[RBW] Re: FS- sugino triple crank

[Adam]

Bump. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: daily post ur riv

[ascpgh]

Nice to see a Rambouillet take on modern kit. Bar end shifter 1x, spoked 
wheels with rim brakes, 1" threaded steerer and a pump!

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-5 Andreas wrote:

> Ram 56. 
> Same setup since 2019. 1x11, rival rd, bar ends, ritchey logic 42t 
> wolftooth, 12x42 cassette. 
> Bartape, tires, saddle are different now.  
> Pump got lost on a rowdy descent and I could not find it, Zefal HPX now. 
> Berthoud (rails are too short) is replaced with a cambium.
> Perspective is a bit weird. Saddle tilt is flat, stem is 120.
>
> It is a very good bike.
> Riding it more and more. 
> But it has 148,000 miles to go to catch my most ridden frame, good chance 
> it will make it unless I am too tempted by a Roaduno or Hillborne.
>
> [image: ram2.jpg]
>
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 1:53:38 PM UTC-5 Jeremy Till wrote:
>
>> Here's my new-to-me first-gen (circa 2011?) 62cm Hunqapillar. I had 
>> always lusted after these when they came out but ended up with a Quickbeam, 
>> and was poor enough back then that two Rivendells wasn't in the cards. Fast 
>> forward 9-10 years and a couple of careers, and I had just gotten a 
>> promotion when this popped up on the list...couldn't help myself.  
>> [image: 50689104596_307c4e5401_k.jpg]
>> I got it built up initially in September when toxic smoke was blanketing 
>> CA so it's been a slow process of dialing over the past couple of months. 
>> Being a first gen model it doesn't have the tire clearance of later 
>> generations or my Clem. 2.2 knobbies would only fit on relatively narrow 
>> rims (Atlases) and even then I had to nip some of the side knobs off for 
>> clearance. However, "29x2" Big Bens (they run narrow) fit great on the 
>> prototype Silver hub/Cliffhanger wheelset pilfered from my Clem, and leave 
>> plenty of room for the 63mm VO fluted fenders, which I think look great. I 
>> anxiously awaited the release of the Nitto 31.8mm faceplate stems, the 80mm 
>> version got the Jones bars in just the right spot. Thomson seatpost because 
>> I needed a zero offset one and Nitto doesn't make their zero offset post in 
>> 26.8mm. WTB saddles have a lot of setback built into the rails so when I 
>> put it on the S83 that came with the frame it was just too far back.  
>>
>> Enjoying rambling around humming Bonnie Prince Billy to myself
>>
>> -Jeremy Till
>> Sacramento, CA
>>
>> On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 5:03:11 PM UTC-8 David Person wrote:
>>
>>> David Baldi, congrats - gotta love those big black and cream 
>>> Hillbornes.  I built mine in 2015.  Also sporting my first wheel build, 
>>> done last month.  Definitely a rewarding endeavor.
>>>
>>> David P. - Thousand Oaks, CA
>>>
>>> [image: Nov 12th (#3) copy.jpg]
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] FS: Rivendell Sackville Stickpack - like new

[Nate Phipps]

A belated SOLD. Thanks. 

-Nate

Please forgive brevity and typos. This message was sent from a phone. 

> On Nov 29, 2020, at 10:10 AM, Nate Phipps  wrote:
> 
> The famous Stickpack! So obscure, Riv doesn't even seem to have a listing 
> for them. I think they only did one run. 
> 
> Here it is on their instgram: https://www.instagram.com/rivbike/p/wZhVB0LxMF/
> Here is a reference on the Blug: 
> https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/135391516524/need-it-by-christmas
> 
> It's a very cool bag,  but I just never use it - in fact, I may have only 
> used it one, so consider it to be in nearly-new condition. I don't know if 
> Riv intended this, but the whole bag packs down in its removable top pouch. 
> Photos attached.
> 
> $125 OBO shipped to you via USPS w/tracking.
> 
> Nate
> Ann Arbor, MI
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> 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Best hat for sun protection while walking? -- Not too off-topic

[Marty Gierke, Stewartstown PA]

I have a Tilley, but much prefer my OR Seattle Sombrero - lightweight, 
GoreTex and wide brim that can be Aussiefied on one side or both as needed. 
Great in the rain and snow, which is a good thing given the forecast for 
Thursday here in PA. 

https://www.sunnysports.com/p-orssslrbk/outdoor-research-seattle-sombrero-rain-hat-large-black?gclid=Cj0KCQiA2uH-BRCCARIsAEeef3mXE2Ypr3-JO_lmiizBjpxrcG3w2Qfdhz8ZLx3WuRhT513sst4deLwaAvK-EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

The XL fits me better than any hat I've ever owned. I have a black one, but 
am tempted to get one in a lighter color for summer. 

Marty
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 1:53:34 AM UTC-5 jack loudon wrote:

> One thing about Tilley hats that may not have been mentioned is that most 
> are washable, and I like a hat that can withstand repeated washings.   My 
> Airflow (now 6 years old) gets sweat stained and generally nasty, but a 
> quick wash in the sink and it looks and smells like new - and keeps its 
> shape.  I just wring it out and put it back on my head.  It's also all 
> synthetic materials so the size has remained constant, where some of my 
> cotton hats have shrunk.  I loved my 'Ultimate' brand boating hat, but had 
> to soak it and stretch it over a head-sized bucket and it still shrunk 
> back.  Filson doesn't seem to make any truly well-ventilated hats and their 
> waxed cotton can't be thoroughly cleaned; mine got pretty ripe after a year 
> or two.  There are probably a lot of good hats out there, but I'd buy 
> another Tilley if mine got lost.
>
> Jack  "bald and with pallid cancer-prone Irish skin, so hats are my friend"
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 6:55:30 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> Thanks. This looks likely: 
>> https://www.tilley.com/us_en/ltm8-airflo-mesh-hat.html
>>
>> But tell me, why is it worth 3X the price of this one? 
>> https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/papyrus-brim-sun-hat-243408?cat=124,24,6,402
>>
>> As I said at the beginning, I'll happily pay $100 for a hat if I get 
>> value for the $$, but I need to be convinced that a $90 or $100 hat is 
>> worth 2 or 3 times the price of the $36 the OR hat. 
>>
>> What do the more expensive ones offer that the cheaper ones don't?
>>
>> As Lord Peter Wimsey so sagely and sententiously observed so long ago, 
>> "It is not the brand that guarantees the quality, but the quality that 
>> guarantees the brand."
>>
>> Patrick '7 3/4"' Moore
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 7:37 PM Berkeleyan  wrote:
>>
>>> For me, it's a *Tillley*. I have two, one in a greenish tint, the other 
>>> Johnny Cash black. The green goes camping, backpacking, and bicycle 
>>> touring, the black is for Zoom calls and walking to restaurants before 
>>> covid times. They are superb in all aspects of construction, give very good 
>>> shade, are reasonably rain-resistant, have a secret pocket for C-notes, and 
>>> best of all, come in real hat sizes. I have a size 8 head, this is 
>>> important.
>>>
>>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>>
>>>
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>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Hi & Questions...

