Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On 11/01/16 19:13, Oleg Bartunov wrote: [...] Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, we in Russia are not really concern about this. [...] I started using 'Gender Appropriate' language long before this PC nonsense started up. Back in those days the word 'he' in instructions included the female gender, which I though was stupid. Back then, and also these days, I see no point in mentioning gender unless it is relevant. So I use: one, they, their, and them. Which avoids the gender specific problem, and also suggests (as is usually the case) that one or more people are involved. The problem with he/she is also that it is not totally politically correct either, what about people who are a bit of both, and/or can't decide? Not to mention people with multiple personalities, not always of the same gender (I spent a few years conversing with people in the usenet group alt.sexual.abuse.recovery - long story, but I got into it when I did a project on network traffic). I also did some research when I read an article that said about 10% of children born on an island started life looking like girls, but changed into males at the time of puberty, apparently about 0.5% (depending on precise definitions) of children world wide are born not definitely of any particular gender. Cheers, Gavin -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: Things to notice (was Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?, broken thread I hope)
On 11/01/16 15:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: Someone (never mind who, this isn't intended to be a blame-game message) wrote: Am I, as a mere male […] :-) It was me. The phrase "Mere Male" was title of a column I read in NZ Women's Weekly that my mother bought when I was a teenager. >>> An an aside: the use of '[...]' is something I introduced into usenet about 1991, previously people used '[ omitted ]' - when I was at the Victoria University of Wellington (NZ) <<< The rest of the sentience you omitted, was inspired by a woman complaining that when she turned up to one feminist meeting, her baby was removed when some other women found it was male. Even with the smiley, _this_ is the sort of thing that causes discussions to wander into hopeless weeds from which projects cannot emerge. I _know_ it is tempting to make this kind of remark. But it's not cool, it doesn't help, and it is exactly the sort of thing that makes some people think CoCs are needed in the first place. Your reply is exactly why a Coc is dangerous. Almost anything people say, can be interpreted by someone as either offensive and/or inappropriate! Suppose you were an uncertain young woman from a culture where men have legal authority over you. Suppose the only interaction with programming peers you get is online. (Yes, I know of at least one such case personally.) This sort of sarcastic remark, smiley or no, causes you a new uncertainty. It was not intended to be sarcastic. Note that even between England and the USA there is a culture gap. For example: British comedians found lots of Americans could not understand sarcasm, hence the habit of saying 'Not!' after a positive statement and a short pause. Just be sensitive to the fact that the Internet is bigger than your world, however big it is, and things will be better. My wife is Chinese, I lived in Sierra Leone for a couple of years, Ireland for about 4 years. I was born in England, live in New Zealand, have visited several other countries including Australia & the USA. I have also considered aspects of culture (both human & alien) relating to living on other planets, not all orbiting our star. So my world view might be bigger than yours! Before I started using the Internet & email I had read that electronic communication does not have a non-verbal component. I've been using the Internet for 25 years - I found within a year that there is considerable non-verbal aspects to communication. However, when you see someone face-to-face, you can tell their mood. So there are some things I might say to someone's face, that I would not put in an email as I don't know their state of mind when they come to read it - that is quite apart from wondering what the various spy agencies will make of my communication. I am not a big believer in written-down rules: I think mostly they're a fetishizing of constitutional arrangements like those of the US and Canada (which mostly don't work for those who are not already enfranchised). But we can do something about that by thinking about that possibility much more than we can do something about it by writing down rules. Try defining a car that includes everything that you consider a car, and excludes everything that doesn't. If you do the exercise properly, you will find it impossible, no matter how much nor how carefully you write! Now most people would agree what a car is (For the Americans use 'automobile'), yet trying to define it rigorously is simply not feasible. Still, the exercise of writing down rules may help to notice things one wouldn't say to a friend. And I hope we're all friends here. I had a boss who was a Maori who was (& is still) a great friend, of whom I have considerable respect. There are things I said to him that are definitely not PC, that he took in the intended spirit, that would be inappropriate to say in public. I was very careful not to be in that mode too often, as it would be somewhat wearing. A couple of years later he was quite happy to hire me for another project. It is the perceived intention of what one says that is important, not what one actually says! For another example, you can be very rude simply by being inappropriately polite. I've often called my best friend a bastard - but due to context, he took as a compliment. Best regards, A -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Japanese, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 03:27:43PM +0900, Michael Paquier wrote: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Oleg Bartunov wrote: > > Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, we > > in Russia are not really concern about this. > > This depends on how the language is built. For example in French I > think it would matter (not living there for long though so perhaps my > perception is incorrect), and in Japanese it just doesn't matter, > there is no such concept. OTOH, there's a whole bunch of words denoting levels and sublevels of politeness for each and every situation. Karsten Hilbert -- GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Russian, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 09:13:32AM +0300, Oleg Bartunov wrote: > Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, we > in Russia are not really concern about this. Russian offers a "Mr.Bartunov" and a "Mrs.Bartunova". Am I mistaken ? Karsten Hilbert -- GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: Russian, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On 1/11/16, Karsten Hilbert wrote: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 09:13:32AM +0300, Oleg Bartunov wrote: > >> Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, >> we >> in Russia are not really concern about this. > > Russian offers a "Mr.Bartunov" and a "Mrs.Bartunova". Am I mistaken ? > > Karsten Hilbert Yes, but I guess Oleg meant pronouns in documents. In situations like 'When the user has to do something, firstly _he_ must do something else'. In Russian pronouns have their own "gender" not necessarily connected to a gender of real user who is reading the doc and in most cases such pronouns are "masculine", that's why we don't concern to replace "he" to "he/she" or somewhat else. -- Best regards, Vitaly Burovoy -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: Russian, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 01:50:50AM -0800, Vitaly Burovoy wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 09:13:32AM +0300, Oleg Bartunov wrote: > > > >> Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, > >> we > >> in Russia are not really concern about this. > > > > Russian offers a "Mr.Bartunov" and a "Mrs.Bartunova". Am I mistaken ? > > > > Karsten Hilbert > > Yes, but I guess Oleg meant pronouns in documents. > In situations like 'When the user has to do something, firstly _he_ > must do something else'. > In Russian pronouns have their own "gender" not necessarily connected > to a gender of real user who is reading the doc and in most cases such > pronouns are "masculine", that's why we don't concern to replace "he" > to "he/she" or somewhat else. I understand. Thank you for the explanation. Karsten Hilbert -- GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: Japanese, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On понедельник, 11 января 2016 г. 12:24:37 MSK, Karsten Hilbert wrote: OTOH, there's a whole bunch of words denoting levels and sublevels of politeness for each and every situation. Politeness but not gender differences. Perhaps just for kids (-chan/-kun). -- Yury Zhuravlev Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com The Russian Postgres Company -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: Japanese, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:57:11PM +0300, Yury Zhuravlev wrote: > >OTOH, there's a whole bunch of words denoting levels and > >sublevels of politeness for each and every situation. > Politeness but not gender differences. Perhaps just for kids (-chan/-kun). Well, traditionally not. But kare/kano-jo tend to be used that way these days. All in all, in Japanese politeness and gender specifics seem to blend into each other. Here's a bit of semi-formal discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-specific_pronoun#Japanese Karsten -- GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] BDR: cascading setup
Hi, We are evaluating BDR for a multi-master cross-datacenter replication, with 2 masters actually communicating across datacenter, supplemented by a local in-datacenter replicas to provide HA. Basically, something like M <——> M || S S I could run all nodes as multi-masters, but I don’t want many-to-many cross-datacenter communications, primary because of the latency issues, and also to avoid locking too many nodes on DDL changes. As far as I see, I cannot make a promoted physical replica a member of the multi-master group without re-joining the group after promotion (which leads to re-transfering the whole database over the network from the surviving master), see https://github.com/2ndQuadrant/bdr/issues/98, so running multi-master with physical datacenter-local replicas is tough, but is there a better alternative at the moment, i.e: - BDR multi-master being part of more than one replication group (I could create one group for cross-DS multi-masters, and another for DS-local communications)? - BDR multi-master being also master with several UDR replicas attached (so that DS-local nodes will be running as UDR replicas of a master, that at the same time communicates via BDR to another master in another DS), and allowing the UDR replica to join the BDR group if the master dies. Kind regards, -- Oleksii
Re: [GENERAL] Request - repeat value of \pset title during \watch interations
