

For the folks that are doing off grid stuff, I've always found it to be a 
more unique niche, as its a very technical sale and requires a deepe

[RE-wrenches] String Vs Micro

[Keith Cronin]

As I look out on the market place here, it must be close to 100 to 1, micro 
inverter installations vs string on residential systems.

Don't know what the primary reason is, but I sense simplicity, as there are 
less "wrenches" out there, so to speak.
The electricians and mechanical type folks I work with seem to get into a 
groove and just go for it.
Sure, sometimes their biggest challenge seems to be interference due to the 
communications signals, but that appears to be the only hurdle.

The more companies I work with or talk to, say the additional cost of micros is 
worth it, as opposed to training someone on string sizing and the concern for 
DC wiring mistakes.
Perhaps its also due to the fact that we have smaller roofs and the need to be 
on multiple roofs, where other places around the country can put the system on 
one roof and be done?

The perception of people that have micros seem to be bullish on the ability to 
know what is going on and when things are or aren't working and receive status.

Alot of the leasing companies seem to be shying away from micros and perhaps 
its cost or the future liability of sending wrenches out to swap devices?

What are wrenches seeing elsewhere?
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] BIPV for commercial

[Keith Cronin]

Perhaps another solution- using a roofing company to spray a layer of foam and 
then a silicone over that.
They offer a 20 year warranty.
You can first install your mounting equipment and they'll foam around them.
Its about 1" thick for the foam and 50mm-100mm for the silicone.

Costs about $5 sq ft.

Less expensive than hydrostop and it seems more effective.

Keep the single crystalline Marco! Enjoy the energy density..
 
Aloha, Keith



 From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
To: 'RE-wrenches'  
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 2:47 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] BIPV for commercial
 

 
I have a client with a big commercial warehouse (metal-framed).
 
He needs to replace his metal roof and is asking whether I
know if any kind of reputable, listed product might work which would act as
both the roof membrane AND PV array.
 
That way the cost of re-roofing may be somewhat covered by tax
credits.
 
Anyone know of any such thing that might make sense for a 110
kW system?
 
Thanks,
marco
 
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[RE-wrenches] Apparent power

[Keith Cronin]

Hi gang

Anyone work with these folks yet? http://www.apparent.com/

Their product seems like it will be an incremental step in solving what I 
believe to be a challenge in the future- too much non firm generation on the 
nations grids.

Hawaii could be the first canary in the coal mine, but I'm sure there are other 
markets that are reaching or have reached this apex as well.

Just this past SPI event, I recall the Germans are using the Austrians- 
Fronius- to embed SCADA control of the output of the inverters to allow for 
grid voltage stability.
This inherently assists the grid operators and allows them to throttle the 
watts on the system, while simultaneously stabilizing the infrastructure.

I'm sure the next step here would be UL as the current topography doesn't allow 
for this architecture within the inverter, but in speaking to Fronuis in 
October, it seemed like it was a software change and not a part that needed to 
be swapped out. Take the idea one step further, my prediction- within 5 years, 
many will go off grid on the residential side, as a storage means will be 
birthed that is cost effective, stable, reliable and user friendly. Whole 
businesses will revolve around storage and the PPA/lease model will seep into 
this sector as well.

Bill Brooks- do you have any visibility, sage feedback on this idea, as you 
might be close to this topic and offer perspective, technologically speaking.
 
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[RE-wrenches] Surge Protection- PV

[Keith Cronin]

Hi folks

What kinds of products are you using for residential and commercial surge 
protection for your PV systems?

Have a few clients that have been asking.

Is it at the service, using products like this:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electrical/products/surge_protectiondevice/photovoltaic_spd.videos.html


I always wonder what it protects and the fine print in the event of a lightning 
storm to someone hitting a pole on the street and sending the surge back into 
the property.
 
Aloha,


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Combating requests for itemized PV pricing

[Keith Cronin]

Wrenches

Its ironic this topic came up for me yesterday as well. As we have approached 
the day where everything is online- pricing of our widgets from various 
sources, its challenging for wrenches to not be transparent or to explain you 
want to make X% margin on widgets.

But if someone buys things elsewhere, what are our options?
For the on-grid market, pricing has dropped precipitously for the cost per watt 
of installed products and the urban solar business could be more crowded than 
the off-grid market, as the specialized skills for understanding batteries is 
usually absent from the on-grid market, ratio and proportion to the installer 
base.
How about a novel approach:
1. Charge what your time is worth. Determine how many hours in a year you can 
"sell" your services.  My rule of thumb is 75% efficient- 6 out of 8 hours you 
can be doing productive work. This varies depending upon if you're a 1 person 
company or have a staff. The 1 person shops can probably sell their time- 1000 
hours a year. Add in all of your overhead costs in a year and come up with this 
number and spread it across the amount of time you can sell in a year.
2. You can then come up with a daily rate for doing work or a half day rate.
3. Have language in your contract to address installing other peoples equipment 
and if their are issues with it, then there will be a cost to them for parts 
that don't work or are DOA out of the box etc.

