Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:32:09 -0500, l v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I think e-mail should be text only. I disagree. Your problem is spam, not HTML. Spam is associated with HTML and people have in Pavlovian fashion come to hate HTML. But HTML is not the problem! That is like hating all choirs because televangelists use them. HTML allows properly aligned table, diagrams, images, use of colour/fonts to encode speakers. emphasis, hyperlinks. I try to explain Java each day both on my website on the plaintext only newsgroups. It is so much easier to get my point across in HTML. Program listings are much more readable on my website. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:15:25 GMT, CBFalconer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > It also >interferes with the use of AsciiArt, second only in irritation to spam. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 17:57:13 -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gordon Burditt) wrote or quoted : >HTML enables a heck of a lot of problems: "web bugs" in email, >links to fake sites that appear as real ones in what shows up >on the screen, Javascript viruses, denial-of-service attacks >(pages that open two windows when you close one), etc. > >>That is like hating all choirs because televangelists use them. > >I liken it more to hating all viruses because some of them >install keyloggers. I take it then you avoid browsers or use Lynx? No you FIX the problems rather than wear a hair shirt. Same for email. Why should rich expressions only be permitted to those with websites. Some people use email PRIMARILY for sharing photos. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:38:49 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Yes it is. HTML means that after I've specified my email client use my >favourite font, in the size I like, people send me emails that over-ride >my choice. Invariably they use a font I don't even have. I would suggest then a better solution is to implement CSS in email, the way you do in browsers to deal with that same problem. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:38:49 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Even more invariably, they set the point size directly rather than in >relative terms, and they are on Windows, where point sizes are about 20% >oversized. that is like giving up Java because there was a bug in the Windows JVM. FIX THE BUG. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 17:57:13 -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gordon Burditt) wrote or quoted : > >HTML enables a heck of a lot of problems: "web bugs" in email, >links to fake sites that appear as real ones in what shows up >on the screen, Javascript viruses, denial-of-service attacks >(pages that open two windows when you close one), etc. Just how long do you want to stall evolution? Do you imagine people 200 years from now will be still be using pure ASCII text unable to find a solution to JavaScript viruses (turn off JS), pop-up( disable popups) etc.? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 17:41:38 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >If you've got a browser with a better solution, what's the browser, >and what's the solution? Try Opera. You can merge the two. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:03:05 +0200, Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >On one side you got control freaks who condemn everyone who dares send >an email with something other than what you've got your own email set up >to use. "You dare specify the font sized when I finally figured out that >10 is just right? Infidel!" This is one of the marvels of CSS once you get the hang of it. If you don't like bright red letters on green backgrounds, you can CHANGE that. You can change the fonts, sizes etc etc. You can if you want get something very like plain ASCII text. So from an aesthetic point of view, once people learn how it works, CSS lets sender and receiver compromise on what the message looks like. No other medium gives ANY control to the receiver about how a message is formatted. One of the most important changes in the ability to select special fonts for the those without prefect vision and larger fonts. There is also the philosophical question. When my nephew sends me a message, do I have a right to warp his intent even if I don't like the aesthetics? That is part of his message. Should my email reader fix the spelling mistakes in the emails sent me by angry US soldiers? Or is that part of the message? There are three different issues getting muddled together: 1. avoiding spam 2. making mail from well meaning but inept friends more readable. 3. what constitutes a good general style for general correspondence. How should you use rich text appropriately. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 23:33:13 GMT, Rich Teer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >WHat the hell has that got to do with HTML email? Sending photos >is an example of what attachments are for. Normally you send photos to grandma with captions under each photo. That is far more convenient for the technopeasant receiver than dealing with multiple attachments. People keep thinking of email as a techie preserve. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On 8 Oct 2005 23:39:27 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Yeah, yeah, and 640K is enough for everybody. Same song, different tune. For how long. Surely attachments are a stop gap. Can you imagine people sharing images that way 100 years from now? Why should we wait for the future? The problems blocking easy to use photo sharing are not technological but social. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 04:44:25 -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gordon Burditt) wrote or quoted : >And how do you fix the problem of unsolicited USENET articles? >(*ALL* of them are unsolicited to someone). Or unsolicited >email? Read my essay. http://mindprod.com/projects.html/mailreadernewsreader.html I talk around those problems. It requires a fresh start. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:56:50 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Show us *examples*! Do you create a style sheet for every site you >visit that overrides there classes? What? Why don't you download a copy of Opera, see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/opera.html Then try out the feature. Click View | style | user -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 23:35:40 GMT, Rich Teer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >If people want me to read their email, they should send it to me >in an open, universal format, which for email is plain text. It's >as simple as that. This is pulling a King Canute. There is not even a mechanism in email protocols to warn your correspondents of your demand. I have been bugging Eudora for years for at least a bit in the address book to record the recipient's preference for plain or formatted emails. They have so far ignored me. There is nothing wrong with formatted text. You are confusing formatted text with spam. You think you hated formatted text, but you really hate spam. If your lover sent you a message with photo, and even musical accompaniment, I doubt you would feel offended. It is the CONTENT bugging you, not the HTML. You imagine that the two are inexplicably linked. That is just because the technology is immature. There is no fundamental reason that formatted spam should have an easier time penetrating your defenses than plain text spam. I am using Spamnix. It think it leaks about 50/50 formatted and plain text spam. Eudora warns you of deceptive links in HTML. There are many more such things that have yet to be done to deal with malicious emails. I think we should focus on those rather than reverting to the days of the TTY.I don't think it would buy you much. Formatted emails can't hurt you if you don't allow them to automatically run any code. It is unfair to blame formatting for the foolish practice off allowing untrusted code to run without even an ok. They have nothing to do with each other. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On 08 Oct 2005 18:59:39 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >I read mail over an ssh connection to a Unix shell. I have no easy >way to read html email with a graphics browser. So the rest of the world should forgo rich communication because of your obsolete software? How could anything every evolve with that attitude? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:14:32 GMT, Roel Schroeven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >His reply wasn't exactly clear, but I that he means that wen you use HTM >mail, you don't have to attach the photo with the email. You can also >use the HTML to refer to an image somewhere on a webserver. There is that and also the use of HTML formatting, embedded images, captioning, rows, borders to make the message look more like a page from a photo album. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:54:32 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Only if your photos are so obscure and confusing that they need captions. That is a hair shirt approach. What if someone is sending photos of their new house? What if I am sending diagrams to help someone repair their computer? It is ridiculous to tie people's arms behind their backs. What you do instead is work to prevent abuse. Captions in and of themselves are not dangerous things. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:40:34 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Yes. It is called "eyes". I look at the image, and miracle upon miracles, >I recognise Johnny wearing a hat. Even for a limited application like children's birthday parties captions could say things like: Johnny with this friend Pete, the one I told you about who has leukemia Here is Johnny opening your present, the sweater you knitted him. If you want to communicate with text and with pictures obviously there are times when you want to communicate with both text and pictures. Imagine a main sending emailed floor tile samples to his wife on a business trip for her final veto and not being allowed to caption them. The point I can't pound enough is that rich text and pictures with captions are not INHERENTLY dangerous or spam. (Note that the most common spam is the Nigerian con and variants which comes as a non-formatted message.) Many have mentally linked rich text with danger and spam because of Microsoft's incompetent email software. The solution is to fix the software not block everyone from communicating with rich text and pictures. You don't have to use Outlook. see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/email.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:16:57 GMT, Rich Teer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >And even more convenient is "Hey grandma, check out the latest >photos on my web site: www.example.com/rich/photos". that is what my sister does. And there is now a service that will do that See http://storymill.com/tidepool/ I find it amusing that people who complain about me giving links in my posts rather that expounding inline are willing to insist others do their emails via links where you need to fire up a separate browser to see the images. The other problem is maintaining a website is probably a skillset Grandma is not willing to acquire. Even image inserting into emails is pushing it. Further the website is yet an additional monthly expense that could be avoided by using HTML in emails. You might say what about those free 10 mb websites? That's not very many images with today's megapixel digital cameras. I think we computer folk owe the public an email system that works and that is easy to use. It should at LEAST work better than the snail mail system. The essential problem is it was designed overnight as a proof of concept and has not been designed to deal with the problem of spam or tracking conversational threads. Enclosures were a kludge. Mail should be 8-bit binary transport with a system something like the US post uses for large parcels. They don't show up directly in your in mail box. You have to ok their delivery. The biggest disincentive to spam would be to make sender pay a fee to the receiver or to backbone maintenance. For most people it would all balance out. Spammers would have to become more selective in their targets. If they were sufficiently selective, they would not be a nuisance. They could even be helpful sometimes. I wrote an essay years ago on how such an email system might work. At this point I think the most likely evolution is via Instant messaging acquiring all the abilities of regular email. Instant mail interfaces were designed to be computer friendly and extendable, so even though there are a great many of them, people have written software that can interface to many of them such as Trillian or Jabber. see http://mindprod.com/projects/mailreadernewsreader.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 05:55:01 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Virus writers will love the ability to >change peoples address books remotely. Since this is just a broad brush view, I find it odd you can predict just what bugs there will be in the early implementations. You sound almost as if you were the author of the current system and feel personally attacked by others looking for ways to improve it. In my scheme, every message is digitally signed, even a change of address message. Surely for a virus to send out a digitally signed change of address message is more difficult than sending out an unsigned one, which they can do today. You have two problems you want to avoid: 1. the practical problem: failure to inform your correspondents, not just your address list, of your new address (at least the ones you don't consider spam or pests). 2. the potential problem: rogue software sending out fake change of address notices. In my scheme, The receiver of the change of address message ignores it unless it is properly signed. Surely that is a more secure system than we have today and that handles (1) without effort. At worst, a very clever virus could change the one address book entry, the one for this computer, in other's machines. It could not generally corrupt other machines. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:44:42 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >``Like ICQ, someone cannot send you mail without your prior permission. > They can't send you mail because they don't have your public key to > encrypt the mail.'' > >...is pretty confusing - because "public key" is a term with a technical >meaning in cryptography - and a public key really *is* public. What I envisioned was you would give a "public" key to someone you wanted to converse with you. He would encrypt all mail with that. He could give that key to someone else, who could then impersonate him. Most likely that second person would be his laptop. Let's say he posted the key in the New York Times, then anyone could impersonate him. You would the deactivate him, just as if he were a spammer. You might or might not give him a new key when he begged for permission to communicate. In my opinion, the weakest link in my scheme is the initial beg for permission to send. Here a stranger has to, in one line, tell you who he is and why he wants to talk to you. This is much like a spam title that tries to trick you into reading the body of the message. You still need spam list to help filter these types out. My scheme should work fine if you are not someone like me who gets a lot of legit mail from strangers. Perhaps you could slow them down with some randomly chosen questions to prove they know something about you. Companies could do the same thing. You can inconvenience the sender to a fair degree since most people don't often write strangers with the expectation of a personal correspondence. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 05:55:01 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Actually, you present a design that forces a solution that makes them >do what you want down their throats, never mind what they want, or >what they've been doing. It shows an amazing ignorance about the >internet and how people behave on it. Like most antispam proposals, it >won't actually stop spam, just force spammers to concentrate on >different channels. You seem to have randomly broken quoting for >people who download mail and read it offline, and for any medium >that's unreliable or doesn't reliably deliver messages "in order" - >which includes mail and news. Virus writers will love the ability to >change peoples address books remotely. The problem of differing >character sets is technically solved. Practically, the solution >doesn't work because people implementing the software ignore the >standards. What's your server going to do when it gets messages with >characters in them that aren't valid in the charset that it's declared >as being? Better yet, what's it going to do when the characters are >valid, but the declared charset isn't the one the author actually >used? You implementation sketch only covers the client talking to the >first server (in that it requires the client to encrypt a challange >phrase with the private key belonging the email id, which is >presumably what 2822 uses for the envelope sender). Most mail on the >internet goes through at least two servers, and news is much >worse. For instance, your messages apparently passed through 10 >servers getting to me. You really have to deal with store and forward, >or convince a large number of corporations that potentially hostile >users should be allowed to talk directly to their mail servers, which >isn't very likely. Kudos for recognizing that spam needs