Re: [RE-wrenches] Driving Point Impedance of the Point of Connection of a Grid-tied PV System

[Jeff Irish]

We usually measure this input resistance into the grid (it's not a full 
impedance measurement) at the MSP lugs.  Experience has shown that less than 
150 mohm is usually OK, above 250 mohm starts to get troublesome.  The cause 
for a high resistance is most often undersized conductors from the utility 
transformer to the meter and MSP.  Depending on your utility and area, these 
conductors may be the responsibility of the homeowner or the utility.  If the 
resistance is much above 250 mohm you'll find the voltage seen at the MSP will 
vary widely with load, whether or not a PV system is present.

Jeff Irish

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 12:07 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Driving Point Impedance of the Point of Connection ofa 
Grid-tied PV System

I wanted to share with the Wrenches a post-install measurement that we make
and file along with the other routine measurements (e.g. V(+) to V(-), V(+)
to Gnd, V(-) to Gnd, Pac, time or date, date, ambient temp, etc).

This is the AC voltage at the distribution panel with and without the
inverter operating. For example, let's say we have a 5.5 kW PV system. A
clear day in late Fall around Noon might result in 4 kW-ac. We measure the
voltage at the distribution panel with both system(s) operating and then
throw the AC disco and re-measure. We typically see something around 3 Vac
difference.

Among other things this measurement provides evidence that a grid tied
inverter raises its output voltage/current to the point needed to inject its
AC power through the back-fed circuit breaker onto the panel (and from there
into the house loads and possibly the grid). 

One can calculate the "effective resistance" at the backfed breaker, using
the formula:
R=(2*Vac*dV/dP), where Vac~240V, dV~3V and dP~4000W. In this example the
result is 0.36 ohms. And this is close to what we see for relatively new
200A 120/250 split phase panel.

>From our way of thinking, this number represents the impedance seen at the
back-fed solar breaker which is in turn a function of the resistance of the
breaker, the contact resistance of the breaker-buss connection, the
resistance of the panel distribution buss, the total resistance of the house
loads and the utility feed. The lower this number is the better. We have
seen as much as 1.2 ohms in an old 100A Zinsco panel, and this causes us
concern.

Is anyone aware of an article which discusses the effective circuit model of
a back-fed, grid-tied PV system? Or the inferences that one can make from
this measurement? What is the normal range of this impedance; or any other
similar measurements (such as taking these measurements at the L1-L2
terminal bock of the inverter proper which would include the voltage drop
for the inverter-panel circuit)?

- Peter


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] I Need a Sharp SunVista Manual

[Jeff Irish]

Brian,

 

I have one but it's a big file and I don't want to overload everyone's
mailboxes.  Email me off-line at j...@hvce.com

 

Jeff Irish

Hudson Valley Clean Energy

and Adirondack Solar

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian
Sipp
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 4:21 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] I Need a Sharp SunVista Manual

 

I just got off the phone with the worlds worst customer (dis)service
rep. at Sharp.  It really calls into question whether I want to sell any
more of Sharp modules, if this is how they treat their past customers.  

 

Does anyone have a PDF of the Sharp SunVista manual?  The only thing I
find online, or Sharp would provide, is a 2 page cut sheet. 

 

 

Brian M. Sipp
First Source Solar Systems
www.FirstSourceSolar.com <http://www.firstsourcesolar.com/>  

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] The big valley

[Jeff Irish]

A similar story... we were recently called in to fix roof leaks certainly 
caused by one of our roof systems.  The homeowner was understandably upset with 
water stains on the new ceiling drywall of the old house they had just moved 
into.  Looking in the attic, we could see water stains and even moisture drops 
on the underside of the south roof... and also the north facing roof and the 
glass and frames of the attic windows on the east and west gable ends.  Seems 
the contractor had not installed a vapor barrier between the conditioned second 
floor and the unconditioned attic, and this being New York in the winter, warm 
moist air was rising into the cold attic and condensing everywhere.  But we 
were the first ones called, not the GC.
Same moral: don't be quick to accept blame for a roof leak.  Investigate all 
possibilities.
Jeff Irish
Hudson Valley Clean Energy


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 6:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] The big valley

Friends:

Two weeks ago we had a torrential downpour in our area-- about 4 inches 
overnight.  I received a call Sunday morning from a client who we had installed 
a roof mount system for almost 5 years ago.  Their roof was leaking!

I hurried right over in the rain and sure enough, there was a leak right below 
one of our feet placements.  I inspected the caulking, and though it was not as 
pretty as I might have done myself, there was no apparent leak path.  Seeing no 
other apparent reason for the leak, I assumed it was through our penetration.  
I re-sealed the two penetrations nearest the leak and promised the home owner I 
would take care of all repairs..

That evening the client called and the roof was leaking again.  This seemed 
unlikely since I had carefully sealed my penetrations.  Upon further 
inspection, there was a valley near the leak and there was a tiny little sand 
dam in the valley.

The next clear day, I hired a local, large, well known, reputable roofing 
contractor to deconstruct the valley.  My arrangement with the client was:  If 
the leak was not caused by my work, I pay nothing.  If I caused the leak, I pay 
for everything, (including ceiling repair).  It turns out the valley was 
installed incorrectly with many deficiencies:  There was no paper in the 
valley, there were nails through the sheet metal, there was no mastic and the 
sheet metal was allowed to bulge up to allow a sub-valley away from the actual 
center of the valley and there was a hole in the paper right above the leak.

This same thing happened to us a year ago on a tile roof.  We were able to 
deconstruct the valley ourselves and the roofing estimator who had originally 
blamed us came right back over and verified we were not to blame.

I am relating this to the Wrenches list because any of you could have this 
happen to you.  The moral:  Don't be quick to accept blame for a roof leak.  
Inspect valleys carefully for debris.  Shingles or tile should not encroach too 
closely to the center of the valley.  Look for mastic under the shingles.  
Don't be afraid to lift tiles and look for water staining and debris trails.

Good luck out there!

William Miller



William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
<http://millersolar.com/>License No. C-10-773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

[Jeff Irish]

I believe Massachusetts has this, which is called "community net metering".  
New York State does not allow it, but a bill is in the assembly and senate this 
session called "virtual net metering" whereby a single customer with multiple 
meters can interconnect to one and apply excess generation credits to the 
others.  The target market is counties, towns, cities, large companies.  Not 
quite what you have in mind, Larry, but a step in the right direction.

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
and Adirondack Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com<mailto:j...@hvce.com>
Renewable Energy Systems
Solar, Wind, Geothermal
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Energy 
Solutions
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar

Washington State has a very good program which I believe is a kind of FIT 
Community solar thing that pays over $1.00/kW generated.
Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com<http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/>

"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."


--- On Thu, 4/7/11, Dave Click  wrote:

From: Dave Click 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] community solar
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Thursday, April 7, 2011, 1:05 PM
If you have a muni then it's possible, but I'd guess that with most
investor-owned utilities they'd just laugh in your face. There are a few
utilites out there that have done this- I think that Portland, OR and
Seattle have this and we're working on it here in Orlando too.

These links should help:
http://votesolar.org/2010/12/community-solar-coming-to-a-town-near-you/
http://votesolar.org/communitysolar/
http://irecusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/IREC-Community-Renewables-Report-11-16-10_FINAL.pdf

Larry Brown wrote:
> wrenches.
>
> I have had several inquires into this possible scenario. anybody have
> any experience doing this with their local utility?
>
> several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put
> up a solar array either on an existing building that has excellent solar
> access or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window. the system
> is set up so that it is configured into sub arrays with each sub array
> having an inverter and a kwh meter that records the output of that sub
> array. each of the sub arrays is designated (by agreement and the proper
> paper work) to a particular family based on how much they invested into
> the system. the output of the whole system is then grid tied and all of
> the kwh go directly to the utility. it is then just a matter of
> accounting in that each of the sub arrays kwh's produced is deducted
> from the kwh's used by that particular customer on their home or
> business utility bill. So the customer either has a credit that is
> carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the next utility bill.
>
> The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized
> local location.
> It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
> And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
> Much like Community Supported Agriculture
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] tax credit on batteries

[Jeff Irish]

A commercial customer of ours, who is an attorney, investigated this at length 
with the IRS because he was pursuing the 30% in form of a grant.  The wording 
he got back was that if the batteries were 100% charged by solar then yes.  So 
if you can prove that the PV generates more annual energy than that needed to 
charge and keep the batteries charged, that battery charging is the priority, 
and only excess energy is sent to other loads and the grid, then maybe that's 
compliant?  At this point I think I'm supposed to say that I'm an engineer and 
not qualified to be giving tax advice.  Hope this helps some.

Jeff Irish, PE
Hudson Valley Clean Energy
and Adirondack Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:06 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] tax credit on batteries

All my OG clients have taken the 30% fed and no issues here.

Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc
E - d...@solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076
web - www.solarwork.com

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through action.

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hill
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 12:44 PM
To: RE-wrenches RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] tax credit on batteries

Can anyone tell me if batteries are covered by the federal tax credit? Thanks.

Jonathan Hill, senior system design engineer
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 30th year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  <mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com>
world wide web:  <http://www.sierrasolar.com>
Check out our 2 minute video at: 
http://www.sierrasolar.com/articles.php?article_id=42
[cid:677025320@14042011-0FB1]

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery idle losses; Deka AGM

[Jeff Irish]

William,

I did a 2 year long study on a Sunny Island 5048 grid-intertie battery back-up 
system and found the SI and batteries used about 1.5kWh per day in "overhead".  
The batteries were 8 Concorde AGMs 212Ah C20.  Hope that helps.  

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
and Adirondack Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com
Renewable Energy Systems
Solar, Wind, Geothermal
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer




-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, 
Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 2:36 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery idle losses; Deka AGM

Hi William,

You asked how much energy the "battery" is expect to consume. At 300 to 1200 
watts perhaps you mean how much the XW's consume from the battery? The idle 
current? Please clarify. The battery does not consume power except for self 
discharge which is very small. If healthy, the 8A8D will have about 2% per 
month self discharge, tested by open circuit voltage. As it ages, expect that 
to increase. 

If you have a defective 8A8D battery(s), it will usually exhibit high surface 
temperature and possible valve opening during the end of the absorb cycle (57.6 
volts @ 77°). Check the current going to each battery. You can do this with two 
clamp on DC current meters on either side of the battery in test. Current 
should be about 0.5 to 1 amp across the battery at the end of absorb. High 
current and temperature indicate a defective battery. This battery(s) will act 
as a load and will lower the net bank capacity at night.  BTW, I have never 
been able to recover an AGM from this state.

Now...some bad news. The MK 8A8D is a Deka AGM battery. We have sold and 
installed these 8D's for many years with few failures. Lately we are having far 
too many Deka's going bad in just over 1 year. Since it only has a 1 year 
replacement, my customers are VERY upset. After speaking with my Deka rep. last 
week and I have decided to advise customers to not purchase the Deka 8D's.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Oct 31, 2011, at 8:20 PM, William Miller wrote:

> Friends:
> 
> I have looked on the on-line literature but I can not find this answer:  I 
> have a client with 16 MK 8A8D batteries in 48 volt configuration feeding 3 XW 
> inverters.  How much energy will these batteries be expected to consume at 
> night?  We simulated darkness measured a wide range of values, anywhere from 
> 300 watts to 1200 watts.  Has anyone measured or calculated this?
> 
> Thanks in advance...
> 
> William

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Re: [RE-wrenches] federal tax credit

[Jeff Irish]

Interpretations and rulings are also a big component of how tax laws are 
implemented.  National SEIA has an excellent tax manual written by some very 
good tax attorneys that is available to members.  In my experience most 
accountants (and installers) need this kind of direction because the subject is 
so new and specialized.

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
and Adirondack Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com<mailto:j...@hvce.com>
Renewable Energy Systems
Solar, Wind, Geothermal
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer




From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Johnson
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 8:21 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] federal tax credit
Importance: High

Todd,

See IRC sections 25D and also 136 if there is a utility paid incentive, as any 
utility paid incentive may affect how 25D is applied.
You may also want to see Sections 280A(d)(1), 280A(d)(2), and 280A(f)(1) for 
the definitions.

Jamie Johnson
NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer

General Manager
SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
[cid:image001.jpg@01CCA04D.C5F73420]


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] federal tax credit
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com<mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com>
Date: Fri, November 11, 2011 12:58 am
To: "RE-wrenches" 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Wrenches,

I got the following information from a customer who ran the federal tax credit 
by her accountant. As a double check... is this correct?

Thanks,

Todd


My accountant wrote:

The taxpayer claiming the credit must be the owner of the home.  The value of 
these credits adjust basis for sale of home calculations.  The residency test 
for this credit is the same as what is used in determining ownership and 
exclusion of gain on the sale of a primary residence.
The credit cannot be claimed on a commercial property, rental property or by a 
tenant, and the taxpayer claiming the credit must be the owner of the home 
which is being used as their primary residence.



Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.

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[RE-wrenches] Small Off-Grid Inverter Recommendation

[Jeff Irish]

Any recommendations from those of you with extensive off grid experience for a 
small inverter, sine wave, 500-1000 watt range 120 vac output, 12 or 24 VDC 
nominal input?  I'm looking for something with low standby losses when there 
are no loads, and high reliability.  Thanks!

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
and Adirondack Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com<mailto:j...@hvce.com>
Renewable Energy Systems
Solar, Wind, Geothermal
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters

[Jeff Irish]

ns.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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-- 
*Jeff Irish, PE* | VP & General Manager |  *sun*common
13 Hook Road Rhinebeck, NY 12572
845-876-3767 x 110 | jeff.irish @suncommon.com
 |  www.suncommon.com
<https://suncommon.com/get-the-most/>

SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and
brighter future – and renewable energy is where it starts.

Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities.

Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business
as a force for good.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] solar roof lift experience?

[Jeff Irish]

Hi Geoff,

We picked up one of them last fall.  Kind of bulky, takes up a lot of
truck space, and takes a full hour to set up.  The angle of tilt for the
top leg is limited, making it less than optimum for getting modules onto
low pitched steel roofs.  And the gear at the elbow used to set the tilt
is a little soft and showing early wear.  But for larger jobs with a
larger crew it really moves the modules up safely and quickly in batches
when you are ready for them on the roof.  On those jobs I'm convinced
it's a big fatigue reducer and safety and productivity improvement.
Otherwise it is usually sitting in storage in the shop.

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com
Renewable Energy Systems
Solar, Wind, Geothermal
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
IGSHPA Certified Geothermal Installer

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Geoff
Greenfield
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 4:07 PM
To: 'RE Marketing for home scale RE industry'; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar roof lift experience?

Hey gang-  anyone have any success (or horror) stories with regard to
panel lifting equipment?  I have considered a home-brew cart on a
ladder,
looked at some products made for comp shingles, and saw some
fancy-schmancy European stuff at the shows.  Just today I was hit with a
marketing email from this company:

Check us out at:  <http://www.boeckeramericas.com/> BoeckerUSA.com 

Anyone been down this road? 

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
President

Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State street, Unit 25
Athens, Ohio 45701
(740) 597-3111   fax: (740)597-1548
www.third-sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed

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Re: [RE-wrenches] solar roof lift experience?

[Jeff Irish]

Not cheap, $5,700 delivered.  But definitely cheaper than someone
falling off a ladder near the end of the day because they are tired.  I
should have said it's also useful on two story residentials with a steep
pitch.

Jeff

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of robert
ellison
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:49 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar roof lift experience?

 

It is an interesting piece, can you tell us what it cost? Probably not
worth it on the small jobs but could be a back saver on the big ones. 

 

Bob

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Jeff Irish  wrote:

Hi Geoff,

We picked up one of them last fall.  Kind of bulky, takes up a lot of
truck space, and takes a full hour to set up.  The angle of tilt for the
top leg is limited, making it less than optimum for getting modules onto
low pitched steel roofs.  And the gear at the elbow used to set the tilt
is a little soft and showing early wear.  But for larger jobs with a
larger crew it really moves the modules up safely and quickly in batches
when you are ready for them on the roof.  On those jobs I'm convinced
it's a big fatigue reducer and safety and productivity improvement.
Otherwise it is usually sitting in storage in the shop.

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com
Renewable Energy Systems
Solar, Wind, Geothermal
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
IGSHPA Certified Geothermal Installer


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Geoff
Greenfield
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 4:07 PM
To: 'RE Marketing for home scale RE industry'; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar roof lift experience?

Hey gang-  anyone have any success (or horror) stories with regard to
panel lifting equipment?  I have considered a home-brew cart on a
ladder,
looked at some products made for comp shingles, and saw some
fancy-schmancy European stuff at the shows.  Just today I was hit with a
marketing email from this company:

Check us out at:  <http://www.boeckeramericas.com/> BoeckerUSA.com

Anyone been down this road?

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
President

Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State street, Unit 25
Athens, Ohio 45701
(740) 597-3111   fax: (740)597-1548
www.third-sun.com <http://www.third-sun.com/> 

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed

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Re: [RE-wrenches] utility line voltage issues

[Jeff Irish]

Peter, 

Yes, grid impedance is another variable, and one that we can not easily
control.  The impedance looking into the grid can be high due to loose
connections or undersized conductors or both.  In some cases we've had
to have the utility out to check their pole top and meter connections.
>From my experience, you should be OK with 100 mohms or less grid
impedance (ignoring inductance and capacitance here), and will probably
be in trouble over 150 mohms with a larger residential system if the
utility voltage wanders on the high end of ANSI-A.  I think the highest
we've seen is 250 mohms on a mixed overhead and buried service.  