At its core- it might seem counter-intuitive but sell your time and focus less 
on making a margin on widgets. Many industries, like legal, accounting or your 
dentist- make money selling their time vs widgets. Perhaps we are close to that 
time in our industry.

In doing PPA's and other structured finance projects lately, we get squeezed as 
well. Investors want to know how the costs can be more transparent to making 
funding a project a dream to a reality. They want EPC's to make money but want 
to know how to make the economics work. Today, this could also be similar for 
the smaller projects. Some people just want to do their own shopping. Yes, it 
can be frustrating, as you find yourself being the engineer for them and invest 
alot of time and often it is free consulting. My suggestion would be to 
cultivate the relationship, see if there is a fit and have a contract for a 
labor only aspect of the opportunity. I recognize its not something we've been 
usually associated to, but thinking about this further, is one solution to this 
change on the playing field.

So, I'd suggest line itemization of everything. The key is for us to know how 
long things take, in general to install things and know those times associated 
to those activities.
Layer on top your overhead % and profit % and any local tax to come up with 
your selling price.

If you'd like any help with this, contact me off list.

 
Aloha,


Keith



 From: Jason Szumlanski 
To: RE-wrenches  
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:18 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combating requests for itemized PV pricing
 

We are getting more and more people calling that want to provide their own 
equipment and have us install it. It's frustrating, because usually they are 
looking at prices for materials that either I would not consider selling, or 
would not meet the mounting requirements of the Florida Building Code. Of 
course, they do not understand and consider all of the other costs.

In addition, lots of people are looking for a breakdown of prices (down to the 
line item - nuts and bolts). I generally refuse to provide it because it 
inevitably leads to the response "I can get that module/inverter online 
cheaper." The "I need to make money" response leads to "yeah, but you must be 
getting better prices than I see online" argument. And so on, and so on... I'm 
sure you've heard it...

I've resorted recently to just providing a percentage breakdown, stating that 
the price is roughly 25% each:
* PV Modules
* Inverters and Electrical
* Mounting System
* Design/Engineering, Permitting, Labor, Overhead, and ProfitAny other 
tips out there to answer the request for line item details?
Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

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[RE-wrenches] PV in Pakistan

[Keith Cronin]

If you do PV in Pakistan, please contact me off list.


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[RE-wrenches] Point of connection

[Keith Cronin]

Hello

With the growth of the solar industry coupled with the generous incentives now 
offered on fed part of the equation, we are seeing some trends here and 
wondering what the approach has been in other areas. What kind of feedback are 
you receiving from the AHJ?

There are some integrators who now are installing "systems" meaning, multiple 
small inverters that are married to smaller arrays as opposed to one large 
array with one large inverter. 

So, it is quite conceivable to have, for example, 3- 3000 W SMA inverters on a 
customers home. So, the point of connection issues arise. When you look at 
690.64B, it speaks to the 120% of the busbar rating.

What are folks doing in other areas, for this above example to address the 
mechanical/electrical challenges associated with this situation, when if you 
had 1- 200 amp residential service? There is alot of discussion, like 
installing a 125 amp rated subpanel; interuppting the feeder from the electric 
service and installing a 225 amp panel with a higher rated buss (hard to find 
or custom made thru Cutler Hammer or others) etc.

We can also see a trend using the enphase products as well, but not as much 
pronounced. It could be conceivable for a client to want to build their system 
up over a few years and have 15, 175 watt panels on a circuit (2P15 amp) and 
grow the system up to lets say, 45, 175 watt panels (3-2P15 amp). Same 
situation, different inverter manufacturer. My sense is this trend will 
continue for the forseeable future, and alot of wrenches will find orphaned 
systems out there and we should look at ways to address point of connection 
issues that are bound to present themselves.

Thanks

Keith



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[RE-wrenches] Solar Pathfinder vs Solmetric

[Keith Cronin]

Hello gang

Was wondering, who is using each (or if you are not, I'd like to 
learn/understand) and the features/benefits that you see where one is more 
desirable than the other.

Are some folks bypassing using these products and looking at empirical data, 
and if there are no obstructions- trees, buildings, chimneys, etc., using 
annualized averages to come up with production #'s of "sun" hours per day 
performance based upon certain criteria?

Also, after this projection of performance, are we checking in with our clients 
to verify performance?

Does anyone believe products like enphase with their monitoring capabilities, 
will help bridge the gap on estimated vs actuals and help us build a database 
of real world conditions (personally, I do and applaud monitoring)?