[Philip Barrett]

Thanks! 

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 4:37:10 AM UTC-6 Ed Carolipio wrote:

> Hi Phillip,
>
> Welcome to the group. There was a long conversion on this topic a couple 
> of years back and, based on what Sam owners say and your preferences, the 
> Sam (most recent one with the cantis) would be optimal. The cantis give you 
> the option to run wider tires (with or without lugs, with or without 
> fenders) relative to the Homer while the Joe geo is better suited to an 
> upright handlebar. (Folks do run Joes with a drop bar: just need a stubby 
> stem.) If you're worried about the cargo carrying capability of the Sam 
> vs the Joe, Sam owners universally say that's not a problem unless you 
> decide to go on an extended bike tour. I've owned a Joe and currently have 
> a Homer.
>
> One caveat on the selection is sizing. Riv bike sizing has wide gaps which 
> don't necessary line up on PBH across different models. As a guess, maybe 
> that's why Riv suggested the Joe? I'd recommend spending a little time on 
> the geometry charts between the Sam and Joe for your PBH, and if you can 
> imagine how your riding position would be using a bike you already own.
>
> Good luck,
> --Ed C.
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 11:52:31 PM UTC-8 philipr...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> New to this group, I actually currently own & ride a Grant Peterson bike 
>> already (Bridgestone MB-1) plus a CIOCC road bike but am interested in 
>> something more dual purpose. The area the bike will be used primarily is 
>> the West Coast of Scotland = narrow, rutted B & C-roads, fast A-Roads & 
>> graded dirt tracks with lots of rain & wind thrown in for good measure. I 
>> like to ride as "spirited" as my late-50s legs will allow, am most 
>> comfortable on the hoods & I may eventually do some minimalist bikepacking 
>> overnights.
>>
>> From looking at the Rivendell range it would seem that the Sam Hillborne 
>> or Homer Hilsen would be a good fit, however the Riv folks also recommended 
>> the Appaloosa.
>>
>> I'd love to hear some opinions on this from the folks that own them & 
>> thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
>>
>> [image: Screen Shot 2020-12-03 at 8.03.40 AM.png]
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: ROADUNO - a new singlespeed!

[scott minor]

+1, Make that four of us pulling for a larger size.  

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[RBW] Re: FS: 650b Tires + Nitto + IRD

[Collin A]

WTB Tires are off and away.

Soma Cazadero, Teravail cannonballs and a swanky IRD BB are still available.

Thanks,
Collin in Sacramento

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 4:29:06 PM UTC-8 Collin A wrote:

> Nitto Stem is sold, the rest is still for sale.
>
> Collin in Sac-Town
>
> On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 3:38:36 PM UTC-8 Collin A wrote:
>
>> Hey Group,
>>
>> I've gone through some recent tire-experiments and finalized the tires 
>> I'd like to use for my Appaloosa. If you want multiple things, I can 
>> combine and save some money on shipping. Photos Here: 
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/D4YDUqGTy17v8PLP7
>>
>> 650x40 Teravail Cannonball Light&Supple Tan: Used these for about 300-ish 
>> miles on a single speed gravel bike back at the start of the pandemic. No 
>> gashes, etc. almost no wear at all on the tread. It's a great set of tires 
>> for a more off-road focused Homer or hillborne, measured at 39mm on A23 
>> rims $70 Shipped. 
>> https://teravail.com/tires/cannonball#TR7268
>>
>> 650x50 Soma Cazaderos: These were a crash replacement for an identical 
>> set of tires that I have since repaired with super glue and dental floss. I 
>> don't have room to hold onto these, sadly. They roll quitely on pavement 
>> and provide good traction on the loose stuff. $80 Shipped. 
>>
>> https://www.rivbike.com/collections/tires/products/soma-cazadero-tires-various-sizes
>>  
>>
>> 650x47 WTB Horizons (TCS tanwall): Got these from another list member and 
>> set them up tubeless - went on a 50 mile ride, but they didn't quite work 
>> for me. They measure right on 47mm on cliffhangers. $60 Shipped. 
>> https://www.wtb.com/collections/road/products/horizon  
>>
>> Nitto Technomic Delux Stem, 90mm stem length 26.0 clamp diam: It has some 
>> markings on the quill, but still in good condition. I also have the 25.4 to 
>> 26.0 shims that I can throw in for another $10 if interested. $40 shipped
>>
>> IRD Scramjet BB (black): This is a shimano hollowtech II compatible BB. 
>> Can be used on both a 73 or 68 shell thanks to the telescoping center. Used 
>> for about 300-ish road miles in fair weather, but has some marring on the 
>> teeth during install/removal. $30 shipped.
>>
>> https://www.interlocracing.com/shop/product/ird-scramjet-bottom-bracket-cups-w-bearings-2550?search=bottom+bracket
>>   
>>
>> I plan to ship USPS, but given the overwhelmed shipping system right now, 
>> expect delivery to take a bit longer than normal.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Collin, it finally rained, in Sacramento
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Bombadil on its Archetypal Route (loads of photos)

[Matthew P]

Awesome Jason.
Thank you for sharing. The route sounds ideal to me. I want smooth trails, 
not death trails.
Your Bombadil might be my favorite bike that isn't mine.
I wish there was a "Best of RBW" to put or tag this post, and other great 
ones, so they could be found easily.
-Matt
San Diego, CA, USA

On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 4:48:40 PM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Andy:  ha, I appreciate the compliment, but the environment gets all the 
> credit for the beauty of the photos; I just haphazardly waved my cell phone 
> around and pushed the button. 
>
> Robert:  I did!  Although I was riding with one other person who fell once 
> (was OK), and my Instagram story of the ice resulted in a half-dozen 
> replies from locals who had fallen on the ice that day!  Studded tires are 
> something I plan to get for my commuter next winter, when I'm back to 
> actually commuting. We have a mild winter here but there's certainly a 
> bunch of frosty mornings over winter that make cycling quite dangerous 
> without studs. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Bombadil on its Archetypal Route (loads of photos)

[Alex K]

Longing for the PNW air, looking at these pictures Are those WAVIE 
bars?  Thinking about switching from BILLIES to Wavies and wondering how 
you like them?

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 7:58:22 AM UTC-8 Matthew P wrote:

> Awesome Jason.
> Thank you for sharing. The route sounds ideal to me. I want smooth trails, 
> not death trails.
> Your Bombadil might be my favorite bike that isn't mine.
> I wish there was a "Best of RBW" to put or tag this post, and other great 
> ones, so they could be found easily.
> -Matt
> San Diego, CA, USA
>
> On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 4:48:40 PM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Andy:  ha, I appreciate the compliment, but the environment gets all the 
>> credit for the beauty of the photos; I just haphazardly waved my cell phone 
>> around and pushed the button. 
>>
>> Robert:  I did!  Although I was riding with one other person who fell 
>> once (was OK), and my Instagram story of the ice resulted in a half-dozen 
>> replies from locals who had fallen on the ice that day!  Studded tires are 
>> something I plan to get for my commuter next winter, when I'm back to 
>> actually commuting. We have a mild winter here but there's certainly a 
>> bunch of frosty mornings over winter that make cycling quite dangerous 
>> without studs. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hi & Questions...