Jeff Irish
Hudson Valley Clean Energy

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 2:00 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] utility line voltage issues

One thing I have read during this thread, is the voltage rise at the
inverter output required to "sell to the grid". I have heard all sorts
of
numbers from "less than a volt RMS" to "2-3 volts". As an engineer, I
would
expect the number to depend on the AC current being exported and the
impedance of the grid seen from the distribution panel.

Let's say we want to export 2,400 W-ac at 240 V-ac, or 10 A-ac, and the
dynamic impedance of the grid is 0.1 ohm. The voltage rise needed to
push
that 10 A onto the grid is 1 V-ac (i.e. 241 V-ac).

I am going to do a test on our system today, monitoring the L1-L2
voltage at
the inverter breaker and cycle the PV system on and off. Should be
interesting! 

One other point: since IEEE929 and IEEE1547 require the inverter to shut
down within 16 ms (one full period of 60 Hz) -- correct? -- what is the
typical averaging time (Tavg) for a typical RMS voltmeter (the "M=mean"
in
RMS)? If the voltage excursion occurs between 0.16mS and a fraction of
Tavg,
then the RMS will miss the event. Seems to me, we have to have a peak
reading voltmeter or something equivalent.

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill
Brooks
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:05 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] utility line voltage issues

William and others,

The standard requirement in IEEE929 and IEEE1547 that is tested in
UL1741 is
+10%/-12%. Admittedly, some utilities, particularly in more rural areas,
may
get close to these limits at times. Just for a little history lesson
that
very few people know about, this happens to be a very hard fought and
won
battle. Initially when IEEE929 (the original PV interconnection
document)
was being written, utilities wanted inverters to trip at +/- 5%.
Realizing
that this would be a death blow to the PV industry, several of us worked
on
the justification for why that did not make sense. We finally won when a
key
utility engineer got on our side and the proper limits went into place.
The
standard also recognizes that special locations, like island grids
(Hawaii)
and other remote grid areas may need even wider ranges to handle typical
fluctuations. Widening voltage windows of the inverter requires utility
permission. 

The voltage limits we have now are good, but most people don't
understand
the rest of the story. As was mentioned in the post, most PV inverters
do
not trip at their actually limits, they typically trip a few percent
inside
those limits (+8%/-10%). This is due to the difficulty of measuring ac
voltage accurately, and the penalty within UL1741, the test standard, if
you
fail one of these limit tests. Since there is no penalty in the standard
for
tripping early, but a large penalty for tripping late, inverter
manufacturers constrain their limits so that they trip within the limits
every time, even if their transducers are at the maximum offset allowed.

That is why it is so important for installers to try to stay within 1%
voltage drop on the ac side. Since the utilities are allowed to go to
the
limits of +/-5% routinely (ANSI Range B), and outside that range for
"short"
periods of time (a few hours is short compared to 8760 hours), a 3%
voltage
drop will cause inverter tripping that is not the utility's fault--it is
the
installers fault.

I'm not defending the utilities, but having responded to dozens of
utility
voltage complaints, I can say that 80-90% of the complaints were the
installer's fault in having too high a voltage drop in their inverter
output
circuits. The legitimate issue is that PV inverters are 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Thermal issues with PVC (was RE: raintite boxmounting angle)

[Jeff Irish]

Hans,

The 2002 NEC 352.12D states that RNMC can't be used where ambient temps
exceed 50C unless listed otherwise.  Most of the PVC we see is listed
otherwise, max 90C right on the conduit.

Jeff 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hans
Frederickson
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:33 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal issues with PVC (was RE: raintite
boxmounting angle)

Picking up on Max's comment about PVC conduit coming apart in the
heat...
PVC is acceptable for use above ground, but is often not a good choice
in
exposed outdoor areas due to thermal issues:

First, PVC conduit is not permitted to be used where ambient
temperatures
exceed 50 degrees C (122 degrees F) per NEC 352.12(D). This limitation
rules
out using PVC on most roofs, although you will occasionally see it used
on
"cool" roofs in our neck of the woods (pacific NW). It follows that PVC
junction boxes would not typically be a good idea on a hot roof unless
they
are specifically listed for higher temperatures.

Second, PVC of any significant length installed outdoors generally will
require an expansion fitting. See NEC 352.44 for details. The rule of
thumb
we use around here is any piece of PVC conduit longer than 10' installed
on
an exterior wall needs an expansion fitting. If you find yourself
needing to
install an expansion fitting, this document from Carlon is very helpful:





From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max
Balchowsky
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 2:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] raintite box mounting angle


We use a high voltage coating to water proof splices, whether they be
wire
nuts (which I don't like to use on DC circuits) or the plastic coated
terminal strips, which I prefer. That's left over from my days as a
traffic
signal technician and splicing loop detectors in below grade pull boxes,
which, more often than not, fill with water in the rain. Joel, I used
the
metal boxes (with the weep hole ) in the desert, but here on the coast
the
plastic boxes seem to work fine, and I've had some installs that are 10
years old (back to the beginning of the ladwp program). What I saw to be
a
problem in the heat was the jobs I was called in to fix (other
contractor's
installs) where they used the plastic PVC conduit on the roof - always
came
loose in the heat. It's designed for underground, not surface work.

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810




From: Joel Davidson 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 1:25:36 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] raintite box mounting angle


I always drill a 3/16-inch weep hole in boxes that could fill up with
water.
Even properly vertically mounted boxes can get water in them. In
Sacramento,
I had some metal conduit homerun from the roof and then down a 25 ft
north
wall. The conduit was like condensing tubes that dripped water into the
DC
disconnect boxes at the bottom of the vertical conduit runs.
 
Joel Davidson




From: Peter Parrish 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 1:11:49 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] raintite box mounting angle



Max,

 

A cautionary tale. We used those puppies for a while until we had a call
back from a customer with a ground fault / off line condition. We found
that
the box had warped, the seal rendered ineffective and the splices
sitting in
0. 5" of water. After thinking about it, we decided that the 140+ deg F
summer roof temperatures probably caused the plastic to warp under
thermal
stress. They probably would work just fine off the roof, but I can't
personally vouch for them.

 

- Peter

 

 


 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max
Balchowsky
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 12:48 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] raintite box mounting angle

 

We've been using the 6x6x4 plastic boxes with a gasket (electrical
section
of most home depot stores)- mount them on their side at the edge of the
array. They are rated for electrical wiring and are water proof and have
been accepted and passed by every electrical inspector we've had over
the
last few years. They are used alot by landscape contractors for j-boxes
in
the ground.

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810

 



From: Bill Brooks 
To: k...@vtsolar.com; RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:08:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] raintite box mounting angle




Kirk,

 

I'm fairly confident 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIP 200 BA19

[Jeff Irish]

Did you try SunWize?

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Chamberlin
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 3:38 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIP 200 BA19

 

Hello Wrenches,

Does anyone know who has Sanyo HIP 200 BA19 modules?

Thanks,




Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer 
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] prevailing wages for PV work

[Jeff Irish]

New York State has not yet identified PV as a separate category for PV 
prevailing wage work nor as a workers comp category, but I wish they would.  It 
also requires the journeyman electrician rates be paid for PV installers, and 
that all workers on the site be paid at the electrician rate even if they just 
unpack modules.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Valley Clean Energy


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org on behalf of Marco
Sent: Mon 10/12/2009 9:29 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] prevailing wages for PV work
 
Does anyone know whether any state, or the feds, has established a
prevailing wage scale for PV work?  Or added a solar electric category or
two under their existing electricians category?
 
thanks,
marco
 
ProVision Solar, Inc. 
Marco Mangelsdorf, President 
69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 
Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 
(808) 969-3281, (808) 934-7462 fax 
www.provision-solar.com <http://www.provision-solar.com/>   
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

[Jeff Irish]

Chris,

 

Locus Energy has a low cost, revenue grade system that will work with
all inverters.  We have several dozen deployed and they're working well.
Customer needs to have a high speed internet connection.

 

www.locusenergy.com <http://www.locusenergy.com/> 

 

I've tried the TED and found it to be more of a toy than a serious
contractor product, although it may meet some user's needs.  The Locus
system is more accurate and robust, with much greater data storage.  

 

Jeff Irish

Hudson Valley Clean Energy

 

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:12 PM
To: ch...@solarandwindfx.com; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

 

Chris,

 

I've had one of my guys research this same question a while ago and the
conclusion was the as far as low-cost DAS systems, Fat Spaniel was the
big winner, as in under $1,000 which includes a year's worth of
monitoring.

