Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

Greetings

(Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
a complex question.)

I have been using computers for a long time but am only beginning my
foray into the
galaxy of programming. Have done little to this point besides
collection of information
on sensors and working on the logic of what I wish to accomplish. Have
been reading code that accompanies other's projects in the process of
self development.

Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
supposed to do even
before all the hardware has been assembled and installed and tested?

(Many years ago I remember an article (if not an issue) in Byte magazine about
mathematically proven constructs a.k.a. programs - - - this idea is
what I'm pursuing.
The concept is that in non-trivial programs there are plenty of places where a
poorly placed symbol or lack of a character will result in at best an inaccurate
result and at worst - - - no result. This is the kind of thing
(correct code) that I'm
hoping to accomplish - - - to rephrase the question - - - how do I
test for that?)

TIA
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 4:54 PM Grant Edwards via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On 2023-10-24, Dan Purgert via Python-list  wrote:
> > On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote:
> >> Greetings
> >>
> >> (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
> >> a complex question.)
> >> [...]
> >> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
> >> supposed to do even before all the hardware has been assembled and
> >> installed and tested?
> >
> > In short, no.
> >
> > Reality is a mess, and even if you've programmed/perfectly/ to the
> > datasheets (and passed our unit-tests that are also based on those
> > datasheets), a piece of hardware may not actually conform to what's
> > written.  Maybe the sheet is wrong, maybe the hardware is faulty, etc.
>
> And the specified customer requirements are usually wrong too. Sure,
> the customer said it is supposed to do X, but what they actually
> needed was Y.
>
> And the protocol spec isn't quite right either.  Sure, it says "when A
> is received reply with B", but what everybody really does is slighty
> different, and you need to do what everybody else does, or the widget
> you're talking to won't cooperate.
>
> And floating point doesn't really work the way you think it
> does. Sometimes it does, close-enough, for the test-cases you happened
> to choose...
>
Fascinating - - - except here I get to wear almost all of the hats.
I'm putting together the hardware, I get to do the programming and I
will be running the completed equipment.

I am asking so that I'm not chasing my tail for inordinate amounts of time
- - - grin!

Interesting ideas so far.
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 5:28 PM Rob Cliffe  wrote:
>
> There is no general way to prove that a program is "correct".  Or even
> whether it will terminate or loop endlessly.
> These are of course theoretical statements of computer science.  But
> they can be rigorously proven.  (Sorry if I'm just saying this to show
> what a smart-ass I am. 🙂)
> In practice, of course, there is often a great deal that can be done to
> "verify" (a word whose meaning I intentionally leave vague) a program's
> correctness.
> In your case, it sounds as if you should
>
>  Write programs or functions to simulate each piece of hardware and
> generate random, but reasonably realistic, data.  (Python and most other
> programming languages provide means of generating random or
> pseudo-random data.)
>  In your main program:
>  Replace the bits of code that accept data from the hardware by
> bits of code that accept data from these simulation programs/functions.
>  Write the decisions it makes to a log file (or files).
>  Run the program as long as you can or until your patience is
> exhausted, and check from the log file(s) that it is behaving as you
> would expect.
>
> This is not guaranteed to catch all possible errors.  (Nothing is.) E.g.
>  The original code to accept data from the hardware (code that you
> remove in your test version of the program) might be wrong. Duh!
>  There might be specific sets of input data that happen not to arise
> in your testing, but that your program logic does not cope with.
> Nonetheless, this sort of testing (if done diligently) can give you a
> high degree of confidence in your program.
> And it is a good idea to do it.
> When you come to run your program "for real", and you have to
> troubleshoot it (as in real life you probably will🙁), you will have
> eliminated simple bugs in your program, and can concentrate on the more
> likely sources of problems (e.g. misbehaving hardware).
>
Interesting - - - hopefully taken in the same vein as your second statement - -
I sorta sounds like programmers keep running around in the forest looking
for trees. (Grin!)

So how does one test software then?

Tia
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 6:09 PM Thomas Passin via Python-list
 wrote:
>
snip
>
> By now you have read many responses that basically say that you cannot
> prove that a given program has no errors, even apart from the hardware
> question.  Even if it could be done, the kind of specification that you
> would need would in itself be difficult to create, read, and understand,
> and would be subject to bugs itself.
>
> Something less ambitious than a full proof of correctness of an
> arbitrary program can sometimes be achieved.  The programming team for
> the Apollo moon mission developed a system which, if you would write
> your requirements in a certain way, could generate correct C code for them.
>
> You won't be doing that.
>
> Here I want to point out something else.  You say you are just getting
> into programming.  You are going to be making many mistakes and errors,
> and there will be many things about programming you won't understand
> until you get some good solid experience.  That's not anything to do
> with you personally, that's just how it will play out.
>
> So be prepared to learn from your mistakes and bugs.  They are how you
> learn the nuts and bolts of the business of programming.
>

I am fully expecting to make mistakes (grin!).
I have a couple trades tickets - - - I've done more than a touch of technical
learning so mistakes are not scary.

What is interesting about this is the absolute certainty that it is impossible
to program so that that program is provably correct.
Somehow - - - well - - to me that sounds that programming is illogical.

If I set up a set of mathematical problems (linked) I can prove that the
logic structure of my answer is correct.

That's what I'm looking to do with the programming.

(Is that different than the question(s) that I've asked - - - dunno.)

Stimulating interaction for sure (grin!).
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

A post with useful ideas - - - - thanks (it generates some questions!
interleaved)

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:35 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:11, Thomas Passin via Python-list
>  wrote:
> > This doesn't mean that no program can ever be proven to halt, nor that
> > no program can never be proven correct by formal means.  Will your
> > program be one of those?  The answer may never come ...
>
snip
> So is all hope lost? No. We learn from our mistakes, we add more
> layers. And ultimately, we test until we're reasonably confident, and
> then go with it, knowing that failures WILL happen. Your goal as a
> programmer isn't to prevent failure altogether - if it were, you would
> never be able to achieve anything. Your goal is to catch those
> failures before they cause major issues.
>
> 1. Catch the failure as you're typing in code. Done, fixed, that's
> what the Backspace key is for.
> 2. Catch the failure as you save. We have a lot of tools that can help
> you to spot bugs.

Tools like this for python please.

> 3. Catch the failure before you commit and push. Unit tests are great for 
> this.