[Roberta]

Hi, Philip.

Welcome.

I have a Joe A. in a 51 and an AHH in a 54.5 (barely fits me, but it does 
fit).  83 pbh.  I'm female, older, and slower rider than most.

I love them both.  I feel "faster" and more spirited on my AHH, than on my 
Joe A. (it's relative because when I track on Strava, I go the same 11mph - 
yeah, I know I'm not a speed demon.)  Our streets here are terrible here 
and if I were only going to be riding on these bad streets, on mountain 
trails and on gravel, I'd stick with my Joe A.  It feels good underneath 
me, but I'm not sure if it's because I have wider tires (47mm) or the frame 
or both.  I actually suspect both.  I ride around without having to worry 
about each pothole I hit.

For me, though, I mainly ride MUPs and for smoother, more spirited riding, 
I prefer my AHH with 42mm tires, no fenders.   I've taken my AHH on the 
same horrible roads (and boardwalks) as I do on my Joe A. and it does very 
well, although I prefer my Joe A on those and I do think it's because I can 
put wider tires on it with fenders. AHH cannot take as wide a tire with or 
without fenders.

So, would you prefer a Cadillac ride with spirit of the Joe A with wider 
tires, or a slightly more sporty car, ride with the AHH, and wide, but not 
as wide tires?  I think you can do more really bad (and good) roads on the 
Joe A, and I love my Joe A, but I feel more spirited on the AHH. (don't get 
me wrong, the Joe A is NOT a dead feeling bike; it's wonderful.)

I think the Sam H. is somewhere between the two, at least that's my 
impression.

BTW, I'm not a real "bikely" person, more of a layperson who likes getting 
out of the house for an hour or two to enjoy the ride.  Nothing technical, 
no S240s, no off-road riding so you have to take that into consideration 
with my observations.  Let me tell you one thing more:  Initially, I was 
going to buy a Sam H., spoke to this Grant guy at Riv HQ (quite a fella as 
I came to find out :) ) and he suggested the Joe A.   I went to the dealer, 
he also had the Joe A there.  One ride around the parking lot on it and I 
was thrilled to pay him more for that Joe A than all the money I'd ever 
spend on all my bikes combined in my lifetime.   I bought the AHH years 
later to have a bike at a second location and have been thrilled with it, 
also.

If you come to Philadelphia and are about my height, you're welcome to try 
both, although I expect you won't want to travel that far to ride bikes.  
Also, I joined the RBW board about 4 years ago, and bought my Joe A about 3 
1/2 years ago, in April 2017.  The great folks on this board were 
instrumental with helping me navigate Riv.  The Joe A has made me so 
happy!Do a search for my name in that time frame and you'll be able to 
read a bunch.  Problem is, it's a hard choice.  The good news is they are 
both great bikes.  I think I also wrote something up about a year ago with 
a "review" of my AHH.

Roberta

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 2:52:31 AM UTC-5 philipr...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> New to this group, I actually currently own & ride a Grant Peterson bike 
> already (Bridgestone MB-1) plus a CIOCC road bike but am interested in 
> something more dual purpose. The area the bike will be used primarily is 
> the West Coast of Scotland = narrow, rutted B & C-roads, fast A-Roads & 
> graded dirt tracks with lots of rain & wind thrown in for good measure. I 
> like to ride as "spirited" as my late-50s legs will allow, am most 
> comfortable on the hoods & I may eventually do some minimalist bikepacking 
> overnights.
>
> From looking at the Rivendell range it would seem that the Sam Hillborne 
> or Homer Hilsen would be a good fit, however the Riv folks also recommended 
> the Appaloosa.
>
> I'd love to hear some opinions on this from the folks that own them & 
> thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
>
> [image: Screen Shot 2020-12-03 at 8.03.40 AM.png]
>

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[RBW] Re: Hi & Questions...

[Roberta]

Ed makes a great point about sizing.  For me, at 83 seems to be the high 
end for most of  Riv's bike sizing, including the Sam H. I was originally 
planning on purchasing.  I think the Joe A fit better than the Sam (and 83 
was at it's midpoint recommendation)  and I've come to find that I prefer 
to be mid to high end of their sizing chart for their bikes.  I ride 
upright bars, as high as they can go--Chocomoose on Joe A, Albas on AHH.  I 
can post pictures tonight if you'd like.

Roberta

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 5:37:10 AM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:

> Hi Phillip,
>
> Welcome to the group. There was a long conversion on this topic a couple 
> of years back and, based on what Sam owners say and your preferences, the 
> Sam (most recent one with the cantis) would be optimal. The cantis give you 
> the option to run wider tires (with or without lugs, with or without 
> fenders) relative to the Homer while the Joe geo is better suited to an 
> upright handlebar. (Folks do run Joes with a drop bar: just need a stubby 
> stem.) If you're worried about the cargo carrying capability of the Sam 
> vs the Joe, Sam owners universally say that's not a problem unless you 
> decide to go on an extended bike tour. I've owned a Joe and currently have 
> a Homer.
>
> One caveat on the selection is sizing. Riv bike sizing has wide gaps which 
> don't necessary line up on PBH across different models. As a guess, maybe 
> that's why Riv suggested the Joe? I'd recommend spending a little time on 
> the geometry charts between the Sam and Joe for your PBH, and if you can 
> imagine how your riding position would be using a bike you already own.
>
> Good luck,
> --Ed C.
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 11:52:31 PM UTC-8 philipr...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> New to this group, I actually currently own & ride a Grant Peterson bike 
>> already (Bridgestone MB-1) plus a CIOCC road bike but am interested in 
>> something more dual purpose. The area the bike will be used primarily is 
>> the West Coast of Scotland = narrow, rutted B & C-roads, fast A-Roads & 
>> graded dirt tracks with lots of rain & wind thrown in for good measure. I 
>> like to ride as "spirited" as my late-50s legs will allow, am most 
>> comfortable on the hoods & I may eventually do some minimalist bikepacking 
>> overnights.
>>
>> From looking at the Rivendell range it would seem that the Sam Hillborne 
>> or Homer Hilsen would be a good fit, however the Riv folks also recommended 
>> the Appaloosa.
>>
>> I'd love to hear some opinions on this from the folks that own them & 
>> thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
>>
>> [image: Screen Shot 2020-12-03 at 8.03.40 AM.png]
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hi & Questions...