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:36 AM, David G. Johnston wrote: > When executing a query using \watch in psql the first execution of the query > includes "Title is [...]" when \pset title is in use. Subsequent executions > do not. Once that first display goes off-screen the information in the > title is no longer readily accessible. If using \watch for a long-running > monitoring query it can be helpful to incorporate some context information > into the title. Yeah, this sounds like a good idea to show it at each iteration if the title is set. I am not sure we would want to treat that as a bug fix as nothing is broken, it looks more like a new feature. > Any suggestions for a better way to accomplish the goal? What I have been doing in such cases until now is updating the name of the terminal tab to identify what was going on. -- Michael -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] 9.4 -> 9.5 upgrade problem when both python2 and python3 present
pg_upgrade complains about not being able to find $libdir/plpython3 when upgrading a 9.4 cluster that has both python2 and python3 used. Both the 9.4 and 9.5 PGs have been built from source with python2/3 in the recommended way and the plpython3.so is present in /usr/local/pgsql/lib. I dropped the python2 database but still got the problem. The session: postgres@mayon:~$ pg_upgrade -b /usr/local/pgsql9.4/bin -B /usr/local/pgsql/bin -d /mnt/pgdata9.4 -D /mnt/pgdata Performing Consistency Checks - Checking cluster versions ok Checking database user is the install user ok Checking database connection settings ok Checking for prepared transactions ok Checking for reg* system OID user data typesok Checking for contrib/isn with bigint-passing mismatch ok Creating dump of global objects ok Creating dump of database schemas ok Checking for presence of required libraries fatal Your installation references loadable libraries that are missing from the new installation. You can add these libraries to the new installation, or remove the functions using them from the old installation. A list of problem libraries is in the file: loadable_libraries.txt Failure, exiting postgres@mayon:~$ cat *.txt Could not load library "$libdir/plpython3" FATAL: Python major version mismatch in session DETAIL: This session has previously used Python major version 2, and it is now attempting to use Python major version 3. HINT: Start a new session to use a different Python major version. server closed the connection unexpectedly This probably means the server terminated abnormally before or while processing the request. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Packages for Ubuntu Wily
Small update: Today the missing "pgdg-keyring" has been added to the "wily-pgdg" apt repository. My problem is thereby mostly resolved! :-) Now only waiting for a new "pgadmin3" package... Thanks everyone (and especially the package maintainers)! Best regards, Henning. -- Henning Hoefer Software Engineer Device Insight GmbH, Willy-Brandt-Platz 6, D-81829 München http://www.device-insight.com Sitz der Gesellschaft: München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München HRB 149018 Geschäftsführer: Reinhold Stammeier -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] Offline Tablespaces and Partial Restore
I'm evaluating the use of PostgreSQL to our production mission-critical application that currently runs on SQL Server 2012. There is a huge partitioned table of archived information that is occasionally queried (+5TB) and are not required to be 24/7 online. An eventual failure on the filesystem that stores these tables must not compromise the whole cluster. Another concern is on an eventual restore of the database, as I havent found a way to start the cluster without some of its tablespaces. I've tried to put the data on another database but it didn't help as tablespaces are required cluster-wide on startup. Is there a way to take these tablespaces offline so I could do some maintenace work or startup the database with the archived data offline? Thanks in advance, Pedro Ivo
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
> On Jan 10, 2016, at 2:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > On 01/10/2016 10:44 AM, Regina Obe wrote: > >>> JD >> >> This may come as a big shock to many of you, but as a contributor >> I don't care if you are racist, sexist, transphobic or whatever as long as >> you > > I think this is reasonable but my point is that we don't care if you are > sexist (in terms of .Org). We care if you allow your sexism to bleed into the > community. > > In short, as long as you are professional and respectful, your personal > beliefs may remain your own. > My problem with all of this is when there is a demand for no tolerance. People cannot comfortably live and work without some level of their essence (good or bad) bleeding into their work. I think Regina’s comment above is the most important comment I have read. I want to work with Regina, right attitude, right focus. And if I did step over the line and Regina felt the need to address the issue I would very very much respect it. This is the attitude that a code of conduct should project, not all of the politically correct crap that is normally written. It is important to protect the community from people who are on a mission to rid the world (or the community) of all ass-holes, racists, sexists, etc. That is never going to happen and their personal hate trip and lack of tolerance should not be in the community either. Certainly there is a line that should not be crossed from both extremes, but we need to be tolerant while people are learning and adapting so the gap between the two lines needs to be as wide as possible. The code of conduct IMO must address both extremes. Honestly, I would rather work with someone that offended me every day than someone that was so easily offended that I had to watch every word in our communications. In managing projects, my experience is that more often that not, the people that focused on the style of the communications (politically correct, pleasing words, etc.) and were easily offended by style of communications had contributions that were much less valuable than people that were neutral or rough around the edges. The community will make more progress if it can find a way to accept these ‘rough around the edges’ people, not because they are rough, but because roughness does not degrade value except at the extreme. Often someone that is ‘rough around the edges’ has to be better at their work to make up for it. These are good people to keep around if possible. Neil -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] 9.4 -> 9.5 upgrade problem when both python2 and python3 present
Paul Jones writes: > pg_upgrade complains about not being able to find $libdir/plpython3 > when upgrading a 9.4 cluster that has both python2 and python3 used. No, that's not what the error message says: > Could not load library "$libdir/plpython3" > FATAL: Python major version mismatch in session > DETAIL: This session has previously used Python major version 2, and it is > now attempting to use Python major version 3. > HINT: Start a new session to use a different Python major version. This is a restriction we put in place because libpython2 and libpython3 don't coexist nicely in the same address space. Unfortunately, it makes it problematic to restore a dump that contains references to both python2 and python3 functions. It looks like pg_upgrade tries to load all libraries from functions in any database in the old cluster into a single session in the new cluster, which will fail in a scenario like this even if you keep python2 and python3 functions rigorously separated into distinct databases. I'm not sure if we could weaken that test enough to work. > I dropped the python2 database but still got the problem. You must still have at least one database that contains references to python2 (check pg_language to be sure). regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Request - repeat value of \pset title during \watch interations
Michael Paquier writes: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:36 AM, David G. Johnston > wrote: >> When executing a query using \watch in psql the first execution of the query >> includes "Title is [...]" when \pset title is in use. Subsequent executions >> do not. Once that first display goes off-screen the information in the >> title is no longer readily accessible. If using \watch for a long-running >> monitoring query it can be helpful to incorporate some context information >> into the title. > Yeah, this sounds like a good idea to show it at each iteration if the > title is set. Perhaps we should replace the "Watch every Ns" text by the user-given title if a title has been set? That would conserve screen space. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Request - repeat value of \pset title during \watch interations
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > Michael Paquier writes: > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:36 AM, David G. Johnston > > wrote: > >> When executing a query using \watch in psql the first execution of the > query > >> includes "Title is [...]" when \pset title is in use. Subsequent > executions > >> do not. Once that first display goes off-screen the information in the > >> title is no longer readily accessible. If using \watch for a > long-running > >> monitoring query it can be helpful to incorporate some context > information > >> into the title. > > > Yeah, this sounds like a good idea to show it at each iteration if the > > title is set. > > Perhaps we should replace the "Watch every Ns" text by the user-given > title if a title has been set? That would conserve screen space. > The extra line doesn't both me and given the length of the timestamp I suspect many titles would cause the combined line length to exceed terminal width and cause wrapping anyway. In my specific case it would though I am using an abnormally narrow width. David J.
Re: [GENERAL] Request - repeat value of \pset title during \watch interations
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Michael Paquier wrote: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:36 AM, David G. Johnston > wrote: > > When executing a query using \watch in psql the first execution of the > query > > includes "Title is [...]" when \pset title is in use. Subsequent > executions > > do not. Once that first display goes off-screen the information in the > > title is no longer readily accessible. If using \watch for a > long-running > > monitoring query it can be helpful to incorporate some context > information > > into the title. > > Yeah, this sounds like a good idea to show it at each iteration if the > title is set. I am not sure we would want to treat that as a bug fix > as nothing is broken, it looks more like a new feature. > > I would agree...but wouldn't personally argue against the bug-fix interpretation. Given the nature of watch, that it is used for human interaction, the odds of it being used in an automation environment - where a change in layout could have an impact - it highly unlikely. > Any suggestions for a better way to accomplish the goal? > > What I have been doing in such cases until now is updating the name of > the terminal tab to identify what was going on. > > Except I run my two monitor queries inside a tmux pane and so cannot directly give them names. I get the point and probably a window name would end up being sufficient. David J.