Where might I find such please.

> 4. Catch the failure collaboratively. Other developers can help. Or
> you can use automated tests that run on a bot farm, checking your code
> on a variety of different systems (see for example Python's
> buildbots).

This is very interesting - - - grin - - - almost looks like another rabbit hole
to climb into though.

> 5. Catch the failure in alpha. Release to a small number of willing
> users first. They get rewarded with cool new features before everyone
> else does, in return for having fewer guarantees.

For here its software for use here so I get to wear all the hats.

> 6. If all else fails, catch the failure before it kills someone.
> Design your system so that failures are contained. That's easier for
> some than others, but it's part of why I've been saying "system" here
> rather than "program".

This will not be an issue here - - - at least not yet. This is software for
collecting data to enhance management of things that aren't generally
managed in most like outfits. (Or they utilize the 800# gorillas in the
industries tools which are bloody pricey.)
>
> Eff up like it's your job.
> https://thedailywtf.com/articles/eff-up-like-it-s-your-job
>
Very interesting article - - - thanks!

TIA
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:43 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
>  wrote:
> > Consider an example of bit rot. I mean what if your CPU or hard disk has a 
> > location where you can write a byte and read it back multiple times and 
> > sometimes get the wrong result. To be really cautions, you might need your 
> > software to write something in multiple locations and when it reads it back 
> > in, check all of them and if most agree, ignore the one or two that don't 
> > while blocking that memory area off and moving your data elsewhere. Or 
> > consider a memory leak that happens rarely but if a program runs for years 
> > or decades, may end up causing an unanticipated error.
> >
>
> True, but there are FAR more efficient ways to do error correction :)
> Hamming codes give you single-bit correction and two-bit detection at
> a cost of log N bits, which is incredibly cheap - even if you were to
> go for a granularity of 64 bytes (one cache line in a modern Intel
> CPU), you would need just 11 bits of Hamming code for every 512 bits
> of data and you can guarantee to fix any single-bit error in any cache
> line. The "if most agree, ignore the one or two that don't" design
> implies that you're writing to an absolute minimum of three places,
> and in order to be able to ignore two that disagree, you'd probably
> need five copies of everything - that is to say, to store 512 bits of
> data, you would need 2560 bits of storage. But with a Hamming code,
> you need just 523 bits to store 512 reliably.
>
> Here's a great run-down on how efficiently this can be done, and how
> easily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8jsijhllIA
>
> Side note: If we assume that random bit flips occur at a rate of one
> every X storage bits, having redundant copies of data will increase
> the chances of a failure happening. For example, using a naive and
> horrendously wasteful "store 256 copies of everything" strategy, you
> would be 256 times more likely to have a random bitflip, which is
> insane :) You would also be able to guarantee detection of up to 128
> random bitflips. But as you can see, this puts a maximum on your
> storage ratio.
>

Hmm - - - - now how can I combine 'Hamming codes'
and a raid array?

TIA
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 9:36 PM AVI GROSS via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> Agreed, Chris. There are many methods way better than the sort of RAID
> architecture I supplied as AN EXAMPLE easy to understand. But even so, if a
> hard disk or memory chip is fried or a nuclear bomb takes out all servers in
> or near a city, you would need  some truly crazy architectures with info not
> only distributed across the globe but perhaps also to various space
> satellites or servers kept ever further out and eventually in hyperspace or
> within a black hole (might be write-only, alas).
>
> The point many of us keep saying is there can not easily or even with great
> difficult, any perfect scheme that guarantees nothing will go wrong with the
> software, hardware, the people using it and so on. And in the real world, as
> compared to the reel world, many programs cannot remain static. Picture a
> program that includes many tax laws and implementations that has to be
> changed at least yearly as laws change. Some near-perfect code now has to
> either be patched with lots of errors possible, or redesigned from scratch
> and if it takes long enough, will come out after yet more changes and thus
> be wrong.
>
> A decent question you can ask is if the language this forum is supposed to
> be on, is better in some ways to provide the kind of Teflon-coated code he
> wants. Are there features better avoided? How do you make sure updates to
> modules you use and trust are managed as they may break your code. Stuff
> like that is not as abstract.

The above are very interesting questions - - - - anyone care to tackle
one, or some?
>
> In my view, one consideration can be that when people can examine your
> source code in the original language, that can open up ways others might
> find ways to break it, more so than a compiled program that you only can
> read in a more opaque way.
>
(Tongue in cheek) Except doesn't one make more  when software in
hidden in an unreadable state? (That forces the user to go back to the
original dev or group - - yes?)

TIA
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:25 AM Chris Angelico via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:53, o1bigtenor  wrote:
> >
> > Hmm - - - - now how can I combine 'Hamming codes'
> > and a raid array?
> >
> > TIA
>
> Normally you wouldn't. But let's say you're worried that a file might
> get randomly damaged. (I don't think single-bit errors are really a
> significant issue with mass storage, as you'd be more likely to have
> an entire sector unreadable, but this can certainly happen in
> transmission.) What you do is take a set of data bits, add an error
> correction code, and send them on their way. The more data bits per
> block, the more efficient, but if there are too many errors you will
> lose data. So there's a tradeoff.
>
>
Thank you Mr Chris!
Cogent explanation that makes sense.
So - - - no change needed to my storage systems.
Great!

Regards
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24 AM Dieter Maurer  wrote:
>
> o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-24 07:22 -0500:
> > ...
> >Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
> >supposed to do even
> >before all the hardware has been assembled and installed and tested?
>
> Others have already noted that "verify" is a very strong aim.

I have worked in environments where everything was 100% tested. Errors
were either corrected or one's attendance was uninvited. Powerful impetus
to do a good job.
>
> There are different kinds of errors.
>
> Some can be avoided by using an integrated development environment
> (e.g. misspellings, type mismatches, ...).

Haven't heard of a python IDE - - - doesn't mean that there isn't such - -
just that I haven't heard of such. Is there a python IDE?
>
> Some can be found via tests.
> Look at Python's "unittest" package for learn how to write tests.
> "unittest.mock" can help you to mockup hardware you do not yet have.

Thanks - - -more to look into.