to be dealt >with by people with guns, but you lose half of them for making ISPS >liable for it. > >I also read the comment about wanting an automated "Ask them to run my >browser in my favorite configuration", which is equally naive. A lot >of sites have such cruft on them already. I find them funny - I surf >the web on three different platforms, none of them Windows. Any >pointer to download a new browser or plugin for Windows just impresses >me with the authors lack of skills. The only browser I know of that >runs on all three platforms is Opera, and it's something radically >different on one of the three. Even should you get the platform right, >almost nobody is going to bother upgrading following the download >links. The very small percentage of users who are real geeks will >silently thank you for the notice, and update their software. Most >users will ignore it so long as the page isn't obviously broken. For >those for whom it's broken, all but small percentage will simply find >some other site to visit. I'd suggest that anyone thinking about writing Your post brings up a meta-issue. How long should posts be? I note several schools of thought. There is the initial post, sort of a mini lecture on something covering perhaps 7 major points. Then you can have the theatre-critic style response where each person in turn goes through the 7 points saying when they think. Then they repeat the 7 points each commenting on what each of the others had to say on the seven points. etc. Then there is the conversational style where you discuss one major point at a time, perhaps with several threads, one for each point. These threads meander or split off themselves. My preference is to think of a post, other than perhaps the initial essay post, as like a paragraph. It should stick to one main idea. Seems to me google will have an easier time classifying posts if they don't cover too much ground. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:07:42 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >HTML is a problem on *other* peoples crappy software as well. It >wasn't designed to carry code content, but has been hacked up to do >that. It seems to me it goes without saying that you cannot trust code from strangers, especially anonymous strangers. You simply don't run code sent in email except from highly trusted individuals. If you do, that is YOUR fault for being such a silly ass not the mail system's ability to deliver code. It is as stupid as running code that came as an attachment. One of the ideas I play with in my essay is that you could insist your correspondents have digital id certificate signed by Thawte or other CA attesting to their identity, thus giving you legal recourse against them if they send you spam, Trojans etc. This would slow them down with requests for permission to send. they could send only one per certificate. The cost and hassle of getting the certificate could deter tem, and uniquely identify them for blocking and public black lists. . -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:27:30 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote or quoted : >> This would slow them down with requests for permission to send. they >> could send only one per certificate. The cost and hassle of getting >> the certificate could deter tem, and uniquely identify them for >> blocking and public black lists. > >Plus being a total pain for legitimate correspondents and also expensive. First understand that you only have to get permission to send once. That carries on until revoked. Permission gives me an encryption key and permission to send mail to you. Also I envision by the time this comes into being most people will be 24-7 attached. So let's say I decide to send an email to Donald Knuth. I compose my one line introduction. I compose my email and walk away. Without further hassle on my part, either my mail will be delivered, or will be rejected or it will sit in limbo until Dr. Knuth gets time to decide. If he rejects my plea, my mail will never arrive at his site. Presumably Dr. Knuth would configure his software to accept only pleas from people with digital ids, and further to accept at most one plea from them and to remember his no for at least a year. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:45:03 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Jeff Poskanzer, now *he* has a spam problem. He gets a few million >spams a day: http://www.acme.com/mail_filtering/ >. It is a bit like termites. If we don't do something drastic to deal with spam, the ruddy things will eventually make the entire Internet unusable. the three keys to me are: 1. flipping to a digital id based email system so that the sender of any piece of mail can be legally identified and prosecuted. If every piece of anonymous email disappeared that would go a long way to clearing up spam. Let those sending ransom notes, death threats and hate mail use snail mail. As a second best, correspondents are identified by permission/identity/encryption keys given to them by their recipients. 2. flipping to a sender pays system so that the Internet does not subsidise spam. 3. Mail is not transported without prior permission. The receiver can turn that permission on and off any time he chooses. This is basically an automated version of what Zaep does where the sender is not consciously aware of the permission-getting step. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On 12 Oct 2005 01:43:32 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >> So let's say I decide to send an email to Donald Knuth. > >:-) I did write him, snail mail, and he responded giving us permission to rewrite any of the algorithms in his famous set of books in to Java. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On 09 Oct 2005 14:06:20 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >That's the worst of all. I certainly don't want my mail reader >opening network connections to arbitrary places when I read my mail. >I have no willingness at all to reveal my mail reading habits or IP >address to everyone who sends me email. Obviously you can't trust anything code-like that arrives from strangers. It is an extension of the law Mommy laid down not to take candy from strangers. However, formatted text is not code. Pictures are not code. It is unfair to tar them with the brush of JavaScript or the goofy things Outlook does with enclosures. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:53:52 +0200, "Dr.Ruud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Don't think that that is true for everybody. For example not for people >that are behind central filters that already cope with common spam. The variants of the Nigerian spam are getting cleverer and cleverer to get though the filters. I can't always immediately recognise them. No wonder the spam filter gets fooled too. We victims of spam collectively are about the silliest of victims imaginable. We provide a FREE service to the spammers to torment us with. WE SUBSIDISE THEM. It costs them almost nothing to send a spam, and even at the weakest response percentages they still make money. It is almost like providing ladders and setting out cookies and milk for the burglars. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:58:42 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Sheesh Roedy, to listen to you go anyone would think that human >communication was impossible before HTML email was invented. People got along fine wearing untanned moosehides too. I don't see any advantage in wearing a hair shirt. That is an unnatural way to talk. I know hundreds of people who would have not the tiniest clue what that email meant. You are indeed fortunate to have landed such a wife. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:49:32 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Oh gosh, pictures of a new house. Why didn't you say so??? If you're >sending pictures named "my_new_house1.jpg" etc then OF COURSE they have >to be imbedded in a HTML email, otherwise how could anyone know what they >were? I suppose your subscribe to the shoebox theory of picture handling. Just dump them in a box. It is OBVIOUS what they are. Go back to them years later, and you would be surprised how baffling they can be, or if the next generation wants to understand them. You suggest there is something nefarious about wanting to caption and share images by email. Why NOT? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:42:18 +0200, Stefaan A Eeckels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >"I don't understand that attitude. Don't we want email that has dancing > bears, cute little videos, musical tunes, animated waving hands, sixty > fonts, and looks like it's been done with crayolas? Good grief, man, > think like a three year old!" that excuse could also be used to explain why you have not cracked a book since high school. The same tools that create dancing bears can do a UML diagram. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:06:34 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Nah, I've just know people who spend a lot of time - and money - >dealing with spam, and we've discussed these issues at great >length. You haven't proposed anything that hasn't been proposed >before, and rejected for various reasons. As if what we are living with now were preferable to what I propose. It is inertia. It is herd mentality that dare not leap out of the current rut. It is not a particularly difficult technical problem. It is figuring out how to get people to switch over. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:42:02 +0200, Stefaan A Eeckels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >> > http://mindprod.com/projects.html/mailreadernewsreader.html > >It's gone :-) arghh. try http://mindprod.com/projects/mailreadernewsreader.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:33:43 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >> ...is pretty confusing - because "public key" is a term with a technical >> meaning in cryptography - and a public key really *is* public. > >The term you want is "wrong", not "confusing". In encryption the key you give others to encrypt messages to you is called the "public key". It is not public in the sense of everyone knows it. What term do you suggest? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:25:46 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >The downside is that I have no idea how many people try to contact me >out of the blue, or from an address other than the one I sent mail to, >but don't bother to answer the response. This is why I wanted a protocol where that was automated. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:25:46 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Right. Nobody sends email to addresses that come off business cards, >or off a web site, or Nowadays website email addresses are becoming rarer. Instead you fill in a form to initiate your conversation. In a business card exchange both parties might set up a permission for the other, so they are not exactly strangers. There are some people who naturally get mail from the general public, e.g. newspaper editors, salesmen, me. However, if you block a sufficiently high percentage of spam, the spam industry will go away and these people will be the natural beneficiaries. You don't need 100% spam blocking to effectively solve the spam problem. You just have to make spam uneconomic. There was an analogous problem with telephone spam. It was even easier for the telepest to get addresses, just add one. That was solved by legal means. It could come back as long distance rates drop and some country harbours them. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:04:49 -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gordon Burditt) wrote or quoted : >>Read my essay. >>http://mindprod.com/projects.html/mailreadernewsreader.html >> >>I talk around those problems. >> >>It requires a fresh start. that should read: http://mindprod.com/projects/mailreadernewsreader.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:04:49 -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gordon Burditt) wrote or quoted : >I think one necessary function of email and USENET is that it should >allow you to SAFELY communicate with strangers or, worse, people >you know but do not trust at all, Yes, but with spam ANY communication with an unwanted stranger is a nuisance. There are two kinds of stranger: 1. ones you want to talk to 2. ones you don't. How can you sort people? 1. ones that appear to be trying to sell something 2. ones that others have said were pests. 3. ones you have given temporary/special permission to contact you --- a code word in a personal ad or newsgroup post. 4. Ones who can convince you of their case in a single sentence. 5. Ones who have a reputation as non-spammers (by some sort of consumer reports bureau that issues digital ids.) 6. Ones you have rejected in past (aided by digital ids expensive enough people won't change them like underwear). -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:19:46 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Likewise I avoid emails that are broken. If it looks like it will contain >web-bugs, javascript exploits, or badly formatted unreadable text, then I >avoid any mail client that can't display it in plain text. > >And by "looks like", I mean "contains any HTML". That is overreacting. All you need is a something that refuses to run code. There is no need to ignore the formatting. I have well meaning friends who send me rather syrupy emails, formatted. I don't run any enclosures, but I look at the pictures and the message. They are not spam. If people like sending such messages to each other it is not our business to interfere. On the contrary. Our job it help people send arbitrary messages to each other as easily as possible. Censoring content and style is none of our business. Our job is to help get messages through reliably, safely and efficiently. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:35:58 -0700, Alan Balmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >And they don't know about attachments? Attachments are geeky kludge. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 06:28:04 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >What makes you think I don't have a copy of Opera? Just so happens >I've got a registred copy on my newest computer. > >> Then try out the feature. Click View | style | user > >My copy of Opera doesn't have that menu entry. I suspect you're making >platform-specific suggestions. Because you did not seem to be aware of the Opera features. I don't know what version you have or what platform you are using. The only one I can help you with is Opera 8.5 for Windows. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 06:32:07 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Formatted spam can include pictures of words. That's a common spam >tactic - send a multipart/alternative with a text part that look like >a letter from aunt jane - and mention that you're sending a >picture. The picture part is basically a jpeg of a flyer for the spam >companies product. Such a jpg would have a lot more sharp edges than a usual photo. Also you tend to have areas of just two colours. Some edge detecting software might have a go at it. However, my rule of thumb is I would not accept photos from the general public, only from a subset of my correspondendents. That makes a photo a strong spam indicator. Then there are small corporate logos, which are innocuous. Spamnix does not have such a filtering rule. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
>>I think e-mail should be text only. What if, instead of that crap Outlook produces, which is a mishmash of malformed html, Javascript viruses, self-installing enclosures etc. It were replaced by a rich text that were something like a CSS-style HTML, validated, and preparsed, and compacted for rapid rendering. It would have no hooks in it for viruses or code launching, though it would have clearly marked hypertext links. The question I am getting at is what is bugging you the most? 1. spam which is often associated with formatted mail 2. Trojans that exploit MS email. 3. cutsie pie dancing bears 4. sloppy implementation 5. slow email downloads 6. Puritanical objection to any variation in colour and font. It is unmanly. 7. want it impossible to embed images, not just for you but for everyone. No one has a legitimate interest to embed images. Let us say your answer is all 7. My response is the solution is not to revert to plain text for email. It won't happen. The solution is to move forward and fix the implementations. It is one thing to demand all mail sent to you have no formatting, but quite another to demand all mail sent by anyone to anyone have no formatting or embedded images. I think a modern email system should let your correspondents automatically know of your eccentricity so that mail will automatically be stripped to the bone before sending it to you. My ISP has this quirk and gets irate if I ever slip and send him a formatted mail. I would love it if Eudora remembered that for me and automatically prevented me from doing that. Formatted email has quite legit functions. For example the Health Action Network Society has an optional mailing list that will let you know of any upcoming events relevant to alternative health. The mail looks like a little poster for the event. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