Re: [GENERAL] Request - repeat value of \pset title during \watch interations
"David G. Johnston" writes: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Tom Lane wrote: >> Perhaps we should replace the "Watch every Ns" text by the user-given >> title if a title has been set? That would conserve screen space. > âThe extra line doesn't both me and given the length of the timestamp I > suspect many titles would cause the combined line length to exceed terminal > width and cause wrapping anyway. In my specific case it would though I am > using an abnormally narrow width. You speak as though the title will be chosen without any regard for the context it's used in, which I rather doubt. Wouldn't people pick the title for a \watch query so that it fits? (In any case they could force the issue by including a \n in their title...) regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Request - repeat value of \pset title during \watch interations
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > "David G. Johnston" writes: > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > >> Perhaps we should replace the "Watch every Ns" text by the user-given > >> title if a title has been set? That would conserve screen space. > > > The extra line doesn't both me and given the length of the timestamp I > > suspect many titles would cause the combined line length to exceed > terminal > > width and cause wrapping anyway. In my specific case it would though I > am > > using an abnormally narrow width. > > You speak as though the title will be chosen without any regard for the > context it's used in, which I rather doubt. Wouldn't people pick the > title for a \watch query so that it fits? (In any case they could > force the issue by including a \n in their title...) > > True that. I don't have a strong opinion either way. Having a single, condensed, title line would be nice though using two in order to not be cryptic has its own appeal. David J.
[GENERAL] Unmet dependency Ubuntu 15.10
I am trying to install postgresql-9.5 on Ubuntu 15.10 but I am getting an unmet dependency. cat /etc/apt/sources.list.d/pgdg.list deb http://apt.postgresql.org/pub/repos/apt/ wily-pgdg main 4.2.0-23-generic #28-Ubuntu SMP ~/r/a/src> sudo apt-get install postgresql-9.5 Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not yet been created or been moved out of Incoming. The following information may help to resolve the situation: The following packages have unmet dependencies: postgresql-9.5 : Depends: postgresql-client-9.5 Depends: postgresql-common (>= 142~) but it is not going to be installed E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. ~/r/a/src> sudo apt-get install postgresql-common Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not yet been created or been moved out of Incoming. The following information may help to resolve the situation: The following packages have unmet dependencies: postgresql-common : Depends: postgresql-client-common (>= 172.pgdg15.10+1) but it is not going to be installed E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. ~/r/a/src> sudo apt-get install postgresql-client-common Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not yet been created or been moved out of Incoming. The following information may help to resolve the situation: The following packages have unmet dependencies: postgresql-client-common : Depends: pgdg-keyring but it is not installable E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. ~/r/a/src> sudo apt-get install pgdg-keyring Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Package pgdg-keyring is not available, but is referred to by another package. This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or is only available from another source E: Package 'pgdg-keyring' has no installation candidate
Re: [GENERAL] Unmet dependency Ubuntu 15.10
On 01/09/2016 01:15 PM, Scottix wrote: I am trying to install postgresql-9.5 on Ubuntu 15.10 but I am getting an unmet dependency. Believe that is fixed now: http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/CAG2W7jfm=rx1mG2-9uwPbBiBJ2Ag2kA1iRLp6=pkfvuqe7x...@mail.gmail.com -- Adrian Klaver adrian.kla...@aklaver.com -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Buford Tannen wrote: Regina Obe wrote: Josh informed me you guys are thinking about a CoC. Let me start off by saying that I don't think you need one and in fact having one may be dangerous. ... So please whatever you do, ... do not choose this one or anything that looks like it: http://contributor-covenant.org/ I'm seeing social bullies going at every project demanding they adopt this... I wonder if "...unacceptable behavior by participants include: The use of sexualized language or imagery..." includes a ban on the use of things like makeup, eyeliner, earrings, excessively revealing or otherwise sexually suggestive and provocative attire and accoutrements designed to accentuate biological features for attractiveness. Oh, and lipstick and died hair, too. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: Things to notice (was Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?, broken thread I hope)
Hi, On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 10:10:23PM +1300, Gavin Flower wrote: > The phrase "Mere Male" was title of a column I read in NZ Women's Weekly > that my mother bought when I was a teenager. That's nice. I still found it offensive enough in the context to think it worthy of note. (I'm not really one for umbrage-taking, but given the topic I thought it worth calling out.) > Note that even between England and the USA there is a culture gap. Indeed, between Canada and the US there's one, too (a gap that I appreciate even more now that I am marooned in New Hampshire). But I think you're missing my point, which is that when one is working on the Internet with an unknown selection of people from widely-differing cultures, one needs to be even more sensitive than usual to the possibility of creating a chilly environment. I seem to recall that Josh suggested at the start of this discussion that the lack of a CoC discourages some class of participants. One might wonder whether that is the class one wants, and that decision is certainly past my pay grade. All I was trying to note was that the current conversation about this topic itself may create the very kind of environment people are worried about. > So my world view might be bigger than yours! Indeed, it might. And I don't think I was suggesting it was bigger or smaller; there's a reason I elided the attribution, and the "you" in what I wrote was intended in the generic sense. I apologise in case that wasn't clear. > It is the perceived intention of what one says that is important, not what > one actually says! I think that is perhaps a false dichotomy. But I also think I have said enough on this topic, so I shall stop now. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@crankycanuck.ca -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
>ISTM that if we develop a code of conduct, it would need to be designed to > insulate the community and individuals within it from becoming targets of > legal action. "Mike said I was bad at postgres, it hurt my consulting and I > want to sue Joe for replying-all and upping the hit-count on google... " > --Scott I've given some more thought to this and come up with a draft Contributor Code of Conduct. My strategy is that rather than focusing on things like Harassment that we can't all agree on the definition of. Focus on more absolutes that if you violate are harassment or cause psychological stress. It is also clear, that we need to protect people in our community from looters, I would say we need to protect our own even more so than we need to make new people feel welcome. So here's my draft Contributor Code of Conduct (CCC) to try to achieve that. Like the open source technical community as a whole, our community is made up of a mixture of professionals and volunteers with vast differences of opinions and styles of communication. Our community is made up of people from many cultures and walks of life who have come together with the common goals of making a great piece of software and helping others use this software. We value contributions from everybody. By contributions we mean code, documentation, project outreach in form of setting up conferences or working groups, package maintenance, answering and asking questions in our forums which further our mission, and providing bug reports. If you have contributed to our project, then we consider you a member of our extended family and value your opinions and concerns very highly. We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value the opinions of others. This is because major contributors have already proved their desire to further our mission, and for newcomers, their intention has not yet been established. We want everyone entering our community willing to help out to feel welcomed. To maintain and encourage a welcoming environment we ask all people interacting with our community to follow these guidelines when in our public spaces. By public spaces we mean mailing lists, IRC channels, Code repositories, and reporting bug reports GUIDELINES 1) When in discussions keep focused on the topic being discussed. 2) Say helpful things, and if you feel you have nothing to say that furthers the discussion, say nothing. By helpful we mean for example: If someone asks a question, even if it's one that you think has an obvious answer, either provide an example or a link to the section of the manual that covers it. If you feel a person does not provide enough information for someone to help, point them to this link: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems 3) Do not switch the topic to yourself unless the topic happens to be about you. For example if someone is asking a question about replication, and the words master and slave come up in discussion, do not talk about the great master/slave sex you had last night. 4) Do not ask questions that are unrelated to the mission of our project. USE OF TRIGGER TERMS We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some past trauma for some people. While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma such changes would cause for the larger majority of people who are not as sensitive to the usage. As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more than we do of renaming old features. HANDLING ISSUES We understand that through no fault of anybody, a person may make a comment they consider harmless that others find very offensive or makes another feel small. As project maintainers we will monitor these and gently call people out on them even if they are a member of our maintainer group. By gentle call out, we mean something like "I think what X was trying to say was that you need to do this" or point them to this document and the specific bullet point you feel they violated. We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same in a kind and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and the person didn't mean harm by it, simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. If the person continues or they say something you feel is very offensive or degrading to another, tell a project maintainer preferably off-list and we will talk with the person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out if we determine behavior change is not possible. If anyone makes you feel uncomfortable please notify the project maintainer group at ... with the specific occurrence and evidence that made you feel this way. We do not tolerate those we feel are trying to derail our proj
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
> We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same in a > kind and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and the person > didn't mean harm by it, > > simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. If the person > continues or they say something you feel is very offensive or degrading to > another, > > tell a project maintainer preferably off-list and we will talk with the > person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out if we determine > behavior change is not possible. I am concerned about this particular wording as it implicitly assumes that the offended party is correct based on how they 'feel' and requires punishment of/change by the 'offender' regardless of the severity, or even validity of the claim. I don't think that is the intent, but that is how it reads (to me). -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] Code of Conduct
Maybe Trump should write this