My sense, is as we move towards a more performance based model (meaning the 
threat of net metering being eliminated) through channels like FIT and CA 
modeling, how is the rest of industry prepared to address this in states that 
are not as sophisticated with their programs? When we see the world financial 
challenges get resolved, and this time next year, the stock market is 
rehabilitated, invariably, the market goes higher and so does energy costs. 
Couple this with the dialog of grants in lieu of tax credits, i.e., getting the 
$ in our clients hands sooner (as soon as the Treasury sorts this out), there 
will be more interest in performance, in my opinion. Preparing for it, is the 
genesis of the questions...as well as the utilities involvement. They could 
easily (but perhaps not quickly) get into the rooftop business- they have the 
infrastructure, billing, customers. etc., in place to really get into this 
market. 

Thanks

Keith



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[RE-wrenches] Solyndra

[Keith Cronin]

http://www.solyndra.com/

Anyone have any feedback on these folks and their products?


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solyndra

[Keith Cronin]

William

I appreciate the sentiment. To understand the genesis of the query, we must 
look to the analogousness of watching Sunday nights 60 Minutes TV program. 
Every week, for years, there are commercials on relating to all sorts of 
pharmacology which inspires an individual to ask their doctor (and sometimes 
educate them) about using such and such a product for their "condition". The 
public at times has more info than the doctor..Knowing a few doctors, they 
have expressed this to me over the years and it "encourages" them to do some 
research as they get caught off guard

The same holds true for Solyndra (our SolViagra/Flowmax etc.). Customers 
stumble upon this type of product, and pelt us with questions. I pinged 
Solyndra a few times via email and phone with no reply. Seems they are angling 
towards the roofing contracting community, sewing up relationships with 
Carlilse, the roofing manu as a channel for distribution. So, trying to be 
helpful, and doing my (our) best to dig into the details and provide some 
feedback for the query. The enthusiasm of virtually zero roof penetrations and 
all of the other claims, whether substantiated or not, require some 
research..

As we all have looked at a Popular Science as youths, there will always be a 
new solar promising technology to breach the scene and it is our fiduciary 
responsibility to identify the pros and cons to support our industry in the 
determination of its efficacy. If we don't at least discover what is around the 
corner, we have the propensity to miss the trend. Sure we need to concern 
ourselves with longevity, but the MTBF of even the enphase products is unproven 
and accelerated, but is very promising and catching alot of positive waves. 
Even at 90 cents a watt installed, almost double what a comprable string 
inverter is being peddled for, the perceived features and benefits have caught 
alot of attention of the end user and appear willing to fork over a premium for 
the telemetry and diagnostics. To me, this is an excellent accountability 
mechanism- from the manu of the modules to the integrators design as well as 
historical harvesting of data to support a
 future world of smart meters and other spine tingling technologies not even 
hallucinated about to date





From: Bill Brooks 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 6:57:41 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solyndra

 
Keith,
 
Since it seems quite quiet on this subject,
I have to ask why a SHARP guy like you would consider such a rounded or 
Solindrical
technology. Actually, I have heard through the grape vine that their products
have an interesting performance characteristic in that their output looks
similar to a single-axis tracker—which makes sense—sounds good.
 
The must larger issue than the short-term
performance of the product is the longevity. Nobody has a clue on that item—not
even the manufacturer. I’m sure they have put it through torture tests,
but the real world is a different story. Not sure they have seen the sun for
more than a few years. I hope it works out for them and it becomes a viable
part of the PV industry. I, for one, will be cheering from the sidelines.
 
Bill.
 
 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009
12:05 PM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solyndra
 
http://www.solyndra.com/

Anyone have any feedback on these folks and their products?


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[RE-wrenches] Metrics

[Keith Cronin]

Hello

Do any of you keep score, in regards to the metrics on productivity in the 
field?

What I am asking, is, what are you using for labor hours, for a vanilla grid 
tied residential system? (keeping in mind there are variants, but there also 
are averages)

For example, X amount of people, for X amount of hours, to install 1kW of solar 
= X amount of people hours/per kW.

Thanks

Keith



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metrics

[Keith Cronin]

Hi Allan

I can appreciate the sensitivity of the data, however, in most trades, there 
are generalized pre-determined time allocations for activities/tasks. If you 
have ever looked at any electrical estimation software, for example, it 
outlines everything in these types of increments and is widely accepted even at 
the federal level, for government type work, especially under the auspice of 
change orders. Even our government needed a datum point to begin to have a 
conversation.

By sharing, we all can improve our operational efficiencies, as it will become 
more difficult to make income from selling materials, as a percentage of sales, 
due to the commoditization of our industry. Pretty soon, most major electrical 
supply houses to Grainger will be stocking panels to BOS. We, as an industry, 
will be needing to polish our operations and clearly get better at the 
execution of the installation.

If this venue is unsavory for most, I can be contacted off list, as you 
suggested.