 

Cheers,

marco

 

Good Day Wrenches,

I'm looking for suggestions for a low cost DAS system for
home/small commercial use. It just seems to be such a useful basic tool
to verify performance other than just the Kwh meter. I'd like to add
this to all of our clients quotes and projects. Looking for the basics
like module temperature and irradiance and it would be nice if it would
tie into the existing inverters DAS like an Enphase, Fronius or SMA to
name a few since they already have inverter and PV in/output
information. Or is Fat Spaniel and Helitronics my only options
otherwise? Thanks for the help ahead of time.

 

Christopher

  

   Chris Schaefer's

 

 


 


WHERE KNOWLEDGE EQUALS POWER INDEPENDENCE


 

Specializing in Off-Grid Electricity for Remote Homes

Grid-Tied Power for Residential and Commercial Sites

 

Tel 585-229-2083 ~ Cell 585-748-1870

5115 South Hill Road

Canandaigua New York 14424

www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com/>  ~ 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2805 - Release Date: 04/11/10
08:32:00

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Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

[Jeff Irish]

The Locus system is less than $1,000 for single phase.
Jeff

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems


I think the big this here is Low cost? Maybe we should define the price
range so we can get a better fell of the product range?


Logan


> Chris,
>
>
>
> Locus Energy has a low cost, revenue grade system that will work with
> all inverters.  We have several dozen deployed and they're working
well.
> Customer needs to have a high speed internet connection.
>
>
>
> www.locusenergy.com <http://www.locusenergy.com/>
>
>
>
> I've tried the TED and found it to be more of a toy than a serious
> contractor product, although it may meet some user's needs.  The Locus
> system is more accurate and robust, with much greater data storage.
>
>
>
> Jeff Irish
>
> Hudson Valley Clean Energy
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
> Mangelsdorf
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:12 PM
> To: ch...@solarandwindfx.com; 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> I've had one of my guys research this same question a while ago and
the
> conclusion was the as far as low-cost DAS systems, Fat Spaniel was the
> big winner, as in under $1,000 which includes a year's worth of
> monitoring.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> marco
>
>
>
> Good Day Wrenches,
>
> I'm looking for suggestions for a low cost DAS system for
> home/small commercial use. It just seems to be such a useful basic
tool
> to verify performance other than just the Kwh meter. I'd like to add
> this to all of our clients quotes and projects. Looking for the basics
> like module temperature and irradiance and it would be nice if it
would
> tie into the existing inverters DAS like an Enphase, Fronius or SMA to
> name a few since they already have inverter and PV in/output
> information. Or is Fat Spaniel and Helitronics my only options
> otherwise? Thanks for the help ahead of time.
>
>
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>Chris Schaefer's
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WHERE KNOWLEDGE EQUALS POWER INDEPENDENCE
>
>
>
>
> Specializing in Off-Grid Electricity for Remote Homes
>
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>
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> Tel 585-229-2083 ~ Cell 585-748-1870
>
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>
> Canandaigua New York 14424
>
> www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com/>  ~
> ch...@solarandwindfx.com
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Supply side tap not allowed

[Jeff Irish]

If possible, install a j-box between the meter and MSP, run the service
entrance conductors through it unbroken and through Polaris type
connectors for the tap.

 

Jeff Irish

Hudson Valley Clean Energy

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff
Oldham
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:14 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side tap not allowed

 

I just had my proposal for a supply side tap (between meter and main) of
on a residential system rejected by the inspector (CA) because he wants
a letter from the service panel manu detailing the proper method of
making this tap and that I must strictly follow it. This is a 1st for
me, I've done lot's of commercial supply side taps as well as
residential in numerous jurisdictions and this has never been requested.
To make matters worse, the manu of this service is Zinsco, no letters
are coming from this long ago defunct company. IF you could even get any
manu to do this how many months do you think it would take to get and
after how many prods? 

The inspector acknowledges that the NEC allows for supply side taps w/PV
systems as well as noting that nowhere in the NEC does it require this
permission letter. He says he found discussion about it on the 'net and
that some feel the taps violate the U.L. on the panel. I can see this
take, but feel a simple tap is not a significant "modification" to a
listed panel and the impacts on our installs is significant as those
letters will not come easy.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-jeff o


>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff
Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions




Ditech(r) Official Site
Fast & Friendly Service. Apply Online and Start Saving Today!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Production and Consumption monitoring?

[Jeff Irish]

www.locusenergy.com <http://www.locusenergy.com/> 

 

Locus energy has a product that can do this.  

Say hi to Noel for me.

 

Jeff Irish

Hudson Valley Clean Energy

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August
Goers
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:37 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Production and Consumption monitoring?

 

Hi Wrenches -

Are any of you familiar with a monitoring product that monitors both
solar production and building consumption and takes into account the
differential? SunPower has a product but we have a non-SunPower client
who is very keen on setting up this type of monitoring situation.

Thanks,

August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation

1320 Potrero Avenue

San Francisco, CA 94110

m: 415.559.1525

o: 415.641.4000

aug...@luminalt.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any experience with Power-One AFCI inverters

[Jeff Irish]

Yes it's real and they are apparently working on a fix.  As we were told, the 
problem only occurs when there are two or more paralleled inverters, and only 
with the small 3 to 5 kW units.  I believe they interfere with each other.  I'm 
not sure if it occurs all the time or only in some instances.  Our state is not 
requiring AFCI yet so we are requesting non-AFCI units from Power-One for the 
time being.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 1:48 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any experience with Power-One AFCI inverters

All -

As many of your are aware, the 2011 NEC is coming to California in the new year 
and so we'll start installing AFCI inverters on our projects. Has anyone had 
experience with the AFCI string inverters from Power-One? I've heard through 
the grapevine that some people have had problems with Power-One's AFCI 
circuitry tripping when there aren't any faults and thought I'd check to see if 
this is just a one-off experience or if it is widespread.

Thanks,

August
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric fence, metal buildings, lightning protection systems

[Jeff Irish]

Not only are the voltages on these agricultural electric fences pretty high as 
Roy mentions, but many supply the voltage as a pulsed square wave and therefore 
generate harmonics and noise too.  Electrical separation is necessary, and some 
distance will help.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 2:54 PM
To: er...@repowersolutions.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric fence, metal buildings, lightning 
protection systems

Erika,

That electric fencer needs it's own grounding electrode system!

Unlike the premises grounding system, where there's normally no voltage 
present, the fencer's
ground completes the circuit.

I have measured over 12,000 volts on our farm fencer grounding conductorI 
have learned not to
touch ithad to try it 2 or 3 times to be sure though ;-)


Roy Butler

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(r)

NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer

Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC

8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807

607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com<http://www.four-winds-energy.com>



Join us at the 10th Annual Small Wind Conference

A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors

June 17 and 18, 2014 in Stevens Point, Wisconsin

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Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,

a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.




On 12/6/2013 2:31 PM, Erika Weliczko wrote:
SB3000TL-US inverters.
The concern is possible voltage that may lead the inverter to believe there is 
a ground fault because of fence connections.
I wonder what the tolerable window of voltage of + or - to ground is for this 
unit before it cries GF.

During a drizzle I had a little tingle while assembling EMT. I did not get a 
meter out, but it sorta felt like a 9V battery across your tongue.
In the end even a little tingle is not really supposed to be there...


Regards,
Erika

From: jay peltz [mailto:j...@asis.com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:05 AM
To: er...@repowersolutions.com<mailto:er...@repowersolutions.com>; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric fence, metal buildings, lightning 
protection systems

Hi Erika,
What seems to be the issue?
And what equipment ( inverters ) are you using

Jay

Peltz power




On Dec 6, 2013, at 5:57 AM, "Erika Weliczko" 
mailto:er...@repowersolutions.com>> wrote:
Anyone had to contend with electric fence installation (AC controller) using a 
ground rod (not main service) at remote farm building and messing with 
inverters? And perhaps causing other issues?

Of course, this is a metal roof with a lightning protection system (i.e. bare 
braided copper on roof all the way to rod.)

I think we need to redirect the electric fence wire to its own dedicated rods, 
away from the building that has solar.

Insights are appreciated.

Thanks,
Erika

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual problem with SMA TL inverter on metal roof

[Jeff Irish]

August,

We're seeing multiple inverters with the same error, and not getting the best 
of answers or support from SMA on fixing the problem so far.  And this is not a 
metal roof; it's PanelClaw on EPDM.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] on behalf of August Goers 
[aug...@luminalt.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual problem with SMA TL inverter on metal roof

Hi Marco,

Did you ever make any progress on this issue? We’re having an interesting issue 
with one of the new Sunny Tri-Power inverters (a 24 kW unit in this case) where 
we get an error “residual current too high.” We’ve only done a little 
troubleshooting so far but I don’t think we have a ground fault.

Best,

August

Luminalt

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>]
 On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 9:56 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual problem with SMA TL inverter on metal roof

Probably not.