[Philip Barrett]

Actually I've ridden Big Bend & across the border into Baja & Nuevo Leon 
many times! Mostly on dirt motorcycles but also some MTB stuff, I love the 
desert too. I live full time on Dallas (my job is US based) & we're 
commuting back & forward (well pre-COVID that was the plan at least) as we 
build a house on Skye. Provided you can stand wind & rain, there's 
tremendous riding in the Highlands & Islands all within easy reach, the 
roads get busy with RVs & buses in the summer but the rest of the time it's 
you & the wee ewes. Look on YouTube for cycling the Northwest 500, the 
Hebridean Way (a short ferry ride from us) or the West Highland Way, 
guarantee you'll be packing your bags!

Since my goal is to ride to the trails, then ride the actual trails I'm 
actually starting to think that I may need something a little more off-road 
focused than the Rivendell's though? The Kona Sutra ULTD looks like an 
interesting candidate with relaxed geometry & good 'ol steel bones. Of 
course, nothing like the exquisite build or the great story of the Rivs...

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-6 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I can't give you much help in answering your question -- my Rivendells 
> have all been road bikes -- but I can say welcome to the group, and, please 
> post more photos (and descriptions) of your Scottish riding environment. I 
> myself live in the high-desert US Southwest, at the polar opposite, 
> aesthetically and geographically, from your area, but my distant Celtic 
> roots (Scots Irish on father's paternal side) feel a wave of nostalgia from 
> such pictures as this one you posted.
>
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 11:52:31 PM UTC-8 philipr...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
> >
> > New to this group, I actually currently own & ride a Grant Peterson bike 
> already (Bridgestone MB-1) plus a CIOCC road bike but am interested in 
> something more dual purpose. The area the bike will be used primarily is 
> the West Coast of Scotland = narrow, rutted B & C-roads, fast A-Roads & 
> graded dirt tracks with lots of rain & wind thrown in for good measure. I 
> like to ride as "spirited" as my late-50s legs will allow, am most 
> comfortable on the hoods & I may eventually do some minimalist bikepacking 
> overnights.
> >
> > From looking at the Rivendell range it would seem that the Sam Hillborne 
> or Homer Hilsen would be a good fit, however the Riv folks also recommended 
> the Appaloosa.
> >
> > I'd love to hear some opinions on this from the folks that own them & 
> thanks in advance for any advice you can give. 
> [image: image.png]
>
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Mike Godwin]

Patrick, 
Photo with new Honjos, did you install a rear fender on the front? Or is 
that the normal front fender length for Honjo fenders?

Mike SLO CA


On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:41:19 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having sweated 
> over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>
> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>
> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or 
> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still 
> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the 
> blackwall tires.
>
> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look 
> better on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
>> think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and yes): 
>>
>> This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto 
>> RBW51 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it 
>> I'm thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, 
>> and find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think 
>> racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support rack 
>> and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping 
>> bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the 
>> olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? Do 
>> they need to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker 
>> Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter? 
>>
>> Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/58c96a66-ba8d-40bb-a1ec-b1af98a426cfn%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Brett Callahan]

Joe, I can certainly appreciate spending too much time worrying about 
aesthetics when you should be riding. Plus, this year in particular, I hope 
we all "need to get out more." I think you have a great looking bike that 
doesn't fall into a easily classified niche and the attendant (perceived) 
aesthetic roles that come with that kind of classification. It doesn't call 
out to me for fenders, and I don't think the rack is going to change that. 
Like Robert says, getting the rack level is far more important! 

IMHO, certain bikes DO need fenders (regardless of racks or other 
accessories.) For example, a 650b rando bike looks absolutely naked without 
metal fenders to my mind. Like...they should be tagged NSFW on Instagram. 
But I also need to get out more. 

Brett, in, in Portland. 



On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 10:05:22 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
> think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and yes): 
>
> This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto RBW51 
> rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it I'm 
> thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, and 
> find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think racks 
> need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support rack and a 
> bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping bikes now, 
> but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the olden days 
> which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? Do they need 
> to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker Rivendell 
> already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter? 
>
> Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard
>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Ben Mihovk]

I'd never set up my bike based on what other people think looks right. :)

But...since you asked, I think the kinds of bikes I want to ride always
look better with fenders.

Ben

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 10:41 AM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having sweated
> over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>
> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>
> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or
> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still
> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the
> blackwall tires.
>
> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look
> better on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to
>> think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and yes):
>>
>> This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto
>> RBW51 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it
>> I'm thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them,
>> and find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think
>> racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support rack
>> and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping
>> bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the
>> olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? Do
>> they need to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker
>> Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter?
>>
>> Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/58c96a66-ba8d-40bb-a1ec-b1af98a426cfn%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> --
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Bombadil on its Archetypal Route (loads of photos)

[Jason Fuller]

Thanks so much Matt!  I am glad this post was so well-received. 

The handlebars are MAP / Ahearne, 610mm width, quite similar to the Wavie 
bar.  I really like them, I had originally planned on Billie's for this 
bike but the 45-ish degree sweep gives me better bike control than the 
near-90 Billie or Albatross style bars when off-road. 

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Re: [RBW] Bombadil on its Archetypal Route (loads of photos)

[Benjamin L. Kelley]

I'm running wavies on my QB and love em.  Compared to Sycip JJJ, Surly
Open, and Dimension Arch bars I have/had on other bikes.  I think the wavie
is a bit more comfortable for my biking posture.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 10:08 AM Alex K  wrote:

> Longing for the PNW air, looking at these pictures Are those WAVIE
> bars?  Thinking about switching from BILLIES to Wavies and wondering how
> you like them?
>
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 7:58:22 AM UTC-8 Matthew P wrote:
>
>> Awesome Jason.
>> Thank you for sharing. The route sounds ideal to me. I want smooth
>> trails, not death trails.
>> Your Bombadil might be my favorite bike that isn't mine.
>> I wish there was a "Best of RBW" to put or tag this post, and other great
>> ones, so they could be found easily.
>> -Matt
>> San Diego, CA, USA
>>
>> On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 4:48:40 PM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> Andy:  ha, I appreciate the compliment, but the environment gets all the
>>> credit for the beauty of the photos; I just haphazardly waved my cell phone
>>> around and pushed the button.
>>>
>>> Robert:  I did!  Although I was riding with one other person who fell
>>> once (was OK), and my Instagram story of the ice resulted in a half-dozen
>>> replies from locals who had fallen on the ice that day!  Studded tires are
>>> something I plan to get for my commuter next winter, when I'm back to
>>> actually commuting. We have a mild winter here but there's certainly a
>>> bunch of frosty mornings over winter that make cycling quite dangerous
>>> without studs.
>>>
>> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Jason Fuller]

I am firmly in the "yes, you should also install fenders!" camp. I think 
they'd be a great aesthetic addition to your custom, but also, I value 
fenders for more than just rain protection: the keep whatever you may run 
over from being flung towards you, ie animal poop. 

I imagine some smooth 62's from Simworks / Honjo would look great and fit 
the tires nicely

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[RBW] Re: Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Jeffrey Arita]

Joe,

*VERY *nice bike!