Regards
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:20 AM Chris Angelico via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:46, o1bigtenor  wrote:
> > > 2. Catch the failure as you save. We have a lot of tools that can help
> > > you to spot bugs.
> >
> > Tools like this for python please.
>
> Various ones. Type checkers like MyPy fall into this category if you
> set your system up to run them when you save. Some editors do basic
> syntax checks too.

I have been using geany as a plain text editor for some time. Searching for
suggestions for error checking in python I find listed Pylint,
Pyflakes and Pycodestyle.

Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!)
>
> > > 3. Catch the failure before you commit and push. Unit tests are great for 
> > > this.
> >
> > Where might I find such please.
>
> The same tools, but run as a pre-commit hook.
>
> Any tool that can help you find bugs has the potential to be of value.
> It's all a question of how much time it saves with earlier detection
> of bugs versus how much it costs you in pacifying the tool. Some are
> better than others.
>
Any suggestions?

TIA
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer  wrote:
>
> o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
> >On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer  wrote:
> > ...
> >> There are different kinds of errors.
> >>
> >> Some can be avoided by using an integrated development environment
> >> (e.g. misspellings, type mismatches, ...).
> >
> >Haven't heard of a python IDE - - - doesn't mean that there isn't such - -
> >just that I haven't heard of such. Is there a python IDE?
>
> There are several.
>
> Python comes with "IDLE".
>
Interesting - - - started looking into this.

> There are several others,
> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development.

Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE?
(Having a hard time finding linux related  information on the
website.)

> Search for other alternatices.

Will do.

Thanks for the assistance.
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:56 AM Dieter Maurer  wrote:
>
> o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 07:50 -0500:
> >> There are several others,
> >> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development.
> >
> >Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE?
>
> No.
> ==> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_(software)"

It would appear that something has changed.

Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512).
Expanded software to # opt .
There is absolutely NO mention of anything python - - - java, c and
its permutations,
'scientific computing', and some others but nothing python.

I may be missing something due to an extreme lack of knowledge.

Please advise as to where I might find the 'python' environment in eclipse.

TIA
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:10 AM Dieter Maurer  wrote:
>
> o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500:
> > ...
> >It would appear that something has changed.
> >
> >Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512).
> >Expanded software to # opt .
> >There is absolutely NO mention of anything python - - - java, c and
> >its permutations,
> >'scientific computing', and some others but nothing python.
> >
> >I may be missing something due to an extreme lack of knowledge.
> >
> >Please advise as to where I might find the 'python' environment in eclipse.
>
> I entered "eclipse python download" in my favorite search engine
> (=> "ecosia.org") and the second hit gave:
> "https://marketplace.eclipse.org/content/pydev-python-ide-eclipse";.

Using Duckduckgo I had tried eclipse + python  which I would have
thought should have spit out something useful - - - but that just took
me to the general page and the download - - - well it did NOT offer
any python anything!

Thank you for the tip!
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:19 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> > Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!)
> > Any suggestions?
>
> Seems to me you're trying to run before you have learned to walk.
>
> Slow down, go to the beginning and just learn python, write some code,
> see if it runs.  Go through the tutorial at
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html

Interesting - - - -  ". . . see if it runs." - - - that's the issue!
When the code is accessing sensors there isn't an easy way to
check that the code is working until one has done the all of the
physical construction. If I'm trying to control a pulsation system
using square waves with distinct needs for timing etc I hadn't
seen any way of 'stepping through the code' (phrase you use later).

>
> Your first and most basic tool is the python interpreter.  It will tell
> you when you try to run your code if you have syntax errors.  It's true
> that some errors the linters will catch won't show up as syntax errors,
> but cross the bridge when you get to it.  Once you have a basic grasp of
> Python syntax, you can begin using some of the tools Python has for
> organizing code: Functions and modules (eventually packages).
> Eventually when your logic is placed neatly into functions, you can then
> write other python programs that import those functions and feed
> different parameters to them and test that the output is what you
> expect. That is known as a test.
>
> Nothing wrong with geany as an editor.  However, you might find the
> Python Idle IDE useful (it usually installs with Python), as it lets you
> work more interactively with your code, inspecting and interacting with
> live python objects in memory.  It also integrates debugging
> functionality to let you step through your code one line at a time and
> watch variables and how they change.

I have been following this list for some time. Don't believe that I've ever
seen anything where anyone was referred to 'Idle'.  In reading other user
group threads I have heard lots about java and its ide - - - don't remember,
again, any re: an ide for python.
Even in maker threads - - - say for arduino - - its 'use this cut and
paste method
of programming' with no mention of any kind of ide when it was microPython - -
although being a subset of python it Idle may not work with it.
>
> When you encounter isses with your code (syntax or logical) that you
> can't solve, you can come to the list, show your code and the full
> output of the interpreter that shows the complete error message and back
> trace and I think you'll get a lot of helpful responses.
> --

That was the plan.

My problem is that I'm needing to move quite quickly from 'hello, world' to
something quite a bit more complex. Most of the instruction stuff I've run
into assumes that one is programming only for the joy of learning to
program where I've got things I want to do and - - - sadly - - - they're
not sorta like the run of the mill stuff.

Oh well - - - I am working on things!

Thanks for the ideas and the assistance!

Regards
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 11:58 AM Michael F. Stemper via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On 25/10/2023 05.45, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:35 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list
> >  wrote:
>
> >> 3. Catch the failure before you commit and push. Unit tests are great for 
> >> this.
> >
> > Where might I find such please.
>
> You don't "find" unit tests; you write them. A unit test tests
> a specific function or program.
>
> Ideally, you write each unit test *before* you write the function
> that it tests.
>
> For instance, suppose that you were writing a function to calculate
> the distance between two points. We know the following things about
> distance:
> 1. The distance from a point to itself is zero.
> 2. The distance between two distinct points is positive.
> 3. The distance from A to B is equal to the distance from B to A.
> 4. The distance from A to B plus the distance from B to C is at
> least as large as the distance from A to C.
>
> You would write unit tests that generate random points and apply
> your distance function to them, checking that each of these
> conditions is satisfied. You'd also write a few tests of hard-coded
> points,such as:
> - Distance from (0,0) to (0,y) is y
> - Distance from (0,0) to (x,0) is x
> - Distance from (0,0) to (3,4) is 5
> - Distance from (0,0) to (12,5) is 13
>
> The python ecosystem provides many tools to simplify writing and
> running unit tests. Somebody has already mentioned "unittest". I
> use this one all of the time. There are also "doctest", "nose",
> "tox", and "py.test" (none of which I've used).
>

Very useful information - - - thanks!
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:56 PM Jim Schwartz  wrote:

> Does this link help?  It seems to have a Linux package here.
>
> Eclipse Packages | The Eclipse Foundation - home to a global community,
> the Eclipse IDE, Jakarta EE and over 350 open source projects...
> 
> eclipse.org 
> [image: favicon.ico] 
> 
>
> I was looking at this page and absoulutely couldn't find anything python
related.
A previous poster (between my ask and this) pointed out a better location.