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RE Ellison
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:24 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual problem with SMA TL inverter on metal roof

Is the metal roof grounded? Just a fast thought.

bob

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco 
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 10:31 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Unusual problem with SMA TL inverter on metal roof

Friends,

We have run across an odd technical problem at our commercial install at a 
laundromat on our island.   Attached is the description of the issue from SMA.  
We don’t know much except that we are switch out the TL inverters to the old 
style US inverters because SMA has no fix for the phantom ground tripping.  The 
issue is beyond our feeble understanding.

Any observations to share?

Thanks,

marco


No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
Version: 2014.0.4336 / Virus Database: 3722/7186 - Release Date: 03/12/14

No virus found in this message.
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Version: 2014.0.4336 / Virus Database: 3722/7186 - Release Date: 03/12/14
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Combining Multiple Inverters

[Jeff Irish]

I generally view data sheets as a sales tool from the manufacturer.  They 
sometimes differ from what is in the product manual.  If you look at the 
inverter manual, usually near the end you'll find the technical specifications 
and reference to the UL or other agency listing for the product, sometime even 
a copy of the listing letter.  I've seen this with SMA.  The specs and the 
listing information typically specify the maximum OCPD device rating.  I 
believe supplying an OCPD that meets that requirement is necessary for the 
listing to be valid.  Without a valid listing, your installation would not be 
NEC compliant.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Richard L Ratico
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 6:53 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Combining Multiple Inverters

I may be playing devil's advocate here, but I want to add a few thoughts. Jay, 
I just looked at Fronius and SMA inverter data sheets. I found no spec. for an 
output OCPD, only a spec for max. output current.
William, most inverters now come with integrated DC/AC discos. Dave, 2014 NEC 
705.12(D)(1), IMHO, specifies ONE OCPD for the entire interconnected power 
system, not individual OCPD for each inverter.

Generally speaking OCPD is provided for the circuit conductors in a system, not 
the individual pieces of equipment. If the equipment manu. specifies OCPD, that 
is a different story.

I understand the 2014 code to require appropiate OCPD for all the conductors 
from the panelboard to the inverter. If that can be accomlished with one device 
at the panel, it meets code. That said, code is a MINIMUM standard.

Bottom line, I agree with Corey that there is no code requirement for 
individual OCPD for each inverter. If there is, unfortunately, it is 
insufficiently explicit such that we are having this conversation.

Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric


--- You wrote:
I have never seen an inverter that does not specify a OCPD size. 

Jay
Peltz power. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:20 PM, Dave Click  wrote:
> 
> Corey,
> 
> The line of reasoning is faulty. It's 705.12(D)(1). Micro-inverters 
> are the
exception because they are specially listed to share a breaker. As for the 
other inverters, doubling them up on a single breaker / disconnect probably 
goes against their installation instructions [110.3(B)] and it's unlikely that 
you could put multiple units on a single breaker anyway because when you take (2
inverters) x (rated current) x (1.25) you will probably come up with a minimum 
breaker size that is larger than the maximum allowed under the NRTL listing to 
UL 1741.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
>> On 2014/6/26, 16:18, Corey Shalanski wrote:
>> We considered the necessity to shut down individual inverters and 
>> determined
that the added costs of an inverter output combiner panel were not merited. I 
agree that in theory it seems beneficial to be able to switch each inverter 
individually, but how often does this occur in practice? For the relatively 
infrequent cases where we need to return to a jobsite and shut down an inverter
- for troubleshooting/removal/etc. - we do not mind shutting down the other 
inverters (up to a limit) for what is hopefully a short period of time.
>> 
>> Again, this whole line of reasoning may be shown to be faulty if 
>> someone can
directly point to the Code section that requires OCPD on each individual 
inverter.
>> 
>> --
>> Corey
>> $E1eB
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 9:20 AM, 
>>> 
wrote:
>>> 
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 19:17:57 -0700
>>> From: William Miller 
>>> To: RE-wrenches 
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Combining Multiple Inverters
>>> Message-ID: <04f4b8fd-e280-4bf2-b5a4-c2fca8d1c...@millersolar.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> 
>>> Not allowed. You need a dedicated OCPD. Plus seems like a really bad idea. 
How do you shut down just one inverter?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Miller Solar
--- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] [BULK] Diode Failure

[Jeff Irish]

We experienced a similar lightning event two years ago that destroyed over a 
dozen modules.  The system was a top of pole ground mount with four rows of 
four poles each, sixteen in total, arranged in a square.  The lightning strike 
occurred 150 feet off the southwest corner of the array, where it hit a utility 
pole.   All the damaged modules were in the front or south most row, and 
concentrated toward the southwest.  The module J-boxes were melted and 
deformed, with burned or exploded diodes.  That was the only sign of damage to 
the system.  The utility lost at least one pole top transformer, and the 
customer some appliances in his nearby farmhouse.  Fortunately the inverters 
were in a barn several hundred feet away.  Being a top of pole mount, the 
system was extensively grounded, with the steel poles at least 4 feet into the 
ground and lines of bare # 6 copper connecting them and multiple ground rods.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar
Rhinebeck, NY

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Corey Shalanski
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [BULK] [RE-wrenches] Diode Failure

Wrenches,

We recently were contacted by a customer who reported a lightning strike close 
to his house. His online monitoring revealed that 30 of 35 microinverters 
simultaneously stopped producing power. On initial visit to the jobsite we 
measured Voc on many modules - either 12V or 24V instead of rated 36V. On a 
second visit we discovered that bypass diodes - either 1 or 2 corresponding to 
observed voltage loss - had failed on each of the faulty modules.

My question is: Can anyone support the theory that a nearby lightning flash can 
cause mass bypass diode failure?

--
Corey Shalanski
Joule Energy
New Orleans, LA
[Image removed by sender.]ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] J-Box Damage

[Jeff Irish]

I’ve seen similar damage from a nearby lightning strike, on two rural ground 
mounts, although the damage looks a little more severe in your photo.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Corey Shalanski
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 4:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] J-Box Damage

Wrenches,

I have a bit of a CSI-challenge for the group. Please see attached photo.

These are the details as provided to me:
The junction box shown in the photo is from a set of 18 modules that were 
installed (for about 3-4 years) and then removed for re-roofing purposes. Our 
company did not install the original array; we were called in for the 
reinstallation. As soon as our technicians removed the modules from their 
storage container and exposed them to sunlight, they started smelling burning 
electronics. They opened at least one other junction box and found similarly 
charred components. They measured zero voltage on these and at least "a half 
dozen more". Some of the modules from this set had no intact MC4 connectors; 
apparently they had been cut off to make removing the modules easier (?!)

The project integrator is seeking a *plausible* explanation so that he can 
decide how to move forward - essentially, what could have caused this?

Thank you for any ideas the group can offer :)

--
Corey Shalanski
Joule Energy
New Orleans, LA
[Image removed by sender.]ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell

[Jeff Irish]

LG Neon?  Available through several distributors.

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of jay
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell

HI All,

I'm looking for 300 watt ( 290-310 watt) 60 cell modules for client.  But I'm 
having trouble finding anyone carrying them.

Any suggestions?

thanks in advance.

jay

peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs

[Jeff Irish]

Did you look at Unirac SunFrame?  It uses shared rails and a continuous cap 
strip.  The installers can also set the modules in the rail which is really 
nice on steep roofs.  If you are in a freeze/thaw climate contact me off-line 
because there’s a subtle thermal contraction consideration to allow for.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Garrison Riegel
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 3:50 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs

Thanks for the responses.

I called UniRac and IronRidge who both confirmed they max out at 45°.  UniRac 
said anything over 45° is considered a wall and requires different testing and 
certification.  They said the primary concern is the end clamp which holds the 
module by friction only.  Mid clamps should hold no problem.  They suggested 
getting an engineer to stamp a custom bolted end clamp solution and we should 
be good.

I’ve been looking for a good excuse to try Snap n Rack…

Thanks,
Garrison

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Aram Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs

Pro solar will work just fine.

Aram

On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Jerry Shafer 
mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are 
having but they will confirm eitherway
Jerry
On Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" 
mailto:garri...@solarserviceinc.com>> wrote:
Wrenches,

Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs?  I 
have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual manufacturers 
we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, Schletter Solo, DPW 
Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least according to their design tools 
and manuals.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Garrison

Garrison Riegel
PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc<http://www.solarserviceinc.com/>
[p] 847-677-0950 | 
garri...@solarserviceinc.com<mailto:garri...@solarserviceinc.com>

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™




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Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

[Jeff Irish]

EJOTs are a German product designed for this kind of application.  They have an 
application note that discusses purlin thickness, thread size, and pull out 
strength.  Mudge Fasteners carries them in the US.