From: Allan Sindelar 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:59:22 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Metrics

 
Keith,
As this forum is available to the public,
are you sure you want to address this issue on list? Maybe better to request
replies off-list, with an offer in return to send collated results to those who
contribute.
Allan
 
 


 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009
11:53 AM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metrics
 
Hello

Do any of you keep score, in regards to the metrics on productivity in the
field?

What I am asking, is, what are you using for labor hours, for a vanilla grid
tied residential system? (keeping in mind there are variants, but there also
are averages)

For example, X amount of people, for X amount of hours, to install 1kW of solar
= X amount of people hours/per kW.

Thanks

Keith


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Re: [RE-wrenches] A Wrench's computer

[Keith Cronin]

I also segued to a mac last fall and installed VMWare to bridge the PC 
experience. Overall, I would recommend the transition.
There is also incentive, if you live in a metro area- to get training at the 
Apple store- it is $100 for the year and if you can carve out time, you can 
take 1 lesson a week on a host of topics to get up to speed rather quickly.

I believe in the next 5 years, we will be agnostic on platforms, and we will be 
primarily web based, as we want everything on the go. It (wireless) will be 
inexpensive and ubiquitous in larger populaces and my vision for larger mesh 
networks will cover all of us to connect more readily. It is amazing, Get 
Smart's shoe phone to where we are today is extraordinary and the innovation 
will only accelerate..
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL9Wu2kWwSY

Back to the mac- very robust machine architecture and relatively simple to use 
and setup anything from wireless networking to installing a printer. Their time 
machine feature also deserves mentioning- it does incremental backups- meaning, 
it will take, like a video of your activities and save the activities as they 
occur. So, if you are working on a proposal, and doing alot of revisions, it 
will archive them on a time line. If you ever wonder what you where working on, 
lets say Monday, you can go back in time, and find it. Very slick, as PC's, I 
believe, don't have this functionality to date.

Lastly, on the backup and if you still have a PC- I would highly suggest 
subscribing to www.mozy.com for your laptop and office server. Same theorem as 
above- incremental backups, when you are not working on your machine- to the 
web. I did this a few months ago- have almost 100GB of data archived there. Did 
take alot of time (weeks) to upload, but it is all there, in a directory to 
grab anything when I need it. Lets face it, when we do backups, like at the 
office, we take either some DVD's or a hard drive, back and forth every week. 
This eliminates this completely. Also, I found a coupon code for their service- 
type in the word NEXT into the box before you subscribe and it is $46 a year to 
back up everything for one machine. The office/server flavored subscription is 
alot more, but this also frees up your time to focus on your business.

Another great wrench tool list addition!





From: Kurt Albershardt 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 7:19:16 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] A Wrench's computer

As yet another long-time PC veteran (after IBM SNA and PDP-11s) with way too 
much Windows internals experience, I also just purchased my first Mac.  
Installed Parallels to support Quickbooks (still no integrated payroll on their 
Mac version.)

I have a maxed-out MacBook Pro as a desktop replacement but I will say that the 
integrated graphics (9400M) is quite adequate even for large SketchUp models - 
so the plain MacBook looks like a heckuva deal given its monoblock case design 
and low price.  The MagSafe power connector is pure genius.

If you click on the new trackpads with two fingers, you get the right-click 
context menu all us Windows power users miss.  The other shortcut it took me 
awhile to find was  + <~> which is equivalent to  +  in 
Windows (move to next window in a multiple document interface.)





On 4/10/09 9:56 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar wrote:
> Joel,
> After 28 years of business computing dating from my George Morrow CPM 
> machine, I purchased my first Mac, a MackBook Pro, 2.4GHz. After 6 months, I 
> have very mixed feelings about it. I love the battery life and simplicity of 
> features and included programs. Although I am still in a steep learning 
> curve, there are many things that frustrate me daily. NO right click button 
> means you need to plug in a mouse so you can use the many options accessible 
> by a right click. I have my old Sharp laptop PC on the other desk and find 
> that I often scoot my rolling chair to it to quickly accomplish something. 
> Perhaps it is just because it is familiar.
> 
> The MacBook seems rugged, has a fairly bright screen although my Sharp has a 
> sunlight readable, 400 NIT backlight. I am sure once I learn, or just put up 
> with, the intricateness of the Mac, it will be just fine. Here's a really 
> positive note: It has never crashed or locked up...yet. What a feeling!
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> 
> On Apr 10, 2009, at 8:26 AM, Joel Davidson wrote:
> 
>> Wrenches,
>> Some Wrenches include their notebook computer among their most valued tools. 
>> My 2001 IBM T23 notebook has served me well in the office and on the road, 
>> but it is getting a little long in the tooth. What notebook computer do you 
>> all recommend? As always, thank you very much for your valuable advice.
>> Best regards,
>> Joel Davidson
>> ___

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