uOn Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:02:23 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dave Hansen) wrote or quoted : >Summary: a buffer overflow problem in Microsoft's JPEG redering >library, used my almost all Windoze email and web clients, would allow >an attacker to execute any arbitrary code he wished on your computer >simply by tricking you into viewing a doctored JPEG image. Since >solved (this problem is _so_ last year, dahling), but it belies your >assertion that "pictures are not code." By your definition all socket communications contains code because of the existence of buffer overrun "bugs" -- probably deliberately put there by unscrupulous employees. The pictureness is not at fault. MS was at fault. No wonder the community has failed to solve spam with attitudes like that -- extreme naysaying, misplacing the source of the problem, and calling each other "dahling" is bound to get everyone out of a problem-solving mode. You probably were all told the story of the three sillies as a child about people who wept themselves to inaction worrying imagined futures rather than dealing with the realities of the present. I think fretting about minutiae, and the desire for a perfect ant-spam solution has blocked getting on with a reasonable solution. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:07:15 -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gordon Burditt) wrote or quoted : > Links > Javascript > Forms > References to other files the only piece of that particularly dangerous is JavaScript. So long as you have a scheme to unmask where links are really going links are no more dangerous than they are in browser. Even a form is not dangerous. You have to fill it in and hit submit. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:46:12 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Viruses can mail out change of address messages to everyone in the >compromised machine's address book today. > >Of course, viruses don't bother doing that - since it's stupid and >pointless. A virus is interested in the address book mainly if there as a way it can send itself to other machines, get at their address book in a fission explosion and spread without human intervention. The key that makes that possible is Microsoft's features for running self-executing code in emails. That is the problem. It has nothing to do with formatting or pictures. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:12:46 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Suppose I wanted to gather industrial espionage about, oh, say Roedy >Green. If my virus could impersonate him, I could tell everyone in sight >that his email has changed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (or wherever). I would >harvest his email I would say by extrapolating the problem of spam and snooping that the next level of email software needs to concentrate on the following: 1. routine and transparent encryption. 2. making spam no longer economic. Blocking all spam is, even in theory, impossible. I sometimes read a message and am ambivalent myself about whether I wanted to read or receive it. The key is to provide efficient, transparent spam solutions. They can be layered to filter higher and higher percentages of mail depending on how big your spam problem is. 3. prevent phishing. When PayPal sends you an email, you want to know for sure it really is from PayPal. This means corporate users at least will all have digital ids, and all emails will be digitally signed. 4. status tracking. Unless blocked by the receiver, the sender knows if his message has been receiveived/read. 5. making it impossible for any incoming email to mount any sort of attack. the only parts the email software processes are the data parts. Any enclosed programs must be explicitly installed. The email software would warn if any code were not digitally signed with proper certificate to identify the author. Especially with spam, there are no perfect solutions, but at least we could do many times better than what we are living with and put the spammers out of business. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:32:03 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >That won't prevent phishing, that will just raise the threshhold a >little. The first hurdle you have to get past is that most mail agents >want to show a human name, not some random collection of symbols that >map to a unique address. Even if you do that, most readers aren't >going to pay attention to said random collection of symbols. Given >that, there are *lots* of tricks that can be used to disguise the >signed name, most of which phishers are already using. How many people >do you think will really notice that mail from "John Bath, PayPal >Customer Service Representative" ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) isn't really >from paypal? I think it better than you imagine. First of all Mr. Phish will come in as a new communicant begging an audience. That is your first big clue. PayPal is already allowed in. Next if Thawte issues certs, they won't allow Phish names such as Paypol.com just as now for other certs. Mr. Phish is coming in on a different account. Next Mr. Phish had to present his passport etc when he got his Thawte ID. Now Interpol has a much better handle on putting him in jail. He can't repudiate his phishing attempt. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:13:28 GMT, Keith Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >A partial solution to spam, or at least to pollution of Usenet >newsgroups, would be to STOP POSTING THIS STUFF TO NEWSGROUPS WHERE >IT'S NOT RELEVANT. Technically yes. But those folk in the appropriate newsgroups have had years to solve this and all we hear is despair. They are too concerned with the day to day alligator swamp draining to think about the big picture.. Perhaps it is time to toss the problem in front of a less beaten down group of potential problem solvers. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:17:45 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >No, that's what makes email a vector for infection. What makes using >the address book - for whatever purpose - possible for viruses is >having an API that allows arbitrary code to access it. But you have to >have that API - your customers are going to insist that they be able >to use their address book from third party applications. An automated change of address is possible today. It would be LESS easy to pull off under the scheme I proposed that requires digital signatures. Yes there are some downsides to a theoretical attack where phony change of address messages are sent out. They don't propagate. They don't corrupt. They are self healing when the original guy gets his virus problem under control. But you must balance that against the REAL downside of people's address books being filled with obsolete email addresses. And of course one of the reasons they are is people keep changing their email addresses to hide on spam. I am just saving as lot of busy work keeping them up to date. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:43:56 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Yup, you solved an easy problem - designing a spam-proof email >system. That's been done any number of times. The hard part is a >deployment strategy that will actually get the world to transition to >such a system. That's why earlier nearly identical proposals got >rejected - nobody could come up with a workable transition plan. >Without a transition plan, a better email system is only of academic >interest - and not even much of that at this late date. The big problem with any new system would be it cannot communicate with others. So presumably your clients need to talk both old and new protocols. Just say, YES, you need the old mail system too, but you will find yourself using it less and less. So how do you promote it given that you can't talk to everyone with it? 1. confidentiality. -- All is encrypted. Sell it as something for confidential intra-corporate communications. This just happens transparently. This means you CAN'T accidentally reveal a company secret by bungling the software or forgetting to encrypt. 2. faster -- presume both ends are online 24-7. Do everything 8-bit transparent, compressed prior to encryption. All decrypting and compressing/decompressing is transparent. 3. prestige -- for people whose time is too valuable to deal with spam. Perhaps clients are designed so someone else can deal with giving and revoking permissions for you and prioritising your mail. The riffraff are not on this net, only those with certificates, people of distinction. Software in designed so a secretary can monitor and manage several other VIP's mail. Recall that there were intra-net emails long before the Internet. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 14 Oct 2005 19:01:42 -0700, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs. If that's >not monopoly, i don't know what is. They got where they are by CHEATING. That is why they are evil, not because they have a large market share. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:30:41 GMT, Tim Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >>Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful >>than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb >>mainframe terminals. > >Utter hogwash. Computer hardware would still have followed the path it >did. I suspect we'd all be using WordPerfect or AbiWord on some kind of >Unix clone, and I also suspect application integration wouldn't be as >commonplace as it now is, but it's silly to credit Microsoft with the >ubiquity of powerful computers. Granted MS did figure out all kinds of ways to waste RAM and CPU power thus forcing people to upgrade to more powerful computers. What might have happened with someone else leading the charge it we would be using less powerful computers but getting more spritely response. That is like saying you credit SUV owners for any advances in alternative energy because they helped burn up the oil faster. MS has held BACK computer evolution by tying their OS so heavily to the Pentium architecture. The chip architecture has nowhere near enough registers. MS refused to believe the Internet was more than a passing fad. They are still frantically patching security holes in their OS over a decade later. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 15 Oct 2005 22:47:45 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Opera seems to be making money with it. Also, Firefox gets money from >Google kickback. Maybe MS had a similar idea in mind, but it failed >(remember how they wanted to add ads to keywords in webpages?) There also had that Passport thing. They probably figured they would take over Internet commerce and get rich off the user fees. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 16 Oct 2005 00:47:09 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Ok, let me spell it out for you: If all your applications are web based, >and the OS shouldn't matter, why do Linux distributions matter? The point is you make your choice based on quality of the OS and distribution, not whether it can run a given piece of software. Web apps, Java and other multiplatform tools force OSes to compete on quality, not on proprietary lockin. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 16 Oct 2005 05:22:47 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >No, it's a recommendation, an advise, nothing else. Otherwise they would >call it a standard. Why do you think W3C calls it recommendations? Because >it are no standards. There is an ISO HTML standard though, but when people >babble about HTML standards they talk about W3C *recommendations*. What do you think the Internet is based on? RFCs. That stands for "Request For Comment". It is an in-sort of Internet humour to name standards that way. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 15:48:18 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Go down to your local car dealer and see if you can buy a new car >without an engine. Given that that the OS and the hardware come from completely different companies, I think that a specious analogy. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:22:58 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I guess I wasn't explicit enough. Most people who want cars also want an >engine. Some don't. Dealers could sell cars and engines separately. They >just (generally) don't. There is nothing illegal or immoral about this. I used to be a retailer of custom computers. MS used a dirty trick to compete with IBM's OS/2. They said to me as a retailer. You must buy a copy of our OS for EVERY machine you sell. The alternative is to pay full retail for the OSes. That meant a customer who wanted OS/2 had to effectively also buy an unwanted copy of Windows. How could OS/2 compete? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:49:58 +0200, "Jeroen Wenting" wrote or quoted : >They are the ones who lowered the price of shrinkwrapped software for home >and office application from thousands or tens of thousands to hundreds of >dollars. Come now. While software generally has reduced in price, MS software has increased. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 23:24:21 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bengt Richter) wrote or quoted : >>I try to explain Java each day both on my website on the plaintext >>only newsgroups. It is so much easier to get my point across in HTML. >How about pdf? End users HATE PDF. Why? It takes so long for the reader to load. It is so slow on older machines to render and scroll. My complaint with it is it is Adobe proprietary. This make the tools very expensive. I like PDF because: 1. documents have to be prepared before posting. This means you don't have malformed syntax in them. 2. You can reasonably quickly turn computer printouts or paper documents into web content. 3. You don't have to guess what the end user will see. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 16 Oct 2005 12:30:06 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote or quoted : >The only reason that Linux/OpenOffice/GIMP/Apachee/MySQL/ The catch is there are SO many SQL engines, even if MS bought up MySQL and PostGre SQL one of the others would just pop to the fore as the new free standard bearer. see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/sqlvendors.html Here is a field where there is healthy competition. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 17 Oct 2005 03:17:16 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Which standards? Again: w3c is not an official standards organization. What does it take in your book for a standards organisation to be "official" -- a Swiss head office, a room at the UN, a branch on the US government tree? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:17:03 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Yup. When NS was the 800 lb gorilla on they acted like MS, I think you would need to give some examples. They gave away a free browser. What other evil thing did they do? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:29:36 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >By the way, this is based on the same flawed premise that a lot of >post-Y2K griping was based on. It went like this, "wow, we get all concerned >and spent all this money on a problem that never even happened". Well, >perhaps it didn't happen because we were all concerned and spent all this >money on it. The worry was that the work would not be completed in time. The work had to be done or the programs would simply stop working. There was no way to avoid the expense. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:36:53 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >As for it being illegal, it was illegal only because if was Microsoft >doing it. There's nothing illegal about a car dealer not selling a car >without an engine. But that is not what was happening. It was not Microsoft selling computers with MS OSs. MS was arm-twisting retailers like me to bundle a copy of Windows with every sale whether the customer wanted it or not. I think some imagine a computer is worthless without Windows. That gave their OS a grossly unfair price advantage. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 02:25:18 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Actually, *any* company with a defacto monopoly pulling such a stunt >would be found in violation of the law. Such companies operate under >different legal rules than other companies. This was true when IBM was >the company that was dancing with the DOJ, and it'll be true long >after MS is nothing more than a memory. I don't know if anyone has >spelled this out to MS, but IBM was told so in no uncertain terms. MS would still be dancing with the DOJ hand Gates not bribed Bush to pull the plug on the prosecution. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:37:35 -0700, Alan Balmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >You've been around long enough to learn to recognize this poster and >ignore him. Sounds like your plonk filter is on the fritz then. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:43:16 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I understand why the argument is invalid. I'm presenting it as an >example of a similar invalid argument. Not every post is meant to contradict or inform the OP. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:44:55 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >It is not Microsoft's obligation to be "fair". It is Microsoft's >obligation to push their vision of the future of computing, one with >Microsoft's products at the center, using anything short of force or fraud. I think that what they did borders on force/fraud. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 06:20:56 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >That an HTML standard (ISO/IEC 15445:2000) and an HTML recommendation by >w3c (4.01 for example) are two different things, and mixing them up by >calling both standards is a bad thing. Because ... what are the consequences? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:21:55 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I don't think any of it bordered on force or fraud. However, their >obligation to their shareholders requires them to do anythign that borders >on force/fraud so long as it isn't force/fraud. I avoid MS products whenever possible. Surely others feel the same way because we have had it up to the teeth with MS dirty tactics. That has to be factored into profitability as well. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:40:26 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I didn't think unicode domain names existed. you can even buy them. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/domainnames.html under "Chinese Domain Names". -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 06:57:47 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >>>That an HTML standard (ISO/IEC 15445:2000) and an HTML recommendation by >>>w3c (4.01 for example) are two different things, and mixing them up by >>>calling both standards is a bad thing. >> >> Because ... what are the consequences? > >If you mean if you are put in jail for 20 years, and tortured, none. No. ANY consequences. You have not explained the downside. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:12:23 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >> - Any ability to automatically generate hits on sender-specified >> servers when the email is read. > >I hadn't though of that one. As well as use in DDOS attacks, that >can help let spammers know if they have reached a human :-| If you think about it, much as you hate spammers you WANT them to have that information. If you never read spam, and they know that, they eventually might stop sending it to you and focus on the nitwits who read it. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:59:47 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Essentially, IM can do pretty-much everything email can these days, but >the reverse is not true at all. The problem with IM is the various IM schemes don't talk to each other. You need a client that knows all the IM protocols. But that seems to be happening with Jabber and Trillian. You have too much reliance on a central server. You have to trust the relaying company. I think it is time that nearly all mail was routinely and transparently end to end encrypted, with the exception of long enclosures that are explicitly marked not confidential. You still have spam to a lesser extent and strangers just wanting to talk. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 18:02:53 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >If you think you can direct the development of human behaviour by not >buying a Microsoft product, be my guest. Refusing to take any action against them is also immoral. I think you are morally obligated to take some reasonable action to counter Microsoft, effective in and of itself or not. Your counsel is similar to those who tell people it is futile to vote. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke I had an experience that changed my completely on that sort of issue. I started gay lib in my part of the world purely as a "futile moral gesture". Within 2 years to my utter amazement, we had the gay rights legislation. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:53:29 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >The only obligation Microsoft has is to their shareholders. >> >> If you genuinely believe that, you are a psychopath. > >That's almost as convincing as "that's what you think". Taken literally, you think MS has no obligation to obey the law, to its customers, to its employees. I don't think you will find many CEOs espousing those sentiments, though you will in alt.politics.bush from those who have just read their first book outside of school reading and picked an Ayn Rand novel. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:53:29 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >>> >>> Wrong. The only obligation Microsoft has is to their shareholders. >> >> If you genuinely believe that, you are a psychopath. > >That's almost as convincing as "that's what you think". If your only obligation is to a group of person, that makes you a sort of slave. What about obligations to family, community, yourself? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 12:34:18 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote or quoted : > > "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the > initiative in creating the Internet." He did just that. Think about it. Without Gore, the Internet would never have been delayed perhaps indefinitely. Without any of he technical people, someone else would have done the same work. Even the guys who did the low level protocols credit Gore. Your forget how much abuse folk like you heaped on Gore when he was pushing the "information super highway" as it was known back then. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 13:21:19 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote or quoted : >existed then. > >Yes, he deserves credit for what he did. He nevertheless created a >false impression in what he said. If he hadn't created that false >impression, there would not have been any jokes about him. If all he >said was what he actually did, this would never have been an issue. It is standard procedure to twist another politician's words and tease him like a gang of 4 year olds. Think of poor Mr. Bush. People quote him all the time. :-) See http://mindprod.com/politics/bushisms.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:30:42 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >No, taken stupidly. Hint: would or would not MS executives disobeying >the law constitute a betrayal of their obligation to their shareholders? You stated it literally as if making maximum profit for the shareholders were the only consideration in determining conduct. If that is not what you mean, I think you need to hedge more. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:34:55 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > As for obligations to community, no, there is no such obligation. An >executive who devoted his company to his community against his shareholders' >wishes should be fired. The company exists as a vehicle to execute the >desires of the shareholders. That's why they get to vote on who runs it. Why should loyalty to company trump all other loyalties -- family, law, species, community, country, religion ... ? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:16:32 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >No, I did not. I said that their obligation is to their shareholders. > >> If that is not what you mean, I think you need to hedge more. > >I was perfectly clear. This is a lot of deliberate misunderstanding >going on in this thread and very little of it is from my side. > You have a problem because there are many other people saying similar things to you who mean something much more extreme. If you don't intend that, you need to be more precise in your language. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:18:31 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Perhaps you aren't following the thread, but I was talking about the >obligations a company has, not the obligations any individual has. And I was >talking about obligations *to* individuals. To me that makes no sense. Microsoft is an abstraction. It can't do anything. It can't make decisions. Only the individuals to work for it or on the board can, though they may do it in Microsoft's name. If you want to talk about moral action, obligation etc. you can't divorce that from the people who do the actions. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:10:55 GMT, Alan Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >To all the shit-for-brains trolls that are polluting these groups >with this crap, which I haven't even bothered to read: A single thread does not pollute a group. It is trivially easy to ignore a thread. If your newsreader does not support that feature, try an different newsreader. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/newsgroups.html It is a big thread. Obviously people are interested in it even if you are not. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 01:54:14 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >They have obligations to their clients because (and only because) >failure to provide the services they contract to provide will result in >lawsuits and harm to the shareholders. All other obligations come from the >harm these failures will do to the shareholders. That's the view of Republican, but it is not the only view. Some might say the law trumps that. It does not matter if breaking the law would be more profitable, you still don't do it. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 19 Oct 2005 09:41:09 GMT, Antoon Pardon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >As far as I understand you, the company should ship the faulty model. This is what they do. However, I find it odd people seriously suggesting that is the way society SHOULD run. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 03:15:03 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Did I say their obligation was to secure their shareholders as much >profit as possible? I said their obligation was to their shareholders. You are literally saying people work for a company have an obligation to the shareholders. That is too obvious to be bothered with announcing. The employees take the shareholder's money, so obviously they have an obligation to produce something in return. When I read your words, I think you really mean this is the prime or sole obligation of an employee. I disagree with that. There are many loyalties that compete. Personally, the loyalty to the preservation of my planet is far above loyalty to any company. For example, I would feel a moral obligation to be a whistleblower of actions of a company that was destroying the environment. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:07:51 GMT, "Mike Schilling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >his status >as employee gives him no additional rights or responsibilities in this >respect. It may not be so in law, but I think most moral codes put more onus on the employee than the average citizen. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:27 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > There is no way Microsoft could have expected the >market to be defined in this way and no way to argue that Microsoft had any >reason to believe their conduct was illegal. If what they did to me in the 90s was not illegal it damn well should have been. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:10:24 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >If the deal didn't give you more than it cost you, all you had to do was >say 'no'. I understand the frustration at being forced to pay for something >what it is worth. The choice was go along with MS arm twisting or go out of business. I call that extortion. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 01:00:31 GMT, Roedy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >The choice was go along with MS arm twisting or go out of business. > >I call that extortion. I deeply resent this, because they not only ripped me off, they put me a in position I felt compelled to become part of their dirty business scheme. I am angrier for my own uncleanness than I am at my actual financial losses. I despise them for corrupting me. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:46:53 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Or would you like to suggest that Microsoft's board of directors should be >allowed carte blache to break any law, commit any deed, so long as it >makes Microsoft money? Why should the standards of acceptable conduct be any lower for groups of people (namely corporations) than individuals? It would be like excusing bad behaviour based on other group memberships such as churches or gangs. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:54:58 -0300, "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >As well as blame. The commercialization of the Internet was grossly >mismanaged. Take the InterNIC - please! As global bureaucracies go, I think they have done a good job. Can you imagine herding the cats of egotistical dictators and politicians from every country on earth who have not a clue about what the function of domain are? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:16:24 GMT, Roedy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >>As well as blame. The commercialization of the Internet was grossly >>mismanaged. Take the InterNIC - please! > >As global bureaucracies go, I think they have done a good job. Can >you imagine herding the cats of egotistical dictators and politicians >from every country on earth who have not a clue about what the >function of domain are? Imagine assigning two letter abbreviations to 200 five years olds and getting them to accept their assignments. That would be a much easier task. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:35:13 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I see that you cannot make a reasoned argument against the fact that >property in the form of houses is taxed in America. And what has his inability to do that to your satisfaction got to do with the price of eggs? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:59:33 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I think you need to look up "extortion" in a dictionary. In the days prior to Win95, Microsoft said "Co-operate with us is this immoral scheme to screw OS/2 or go out of business. Your choice." I call that extortion, even if their lawyers were careful enough to skirt the letter of the law. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:06:36 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Do you think it would be immoral if Microsoft said, "we will only sell >Windows wholesale to dealers who don't sell other operating systems?" I had an existing independent business. I was not as though I were an MS franchise. They imposed this extortion well into my business's life. My choice was comply or go out of business. It was not as if I had a choice of sell Hondas or sell Kias if I did like the franchise deal. To my way of thinking what MS did was similar to a the only magasine wholesaler in town telling retailers it had to sell kiddie porn under the table or pay full retail for all magazines. I broke my own ethical code rather than go out of business. I will never forgive MS for putting me in that position. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:21:45 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >2) There are other realistic competing operating systems. In this case, >you were foolish to agree to Microsoft's deal. You lost out on the realistic >competing markets. That is, unless Windows only really was a better deal, in >which case you were wise to take the deal and have no reason to be upset. The actuality at the time was the vast majority of my business was Windows. People would ask about OS/2 and when they asked around town and discovered because of the MS dirty deal it cost way more, they lost interest. I could not have made a living selling only OS/2. It is was a very difficult business to survive in as it was and I was already at a disadvantage because of my insistence on not cutting corners the way my competitors did. Every once in a while I run into one of my machines I built back in the early 90s still going without a hitch over a decade later. I don't think I could make it clearer. What MS did was wrong and I will to my dying day curse them for it. If I were a Christian, I would put it this way. The pressured me into selling my soul. They did not tempt me into it. They threatened to destroy my business and my livelihood if I did not knuckle under. That is extortion. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:36:37 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >> Yes, it certainly is. However, it is also Microsoft's right as a seller >> to refuse discounts to those who also sell competing products. You may not It was not a discount. I was being denied the right to buy from any wholesaler. The "deal" MS offered was that I as an independent retailer had to by ALL my MS OS products retail if I wanted to sell even one machines without Windows. That would have been easily enough to put any retailer out of business if he did not comply. Even in retrospect, when I kick myself for abandoning my principles, It would still be a tough decision. 1. I had eight people working for me who would have become unemployed. 2. The city would have lost one of its most ethical retailers. 3. Microsoft would STILL have won. 4. I would have had to put up taunts from people calling me crazy for destroying my business in what they would see as a vainglorious attempt to stop the Microsoft juggernaut. What MS did was put me in a position where felt I had little choice but to violate my OWN moral code of conduct. That is what has me so pissed. It is bad enough to be extorted from. It even worse to be forced into a racket to extort others. If any one here considers what MS did acceptable I am glad by their public stance they have warned others off ever having business dealings with them because their low standards of conduct. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 02:03:36 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >You don't care that because of Microsoft's neglect, there are millions of >zombie PCs running their sub-standard OS across the world, sending >hundreds of millions of spam emails? Of course he cares. He is a shill. He licks that hand that feeds him. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