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
and Adirondack Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com<mailto:j...@hvce.com>
Solar Electric Systems
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional




From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:51 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment


i think bob o once said he used ss pop rivets on a job like this.



todd







On Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:26am, "lars Ortegren" 
mailto:l...@cal-solar.com>> said:
Wrenches,
We have a project coming up where we are installing a large array on a low 
slope metal building with metal purlins. Typically we would through bolt our 
attachment to the purlins, but in this case the building is a self-storage, and 
access is not an option. Does anyone out there have experience with any top 
side only metal-metal attachments? I’ve thought about using some larger sized 
stainless self-tapping screws, but I worry about the pull out strength (as the 
roof combined with the c-channel purlins are only about 1/8”) and the effects 
of heat and cooling of the roof backing the screws out over time. Any thoughts ?





Lars Ortegren





Director of Operations
California Solar Electric Company
10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
Grass Valley, CA 95945
http://www.californiasolarco.com/





Phone : (530)274-3671
Fax: (530)274-7518





California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624
NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091110-89
Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider
More about NABCEP:





http://www.nabcep.org/








Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.

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[RE-wrenches] Extensive Lightning Damage to Modules

[Jeff Irish]

A customer of ours has recently suffered lightning damage to 31 out of 160 top 
of pole mounted modules.  This is the first time in 10 years that I've seen 
modules damaged by lightning.  Lots of inverter GF fuses and a few inverters, 
but never modules.  We're trying to determine if it was caused by the lightning 
flash irradiating the modules or ground currents.

The array consists of 16 DP&W top of pole mounts with 10 modules each, arranged 
in a square of 4 poles E-W and 4 rows N-S.  The poles are 13 feet center to 
center E-W and the N-S row spacing is about 50 feet.  The poles are 6 inch 
galvanized Technoposts, augured 5 - 7 feet into the firm ground, connected with 
a network of about 160 feet of bare #6 copper and at least 8 copper plated 
ground rods.  Altogether we have about 130 square feet of bare metal surface 
area connected and buried in the ground at and around the array.

The customer saw lightning strike just after dawn a few weeks ago a couple 
hundred feet to the southwest where it also destroyed two utility pole mount 
distribution transformers and ran along the utility wires 100 feet south of the 
array.  The inverters are 200 feet NW and suffered no damage.  The array and 
modules look totally fine, except some of the J-boxes are deformed from heat.  
Opening the J-boxes shows varying levels of damage to one or more diodes, from 
discoloration to being broken and cracked open.

The odd thing is the pattern of damage (we've tested all the modules 
individually for Voc and Isc).  Only modules in the south row of 4 poles are 
damaged, and the damage is concentrated on the modules closest to the ground; 
modules higher up in the air appear OK.  Also, damage is less frequent as you 
move east, away from the direction of the strike.

If it was caused by ground currents, why would the current want to go up the 
poles, why only the southern row of poles, and why damage more modules closer 
to the ground and not those at the top?  Is it possible a flash near the ground 
irradiated the modules causing a current spike and the southern row shielded 
the other rows from most of the flash?  Anyone have experience with this?


Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hudsonsolar.com<mailto:j...@hudsonsolar.com>
Solar Electric Systems
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales
HudsonSolar.com
2011 NYSERDA Excellence in Quality Award | 2011 NYSEIA Award Winner | 2009 Best 
of the Hudson Valley | 2008 SunPower Dealer of the Year | EDC Business 
Excellence Award for Innovation

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Extensive Lightning Damage to Modules

[Jeff Irish]

No burn marks on the frames, modules or poles.

Jeff
Hudson Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 12:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extensive Lightning Damage to Modules

My 2 cents here is that this is flash irradiance damage.

As there appear to be no "burn" marks on the module frames right?


Jay
peltz power


On Sep 7, 2012, at 9:29 AM, 
mailto:d...@foxfire-energy.com>> wrote:


I've seen it twice. both were DP&W pole Mounts. the first time the whole array 
was involved (this was a few years ago). At the time, we thought it might be a 
disgruntled employee because no one had ever heard of such damage. I think we 
used box lugs and star washers on each module back then). the second just a few 
weeks ago. this time it seemed totally random affecting about 30% in different 
strings. Seems back in the broadcast industry we viewed lightening strikes as 
"Acts of God", and focused more on repair than the "whys". We install as per 
manufacturer's spec and NEC, and cross our fingers.. But when the Good Lord 
comes knocking, all bets are off. I remember pulling onto a job site once and 
found 80 lb chunks of chimney/ fireplace some 150ft down the driveway. Yes, the 
house did have lightening rods. Good Luck. db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Extensive Lightning Damage to Modules

[Jeff Irish]

Kent,

Surge protection is at the inverters, 200 feet away, on both the AC and DC 
sides.  Nothing at the array; never thought we'd need it there.  There's a 4 
string fused DC combiner on the west pole of each row; no damage visible on any 
of them and their fuses were all ok.  And yes, each pole of 10 modules is a 
separate DC string, 4 are combined into a DC output circuit to each of four 
SB7000US inverters.

Jeff
Hudson Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extensive Lightning Damage to Modules

Jeff,

Is there any surge protection in the combiner boxes? Any damage visible in the 
combiner boxes? Any fuses or breakers open in the combiner boxes? Is each pole 
a single string of modules or multiple strings of modules?

While there where undoubtedly ground currents flowing they probably didn't 
cause the damage in the module junction boxes. The PV module and wiring to it 
form a loop - often a loop with a large area in the vicinity of the module. The 
current from the lightning strike has a tremendous dI/dt and the changing 
magnetic field from it will induce voltages in any wire loop.


Kent Osterberg

Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.

www.bluemountainsolar.com<http://www.bluemountainsolar.com>

t: 541-568-4882


On 9/7/2012 7:40 AM, Jeff Irish wrote:
A customer of ours has recently suffered lightning damage to 31 out of 160 top 
of pole mounted modules.  This is the first time in 10 years that I've seen 
modules damaged by lightning.  Lots of inverter GF fuses and a few inverters, 
but never modules.  We're trying to determine if it was caused by the lightning 
flash irradiating the modules or ground currents.

The array consists of 16 DP&W top of pole mounts with 10 modules each, arranged 
in a square of 4 poles E-W and 4 rows N-S.  The poles are 13 feet center to 
center E-W and the N-S row spacing is about 50 feet.  The poles are 6 inch 
galvanized Technoposts, augured 5 - 7 feet into the firm ground, connected with 
a network of about 160 feet of bare #6 copper and at least 8 copper plated 
ground rods.  Altogether we have about 130 square feet of bare metal surface 
area connected and buried in the ground at and around the array.

The customer saw lightning strike just after dawn a few weeks ago a couple 
hundred feet to the southwest where it also destroyed two utility pole mount 
distribution transformers and ran along the utility wires 100 feet south of the 
array.  The inverters are 200 feet NW and suffered no damage.  The array and 
modules look totally fine, except some of the J-boxes are deformed from heat.  
Opening the J-boxes shows varying levels of damage to one or more diodes, from 
discoloration to being broken and cracked open.

The odd thing is the pattern of damage (we've tested all the modules 
individually for Voc and Isc).  Only modules in the south row of 4 poles are 
damaged, and the damage is concentrated on the modules closest to the ground; 
modules higher up in the air appear OK.  Also, damage is less frequent as you 
move east, away from the direction of the strike.

If it was caused by ground currents, why would the current want to go up the 
poles, why only the southern row of poles, and why damage more modules closer 
to the ground and not those at the top?  Is it possible a flash near the ground 
irradiated the modules causing a current spike and the southern row shielded 
the other rows from most of the flash?  Anyone have experience with this?


Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hudsonsolar.com<mailto:j...@hudsonsolar.com>
Solar Electric Systems
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales
MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "applewebdata:" claiming 
to be 
HudsonSolar.com
2011 NYSERDA Excellence in Quality Award | 2011 NYSEIA Award Winner | 2009 Best 
of the Hudson Valley | 2008 SunPower Dealer of the Year | EDC Business 
Excellence Award for Innovation





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Extensive Lightning Damage to Modules

[Jeff Irish]

Hey Larry,

The four poles of ten modules in each row are each a separate string, combined 
at a fused DC combiner on the west most pole.  A 1 inch PVC conduit runs down 
each pole directly to a buried hand hole box at the west pole of each row.  
Each conduit contains a #8 EGC along with the current carrying conductors.  In 
the hand hole boxes the four #8 wires are irreversibly spliced to the bare #6 
that is laid in and runs the length of the 39 foot trench connecting the four 
poles.  An acorn attaches the bare #6 to a ground rod at each end.  The #8 EGC 
at each pole is irreversibly spliced to the EGC from the rails, rack and pole, 
each of which have lay in lugs.  The module are grounded to the rails with 
WEEBs.  We're following Burndy's paper on how to ground DP&W top of pole mounts.

The #6 should not have any tight bends, it should just leave the hand hole box 
and go in a straight line 39 feet east in the bottom of the trench.  This, 
combined with each pole being 5-7 feet into the ground should be sufficient 
grounding, I'd have thought.  It's about 100 times more surface area than the 
average house with a single ground rod.