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Brian, >> We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same >> in a kind and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and >> the person didn't mean harm by it, >> >> simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. If the person >> continues or they say something you feel is very offensive or >> degrading to another, > >> tell a project maintainer preferably off-list and we will talk with >> the person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out if we >> determine behavior change is not possible. > I am concerned about this particular wording as it implicitly assumes that > the offended party is correct based on how they 'feel' and requires > punishment of/change by the 'offender' regardless of the severity, or even > validity of the claim. I don't think that is the intent, but that is how it > reads (to me). Good point. Rereading the last part, sounds like the victim is always right and is actually not needed since the next paragraph addresses it. So how is this: --- We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same in a kind and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and the person didn't mean harm by it, simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. If anyone makes you feel uncomfortable and you feel they are purposely antagonistic please notify the project maintainer group at ... with the specific occurrence and evidence that made you feel this way. We will judge if your complaints are valid and if we deem they are valid we will talk with the person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out if we determine behavior change is not possible. --- Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
On 01/11/2016 10:16 AM, Bret Stern wrote: Maybe Trump should write this Unfortunately Trump would likely not follow the CoC. Thank you for the troll. JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Hello, A lot of good discussion has happened on this thread and as a whole I think it has been determined that if done correctly, a CoC would not be a bad idea. Of course we need to write one. A CoC is about providing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. A CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipients response and usually because the recipient is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://the.postgres.company/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. If your social views are from the Silicon Valley or The Bay, please leave them there. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Josh, If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym. I'm going to say something very sensitive here, so don't think I am joking. When I was 5 I was raped by a next door neighbor. Everytime I here people talk about Cocs and how silencing they are I think about that. Thanks, Regina -Original Message- From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:j...@commandprompt.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 2:00 PM To: Regina Obe ; 'Brian Dunavant' Cc: 'Scott Mead' ; 'Adrian Klaver' ; 'Gavin Flower' ; 'PostgreSQL General' Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? Hello, A lot of good discussion has happened on this thread and as a whole I think it has been determined that if done correctly, a CoC would not be a bad idea. Of course we need to write one. A CoC is about providing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. A CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipients response and usually because the recipient is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://the.postgres.company/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. If your social views are from the Silicon Valley or The Bay, please leave them there. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:39:12PM -0500, Regina Obe wrote: > HANDLING ISSUES ... > If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make > demands for change, we will try to tell you that kindly and > request you to change or leave. May I kindly ask for a bit more explanation on this one ? It seems a bit narrow ? Thanks, Karsten Hilbert -- GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On 01/11/2016 11:10 AM, Regina Obe wrote: Josh, If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym. I'm going to say something very sensitive here, so don't think I am joking. When I was 5 I was raped by a next door neighbor. Everytime I here people talk about Cocs and how silencing they are I think about that. Regina, Although I can appreciate your sensitivity to the terminology based on your experience (and I am very sorry to read about that), I don't think it is reasonable to change from an Industry Standard acronym on that basis. Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://the.postgres.company/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. If your social views are from the Silicon Valley or The Bay, please leave them there. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
> Regina, > Although I can appreciate your sensitivity to the terminology based on your > experience (and I am very sorry to read about that), I don't think it is > reasonable to change from an Industry Standard acronym on that basis. > Sincerely, > JD Fair enough. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] Bug Tracker
There was a side thread in the CoC thread about expanding the dev community and making it easier for new devs to get involved. I would think that a bug tracker, especially one where bugs can be labeled as "Newbie Friendly" could go a long way towards that goal. Additionally, a proper bug tracker would make it easier for future users to find resolutions to issues. Are there any technical reasons that the project doesn't use a bug tracker (beyond pgsql-bugs)? Jim
Re: [GENERAL] Bug Tracker
On 01/11/2016 11:18 AM, James Keener wrote: There was a side thread in the CoC thread about expanding the dev community and making it easier for new devs to get involved. I would think that a bug tracker, especially one where bugs can be labeled as "Newbie Friendly" could go a long way towards that goal. Additionally, a proper bug tracker would make it easier for future users to find resolutions to issues. Are there any technical reasons that the project doesn't use a bug tracker (beyond pgsql-bugs)? on -hackers there is on an ongoing thread about this [1] but the long and short is a: It is a culture issue. Warning, the thread has been going on for almost 4 months. JD 1. http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/CAG9n48_CoXd-8+nU6ri=Ht5pUD47JALyfCp=ztmcdoycuvh...@mail.gmail.com Jim -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://the.postgres.company/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. If your social views are from the Silicon Valley or The Bay, please leave them there. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] New hacker item posted
Anyone looking to get their feet wet in the backend code, please take a look at http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/568f03ef.4070...@bluetreble.com. -- Jim Nasby, Data Architect, Blue Treble Consulting, Austin TX Experts in Analytics, Data Architecture and PostgreSQL Data in Trouble? Get it in Treble! http://BlueTreble.com -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
Gosh, I've got a lot of love for CoCs; I've heard great things, really good things, some things, about CoCs, that some of them have been really helping in a yuge way with some fantastic projects. Sometimes some people, a lot of people, have said that I could write a CoC, and you know, I think they're right, because my CoC is pretty damn strong, because I believe my CoC could Make Postgres Great Again. On 11 January 2016 at 18:32, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On 01/11/2016 10:16 AM, Bret Stern wrote: >> >> Maybe Trump should write this > > > Unfortunately Trump would likely not follow the CoC. > > Thank you for the troll. > > JD > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 > PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. > Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't > control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL]
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:39:12PM -0500, Regina Obe wrote: >> HANDLING ISSUES >... >> If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make >> demands for change, we will try to tell you that kindly and >> request you to change or leave. > May I kindly ask for a bit more explanation on this one ? > It seems a bit narrow ? > Thanks, > Karsten Hilbert > -- > GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net > E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 I'm not sure the best way to word this one. I agree it needs more clarity. The reason I put it in there is because of this: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/942 You see that guy strand. From the way he talked, I thought he was a core member of Opal and had contributed a lot. On further inspection I discovered his only contribution was the contributor code of conduct. So the purpose is to try to prevent people who don't care about our project from telling us how to run our project. Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Bug Tracker
"Joshua D. Drake" writes: > On 01/11/2016 11:18 AM, James Keener wrote: >> Are there any technical reasons that the project doesn't use a bug >> tracker (beyond pgsql-bugs)? > on -hackers there is on an ongoing thread about this [1] but the long > and short is a: It is a culture issue. Warning, the thread has been > going on for almost 4 months. 4 months? More like fifteen years. We actually *had* a bug tracker, for a short while long ago, and it was an unmitigated failure (search for "Keystone" in the archives, from mid-1999). The reason the longtime hackers are suspicious of such proposals is it's not clear how to avoid that fate the next time around. Anything we do has to adapt itself to existing community habits, a lot more than vice versa, or it will go down the tubes as well. My own postmortem on that attempt is here: http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/9072.966741...@sss.pgh.pa.us and the surrounding thread is well worth reading as well. Doesn't really seem like the discussion has moved much since 2000 :-( regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Sorry screwed up sending this email the first time. Trying again: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:39:12PM -0500, Regina Obe wrote: >> HANDLING ISSUES >... >> If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make >> demands for change, we will try to tell you that kindly and >> request you to change or leave. > May I kindly ask for a bit more explanation on this one ? > It seems a bit narrow ? > Thanks, > Karsten Hilbert > -- > GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net > E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 Karsten, I'm not sure the best way to word this one. I agree it needs more clarity. The reason I put it in there is because of this: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/942 You see that guy strand. From the way he talked, I thought he was a core member of Opal and had contributed a lot. On further inspection I discovered his only contribution was the contributor code of conduct. So the purpose is to try to prevent people who don't care about our project from telling us how to run our project. Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
Geoff, > Gosh, I've got a lot of love for CoCs; I've heard great things, really good > things, some things, about CoCs, that some of them have been really helping > in a yuge way with some fantastic projects. > Sometimes some people, a lot of people, have said that I could write a CoC, > and you know, I think they're right, because my CoC is pretty damn strong, > because I believe my CoC could Make Postgres Great Again. While this is funny to some, I don't think it adds value to this conversation. I would consider it a derailment and not very helpful. If I had a Coc to point at, I would point at the section I feel you are violating. Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Bug Tracker
On 01/11/2016 12:07 PM, Tom Lane wrote: "Joshua D. Drake" writes: On 01/11/2016 11:18 AM, James Keener wrote: Are there any technical reasons that the project doesn't use a bug tracker (beyond pgsql-bugs)? on -hackers there is on an ongoing thread about this [1] but the long and short is a: It is a culture issue. Warning, the thread has been going on for almost 4 months. 4 months? More like fifteen years. The thread referenced is 4 months but you are absolutely correct :) Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
On 11 January 2016 at 20:13, Regina Obe wrote: > While this is funny to some, I don't think it adds value to this > conversation. I would consider it a derailment and not very helpful. > > If I had a Coc to point at, I would point at the section I feel you are > violating. If there were a CoC that would explicitly disallow occasional lighthearted humour to a non-development list that is intended to offend no-one then I would most definitely remove myself from such a project. Some may consider that a positive thing, but I would like to think that in the main I have at least tried to help in the small ways that I could. Your post, on the other hand, is clearly intended to censure a fellow contributor to the list, which I find far more offensive. I guess that's the problem with CoCs, because to some people what's reasonable behaviour is utterly unacceptable to others. For what it's worth, I would consider my post to be no less on topic for postgres-general than the original topic. Even notwithstanding that I think it would be a complete waste of time and resources I don't consider this the correct place to hold such a conversation: there is a -docs list, after all. But since I'm able to simply ignore and delete those posts that don't interest me, I didn't really see any point in saying anything. Geoff -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