My opinion:  I appreciate in most cases what a bicycle looks like, but 
being of the engineering mindset I typically go with 'if it is desperately 
needed, then do it.'  Thus, if you cycle in rainy weather then by all means 
install mudguards.  If your weather happens to be mostly dry then I would 
probably forego them.

I have installed my fair share of mudguards on bicycles as we've cycled 
many different places (rainy places, normal afternoon thundershowers, 
etc.).  I definitely agree that patience is required.

Either way, you have a fantastic ride - enjoy it!

Best regards,

Jeff
Claremont, CA

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 10:05:22 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
> think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and yes): 
>
> This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto RBW51 
> rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it I'm 
> thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, and 
> find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think racks 
> need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support rack and a 
> bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping bikes now, 
> but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the olden days 
> which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? Do they need 
> to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker Rivendell 
> already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter? 
>
> Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard
>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Jack Barnes]

Patrick, what rear rack are you using on the 2003 Curt? Looks like Nitto 
but not a model I've seen.

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:41:19 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having sweated 
> over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>
> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>
> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or 
> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still 
> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the 
> blackwall tires.
>
> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look 
> better on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
>> think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and yes): 
>>
>> This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto 
>> RBW51 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it 
>> I'm thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, 
>> and find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think 
>> racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support rack 
>> and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping 
>> bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the 
>> olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? Do 
>> they need to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker 
>> Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter? 
>>
>> Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/58c96a66-ba8d-40bb-a1ec-b1af98a426cfn%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Assorted Trangia Stuff

[Shawn Granton]

Hello folks! Some stuff has sold. Here is the updated list:

>
> *New stuff for $10 each*
>
>
>- Frying pan for the 27 Stormcooker set, anodized aluminum. 18cm/7in 
>diameter. You’ll need a pot grabber to use properly (not included.)
>- Strainer/cutting board for the 25 Stormcooker set. Designed to nest 
>into a 25 frying pan (not included), can be used to strain water from 
>pasta, etc. Also can be used as a cutting board.
>- Large saucepan/cookpot, 4.5 litre. Sits the same way as the large 
>kettle above.
>
> Photos here:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/urbanadventureleaguepdx/albums/72157717264092892
>
> Thank you,
> Shawn
>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Esteban]

Fenders always offer a more finished look. They can also be removed for 
dirt stuff... although I must admit that I almost never remove mine. 

Esteban
San Diego, Calif.

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 10:50:39 AM UTC-8 Jack Barnes wrote:

> Patrick, what rear rack are you using on the 2003 Curt? Looks like Nitto 
> but not a model I've seen.
>
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:41:19 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having sweated 
>> over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>>
>> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>>
>> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or 
>> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still 
>> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the 
>> blackwall tires.
>>
>> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look 
>> better on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>>> I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
>>> think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and yes): 
>>>
>>> This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto 
>>> RBW51 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it 
>>> I'm thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, 
>>> and find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think 
>>> racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support rack 
>>> and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping 
>>> bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the 
>>> olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? Do 
>>> they need to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker 
>>> Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter? 
>>>
>>> Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/58c96a66-ba8d-40bb-a1ec-b1af98a426cfn%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Ride suggestions for San Diego area

[Esteban]

Lots of great stuff on offer here, including thirst for great beer - 
although great beer is everywhere now... and I'm at home. 

I like to mix in these dirt roads/trails: Echo Valley/Proctor Valley; 
Sloane Canyon; Peñasquitos Reserve, Del Mar Mesa, Viejas Grade... wherever 
there is a dirt linkage. San Diego County has superb, year-round road 
riding and technical mountain biking -- finding the in-between sometime 
requires a little bit of each. 

Let's go!

Esteban
San Diego, Calif.

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 11:24:31 AM UTC-8 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

> I've never biked out in San Diego, but I've taken two awesome spring break 
> trips to go to breweries and play golf with a buddy. This thread is making 
> me long for being out there for a few days. I'd give anything to play a 
> round at Goat Hill Park in O-Side, grab lunch at Pizza Port, hit all my 
> favorite breweries after, and wake up and get breakfast at the Potato Shack 
> in Encinitas. 
>
> Ben, "spectacularly off-topic and freezing" in Omaha. 
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 12:58 PM Cory Hughes  wrote:
>
>> Robert's suggestions were spot-on.  Those are all pretty close to I-15 
>> and have plenty of fire road to explore.  Peñasquitos Preserve can be 
>> linked up with some paved paths and road to make it out to the coast at 
>> Torrey Pines.  I used to have a loop from Poway down Poway Creek trail 
>> through PQ to the coast and then back on Miramar Rd (not a fun part) to 
>> make one big car-less lap from my house.  There are also a lot of more 
>> challenging climbs on either side of the canyon so you can add some variety 
>> or cruise down the main fire road to the "waterfall" and beyond.  I rode 
>> there and Daley Ranch a lot growing up.  A permit is a good idea if riding 
>> Sycamore Canyon, I didn't know that was an option.  It is pretty easy to 
>> wander on to gov't land out there and I hear they aren't keen on that these 
>> days.  
>>
>> Cory "spent the first 22 years of my life in San Diego" Hughes
>> Portland Oregon
>>
>> On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 10:25:25 PM UTC-8 mkernan...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Curtis and Robert for the ride suggestions.  These seem like a 
>>> great start.   I actually did ride Elfin Forest yesterday and the climb up 
>>> was steep and hike a bike but one you get up there you’re sort of riding a 
>>> ridge line.   One thing that is new to me in SoCal cycling are goatheads. 
>>> I’ve seen posts about them. I must have 10 in each tire but tires didn’t go 
>>> flat until I started pulling them out when I was done the ride.  I’m 
>>> excited to explore the area and experience different terrain.   
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 10, 2020, at 5:42 PM, Curtis McKenzie  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Mike,
>>>
>>> Welcome to San Diego.  The Laguna Mountains east of us offer some nice 
>>> dirt roads and trails.  A bit closer is Mission Trails Park which has some 
>>> roads/trails that might be more geared for mountain bikes. Check out both 
>>> places online.
>>>
>>> Ride well,
>>>
>>> Curtis
>>> El Cajon 
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020, 2:49 PM Michael Williams  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hey group.  I recently moved to San Diego and was wondering if any list 
 members had any suggestions/ recommendations for San Diego County area. 
 Something within a 30-45 drive from the city.  Looking for fire road/ 
 mixed 
 terrain/ gravel/ dirt,  anything really that’s gets away from traffic.   I 
 know there’s probably modern MTB trails that might be too crazy for Rivs.  
 Thank you!   -Mike

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>>> 
>>> .
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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Joe Bernard]

See I agree with you and Jason, and I also agree when someone has the 
opposing view on this topic. I'm ridiculous! 🤪



On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 12:04:59 PM UTC-8 Esteban wrote:

> Fenders always offer a more finished look. They can also be removed for 
> dirt stuff... although I must admit that I almost never remove mine. 
>
> Esteban
> San Diego, Calif.
>
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 10:50:39 AM UTC-8 Jack Barnes wrote:
>
>> Patrick, what rear rack are you using on the 2003 Curt? Looks like Nitto 
>> but not a model I've seen.
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:41:19 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having 
>>> sweated over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>>>
>>> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>>>
>>> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or 
>>> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still 
>>> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the 
>>> blackwall tires.
>>>
>>> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look 
>>> better on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
 I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
 think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and 
 yes): 

 This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto 
 RBW51 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it 
 I'm thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, 
 and find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think 
 racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support 
 rack 
 and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping 
 bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the 
 olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? 
 Do 
 they need to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker 
 Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter? 

 Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard

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 .

>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Jay Lonner]

I absolutely would not run fenders if I didn’t live in a rainy climate. 
Aesthetics is part of it - I like the more muscular look of an unfendered bike 
(bikepacking rigs representing an extreme example). Fenders also limit tire 
size, can interfere with brake straddle cables, and in muddy conditions can get 
jammed up pretty quickly (a few years ago we rode the Canal du Midi after a wet 
spring and spent a *lot* of time prying “la boue” from under the fenders). 
While it hasn’t happened to me, fenders have the potential to fail 
catastrophically if a stay breaks and gets caught in the spokes at speed. Plus 
there’s the rattles, potentially finicky installation, the up-front expense, 
etc... Given my local climate I’ve come to regard them as a necessary evil, but 
still evil.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

> On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:05 PM, Esteban  wrote:
> 
> Fenders always offer a more finished look. They can also be removed for dirt 
> stuff... although I must admit that I almost never remove mine. 
> 
> Esteban
> San Diego, Calif.
> 
>> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 10:50:39 AM UTC-8 Jack Barnes wrote:
>> Patrick, what rear rack are you using on the 2003 Curt? Looks like Nitto but 
>> not a model I've seen.
>> 
>>> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:41:19 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having sweated 
>>> over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>>> 
>>> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>>> 
>>> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or 
>>> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still 
>>> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the 
>>> blackwall tires.
>>> 
>>> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look better 
>>> on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>>> 
 On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
 I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
 think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and 
 yes): 
 
 This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto RBW51 
 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it I'm 
 thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, and 
 find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think 
 racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support 
 rack and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with 
 gravel/camping bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' 
 look of the olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So 
 whaddyathink? Do they need to go together to look "right", or is my 
 drop-toptube low-kicker Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it 
 doesn't freaking matter? 
 
 Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard
>>> 
 -- 
>>> 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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 email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>> 
>>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Joe Bernard]

That is definitely not good. I don't ride in mud but I see your point! 😳



On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 12:33:28 PM UTC-8 Jay Lonner wrote:

> A mud-packed fender on the Canal du Midi - this was a constant problem!
>
>
>
> Sent from my Atari 400
>
> On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:24 PM, Jay Lonner  wrote:
>
> I absolutely would not run fenders if I didn’t live in a rainy climate. 
> Aesthetics is part of it - I like the more muscular look of an unfendered 
> bike (bikepacking rigs representing an extreme example). Fenders also limit 
> tire size, can interfere with brake straddle cables, and in muddy 
> conditions can get jammed up pretty quickly (a few years ago we rode the 
> Canal du Midi after a wet spring and spent a *lot* of time prying “la boue” 
> from under the fenders). While it hasn’t happened to me, fenders have the 
> potential to fail catastrophically if a stay breaks and gets caught in the 
> spokes at speed. Plus there’s the rattles, potentially finicky 
> installation, the up-front expense, etc... Given my local climate I’ve come 
> to regard them as a necessary evil, but still evil.
>
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>
> Sent from my Atari 400
>
> On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:05 PM, Esteban  wrote:
>
> Fenders always offer a more finished look. They can also be removed for 
> dirt stuff... although I must admit that I almost never remove mine. 
>
> Esteban
> San Diego, Calif.
>
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 10:50:39 AM UTC-8 Jack Barnes wrote:
>
>> Patrick, what rear rack are you using on the 2003 Curt? Looks like Nitto 
>> but not a model I've seen.
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:41:19 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having 
>>> sweated over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>>>
>>> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>>>
>>> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or 
>>> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still 
>>> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the 
>>> blackwall tires.
>>>
>>> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look 
>>> better on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
 I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
 think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and 
 yes): 

 This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto 
 RBW51 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it 
 I'm thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, 
 and find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think 
 racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support 
 rack 
 and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping 
 bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the 
 olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? 
 Do 
 they need to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker 
 Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter? 

 Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard

 -- 

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 Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
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 .

>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>>
>>> -- 
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Jason Fuller]

Brake clearance is a good point since you have V-brakes. Fenders are a 
safety feature for canti's since if your cable snaps the straddle cable 
can't drop onto the tire and catch on the knobs.  But they do pose 
potential risks as mentioned - stay into the spoke seems unlikely to me, 
since they tend to swing outwards if they come un-done, but if a stick 
finds its way between the tire and fender you've got a recipe for a bent 
fork and trip over the handlebars!  Rare but happens. I'm actually waiting 
on some PDW fender stays that have a break-away design for the Bombadil, 
since it's the bike this is most likely to occur on. 



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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Joe Bernard]

Indeed I forgot about the v-brake situation, which would be a challenge 
with these big tires and the fenders they require. Question answered! I 
have the bag now (thanks Leah!) and the rack on the way (thanks Jamison!) 
so they're going on and then I'll ride a while and probably decide it's 
fine just like that. Or change my mind and buy fancy fenders. Could go 
either way 😬

Joe "this, but on the other hand that" Bernard

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 12:45:39 PM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Brake clearance is a good point since you have V-brakes. Fenders are a 
> safety feature for canti's since if your cable snaps the straddle cable 
> can't drop onto the tire and catch on the knobs.  But they do pose 
> potential risks as mentioned - stay into the spoke seems unlikely to me, 
> since they tend to swing outwards if they come un-done, but if a stick 
> finds its way between the tire and fender you've got a recipe for a bent 
> fork and trip over the handlebars!  Rare but happens. I'm actually waiting 
> on some PDW fender stays that have a break-away design for the Bombadil, 
> since it's the bike this is most likely to occur on. 
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Aluminum Fenders for Babyshoe Pass

[Kieran J]

You might also consider the VO Zepplin 52mm:
https://velo-orange.com/products/vo-polished-52mm-zeppelin-fenders-650b

These are my favourite fenders (700c version).

KJ


On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 12:17:25 PM UTC-8 Bones wrote:

> I'm sure this has been covered before but I can't seem to dig it up. I'm 
> looking at Rene Herse and Honjo (or anything else). I've only ever used SKS 
> in the past. Which size is my best bet?
>
> Babyshoe Pass (standard casing)
> Velocity A23 rims (set up tubeless)
> Crust Lightning Bolt Canti
>
> Much appreciated,
> Bones
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: ROADUNO - a new singlespeed!