Jeff
Hudson Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, 
Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 11:54 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extensive Lightning Damage to Modules

Hello Jeff,

I am curious about the network of ground rods and #6 wire. Can you describe how 
the modules and mount are connected to this ground system?
Are there any tight bends anywhere in the #6 wire?
Are any of the poles or mounts connected to other poles/mounts before going to 
the ground system?
Are any PV wires running between the poles before going to the combiner?

As most wrenches know, lightning strikes can induce very high voltage on any 
nearby wire runs and that voltage is looking for a path to ground. Equipment is 
damaged when it contributes to that path. If the voltage was induced on the PV 
module frames or wire, an effective ground system will disperse it to ground. 
Key word here is effective. I have seen grounding systems where the installer 
made nice, neat and tight 90° bends in the ground wire. This is a huge mistake 
which can greatly diminish the effectiveness of the ground system.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Sep 7, 2012, at 8:40 AM, Jeff Irish wrote:


A customer of ours has recently suffered lightning damage to 31 out of 160 top 
of pole mounted modules.  This is the first time in 10 years that I've seen 
modules damaged by lightning.  Lots of inverter GF fuses and a few inverters, 
but never modules.  We're trying to determine if it was caused by the lightning 
flash irradiating the modules or ground currents.

The array consists of 16 DP&W top of pole mounts with 10 modules each, arranged 
in a square of 4 poles E-W and 4 rows N-S.  The poles are 13 feet center to 
center E-W and the N-S row spacing is about 50 feet.  The poles are 6 inch 
galvanized Technoposts, augured 5 - 7 feet into the firm ground, connected with 
a network of about 160 feet of bare #6 copper and at least 8 copper plated 
ground rods.  Altogether we have about 130 square feet of bare metal surface 
area connected and buried in the ground at and around the array.

The customer saw lightning strike just after dawn a few weeks ago a couple 
hundred feet to the southwest where it also destroyed two utility pole mount 
distribution transformers and ran along the utility wires 100 feet south of the 
array.  The inverters are 200 feet NW and suffered no damage.  The array and 
modules look totally fine, except some of the J-boxes are deformed from heat.  
Opening the J-boxes shows varying levels of damage to one or more diodes, from 
discoloration to being broken and cracked open.

The odd thing is the pattern of damage (we've tested all the modules 
individually for Voc and Isc).  Only modules in the south row of 4 poles are 
damaged, and the damage is concentrated on the modules closest to the ground; 
modules higher up in the air appear OK.  Also, damage is less frequent as you 
move east, away from the direction of the strike.

If it was caused by ground currents, why would the current want to go up the 
poles, why only the southern row of poles, and why damage more modules closer 
to the ground and not those at the top?  Is it possible a flash near the ground 
irradiated the modules causing a current spike and the southern row shielded 
the other rows from most of the flash?  Anyone have experience with this?


Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hudsonsolar.com<mailto:j...@hudsonsolar.com>
Solar Electric Systems
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales
MailS

Re: [RE-wrenches] parallel OCPD

[Jeff Irish]

Code issues aside, even two seemingly identical runs each with breakers would 
have at least slightly different resistances, causing the lower resistance run 
to take more than half the total current, tripping the breaker in that run, 
then causing a tripping of the breaker in the other run.

Jeff Irish

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of mac Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 9:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] parallel OCPD

Hello wrenches,

Does anyone understand why you are not allowed to have parallel separately 
protected runs of wire.
For example, say I need 120A from point A to point B, why doesn't the code 
allow two runs of #6 breakered at 60A each.  Its probably obvious, but not to 
me...


--



Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Charge control question

[Jeff Irish]

Blue Sky has 15 and 30 amp, 12 and 24 volt charge controllers that are each 
independently MPPT that can be networked to their controller to communicate and 
charge a single large battery bank.
Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:04 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Charge control question

Wrenches,
I'm posting this for Carl Bickford, prof emeritus of the renewable energy 
training program at San Juan College in Farmington, New Mexico. I'll forward 
your responses to him.
I have a very interesting and talented friend who is rebuilding a blue-water 
sailboat for a round-the-world trip. He is well versed in solar and is trying 
to use a relatively large array to charge a big battery bank that will be used 
for propulsion as well as general electrical. The propulsion system will be 
backed up with a propane generator he is building himself out of a Toyota truck 
engine.
As you can imagine, there is no place on a sailboat where shading isn't a 
problem. He and I were wondering if there were products out there that could 
MPPT either individual modules, or small groups of them for 12 V battery 
charging. I have seen such things for the inputs of grid-tied inverters, but 
nothing yet for off-grid. The other choice is to go with many small MPPT charge 
controllers like the ones from Solar Converters.
Any advice you can offer?
Take care,
Carl

Carl Bickford
Professor of Engineering and Renewable Energy
San Juan College
4601 College Blvd.
Farmington, NM 87402
505-566-3503
bickfo...@sanjuancollege.edu<mailto:bickfo...@sanjuancollege.edu>

I offered the suggestion below. Certainly open to other and better ideas.
Allan

I have not encountered this situation, so I have no advice from experience. At 
12V, it's hardly an issue as it is with high voltage parallel strings, where a 
few shaded cells can cause a whole string to drop out of the inverter's MPPT. 
At most, a shaded cell weakens the output of that module. And since it's 
charging batteries, there's a greater amount of head room.

I would suggest looking into Blue Sky Energy's "i" series - smaller MPPT 
controllers that can be networked. We seldom use them, as our residential 
applications are different. But you could put a controller on a group of 
modules and network several together. One advantage, I think (you'd want to 
check this) is that Blue Sky's MPPT algorithm is analog, unlike Outback and 
others: on the old Solar Boost series, the MPPT boost was set with a trim pot 
to a particular voltage above battery voltage; the target is to set it to where 
the boost was greatest. You could set this boost slightly lower than peak, and 
output just a little below MPP. That way the overall output would be minimally 
reduced, and a modest amount of shading would not cause the shaded module to 
drop below collective MPP as readily.

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com<mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com<http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>




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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV String Over-voltage

[Jeff Irish]

Maybe try putting a few power zener diodes in series with a protection resistor 
across the DC positive and negative terminals.  NTE makes 5W zeners with 150.0 
and 200.0 volt reverse breakdown voltages that only cost $2 and are rated down 
to - 65C.  You should pick the power rating of the zeners and size of the 
protection resistor to handle what maximum current you might expect from the 
array, but the theory is that by the time you have enough sun on the modules to 
create a substantial current they should have warmed up above – 40 F or C 
dropping the voltage below 600.  By selecting different diodes you could build 
something to go into reverse at 600 VDC, 590, 580, whatever you want.  I’ve 
never tried it and might be missing something but for $10 it’s something to 
consider.  Just an idea!

Jeff Irish, PE
Hudson Solar
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hudsonsolar.com<mailto:j...@hudsonsolar.com>
Solar Electric Systems
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn At 
DayStarSolar
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:23 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV String Over-voltage

Larry,
Would it not be a more straightforward approach to just size the strings, 
temperature compensating for the coldest anticipated temp?
Nonetheless, such a device could be useful in some circumstances. I'd be 
interested to know if your search comes up with something.
benn
Sent from a 'smart' phone, with touch screen keys. Please excuse shortcuts and 
typos.

On 2012-11-29, at 6:53 PM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:
Wrenches,

I seem to recall seeing something about a device for PV string over-voltage 
protection by bypassing a module. I can't find any info by Goggling.

Some customers in the FAR north, ay, can see > 40° below zero with bright sun 
and snow reflection. I want to be able to switch off one or more modules in a 
string for protecting the controllers.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

[Jeff Irish]

Unfortunately the situation might be a little more simple, and devious, than 
that when it comes to the "bean counters".  Many lease and PPA structures have 
the tax equity investors out and gone in five years, and the lease holder 
cashflow positive by then or not long after.  So if there are problems with 
performance in years 7 - 20, only the installer holding the warranty obligation 
or valuing the local relationship and reputation will be concerned, or maybe 
even around.

I'm definitely not putting SunPower in this boat; they make a good product, 
have a proven history of standing behind it, and are taking a long term brand 
building view in my experience / opinion.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 12:56 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

First Solar's thin film is definitely part of the industry's early onset under 
performance problem.
With monocrystalline under $1/watt, I just don't understand why big projects 
are still going forward with thin film.
I would only use thin film for partial shading, or curved, odd shaped surfaces. 
 (RV roofs, not MW plants)
The bean counters are putting too much faith in warranties and spread sheets, 
instead of looking at real life long term performance history.  PV's been 
around now for several decades; there's just no excuse to keep repeating the 
same mistakes over again.



R.Ray Walters

CTO, Solarray, Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,

Licensed Master Electrician

Solar Design Engineer

303 505-8760
On 5/31/2013 1:02 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:
I don't know for sure, but the S. California installation in the article is 
likely a large Unisolar installation down there.