"Regina Obe" writes: > Sorry screwed up sending this email the first time. Trying again: >> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:39:12PM -0500, Regina Obe wrote: >>> If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make >>> demands for change, we will try to tell you that kindly and >>> request you to change or leave. >> May I kindly ask for a bit more explanation on this one ? > I'm not sure the best way to word this one. I agree it needs more > clarity. The reason I put it in there is because of this: > https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/942 > You see that guy strand. From the way he talked, I thought he was a core > member of Opal and had contributed a lot. > On further inspection I discovered his only contribution was the > contributor code of conduct. > So the purpose is to try to prevent people who don't care about our > project from telling us how to run our project. Hmm. I'm not sure that telling us that should amount to an offense; such a person might even have a good idea from time to time. Now, if the person is rude about it, that would be an offense, but that should already be covered under other sections of the CoC no? Another possibly offensive aspect of the example you're describing is someone trying to pass themselves off as a major contributor when they're not. But I hesitate to try to draw guidelines for that either. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
> Hmm. I'm not sure that telling us that should amount to an offense; such a person might even have a good idea from time to time. > Now, if the person is rude about it, that would be an offense, but that should already be covered under other sections of the CoC no? > Another possibly offensive aspect of the example you're describing is someone trying to pass themselves off as a major contributor when they're not. But I hesitate to try to draw guidelines for that either. > regards, tom lane Tom, How would you feel about the original thread that started this. https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 I would dismiss her as a troll and kindly say, don't tell us who we can have and who we can't. Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
Geoff, > If there were a CoC that would explicitly disallow occasional lighthearted > humour to a non-development list that is intended to offend no-one then I > would most definitely remove myself from such a project. > Some may consider that a positive thing, but I would like to think that in > the main I have at least tried to help in the small ways that I could. > Your post, on the other hand, is clearly intended to censure a fellow > contributor to the list, which I find far more offensive. I guess that's the > problem with CoCs, because to some people what's reasonable behaviour is > utterly unacceptable to others. > For what it's worth, I would consider my post to be no less on topic for > postgres-general than the original topic. Even notwithstanding that I think > it would be a complete waste of time and resources I don't consider this the > correct place to hold such a conversation: > there is a -docs list, after all. But since I'm able to simply ignore and > delete those posts that don't interest me, I didn't really see any point in > saying anything. > Geoff The Coc allows light-hearted humor, I'm so disappointed you didn't get my clever punning in my last email. I thought it was a treasure. Now while what you said is fine for this list, it's questionable it adds value to this discussion. On further observation, I realize it can be used as a testcase to test the strength of this Coc. So I stand corrected this is quite relevant and useful to this discussion. In fact, I think we should package all these and use them in regression tests for this Coc. Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
On 11 January 2016 at 21:11, Regina Obe wrote: > The Coc allows light-hearted humor, I'm so disappointed you didn't get my > clever punning in my last email. I thought it was a treasure. Hah! The irony is I had deliberately avoided making the obvious gag because I've been called out previously for using misogynistic language on the lists. Apologies for missing your point :) Geoff -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
On 1/11/2016 1:11 PM, Regina Obe wrote: On further observation, I realize it can be used as a testcase to test the strength of this Coc. So I stand corrected this is quite relevant and useful to this discussion. In fact, I think we should package all these and use them in regression tests for this Coc. gee, we better get a lawyer to make sure all the language in the CoC is ironclad and comprehensive. /me runs screaming into the distance. -- john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
On 01/11/2016 01:20 PM, John R Pierce wrote: On 1/11/2016 1:11 PM, Regina Obe wrote: On further observation, I realize it can be used as a testcase to test the strength of this Coc. So I stand corrected this is quite relevant and useful to this discussion. In fact, I think we should package all these and use them in regression tests for this Coc. gee, we better get a lawyer to make sure all the language in the CoC is ironclad and comprehensive. The sad part is that this is a solved issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule /me runs screaming into the distance. I'm right behind you. -- Adrian Klaver adrian.kla...@aklaver.com -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Regina Obe wrote: > How would you feel about the original thread that started this. > > https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 I'm not interested in opal, and don't have time to read a thread with (when I looked) 374 messages, but if the gist of it is that they have a code of conduct that attempts to control the speech or actions of contributors outside of the venue of the lists or events of the project, count me as -1, regardless of how offensive I might find said speech or actions. -- Kevin Grittner EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Kevin Grittner wrote: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Regina Obe wrote: > > > How would you feel about the original thread that started this. > > > > https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 > > I'm not interested in opal, and don't have time to read a thread > with (when I looked) 374 messages, but if the gist of it is that > they have a code of conduct that attempts to control the speech or > actions of contributors outside of the venue of the lists or events > of the project, count me as -1, regardless of how offensive I might > find said speech or actions. I didn't look at this one either, but I looked at the "contributor covenant" Regina linked to earlier (as an example of what not to do) and was shocked to see that any random outsider can *demand* a project admin to take action on harassment accusations, or have *the admin* be removed from the project. I found that totally backwards and I'd certainly be against anything that contains such language. -- Álvaro Herrerahttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Slow Query - PostgreSQL 9.2
On 1/11/16, Saulo Merlo wrote: > NEW QUERY: > > SELECT > <> > WHERE f.nfs_file_path IS NULL > AND ((transaction_timestamp() AT TIME ZONE \'UTC\') > (f.st_mtime+ \'' . > $fileMigrationMonthAge . ' months\' :: INTERVAL)) LIMIT 100; > > From: smerl...@outlook.com > To: clavadetsc...@swisspug.org; vitaly.buro...@gmail.com > CC: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Slow Query - PostgreSQL 9.2 > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 20:02:54 + >> Still getting a slw one.. >> Any thoughts? >> >> My hypothesis is; the 1 clause that will always be used is in the WHERE >> statement below. This can either be nfs_file_path or nfs_migration_date >> (both new columns). Adding an index on either of these columns and using >> them in the clause should improve things greatly. >> >> How could I do that? >> Lucas >> >> "Limit (cost=1557.00..4743.08 rows=1 width=186) (actual time=0.051..0.051 >> rows=0 loops=1)" >> <> >> "Total runtime: 1.395 ms" Firstly, 1.4ms is not bad, I don't know how to improve your query. Secondly, why do you leave second condition in the WHERE clause as it was in your first letter? Such version of the condition can't use index because of absence of it. It's impossible to create index with column "(f.st_mtime+ \'' . $fileMigrationMonthAge . ' months\' :: INTERVAL)". You have to change the condition the way where one part of a condition at an optimization part can be simplified to a constant and the other part of the condition represents a column of an existent index (as it was written in my first answer). -- Best regards, Vitaly Burovoy -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
I don't know about others. But this whole thread has completely gone off the original track. With so many splinter topics. It has no hope of ever completing with any kind of resolution satisfying even 10% of contributors. Can be please stick to the core original topics? Whether we agree with them or not doesn't matter but let's have some direction and closure so we can all move on and new ideas can be formed and be discussed. Thank you all. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On 01/11/2016 01:36 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Kevin Grittner wrote: On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Regina Obe wrote: How would you feel about the original thread that started this. https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 I'm not interested in opal, and don't have time to read a thread with (when I looked) 374 messages, but if the gist of it is that they have a code of conduct that attempts to control the speech or actions of contributors outside of the venue of the lists or events of the project, count me as -1, regardless of how offensive I might find said speech or actions. I didn't look at this one either, but I looked at the "contributor covenant" Regina linked to earlier (as an example of what not to do) and was shocked to see that any random outsider can *demand* a project admin to take action on harassment accusations, or have *the admin* be removed from the project. I found that totally backwards and I'd certainly be against anything that contains such language. You would never get me on board with that either. To iterate my thoughts around a CoC are exactly this: """ A CoC is about providing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. A CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipients response and usually because the recipient is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. """ -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] Intel Skylake hardware failures
This might interest some members. It has been announced by Intel's latest Skylake CPU has serious bug which hangs applications with complex threading which postgresql could *potentially* fall into. I don't know if anyone has experienced this or not. "Hello All, Intel has identified an issue that potentially affects the 6th Gen Intel® Core™ family of products. This issue only occurs under certain complex workload conditions, like those that may be encountered when running applications like Prime95. In those cases, the processor may hang or cause unpredictable system behavior. Intel has identified and released a fix and is working with external business partners to get the fix deployed through BIOS." https://communities.intel.com/thread/96157?start=15&tstart=0 Good luck -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:42 PM, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) wrote: Five days (and I don't know how many posts) ago, there was this: http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/20160106184818.gt21...@crankycanuck.ca Which said in part: > The other thing I note is that the IETF got > most of these documents because someone thought the problem was > important enough to write a draft proposal first. As I said in a > recent IETF plenary, the organization works partly because at the IETF > you don't need anyone's permission to try something; you don't even > need forgiveness. The worst that can happen is that people reject the > proposal. It always seemed to me that the Postgres project worked in > a similar way, so I'd encourage those who think there is a problem to > be solved to make a scratch proposal and see whether it flies. It's > always easier to discuss a concrete proposal than to try to figure out > whether something is a good idea in the abstract. I'm going to give this a belated +1, and ignore any further posts on this thread. If someone wants to take the step of posting a concrete proposal, please start a new thread with a different subject line. -- Kevin Grittner EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
Hello, Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project: PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC): 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee. 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own. 6. The CoC is not about Social Justice. Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