Thanks for the assistance.
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:43 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On 10/26/23 06:34, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > Interesting - - - -  ". . . see if it runs." - - - that's the issue!
> > When the code is accessing sensors there isn't an easy way to
> > check that the code is working until one has done the all of the
> > physical construction. If I'm trying to control a pulsation system
> > using square waves with distinct needs for timing etc I hadn't
> > seen any way of 'stepping through the code' (phrase you use later).
>
> Having dabbled in embedded electronics, all I can say is you will just
> have to build it and try to get it working.  Failure is always an
> option.  If I understand you correctly, this is for a hobby interest, so
> go at it and have fun.
>
> Stepping through code is a basic part of debugging in any language.
> They all have tools for it. Google for python debugging.
>
> "distinct needs for timing?"  Did you forget to tell us you need to use
> MicroPython?  Certainly MicroPython running on a microcontroller with
> help from hardware timers certainly can do it, but this mailing list is
> not the place to ask about it.  Instead you'll have to visit a forum on
> MicroPython or CircuitPython.  By the way you definitely can step
> through MicroPython code one line at a time with a remote debugger, say
> with Visual Studio Code.

Its one of the reasons to use micropython - - - it is a subset of python.
I didn't think I was asking about micropython here though. The project with
the square wave stuff has lots going on so its more likely that regular python
will be used. Part of the challenge is trying to figure out if I need to be
running a real time kernel or even a real time OS. Independent information
is quite hard to find - - - seems like most of the information is by someone
with skin in the game and then without a background its hard to figure out
if what they're saying tells enough so that I can make a good decision or
not.
>
> > I have been following this list for some time. Don't believe that I've ever
> > seen anything where anyone was referred to 'Idle'.  In reading other user
> > group threads I have heard lots about java and its ide - - - don't remember,
> > again, any re: an ide for python.
>
> Idle has been mentioned on several occasions, but probably more on the
> python-tutor list.  I find it hard to believe that searching for Python
> IDEs really came up blank.  There are even IDEs for MicroPython and
> embedded devices.  I found a nice list with a quick search.

I didn't say that I had done any searching for a python ide. I have only
spent time looking for information on coding. There's lots on make a led
blink and other simple stuff but when you want to get at least a couple
orders more complicated - - - there is precious little and that's what I've
been looking for (and finding any stuff very hard to find!).
>
> > Even in maker threads - - - say for arduino - - its 'use this cut and
> > paste method
> > of programming' with no mention of any kind of ide when it was microPython 
> > - -
> > although being a subset of python it Idle may not work with it.
>
> You keep dropping little details that, had you included them in the
> first post, would have helped avoid a lot of answers that ultimately
> aren't going to be useful to you.  Are you working MicroPython or with
> regular Python on a PC?  That makes a big difference in where you go to
> get help and what kind of help we can provide here.
>
I didn't even really know how to ask the question(s). Likely I could have asked
better but until I got some of the answers did it make sense for me to add
further. I did not want an answer for one 'problem'. I was more looking for a
way of doing things (which is quite different).

> > Oh well - - - I am working on things!
>
> That is good.  I wish you success.
>
Thank you.

I'll likely be back with more questions (grin!).

(Lost a great mentor some almost 4 years ago now so its a lot more flail
around than if my buddy were still available.)

Thanking you for your ideas and tips!
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Re: Question(s)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:47 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On 10/26/23 10:41, Michael Torrie wrote:
> > By the way you definitely can step
> > through MicroPython code one line at a time with a remote debugger, say
> > with Visual Studio Code.
>
> I meant to edit that bit out.   After doing a bit more research, it
> appears remote debugging with MicroPython may not be possible or easy.
> But the MicroPython lists and forums will know more about that than I
> do.  But there are some nice IDEs for developing code in MicroPython and
> deploying it to devices.
> --
Even here - - - I now have a first step and a direction!

Thanks
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Re: Running issues

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 4:40 PM shannon makasale via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> Hi there,
> My name is Shannon. I installed Python 3.12 on my laptop a couple months
> ago, but realised my school requires me to use 3.11.1.
>
> I uninstalled 3.12 and installed 3.11.1.
>
> Unfortunately, I am unable to run python now. It keeps asking to be
> modified, repaired or uninstalled.
>
> Do you have any suggestions on how to fix this?
>

Sorry - - - but you just haven't given enough information so that you can
be helped.

What OS are you using?

How did you install python 3.12?

How did you un-install it?

How did you install python3.11.1?

With answers to all of the questions - - - it would be much easier to
answer you?


HTH
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Re: SOLVED! Re: Weird Stuff (Markdown, syntax highlighting and Python)

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 9:48 PM Gilmeh Serda via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

>
> Solved by using a different method.
>
>
- - - And that was how?

TIA
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Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

Greetings

Looking at ESP8266 and wanting to program it using micropython (really
don't want to have to learn C++ (not enough hours in the day as it is!!)).

One of the tools I need to be able to use is esptools - -  well in the
devuan world you need to run that on either Devaun 3 or 5 - - - its just
not available on devuan 4.

Tried installing all the tools I need using downloads and .deb installs but
then I need to have python3.12 and that's also not part of Devuan4.

Not versed enough to set up a good venv (if that's possible) so that I
could work in that specific venv and have my cake (and get to eat it too
(grin!).

Suggestions - - - ideas - - - please?