[Bill Lindsay]

If you ~100cm PBH folks are serious, I bet you could make it happen.  We 
all know Grant knows how to design a 65cm Roaduno.  I'd say the chances are 
decent that he already has it.  The only reason Rivendell Bicycle Works 
doesn't go 'one size larger' or 'one size smaller' is they don't have the 
cash or space to tie up in the inventory.  If you ~100cm PBH folks want to 
self-assemble and make it happen, you could definitely make it happen with 
dollars.  You'd want to find one really nice and really informed individual 
to volunteer to be your spokesperson.  Have that very nice and very 
informed person talk with Will, and plan on your group of buyers being 
prepared to prepay to the tune of ~$10,000 of Rivendell Gift Certificates.  
If your group of tall folks could present Riv with that one nice and smart 
spokesperson and $10k of cashflow, then I'd bet your chances would be good 
that you could get that 65cm Roaduno to happen.  Prepaying for bikes is a 
business model that is keeping Rivendell going.  It's something they are 
comfortable with doing, so if you can leverage that to your benefit, it's a 
win-win.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 7:25:08 AM UTC-8 psc...@gmail.com wrote:

> +1, Make that four of us pulling for a larger size.  
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[EricP]

Used to be very much in the camp of fenders with rack. Even if the bike 
didn't really want fenders (i.e. Surly Ogre). That changed this summer. Was 
tired of always having to adjust the rear fender on the Hillborne with new 
tires and having problems with the long reach sidepull brake on the front. 
Also in the last couple of years just realized I rarely ride in the rain 
anymore. So, off came the fenders on the Hillborne. Definitely looks 
different and can now run slightly larger tires, which was the other goal.

The Clem does not have fenders and no intention of installing them. Am 
hoping to get larger tires also, and it's just too much trouble to get 
everything dialed in to the point I want. 

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 2:56:47 PM UTC-6 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Indeed I forgot about the v-brake situation, which would be a challenge 
> with these big tires and the fenders they require. Question answered! I 
> have the bag now (thanks Leah!) and the rack on the way (thanks Jamison!) 
> so they're going on and then I'll ride a while and probably decide it's 
> fine just like that. Or change my mind and buy fancy fenders. Could go 
> either way 😬
>
> Joe "this, but on the other hand that" Bernard
>
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 12:45:39 PM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Brake clearance is a good point since you have V-brakes. Fenders are a 
>> safety feature for canti's since if your cable snaps the straddle cable 
>> can't drop onto the tire and catch on the knobs.  But they do pose 
>> potential risks as mentioned - stay into the spoke seems unlikely to me, 
>> since they tend to swing outwards if they come un-done, but if a stick 
>> finds its way between the tire and fender you've got a recipe for a bent 
>> fork and trip over the handlebars!  Rare but happens. I'm actually waiting 
>> on some PDW fender stays that have a break-away design for the Bombadil, 
>> since it's the bike this is most likely to occur on. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Garth]

Your bike looks great as-is Joe. 

I don't find fenders especially appealing myself. Neither in looks or dead 
rattling weight, let alone setting them up.

I'd rather see the whole voluminous shape of the tire. visible tires 
"look cool" .  

It's like putting sauce on a really good grilled steakoh God  W H Y ? 
Leave it alone as-is ! 

I don't recall ever seeing touring bikes or any bikes with fenders where I 
grew up in Minnesota. 

Just the facts  Joe. (Old time Dragnet reference)



On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 3:04:59 PM UTC-5 Esteban wrote:

> Fenders always offer a more finished look. They can also be removed for 
> dirt stuff... although I must admit that I almost never remove mine. 
>
> Esteban
> San Diego, Calif.
>
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 10:50:39 AM UTC-8 Jack Barnes wrote:
>
>> Patrick, what rear rack are you using on the 2003 Curt? Looks like Nitto 
>> but not a model I've seen.
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:41:19 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having 
>>> sweated over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>>>
>>> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>>>
>>> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or 
>>> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still 
>>> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the 
>>> blackwall tires.
>>>
>>> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look 
>>> better on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
 I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to 
 think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and 
 yes): 

 This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto 
 RBW51 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it 
 I'm thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them, 
 and find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think 
 racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support 
 rack 
 and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping 
 bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the 
 olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? 
 Do 
 they need to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker 
 Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter? 

 Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard

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>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: ROADUNO - a new singlespeed!

[greenteadrinkers]

Super interesting to see this new single (double?) speed! This past fall, I 
finally had the funds to get my SimpleOne built up for riding here in hilly 
western mass. Here's a link to some images post by my LBS, they put 
together the bar, stem, brake, and fenders (they also built the wheelset). 
The stem is now about two inches lower than pictured.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHdvFFoF-CO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Scott



On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:05:42 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote:

> If you ~100cm PBH folks are serious, I bet you could make it happen.  We 
> all know Grant knows how to design a 65cm Roaduno.  I'd say the chances are 
> decent that he already has it.  The only reason Rivendell Bicycle Works 
> doesn't go 'one size larger' or 'one size smaller' is they don't have the 
> cash or space to tie up in the inventory.  If you ~100cm PBH folks want to 
> self-assemble and make it happen, you could definitely make it happen with 
> dollars.  You'd want to find one really nice and really informed individual 
> to volunteer to be your spokesperson.  Have that very nice and very 
> informed person talk with Will, and plan on your group of buyers being 
> prepared to prepay to the tune of ~$10,000 of Rivendell Gift Certificates.  
> If your group of tall folks could present Riv with that one nice and smart 
> spokesperson and $10k of cashflow, then I'd bet your chances would be good 
> that you could get that 65cm Roaduno to happen.  Prepaying for bikes is a 
> business model that is keeping Rivendell going.  It's something they are 
> comfortable with doing, so if you can leverage that to your benefit, it's a 
> win-win.
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 7:25:08 AM UTC-8 psc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> +1, Make that four of us pulling for a larger size.  
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Racks/fenders, an aesthetics question

[Patrick Moore]

It was a custom.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:50 AM Jack Barnes  wrote:

> Patrick, what rear rack are you using on the 2003 Curt? Looks like Nitto
> but not a model I've seen.
>
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:41:19 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I think you need to get out more. Still, I can sympathize, having sweated
>> over similar trivial but obsessive questions myself.
>>
>> My opinion is no, racks sans fenders don't look odd.
>>
>> The 2003 Curt in earlier appearances: racks no fenders, no racks or
>> fenders, racks plus fenders, rear shortened, and rack with flowers, a still
>> life. I think that the bike looks fine in each mode, apart from the
>> blackwall tires.
>>
>> Note that, for my own personal aesthetic opinion, tanwell tires look
>> better on bikes like this than blackwall tires.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:05 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>>> I need opinions on this matter because I've wrestled with it enough to
>>> think I might be bonkers loony and need to get out more (probably and yes):
>>>
>>> This is my Riv Custom (pictured below) and it's about to get a Nitto
>>> RBW51 rear rack to support a gray Medium Saddlesack. To go along with it
>>> I'm thinking of adding fenders even though I don't particularly need them,
>>> and find them to be a bit of a fussy headache. Here's my dilemma: I think
>>> racks need fenders. Like it looks wrong if you just have a bag-support rack
>>> and a bag over a bare tire. I know this is a thing with gravel/camping
>>> bikes now, but my brain is stuck on the 'full touring bike' look of the
>>> olden days which always had racks and fenders together. So whaddyathink? Do
>>> they need to go together to look "right", or is my drop-toptube low-kicker
>>> Rivendell already non-traditional enough that it doesn't freaking matter?
>>>
>>> Joe "he needs to get out more" Bernard
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/58c96a66-ba8d-40bb-a1ec-b1af98a426cfn%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
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> .
>


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---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: FS: 650b Tires + Nitto + IRD

[Paul Choi]

Which tires did you decide worked the best for your bike and riding style.