"Regina Obe" writes: > How would you feel about the original thread that started this. > https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 > I would dismiss her as a troll and kindly say, don't tell us who we can have > and who we can't. Hm ... that thread makes me uncomfortable, because I can see both points of view. I really don't care for the idea that "you should throw this longtime contributor off your project because he espoused some not- politically-correct views in an unrelated forum". On the other hand, the argument that the person's actions might drive away potential community members isn't without merit. Also, does it really matter whether the complaint comes from someone who's in the community already, or not? It's going to be equally messy either way. Unless you choose to ignore the complaint simply because a non-community-member made it, which seems to me to be a bad idea. A lot of the argument for having a CoC seems to be to help draw new people in, and that approach won't do that. This might be in the category of "hard cases make bad law". Probably an ideal outcome for the situation described there would have been for the contributor to recognize that his actions didn't reflect well on the community, and to *voluntarily* stop doing that. Or at least, stop posting divisive views from an account explicitly claiming a close relationship to the opal community. But should the community have tried to force him to stop? Dunno, but I doubt it would have ended well if they had. Moving on from the substance of the complaint, neither side of that argument gets any points from me for being civil about how they went about discussing it. The complainant seems to have started out with a public call for removal from the project, which is about as good a way as I can think of for ensuring that the discussion will not be pleasant or productive. (Maybe there were some private contacts beforehand, but I don't see any evidence of that; not that I had the patience to read the entire thread.) And the responses were not on any higher level; which is unsurprising maybe, but they certainly did nothing to defuse the situation. In my admittedly-limited experience with dealing with such problems, it's a lot easier to achieve positive results if you can discuss issues in private, before people's positions harden. In short, I wouldn't characterize that complainant as "a troll" for the substance of her complaint, but maybe so for the way in which she went about making it. If we're to have a CoC, I'd really like it (and any associated enforcement mechanism) to be designed to discourage this sort of let's-begin-with-public-attacks approach to problem resolution. How we get to that exactly, I don't know. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] WIP: CoC
Hello, Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project: PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC): 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee. 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own. 6. The CoC is not about Social Justice. Sincerely, JD P.S. I sent this to the old thread first, please ignore that one and work with this one. -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
On 01/11/2016 02:00 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Hello, Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project: PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC): 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. Well that renders this thread: http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/4579835f.11355.1de...@rod.iol.ie out of bounds and I thought it was quite productive. 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee. 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own. 6. The CoC is not about Social Justice. Sincerely, JD -- Adrian Klaver adrian.kla...@aklaver.com -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Kevin Grittner writes: > I'm going to give this a belated +1, and ignore any further posts on > this thread. > If someone wants to take the step of posting a concrete proposal, > please start a new thread with a different subject line. I thought we were already at that point; see Regina Obe's posts. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
On 01/11/2016 02:08 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote: On 01/11/2016 02:00 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Hello, Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project: PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC): 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. Well that renders this thread: http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/4579835f.11355.1de...@rod.iol.ie out of bounds and I thought it was quite productive. No it doesn't. That thread was clearly a technical question based on a specific gender problem domain. That is perfectly within bounds. That said there is an obvious typo in #3: 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. We could add the word inappropriate (I thought negative but that doesn't work either because positive comments can be just as bad). JD P.S. please use new thread WIP: CoC -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Regina Obe wrote: > > If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym. > Notwithstanding the most regrettable childhood trauma, this request is > exactly the kind of ridiculousness that the Political Correctness nonsense > associated with CoCs that we should be worried about in the aftermath of > proposed adoption. > Complaining that the acronym "CoC" is anything remotely like the thing the > work "cock" means is, well, cockamamie > It's like someone becoming upset over the work "niggardly" as a racist > epithet. In fact that word and the one you are thinking of are completely > unrelated: entirely different etymology. Nothing in common except, on the one > hand, as you imagine the acronym might be pronounced, and on the other > because there are six similar letters. Exactly. That's why I added that section: --- USE OF TRIGGER TERMS We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some past trauma for some people. While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as sensitive to the usage. As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more than we do of renaming old features. - First of all you have no proof whether I was raped or not, so you don't know if I'm just playing the "Poor woman was raped, give her a break" card or if my sad luck story is genuine. In the end it's irrelevant, because as Josh apologetically explained to me - Coc is standard in our vernacular so would cause more damage to others if we change it. I have to learn to cope with my suffering when someone says Coc and it's not your problem that I was raped and I have traumatic memories everytime I hear someone say "We have a Coc. I think that should make you feel safer." Josh did the right thing. If we had this Coc -- Josh could just point at this section and say "I feel your pain, but according to our Code of Conduct, we can't change it." Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
Thanks Joshua for creating this list. Great starting point and hopefully points to focus on to conclude this thread. Here are my humble comments on them. I think point two is already covered by respecting other people's opinion. At times specially over email ,where we don't see others reactions , people can unintentionally be more confrontational than normal. Therefore it is not just the recipient. Perhaps Point 3 should read "free from". Thanks again Joshua. Best Regards Farjad -Original Message- From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:j...@commandprompt.com] Sent: 11 January 2016 22:00 To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Kevin Grittner'; 'Regina Obe' Cc: 'Tom Lane'; 'Karsten Hilbert'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC) Hello, Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project: PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC): 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee. 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own. 6. The CoC is not about Social Justice. Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Kevin Grittner writes: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Regina Obe wrote: >> How would you feel about the original thread that started this. >> https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 > I'm not interested in opal, and don't have time to read a thread > with (when I looked) 374 messages, but if the gist of it is that > they have a code of conduct that attempts to control the speech or > actions of contributors outside of the venue of the lists or events > of the project, count me as -1, regardless of how offensive I might > find said speech or actions. FWIW, I did read some of that thread, and the point that seemed to me to possibly bring that situation within reach of a CoC was that the contributor was posting offensive-to-some views from an account that explicitly identified him as a core opal contributor. As such, it wasn't totally unreasonable to see him as representing the project in those statements. (Note: I have not verified the facts of the matter, but this is what was alleged in the thread.) regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 02:00:22PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free > comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical > appearance, body size or race. ... for of _off-topic_ comments related to ... Since I am using PostgreSQL for storing Electronic Medical Record data I fear I will need to be able to discuss schema layout related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, and race. Karsten Hilbert -- GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free > comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical > appearance, body size or race. I think you meant "free OF comments". However it still picks a few special classes of complaint, some of which cause ambiguity such as 'gender'. Does that mean I can't use "he/she" pronouns? It also implies that i'm allowed to criticize people in other ways, say, their political affiliation or country. Rather than list a bunch of "no no" perhaps something like: "3) A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic." -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. why not > 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of ad hominem. (Tip: Ask your self "Would I make this same comment if my best friend or parent stated what I was replying to" if you're unsure.) The tip being optional, of course :-p I don't see why we need to limit comments like in the original: that's not the point! The point is that people shouldn't be attacked! Moreover, > 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. is very harsh. It definitely needs to be rephrased or built on. What is the point of this, by the way? If we state that personal attacks are unbecoming of a member of this group, then does it matter if I'm offended when someone says we should have a table that lacks 1-M 1-F constraints for marriage? It's not an attack and trying to clarify the differences between being offended because of an attack on me or just in general might make things too awkward to write. Jim On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 5:15 PM, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) < farjad.fa...@checknetworks.com> wrote: > > Thanks Joshua for creating this list. Great starting point and hopefully > points to focus on to conclude this thread. > > Here are my humble comments on them. > > I think point two is already covered by respecting other people's opinion. > At times specially over email ,where we don't see others reactions , people > can unintentionally be more confrontational than normal. Therefore it is > not just the recipient. > > Perhaps Point 3 should read "free from". > > Thanks again Joshua. > > Best Regards > > > Farjad > > > -Original Message- > From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:j...@commandprompt.com] > Sent: 11 January 2016 22:00 > To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Kevin Grittner'; 'Regina Obe' > Cc: 'Tom Lane'; 'Karsten Hilbert'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC) > > Hello, > > Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project: > > PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC): > > 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a > safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is > willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative > way. > > 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is > purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more > interested in being a victim than moving forward. > > 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free > comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical > appearance, body size or race. > > 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC > etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the > CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee. > > 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your > private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own. > > 6. The CoC is not about Social Justice. > > > Sincerely, > > JD > > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 > PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. > Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control > your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. > > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general >