TIA
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 4:06 PM dn via Python-list 
wrote:

> On 4/08/24 08:17, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> > Greetings
> >
> > Looking at ESP8266 and wanting to program it using micropython (really
> > don't want to have to learn C++ (not enough hours in the day as it
> is!!)).
> >
> > One of the tools I need to be able to use is esptools - -  well in the
> > devuan world you need to run that on either Devaun 3 or 5 - - - its just
> > not available on devuan 4.
> >
> > Tried installing all the tools I need using downloads and .deb installs
> but
> > then I need to have python3.12 and that's also not part of Devuan4.
> >
> > Not versed enough to set up a good venv (if that's possible) so that I
> > could work in that specific venv and have my cake (and get to eat it too
> > (grin!).
> >
> > Suggestions - - - ideas - - - please?
>
> Sorry if this offends, but this is a list of short-cuts and reasons why
> they don't work (immediately).
>
>
> Have just come from a discussion about 'how to start a project'. Amongst
> the questions to ask are: "what resources do we have (or can add) to
> achieve?".
>

Fair question details interleaved - - -

>
> In this case, if Python-skill is a "personnel-resource" (and C++ a
> "constraint"), will question the ESP over Raspberry Pi (say)?
>

Well - - - RPi world technical specs is usable from -20 to 60 C (iirc on
the top number)
and for my project I absolutely need to have usability to at least -40 - -
could possibly do a bit less but -35 C is a hard requirement so the RPi
and Pico (which I would like to use) is out but ESP8266 runs in that -40 to
65 C
range.

>
> Why talking of Python 3.12 when the solution involves MicroPython?
>

Because one uses psytool on one computer to transfer a program to the
MicroPython system.  In fact there are a set of tools that need Python3.12
to be able to do this and therefore the question.

>
>
> Perhaps need to take a step back and look at 'options' - relate needs to
> resources, and evaluate the impact of each decision on later ones - as
> well as against your personal skills (modify objectives to limits, or
> accept that some learning/training will be necessary as pre-requisite to
> (being able to) attack the project).
>
> I have been investigating using a venv but am not finding clear directions
so
that I could set up Python3.12 inside (along with the other needed tools).
The
more I'm looking the less useful most of the information I'm finding is
becoming.
Therefore I thought I would go to the python gurus for information - - -
which I
have.

So please - - - how do I set up a venv so that I can install and run python
3.12
(and other needed programs related to 3.12) inside?

TIA
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 6:20 PM Cameron Simpson via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> On 03Aug2024 16:34, o1bigtenor  wrote:
> >So please - - - how do I set up a venv so that I can install and run
> >python
> >3.12
> >(and other needed programs related to 3.12) inside?
>
> Maybe this github comment will help with this:
>
> https://github.com/orgs/micropython/discussions/10255#discussioncomment-671
>

Not really.

A computer that has psytool + about 5 or 6 other python 3.12 tools is
needed to load
the microcontroller so I don't see how having venv in the microcontroller
would help the
loading of software onto the microcontroller.

Regards
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 7:11 PM dn via Python-list 
wrote:

> On 4/08/24 09:34, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 4:06 PM dn via Python-list <
> python-list@python.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/08/24 08:17, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> >>> Greetings
> >>>
> >>> Looking at ESP8266 and wanting to program it using micropython (really
> >>> don't want to have to learn C++ (not enough hours in the day as it
> >> is!!)).
> >>>
> >>> One of the tools I need to be able to use is esptools - -  well in the
> >>> devuan world you need to run that on either Devaun 3 or 5 - - - its
> just
> >>> not available on devuan 4.
> >>>
> >>> Tried installing all the tools I need using downloads and .deb installs
> >> but
> >>> then I need to have python3.12 and that's also not part of Devuan4.
> >>>
> >>> Not versed enough to set up a good venv (if that's possible) so that I
> >>> could work in that specific venv and have my cake (and get to eat it
> too
> >>> (grin!).
> >>>
> >>> Suggestions - - - ideas - - - please?
> >>
> >> Sorry if this offends, but this is a list of short-cuts and reasons why
> >> they don't work (immediately).
> >>
> >>
> >> Have just come from a discussion about 'how to start a project'. Amongst
> >> the questions to ask are: "what resources do we have (or can add) to
> >> achieve?".
> >>
> >
> > Fair question details interleaved - - -
> >
> >>
> >> In this case, if Python-skill is a "personnel-resource" (and C++ a
> >> "constraint"), will question the ESP over Raspberry Pi (say)?
> >>
> >
> > Well - - - RPi world technical specs is usable from -20 to 60 C (iirc on
> > the top number)
> > and for my project I absolutely need to have usability to at least -40 -
> -
> > could possibly do a bit less but -35 C is a hard requirement so the RPi
> > and Pico (which I would like to use) is out but ESP8266 runs in that -40
> to
> > 65 C
> > range.
>
> Interesting, but creates a mis-match of tools - battles for you to fight...
>

Not really - - - it takes a computer with psytool and about 5 or 6 other
python3.12
programs to load the microcontroller.
It is in writing the program for the microcontroller that micropython is
used not at
all in the loading.

>
>
> >> Why talking of Python 3.12 when the solution involves MicroPython?
> >>
> >
> > Because one uses psytool on one computer to transfer a program to the
> > MicroPython system.  In fact there are a set of tools that need
> Python3.12
> > to be able to do this and therefore the question.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Perhaps need to take a step back and look at 'options' - relate needs to
> >> resources, and evaluate the impact of each decision on later ones - as
> >> well as against your personal skills (modify objectives to limits, or
> >> accept that some learning/training will be necessary as pre-requisite to
> >> (being able to) attack the project).
> >>
> >> I have been investigating using a venv but am not finding clear
> directions
> > so
> > that I could set up Python3.12 inside (along with the other needed
> tools).
> > The
> > more I'm looking the less useful most of the information I'm finding is
> > becoming.
> > Therefore I thought I would go to the python gurus for information - - -
> > which I
> > have.
> >
> > So please - - - how do I set up a venv so that I can install and run
> python
> > 3.12
> > (and other needed programs related to 3.12) inside?
>
> If you mean venv itself, which "directions" have you reviewed?
> This one (https://python.land/virtual-environments/virtualenv) seems
> very straight-forward and shows "What's inside a venv?" to include
> python.exe. Given that venv is more-or-less the official/traditional
> solution, what are you doing differently - perhaps the question is
> lacking detail.
>
> Interesting - - - that's the doc I have been reading.

My question was, is and will be (and the doc absolutely doesn't cover it)
how do I install a different version in the venv so that python 3.11.x on
the
system is not discombobulated by the python 3.12.x in the venv.
That python 3.12 would let me run the tools needed.
(Its the how to install the next version of python that I just haven't been
able to find information on - - - and I would be looking for information
on how to install on a *nix.)