However, since the article talks about Chinese modules, which are mostly 
crystalline, I don't think thin film is the major problem, if there really is 
one.

Not mentioned in the article is the possibility for micro-fracturing of the 
cells being a major problem, especially since they are sliced so thin these 
days, and generally shipped lying flat, which must cause a lot of flexing 
during transport.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Emerson
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:50 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

Hi there,

Hilton's third question is important.

Are we seeing a rise in thin film failure or is this only mono and poly?

Regards
Carl Emerson


From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier III
Sent: 30 May 2013 1:09 a.m.
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

Greetings wrenches,

I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York Times: 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp&_r=1&;

I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking about canceling 
his project.

First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules lately, and if so, 
what brands?
Second question: How much does this affect first-tier manufacturers (Trina, 
Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this is "no-name" brands?
Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology such as thin film?

And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine the fossil fuel 
and nuclear industries promoting this story with enthusiasm.

Thanks,

Hilton

--

Hilton Dier III

Renewable Energy Design

Partner, Solar Gain LLC

453 East Hill Rd.

Middlesex, VT 05602




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Thermal imaging

[Jeff Irish]

Andrew,

Have a look at the Fluke VT02.  The screen is small, but it is designed for 
electrical troubleshooting, has a nice IR/visual mix feature, image capture, 
and is less than $1,000.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Truitt
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal imaging

Wrenches - I am considering the purchase of a thermal imaging camera for PV 
system commissioning applications.  Prices seem to range from $1,000 to 
$10,000+.  Primary manufacturers seem to be Fluke and Flir, with Extech, Ideal 
and Milwaukee offering a few products as well.  It seems to me that the key 
factors to consider are temperature range, thermal sensitivity, screen 
resolution, screen size, battery life, type of image capture and price.  Does 
anyone have experience with using thermal imaging to identify temperature 
irregularities in modules and/or electrical equipment?  What temperature range, 
thermal sensitivity, and screen resolution is needed for both/either of these 
tasks?  What have been the key factors/specifications in terms of ergonomics 
and functionality?  Any preferences in terms of manufacturer?


For a brighter energy future,


Andrew Truitt
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) (ID# 032407-66)
Principal
Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC
(202) 486-7507
LinkedIn Profile<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713>
Company Website<http://truittreconsulting.weebly.com/>

[24 copy.jpg]

"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to 
fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely 
banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in 
just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough






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Re: [RE-wrenches] SunPower modules

[Jeff Irish]

Word of caution... don't wire the bigger SunPower modules with the
negative conductor grounded.  With the metal frame grounded, as it
should be, this combination causes a strange surface polarization effect
that will discolor the cells and cause the power output to drop by about
half.  Fortunately the polarization and discoloring are totally
reversible if the system is re-wired with the positive conductor
grounded (as we found out, even after 6 months of being wired
incorrectly), but it takes a few days to correct.  For this same reason,
SunPower modules can't be used with bipolar inverters.

 

Jeff Irish

Hudson Valley Clean Energy

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay
peltz
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 9:39 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower modules

 

Hi Larry,

 

 I was under the impression that Sunpower were only for on grid?

 

And for off grid with the low voltages that we use, they are still
requiring you to use positive ground?  I've seen the white paper they
did and it showed at lower voltages there is no need to positive ground,
thats why for example those 90 watt panels using Sunpower cells are used
with Negative ground.

 

curious,

 

jay

 

peltz power

On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:14 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar wrote:





William,

 

I know you asked Jeff but thought I would respond as all we do are off
grid, battery based systems. I typically see that the Vmp voltage of
Sunpower modules is closer to spec with than with Kyocera, Sharp or
Mitsubishi. In my opinion Sunpower modules are only surpassed by Sanyo.
I realize this is anecdotal but after hundreds of installs you begin to
notice these things.

 

Larry Crutcher

 

On Mar 19, 2009, at 5:46 PM, William Miller wrote:





Jeff:

Have these modules worked for you in battery based systems?

William Mill


At 01:27 PM 3/19/2009, you wrote:




Hiya Jeff,
You are correct that the sunpower modules are positively grounded.  You
are
also correct that sunpower only deals with dedicated "dealers".  That
means
that if you are not one of their dealers you cannot get their panels.
It is
my understanding that sunpower is always looking for new dealers, so you
may
want to check in with them.  As far as architectural review committees
and
such, we have never had a problem using SPR modules in the areas where
review is an issue.  The positive ground really does not affect
aanything.
Instead of your negative wire being the grounded (white) conductor it is
your positive conductor that is grounded.  This means you are switching
the
negative instead of the positive in the DC disco.  Sunpower sells
packaged
systems, so they provide positive ground inverters from different
manufacturers.

Evergreen now has a black framed module, and I believe Sharp does too.
I
hope this helps, any other questions feel free to contact me.  
Jeff Blick
Lead PV Installer

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV shingles again

[Jeff Irish]

Ditto... we've quoted Atlantis Sunslates at least a dozen times but the
extreme price premium and need to do the entire roof in an odd-sized
Swiss-made roof tile always kills the project.  I've also been told many
of the PV shingles being used in the warmer southern states are not
applicable to freeze/thaw climates.  Would love to see a reasonably
priced product in a normal form factor for the north though, as I'm sure
there's a market.

Jeff Irish
Hudson Valley Clean Energy

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
Wind-sun.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV shingles again

Not so fabulous...

A pain to install, expensive.

We have never gotten past the quoting stage on them. Once sticker shock
hits 
they either back out or go with conventional panels.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

..

- Original Message - 
From: "Howie Michaelson" 
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:06 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV shingles again


Hi All,

I take it that since their were no bites on my earlier query about the
use
of PV shingles, that either no one uses them or you want to keep this
fabulous technology a secret...

Thanks,
Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof

[Jeff Irish]

 and lasted about 6 months until it
> was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds
> stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has
> rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps.
> >
> > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect
> today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had
> UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts
> out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the
> original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue.
> The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames.
> None of the glass was broken.
> >
> > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails
> and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in
> trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to
> rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks
> great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof
> with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the
> attic.
> >
> > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing
> on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the
> modules that would suggest this was the problem.
> >
> > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test
> panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if
> that changes anything.
> >
> > Jason Szumlanski
> > Florida Solar Design Group
> > ___
> >
>
>
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SunCommon.com <https://suncommon.com/> | *Main: *845-876-3767
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets

[Jeff Irish]

Have a look at U2400s from Anchor Products.  You can order them to match
the type of roof you are dealing with.

On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:16 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> E-Curbs here.
>
> Some roofing manufacturers require that you use their sealant pockets and
> sealant to maintain their warranty, and some require that you use their
> certified roofing contractors. Firestone is one of them for TPO roofs, and
> their TPO accessories are very expensive (even more than Chemlink).
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 3:41 PM AE Solar 
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a
>> larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid
>> insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof
>> as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the
>> past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other
>> products folks like?
>> Thanks.
>> Adam
>>
>> Adam Katzman
>> Autonomous Energies
>> PO Box 1245
>> Kingston, NY 12402
>> www.autonomousenergies.com
>> (518) 567-1468
>>
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-- 
*Jeff Irish* <https://www.mypronouns.org/> | PE, Vice President
SunCommon.com <https://suncommon.com/> | *Main: *845-876-3767
13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572
<https://suncommon.com/holiday-giving-program-2021/>
SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and
brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solectria TL woes

[Jeff Irish, PE]

Andrew, I've seen this in multiple inverter systems when the AC voltage
gets pushed outside the upper limit by the inverter output currents.  One
or two inverters will cycle on-off, those with the lowest setting or
tolerance.  Cause can be (1) high AC voltage from the utility to start
with, and/or (2) high impedance looking into the grid from the inverters,
usually from an undersized or loose service conductor.
Jeff

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:16 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Andrew
> What is the AC Voltage when this occurs, to much VAC will shut down the
> inverter. It also looks like you are clipping all the inverters during the
> mid day, is due to low temps or does this always happen. What is the DC
> MPPT voltage, is it at the upper limit.
> Jerry
> NABCEP PV inspector
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 12:02 PM Andrew Truitt  wrote:
>
>>
>> Wrenches,
>>
>> I have a couple of Solectria 36TLs at a small community solar site in CO
>> that shut themselves down occasionally for what appears to be no reason.
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> Voltages and frequency are normal, firmware is updated, IR scan shows
>> nothing irregular, and the other 2 inverters at the site (50TLs) are fine.
>> It can happen under sunny or cloudy conditions.  Solectria will RMA the
>> inverters but before I go out and replace I'm curious if anyone has seen
>> this behavior?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Andrew Truitt
>>
>> www.dr.ventures
>> d: 202.486.7507
>>
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66
>> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132
>>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewtruitt/>
>>
>> [image: Logo]
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| Vice President

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SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy
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