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 3:38:36 PM UTC-8 Collin A wrote:

> Hey Group,
>
> I've gone through some recent tire-experiments and finalized the tires I'd 
> like to use for my Appaloosa. If you want multiple things, I can combine 
> and save some money on shipping. Photos Here: 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/D4YDUqGTy17v8PLP7
>
> 650x40 Teravail Cannonball Light&Supple Tan: Used these for about 300-ish 
> miles on a single speed gravel bike back at the start of the pandemic. No 
> gashes, etc. almost no wear at all on the tread. It's a great set of tires 
> for a more off-road focused Homer or hillborne, measured at 39mm on A23 
> rims $70 Shipped. 
> https://teravail.com/tires/cannonball#TR7268
>
> 650x50 Soma Cazaderos: These were a crash replacement for an identical set 
> of tires that I have since repaired with super glue and dental floss. I 
> don't have room to hold onto these, sadly. They roll quitely on pavement 
> and provide good traction on the loose stuff. $80 Shipped. 
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/collections/tires/products/soma-cazadero-tires-various-sizes
>  
>
> 650x47 WTB Horizons (TCS tanwall): Got these from another list member and 
> set them up tubeless - went on a 50 mile ride, but they didn't quite work 
> for me. They measure right on 47mm on cliffhangers. $60 Shipped. 
> https://www.wtb.com/collections/road/products/horizon  
>
> Nitto Technomic Delux Stem, 90mm stem length 26.0 clamp diam: It has some 
> markings on the quill, but still in good condition. I also have the 25.4 to 
> 26.0 shims that I can throw in for another $10 if interested. $40 shipped
>
> IRD Scramjet BB (black): This is a shimano hollowtech II compatible BB. 
> Can be used on both a 73 or 68 shell thanks to the telescoping center. Used 
> for about 300-ish road miles in fair weather, but has some marring on the 
> teeth during install/removal. $30 shipped.
>
> https://www.interlocracing.com/shop/product/ird-scramjet-bottom-bracket-cups-w-bearings-2550?search=bottom+bracket
>   
>
> I plan to ship USPS, but given the overwhelmed shipping system right now, 
> expect delivery to take a bit longer than normal.
>
> Cheers,
> Collin, it finally rained, in Sacramento
>

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[RBW] Re: ROADUNO - a new singlespeed!

[Paul Choi]

What would this sell for, $1,400 complete?

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 3:03:18 PM UTC-8 Nathan F wrote:

> From today's BLAHG:
>
> "1. *RoadUno,* a onespeed derailerless country-kind of bike (not modeled 
> after a track bike). For pavement, town, commutes. It's not a trail bike. 
> You can ride it on dirt and gravel roads, but it's kind of rude to ride it 
> on hilly and rough trails. More on it way below."
>
> Sounds great. I'm praying for purple (no grey or RBW Blue, please--sorry 
> but they use 'em too much) and v-brakes. Based on the name I think the 
> latter is unlikely : (
>
> - Nathan in PDX
>

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[RBW] Re: Tire rub rehab. Suggestions?

[Justin]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions folks. I'm quite reluctant to attack 
the spots with spray paint but may try something less aggressive. 

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 1:47:24 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

> My trusty 2018 Riv Catalog - which I inexplicably have four of - says you 
> can use Sally Hansen's clear nail polish. Actually it says you can use 
> fuschia, too, cuz they're crazy and would do it on a blue frame, but clear 
> is good 👍
>
>
>
> On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 7:23:22 PM UTC-8 Justin wrote:
>
>> Sunday I found myself trapped on a 12 mile stretch of sticky trail of 
>> gritty mud. Had to stop numerous times to clear my brakes and stays of mud 
>> so the wheels would keep turning. Once home a cleaning with the hose 
>> revealed four spots on the forks and chain stays taken to bare metal from 
>> just the one ride. Now I know what you are thinking but look at the photos 
>> included showing plenty of clearance. 
>>
>> Any suggestions for treating the bare spots? Not at all concerned with 
>> cosmetic appearance just want to protect the metal from rust and what not.
>>
>> thanks for reading!
>>
>> [image: 50719588973_c17cd2bf59_c[1].jpg]
>> [image: 50721552116_e965f95666_c[1].jpg]
>> [image: 50720408017_3b8fba3242_c[1].jpg]
>> [image: 50720815638_ba714ec029_c[1].jpg]
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: FS- sugino triple crank

[Adam]

Sold. Thanks all!


On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 4:17:33 AM UTC-8, Adam wrote:
> Bump.

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[RBW] Re: Aluminum Fenders for Babyshoe Pass

[Bones]

Thanks for the input! 

Bones

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-5 Kieran J wrote:

> You might also consider the VO Zepplin 52mm:
> https://velo-orange.com/products/vo-polished-52mm-zeppelin-fenders-650b
>
> These are my favourite fenders (700c version).
>
> KJ
>
>
> On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 12:17:25 PM UTC-8 Bones wrote:
>
>> I'm sure this has been covered before but I can't seem to dig it up. I'm 
>> looking at Rene Herse and Honjo (or anything else). I've only ever used SKS 
>> in the past. Which size is my best bet?
>>
>> Babyshoe Pass (standard casing)
>> Velocity A23 rims (set up tubeless)
>> Crust Lightning Bolt Canti
>>
>> Much appreciated,
>> Bones
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: ROADUNO - a new singlespeed!

[Sky Coulter]

My guess would be closer to 1800-2000.

Sky in new west

> On Dec 15, 2020, at 7:32 PM, Paul Choi  wrote:
> 
> What would this sell for, $1,400 complete?
> 
>> On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 3:03:18 PM UTC-8 Nathan F wrote:
>> From today's BLAHG:
>> 
>> "1. RoadUno, a onespeed derailerless country-kind of bike (not modeled after 
>> a track bike). For pavement, town, commutes. It's not a trail bike. You can 
>> ride it on dirt and gravel roads, but it's kind of rude to ride it on hilly 
>> and rough trails. More on it way below."
>> 
>> Sounds great. I'm praying for purple (no grey or RBW Blue, please--sorry but 
>> they use 'em too much) and v-brakes. Based on the name I think the latter is 
>> unlikely : (
>> 
>> - Nathan in PDX
> 
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