> Personally, I'm using Poetry (https://python-poetry.org) which seemed
> just as easy to pick-up; plus pyenv to maintain multiple versions of
> Python on one machine.
>
>
Will give python-poetry a look.

Have been looking at pyenv but that seems to be a whole rat's nest of other
stuff to install and its using a bunch of different tools to get there - -
- is it
necessary - - - yes or no (in the running of multiple python versions on
the
same machine).

Regards
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 4:24 AM Peter J. Holzer via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> On 2024-08-03 15:17:11 -0500, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> > One of the tools I need to be able to use is esptools - -  well in the
> > devuan world you need to run that on either Devaun 3 or 5 - - - its just
> > not available on devuan 4.
>
> Couldn't you just upgrade to Devuan 5, then?
>

I like uptime and not measured in hours either so I'm presently not running
Devuan 5
or testing - - - although I used to. Just found that I didn't need the most
recent versions
of most of the tools I was using so find the stability (except for the
bloody browsers)
in stable version is to be appreciated.

>
>
> > Tried installing all the tools I need using downloads and .deb installs
> but
> > then I need to have python3.12 and that's also not part of Devuan4.
>
> It seems weird that something would work with the (presumably) older
> version of Python in Devuan 3 and the (presumably) newer version of
> Python in Devuan 5, but not with the version in Devuan 4.
>

Well - - - pstool was available in a version that worked in Devuan 3,
psytool is available in a version that works in Devuan 4 - - - beyond my
pay
grade as to why there isn't a version available for Devuan 4.

>
>
> > Not versed enough to set up a good venv (if that's possible) so that I
> > could work in that specific venv and have my cake (and get to eat it too
> > (grin!).
>
> You need to install Python first to create a venv. AFAIK there is no way
> to set up a venv first and then install Python into it.
>
> Does Devuan have a testing or unstable suite? You might be able to
> install a newer Python version from that. If not your best bet is to
> install Python from source.
>
>
First question answered earlier.
If I installed python 3.12 from source I would create a hung system for
myself.
(Been there and done that - - - got the T-shirt and it still stinks!)

Regards
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 8:49 AM Mats Wichmann via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> On 8/3/24 20:03, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
>
> > My question was, is and will be (and the doc absolutely doesn't cover it)
> > how do I install a different version in the venv so that python 3.11.x on
> > the
> > system is not discombobulated by the python 3.12.x in the venv.
> > That python 3.12 would let me run the tools needed.
> > (Its the how to install the next version of python that I just haven't
> been
> > able to find information on - - - and I would be looking for information
> > on how to install on a *nix.)
>
> To get a different Python "in" the venv, you use the version you want in
> the construction of the venv. For example:
>
>
> $ python3.13 -m venv new_venv
> $ new_venv/bin/python --version
> Python 3.13.0b4
> $ source new_venv/bin/activate
>
>
 "https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/ PEP 668, which prevents pip from
interacting with the OS installed python. This change has been done in red
hat and other distros too . . . "

similarly your first command produces and error code for the same reason.

Sorry - - - not my policy - - -

Regards
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

Matt - if you would rather that you were not included in the address list -
-
please advise.

On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 8:51 AM Mats Wichmann  wrote:

> On 8/5/24 06:48, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 8:49 AM Mats Wichmann via Python-list <
> > python-list@python.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 8/3/24 20:03, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> >>
> >>> My question was, is and will be (and the doc absolutely doesn't cover
> it)
> >>> how do I install a different version in the venv so that python 3.11.x
> on
> >>> the
> >>> system is not discombobulated by the python 3.12.x in the venv.
> >>> That python 3.12 would let me run the tools needed.
> >>> (Its the how to install the next version of python that I just haven't
> >> been
> >>> able to find information on - - - and I would be looking for
> information
> >>> on how to install on a *nix.)
> >>
> >> To get a different Python "in" the venv, you use the version you want in
> >> the construction of the venv. For example:
> >>
> >>
> >> $ python3.13 -m venv new_venv
> >> $ new_venv/bin/python --version
> >> Python 3.13.0b4
> >> $ source new_venv/bin/activate
> >>
> >>
> >   "https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/ PEP 668, which prevents pip from
> > interacting with the OS installed python. This change has been done in
> red
> > hat and other distros too . . . "
> >
> > similarly your first command produces and error code for the same reason.
> >
> > Sorry - - - not my policy - - -
>
> What? Yes, the *system* pip should have some restrictions, if it's a
> system mainly managed by a package manager.
>
> Setting up a venv is the *expected* approach to such situations, and
> creating one doesn't cause any problems. You end up with a pip in the
> activated venv that's going to install to a different path (the one in
> the venv), and will not be marked as externally managed, as the package
> manager has no control over that path.
>
> That's the whole point.  What error are you getting?  The venv module is
> not the pip module so restrictions on the system pip have nothing to do
> with it.
>
> set up pyenv
activated a venv
trying to install python3.12 into it

1. download of python3.12 (blahblahblahetc).deb will not install
2. download of python3.12.tar.xz similarly will not install

(venv2) memyself@devuanbigbox:~$ pip install
/home/memyself/Downloads/Python-3.12.4.tar.xz
Processing ./Downloads/Python-3.12.4.tar.xz
ERROR: file:///home/memyself/Downloads/Python-3.12.4.tar.xz does not appear
to be a Python project: neither 'setup.py' nor 'pyproject.toml' found.

seems that I need a different version (installable as it were) of
python3.12
or my approach is all wrong!

Please advise

TIA
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:55 PM Bill Deegan 
wrote:

> Your approach is wrong.
> You don't build python from source using pip.
>
> You don't install new versions of python into a venv either.
>
> Have you read the following?
> https://docs.micropython.org/en/latest/esp8266/tutorial/intro.html
>
> That seems to have instructions for what you want to do..
>

See item 1.4 - - - - that's where I'm at (and that's where the problems
are hidden at as well!)