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
Adrian Klaver wrote: > On 01/11/2016 02:00 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free > >comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical > >appearance, body size or race. > > Well that renders this thread: > > http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/4579835f.11355.1de...@rod.iol.ie > > out of bounds and I thought it was quite productive. How about this one https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/20150825203743.2090.73356%40wrigleys.postgresql.org -- Álvaro Herrerahttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
On 01/11/2016 02:22 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote: 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. I think you meant "free OF comments". I did. However it still picks a few special classes of complaint, some of which cause ambiguity such as 'gender'. Does that mean I can't use "he/she" pronouns? It also implies that i'm allowed to criticize people in other ways, say, their political affiliation or country. Rather than list a bunch of "no no" perhaps something like: "3) A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic." First, I want to make sure we don't get too far into the weeds here. I think your example is a good one but I do think we need examples so perhaps: A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. ??? Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
ALL: Please move comments to the new thread: WIP: CoC -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
(Sorry for the dup post. I felt having a clean thread without having to cross-reference was worth the minor faux pas.) > 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. why not > 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of ad hominem. I don't see why we need to limit comments like in the original: that's not the point! The point is that people shouldn't be attacked! Moreover, > 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. is very harsh. It definitely needs to be rephrased or built on. What is the point of this, by the way? If we state that personal attacks are unbecoming of a member of this group, then does it matter if I'm offended when someone says we should have a table that lacks 1-M 1-F constraints for marriage? It's not an attack and trying to clarify the differences between being offended because of an attack on me or just in general might make things too awkward to write. Jim On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On 01/11/2016 02:22 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote: > >> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free >>> comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical >>> appearance, body size or race. >>> >> >> I think you meant "free OF comments". >> > > I did. > > >> However it still picks a few special classes of complaint, some of >> which cause ambiguity such as 'gender'. Does that mean I can't use >> "he/she" pronouns? It also implies that i'm allowed to criticize >> people in other ways, say, their political affiliation or country. >> Rather than list a bunch of "no no" perhaps something like: >> >> "3) A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is >> free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a >> community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic." >> >> > First, I want to make sure we don't get too far into the weeds here. > > I think your example is a good one but I do think we need examples so > perhaps: > > A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free > of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual > orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. > > ??? > > Sincerely, > > JD > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 > PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. > Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't > control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general >
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > Kevin Grittner writes: >> If someone wants to take the step of posting a concrete proposal, >> please start a new thread with a different subject line. > > I thought we were already at that point; see Regina Obe's posts. Oh, are you referring to this:? http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/001201d14c96$fc26ed70$f474c850$@pcorp.us For some reason that shows up as a quote of a quote in my gmail, so I skipped over it without noticing it. Apologies. Even after finding it, formatting is mangled, and I see an amendment was just posted. Can we get this into a more readable format somehow, where changes can be reflected without sequentially scanning the thread? -- Kevin Grittner EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Kevin Grittner writes: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Tom Lane wrote: >> I thought we were already at that point; see Regina Obe's posts. > Oh, are you referring to this:? > http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/001201d14c96$fc26ed70$f474c850$@pcorp.us > For some reason that shows up as a quote of a quote in my gmail, so > I skipped over it without noticing it. Apologies. > Even after finding it, formatting is mangled, and I see an > amendment was just posted. Can we get this into a more readable > format somehow, where changes can be reflected without sequentially > scanning the thread? Also, since JD already took Kevin's advice to start a new thread, Regina please post your latest into that thread not this one. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
On 12/01/16 11:21, Karsten Hilbert wrote: On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 02:00:22PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. ... for of _off-topic_ comments related to ... Since I am using PostgreSQL for storing Electronic Medical Record data I fear I will need to be able to discuss schema layout related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, and race. Karsten Hilbert And what about people who want to construct a database to help survivors of sexual abuse, and/or doing research into sexual abuse? -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
Dear all, Please let's not be pedantic and expect absolute legalistic perfection in the wordings that has been put forward. No doubt we all understand the spirit and the purpose of the wording. Which is when we are consulting in the community we are not to here to discuss other people's gender, sexuality etc. Joshua can I put forward that two further points should be considered for possible inclusion. One is prejudices towards one's own religious persuasion and secondly age related should not be part of discussions or reasoning. We are effectively here to focus on helping each other and improving the overall functioning of postgresql etc in a very practical manner. Please let's move on. Best Regards -Original Message- From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Karsten Hilbert Sent: 11 January 2016 22:21 To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC) On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 02:00:22PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is > free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, > physical appearance, body size or race. ... for of _off-topic_ comments related to ... Since I am using PostgreSQL for storing Electronic Medical Record data I fear I will need to be able to discuss schema layout related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, and race. Karsten Hilbert -- GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD 4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346 -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
>> "3) A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is >> free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a >> community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic." >> > A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free > of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, > disability, physical appearance, body size or race. Between these two I still prefer my wording here because it encompasses all personal attacks regardless of topic or type and avoids hot-button words that distract from the point and can be used for lawyering. It also emphasizes the desired behavior instead, that criticism should be about the technical merit of the topic. "Don't be a jerk, and stick to the code." Maybe even rewording it to be a positive instead of a negative would improve it further. "A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is one that focuses on the technical merit of ideas and solutions rather than on the person behind them." -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
On 01/11/2016 02:30 PM, James Keener wrote: (Sorry for the dup post. I felt having a clean thread without having to cross-reference was worth the minor faux pas.) 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. why not 3.A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of ad hominem. I still think we need the examples which is why I sent this a few minutes ago: """ A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. """ Moreover, 2. The CoC is not about being offended.The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. is very harsh. So is life. We aren't here to wipe butts and change a diaper. However, yes I do agree that it is harsh. The point is really in relation to #6, the CoC is not about Social Justice. There are people in this community, people I know personally who will abuse this CoC if it is not exceedingly clear that their ability to be offended is not relevant. Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
On 01/11/2016 02:27 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: On 01/11/2016 02:22 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote: 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. I think you meant "free OF comments". I did. However it still picks a few special classes of complaint, some of which cause ambiguity such as 'gender'. Does that mean I can't use "he/she" pronouns? It also implies that i'm allowed to criticize people in other ways, say, their political affiliation or country. Rather than list a bunch of "no no" perhaps something like: "3) A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic." First, I want to make sure we don't get too far into the weeds here. That is exactly where this is going to go. From a previous example given as something to emulate: http://couchdb.apache.org/conduct.html Diversity Statement " ... No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. Though no list can hope to be comprehensive, we explicitly honour diversity in: age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression, language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, subculture and technical ability. ..." You start down this path and you create more and more classifications and explanations of interactions between classifications, until even the lawyers beg for mercy. In the end it either turns into a mine field of unreasonable expectations or folks realize that what they really want can be encapsulated in, 'Be nice'. I think your example is a good one but I do think we need examples so perhaps: A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. ??? Per your previous post: "We could add the word inappropriate.." So who decides what is appropriate or for that matter safe or respectful? Or do we resort to the Justice Stewart test, to paraphrase, '"I know it when I see it, and this is not it". In which case we are back to the eye of the beholder. Sincerely, JD -- Adrian Klaver adrian.kla...@aklaver.com -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
On 01/11/2016 02:41 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote: "3) A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic." A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. Between these two I still prefer my wording here because it encompasses all personal attacks regardless of topic or type and avoids hot-button words that distract from the point and can be used for lawyering. It also emphasizes the desired behavior instead, that criticism should be about the technical merit of the topic. "Don't be a jerk, and stick to the code." Maybe even rewording it to be a positive instead of a negative would improve it further. "A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is one that focuses on the technical merit of ideas and solutions rather than on the person behind them." How about we meet in the middle: A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or personal attacks. -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