Regards
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:56 PM Mats Wichmann  wrote:

>
> > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 8:51 AM Mats Wichmann  > <mailto:m...@wichmann.us>> wrote:
> >
> >     On 8/5/24 06:48, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> >  > On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 8:49 AM Mats Wichmann via Python-list <
> >  > python-list@python.org <mailto:python-list@python.org>> wrote:
> >  >
> >  >> On 8/3/24 20:03, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> >  >>
> >  >>> My question was, is and will be (and the doc absolutely doesn't
> > cover it)
> >  >>> how do I install a different version in the venv so that python
> > 3.11.x on
> >  >>> the
> >  >>> system is not discombobulated by the python 3.12.x in the venv.
> >  >>> That python 3.12 would let me run the tools needed.
> >  >>> (Its the how to install the next version of python that I just
> > haven't
> >  >> been
> >  >>> able to find information on - - - and I would be looking for
> > information
> >  >>> on how to install on a *nix.)
> >  >>
> >  >> To get a different Python "in" the venv, you use the version you
> > want in
> >  >> the construction of the venv. For example:
> >  >>
> >  >>
> >  >> $ python3.13 -m venv new_venv
> >  >> $ new_venv/bin/python --version
> >  >> Python 3.13.0b4
> >  >> $ source new_venv/bin/activate
> >  >>
> >  >>
> >  >   "https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/
> > <https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/> PEP 668, which prevents pip from
> >  > interacting with the OS installed python. This change has been
> > done in red
> >  > hat and other distros too . . . "
> >  >
> >  > similarly your first command produces and error code for the same
> > reason.
> >  >
> >  > Sorry - - - not my policy - - -
> >
> > What? Yes, the *system* pip should have some restrictions, if it's a
> > system mainly managed by a package manager.
> >
> > Setting up a venv is the *expected* approach to such situations, and
> > creating one doesn't cause any problems. You end up with a pip in the
> > activated venv that's going to install to a different path (the one
> in
> > the venv), and will not be marked as externally managed, as the
> package
> > manager has no control over that path.
> >
> > That's the whole point.  What error are you getting?  The venv
> > module is
> > not the pip module so restrictions on the system pip have nothing to
> do
> > with it.
> >
> > set up pyenv
> > activated a venv
> > trying to install python3.12 into it
> >
> > 1. download of python3.12 (blahblahblahetc).deb will not install
> > 2. download of python3.12.tar.xz similarly will not install
> >
> > (venv2) memyself@devuanbigbox:~$ pip install
> > /home/memyself/Downloads/Python-3.12.4.tar.xz
> > Processing ./Downloads/Python-3.12.4.tar.xz
> > ERROR: file:///home/memyself/Downloads/Python-3.12.4.tar.xz does not
> > appear to be a Python project: neither 'setup.py' nor 'pyproject.toml'
> > found.
> >
> > seems that I need a different version (installable as it were) of
> > python3.12
> > or my approach is all wrong!
>
>
> you can't install Python "into" a venv.
>
> you use a version of Python as the base when *creating* a venv, the venv
> will use the same binary as the base python (symlinks if possible, as in
> the Linux case), but with different paths.
>
> Since you've already got pyenv, use it to build the version you want to
> use - I think you said there wasn't a deb for 3.12 in your distro?
>

correct


> That's something like
>
> pyenv install 3.12.4
>

$ pyenv install 3.12.4
bash: pyenv: command not found


>
> that will use the build recipe it has... and hopefully work.  Distro
> Pythons sometimes have some strange setups that are hard to reproduce.
> Pyenv knows how to build micropython, too, should it ever come to that.
>
> If you indeed found a deb for the right Python, use apt to install it,
> and then use *that* Python to create your venv.
>
> If you have the pyenv-virtualenv plugin, you can ask it to make the
> virtualenv for you, if pyenv built the Python
>
>
pyenv is not a 'global' package

there is a mountain of /root/.pyenv  files though
there is also quite a number of /root/.pyenv/plugins/pyenv-virtualenv/
files

when looking in the /root/.pyenv files I can find options for all the older
version of python
but none for anything newer than what is on my system

is there something else to install to achieve this 'version freedom' that
pyenv promises?

Regards
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Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:36 PM Bill Deegan 
wrote:

> why reply to me instead of to the list?
> It's generally considered bad form to do so.
>

Got it - - - except this list wants only reply all the next one wants only
reply and
keeping straight which is which isn't always happening. I did apologize and
asked
you to advise in the next one whether you even wanted to be included (which
you haven't
responded to).

>
>
> Do you have any python 3 installed on your system?
> Or python 2.7?
> If not, can you install such via system package?
>


 # dpkg -l | grep python*
ii  2to3   3.11.2-1
all  2to3 binary using python3
ii  idle-python3.113.11.2-6+deb12u2
all  IDE for Python (v3.11) using Tkinter
ii  ipython3   8.5.0-4
 all  Enhanced interactive Python 3 shell
ii  libboost-python1.74.0  1.74.0+ds1-21
 amd64Boost.Python Library
ii  libpython3-all-dev:amd64   3.11.2-1+b1
 amd64package depending on all supported Python 3
development packages
ii  libpython3-dev:amd64   3.11.2-1+b1
 amd64header files and a static library for Python
(default)
ii  libpython3-stdlib:amd643.11.2-1+b1
 amd64interactive high-level object-oriented language
(default python3 version)
rc  libpython3.10-minimal:amd643.10.9-1
amd64Minimal subset of the Python language (version
3.10)
ii  libpython3.11:amd643.11.2-6+deb12u2
amd64Shared Python runtime library (version 3.11)
ii  libpython3.11-dev:amd643.11.2-6+deb12u2
amd64Header files and a static library for Python
(v3.11)
ii  libpython3.11-minimal:amd643.11.2-6+deb12u2
amd64Minimal subset of the Python language (version
3.11)
ii  libpython3.11-stdlib:amd64 3.11.2-6+deb12u2
amd64Interactive high-level object-oriented language
(standard library, version 3.11)
ii  libpython3.11-testsuite3.11.2-6+deb12u2
all  Testsuite for the Python standard library (v3.11)
ii  libpython3.9-minimal:amd64 3.9.13-1
amd64Minimal subset of the Python language (version 3.9)
ii  libpython3.9-stdlib:amd64  3.9.13-1
amd64Interactive high-level object-oriented language
(standard library, version 3.9)
ii  python-apsw-doc3.40.0.0-2
all  documentation for python-apsw
ii  python-apt-common  2.6.0
 all  Python interface to libapt-pkg (locales)
ii  python-apt-common-devuan   2.5.3devuan2
all  Templates for aptitude
ii  python-attr-doc22.2.0-1
all  documentation for the attrs Python library
ii  python-babel-localedata2.10.3-1
all  tools for internationalizing Python applications -
locale data files
ii  python-cryptography-doc38.0.4-3
all  Python library exposing cryptographic recipes and
primitives (documentation)
ii  python-cycler-doc  0.11.0-1
all  composable kwarg iterator (documentation)
ii  python-gmpy2-common2.1.2-2
 all  common files for python3-gmpy2
ii  python-ipython-doc 8.5.0-4
 all  Enhanced interactive Python shell (documentation)
ii  python-markdown-doc3.4.1-2
 all  text-to-HTML conversion library/tool
(documentation)
ii  python-matplotlib-data 3.6.3-1
 all  Python based plotting system (data package)
ii  python-matplotlib-doc  3.5.2-4
 all  Python based plotting system (documentation
package)
ii  python-mpmath-doc  1.2.1-2
 all  library for arbitrary-precision floating-point
arithmetic - Documentation
ii  python-numpy-doc   1:1.23.5-2
all  NumPy documentation
ii  python-pexpect-doc 4.8.0-4
 all  Python module for automating interactive
applications (documentation)
ii  python-pil-doc 9.4.0-1.1+deb12u1
 all  Examples for the Python Imaging Library
ii  python-pygments-doc2.14.0+dfsg-1
 all  documentation for the Pygments
ii  python-scipy-doc

Re: Help needed - - running into issues with python and its tools

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:53 AM Bill Deegan 
wrote:

> I’m not looking through all the packages you have installed
>
> (Ctrl-F is your friend - - - )


> What version of python is installed on your system?
>
> There are actually 3 versions installed - - - which is why the whole list
was posted.
Your question was really not clear given the context.

Regards
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Re: troglodytes

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 9:06 PM Mike Dewhirst via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> On 14/08/2024 12:54 am, Michael Torrie via Python-list wrote:
> > On 8/13/24 3:24 AM, Robin Becker via Python-list wrote:
> >> I am clearly one of the troglodytes referred to in recent discussions
> around the PSF. I've been around in python land
> >> for far too long, my eyesight fails etc etc.
> >>
> >> I feel strongly that a miscarriage of justice has been made in the
> 3-month banning of a famous python developer from
> >> some areas of discourse.
> >>
> >> I have had my share of disagreements with others in the past and have
> been sometimes violent or disrespectful in emails.
> >>
> >> I might have been in the kill list of some, but never banned from any
> mailing lists.
> >>
> >> Honest dialogue is much better than imposed silence.
> >>
> >> -- grumblingly-yrs --
> >> Robin Becker
> > Agreed.  Here's a good summary of the issue:
> > https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim
> >
> > The PSF has really screwed this up.  Really embarrassing, frankly.  And
> > sad.
>
> I read Chris McDonough's defence of Tim Peters and he has convinced me.
> Not because of everything he said but because I have experience of
> committees. And other things.
>
> The problem is generational.
>
> Later generations can see the faults of earlier generations in brilliant
> hindsight. I certainly did.
>
> In my case, those earlier generations caused depressions and world wars.
> That was pretty bad wasn't it?
>
> Can I blame my ancestors for that? My great-grandparents were born in
> the second half of the 1800s; my grandparents in the late 1800s. They
> were undoubtedly responsible for WW1 and the great depression wouldn't
> you say?
>
> So my parents who grew up after WW1 and both fought in WW2 were forced
> to give the best years of their lives to the worst of times. Not their
> fault. In fact they were heroic to do all that and have me and my
> siblings starting in their mid-twenties.
>
> Here's the rub: they had serious faults and I could see them clearly -
> when I was in my twenties and having children of my own.
>
> I'll be 80 next year and I have a clearer perspective now.
>
> I now understand why the oldest known culture (60k+ years) survived
> intact for so long including the last few thousand years of trading
> between Australia and Asia and more recent centuries with Europe. It
> wasn't entirely due to isolation. In fact there were hundreds of
> separate nations and languages in Australia so no-one was all that
> isolated. They had traders and diplomats and warriors just like the rest
> of humanity.
>
> The difference isn't with them it is with us. We have lost what keeps
> them together. They respect their elders. We don't. They had to because
> their survival depended on lore and knowledge which was passed orally
> across generations.
>
> The real difference is the invention of the printing press and its
> successors right down to television and the internet.
>
> We no longer rely on our elders for knowledge.
>
> That has eroded respect.
>
> With each generation the erosion gets worse. When I was a child, my
> parents gave me a bike and a set of encyclopedia. They tested me on my
> knowledge and taught me other stuff too, which I can't remember now but
> I could look it up.
>
> Our children got bikes and encyclopedia too but they were growing up
> after Germaine Greer published "The Female Eunuch". They are Gen Xers.
> That means they became totally aware of female emancipation and the
> comcomitant male emancipation and other isms.
>
> Knowledge is a small part of life. You have heard "it's not what you
> know, it's who you know".
>
> Inherited wealth solves all problems for the wealthy because that
> inheritance includes every "who" who matters. For the rest of us getting
> on with people is what really matters. Without the right "who", survival
> is at risk. All the knowledge in the world is at our fingertips today
> and still our survival needs to be curated.
>
> So PSF Board members survival depends not on knowledge nor on having
> policies and codes of conduct but on the right "who".
>
> The survival of the Board and perhaps even the P language itself depends
> on elders.
>
> Elders have something which was well respected by earlier generations.
> That is lore which is steeped in experience. Leadership can be taught
> and learned. Experience has to be experienced. Young people almost by
> definition, don't have it. "Young" is obviously a relative term given
> one's perspective.
>
> Experience and respect for experience kept the oldest known culture on
> the planet functioning for a very long time. Even the advent of the web
> has not detracted from that respect.
>
> The PSF Board should reflect on their lack of respect for experience and
> try to retrieve any damage that lack of respect may have done to the
> very thing they were elected to look after.
>
> I'm old and I respect Tim

learning Python

[o1bigtenor via Python-list]

Greetings

There are mountains of books out there.

Any suggestions for documents for a just learning how to program and
starting with Python (3)?

Preference to a tool where I would be learning by doing - - - that
works well for me.

TIA
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