> So is life. We aren't here to wipe butts and change a diaper. But the original isn't constructive of what to do. If I am attacked personally I will feel offended, the point is what I do about it. Whining about bring offended vs bringing it up and saying that it is not acceptable behaviour are very different. Worse, the original is nothing more than victim blaming. Even worse, it's useless as not feeling offence isn't what this is about. What to do when you feel offended is. > A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race I prefer my or the siblings more positive wording than an explicit negative of the types of personal attacks we don't like. We don't want any personal attacks! Jim On January 11, 2016 5:44:56 PM EST, "Joshua D. Drake" wrote: >On 01/11/2016 02:30 PM, James Keener wrote: >> (Sorry for the dup post. I felt having a clean thread without having >to >> cross-reference was worth the minor faux pas.) >> >>>3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is >free >> of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, >physical >> appearance, body size or race. >> >> why not >> >>> 3.A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is >free >> of ad hominem. > >I still think we need the examples which is why I sent this a few >minutes ago: > >""" A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is >free >of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual >orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race. """ > > >> Moreover, >> >>>2. The CoC is not about being offended.The act of being offended is >> purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is >more >> interested in being a victim than moving forward. >> >> is very harsh. > >So is life. We aren't here to wipe butts and change a diaper. However, >yes I do agree that it is harsh. The point is really in relation to #6, > >the CoC is not about Social Justice. > >There are people in this community, people I know personally who will >abuse this CoC if it is not exceedingly clear that their ability to be >offended is not relevant. > >Sincerely, > >JD > > > >-- >Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 >PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. >Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't >control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
"Joshua D. Drake" writes: > How about we meet in the middle: > A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free > of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual > orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or > personal attacks. That's not really meeting in the middle: it still specifies exactly one set of disapproved topics. Might be OK if it read like "... personal comments, for example ones related to gender, ..." regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a > recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in > being a victim than moving forward. Here is my latest version. Let me know if I should throw in a github repo so it's easier to read or if you have other plans for a Coc. - Like the open source technical community as a whole, our community is made up of a mixture of professionals and volunteers with vast differences of opinions and styles of communication. Our community is made up of people from many cultures and walks of life who have come together with the common goals of making a great piece of software and helping others use this software. We value contributions from everybody. By contributions we mean code, documentation, project outreach in form of setting up conferences or working groups, package maintenance, answering and asking questions in our forums which further our mission, and providing bug reports. If you have contributed to our project, then we consider you a member of our extended family and value your opinions and concerns very highly. We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value the opinions of others. This is because major contributors have already proved their desire to further our mission, and for newcomers, their intention has not yet been established. We want everyone entering our community willing to help out to feel welcomed. To maintain and encourage a welcoming environment we ask all people interacting with our community to follow these guidelines when in our public spaces. By public spaces we mean mailing lists, IRC channels, Code repositories, and reporting bug reports GUIDELINES 1) When in discussions keep focused on the topic being discussed. 2) Say helpful things, and if you feel you have nothing to say that furthers the discussion, say nothing. By helpful we mean for example: If someone asks a question, even if it's one that you think has an obvious answer, either provide an example or a link to the section of the manual that covers it. If you feel a person does not provide enough information for someone to help, point them to this link: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems 3) Do not switch the topic to yourself unless the topic happens to be about you. For example if someone is asking a question about replication, and the words master and slave come up in discussion, do not talk about the great master/slave sex you had last night. 4) Do not ask questions that are unrelated to the mission of our project. USE OF TRIGGER TERMS We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some past trauma for some people. While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as sensitive to the usage. As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more than we do of renaming old features. HANDLING ISSUES We understand that through no fault of anybody, a person may make a comment they consider harmless that others find very offensive or makes another feel small. As project maintainers we will monitor these and gently call people out on them even if they are a member of our maintainer group. By gentle call out, we mean something like "I think what X was trying to say was that you need to do this" or point them to this document and specific bullet point we feel they violated. We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same in a kind and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and the person didn't mean harm by it, simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. If anyone is being purposely antagonistic please notify the project maintainer group at ... with the specific occurrence and evidence that made you feel this way. We will judge if your complaints are valid and if we deem they are valid we will talk with the person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out if we determine behavior change is not possible. We do not tolerate those we feel are trying to derail our project by injecting discussions that have little to do with the mission of our project. If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make demands for change, we will try to tell you that kindly and request you to change or leave. We promise as project maintainers to apply the same standards on ourselves as we apply to others. Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is one that focuses on the technical merit of ideas and solutions rather than on the person behind them. I still prefer this wording as there is no need for us to list the ways in which someone can personally be attacked. Should the list include relative's weight, religion, aliveness, past follies, jobs &c. The quote above is sufficiently powerful to allow members of this group to reprimand anyone for stepping out of bounds without having to shoehorn their objection into a very narrow list. Lists of specific points like this are almost always the wrong way to do something general. Title VI (and policies based on it) includes a list for very specific reasons and we're seeing the issues that brings as that list isn't always inclusive enough. Jim On January 11, 2016 5:48:38 PM EST, "Joshua D. Drake" wrote: >On 01/11/2016 02:41 PM, Brian Dunavant wrote: "3) A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment >is free of negative personal criticism directed at a member of a community, rather than at the technical merit of a topic." >> >>> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free >>> of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual >orientation, >>> disability, physical appearance, body size or race. >> >> Between these two I still prefer my wording here because it >> encompasses all personal attacks regardless of topic or type and >> avoids hot-button words that distract from the point and can be used >> for lawyering. It also emphasizes the desired behavior instead, that >> criticism should be about the technical merit of the topic. "Don't >be >> a jerk, and stick to the code." Maybe even rewording it to be a >> positive instead of a negative would improve it further. >> >> "A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is one >> that focuses on the technical merit of ideas and solutions rather >than >> on the person behind them." >> > >How about we meet in the middle: > >A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free >of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual >orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or >personal attacks. > > > >-- >Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 >PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. >Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't >control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. > > >-- >Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) >To make changes to your subscription: >http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [GENERAL] Slow Query - PostgreSQL 9.2
On 1/11/16, Saulo Merlo wrote: > Ok, thanks Vitaly. > I need to create a TEXT or VARCHAR index. > and another one with timestamptz > How can I do?Thanks How to create indexes of different types is written at [1]. But I thing you need something else. You have to create index on the specified column(s). Type of data will be recognized by a column type. Your primary goal is to avoid sequence scan of big tables. It is important to read explain[2] and find _tables_ and _columns_ (or _expressions_) where they appears in the "seq scan/filter" blocks to decide whether it worth to create an index or not. You can create index on expression[3] where column(s) of the table or constants are involved, but keep in mind it is impossible to create an index using columns of different tables or using non-constants (e.g. "now()"). Note that your two last posts doesn't have information what columns you need. [1] http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.2/static/indexes-types.html [2] http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.2/static/using-explain.html [3] http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.2/static/indexes-expressional.html P.S.: please, delete old (irrelevant) information which is not necessary for answering. > > From: smerl...@outlook.com > To: clavadetsc...@swisspug.org; vitaly.buro...@gmail.com > CC: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Slow Query - PostgreSQL 9.2 > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 21:37:43 + > > Hey guys.. > How could I create a timestampandtz index? > CREATE TABLE gorfs.inode_segments > ( > <> > ) -- Best regards, Vitaly Burovoy -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
On 01/11/2016 02:54 PM, Tom Lane wrote: "Joshua D. Drake" writes: How about we meet in the middle: A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or personal attacks. That's not really meeting in the middle: it still specifies exactly one set of disapproved topics. Might be OK if it read like "... personal comments, for example ones related to gender, ..." Tom, Oh good point. I like that. So: A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or personal attacks. Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
> We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value > the opinions of others. A CoC is not the place to say some animals are more equal than others. A core commiter calling someone the n- or b- words is just as bad as me, a non commiter (if not worse!) > While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of > changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as sensitive to the usage. What psychological trauma? From changing terms? Are you crazy? (See for that you'd like to the CoC to tell me why that wasn't an appropriate way to express my disbelief that someone would equate a change of term to psychological trauma. Also, "because it's been that way always" and "it would be a minor inconvience to a lot of people" are rarely good reasons to dismiss a valid objection to a term. Also, it all sounds too fluffy. Also, why did you have a quote at the top? Were you responding to something? Jim On January 11, 2016 5:56:08 PM EST, Regina Obe wrote: > >> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is >purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more >interested in being a victim than moving forward. > >Here is my latest version. Let me know if I should throw in a github >repo so it's easier to read or if you have other plans for a Coc. > >- > > >Like the open source technical community as a whole, our community is >made up of a mixture of professionals and volunteers with vast >differences of opinions and >styles of communication. Our community is made up of people from many >cultures and walks of life who have come together >with the common goals of making a great piece of software and helping >others use this software. > >We value contributions from everybody. By contributions we mean code, >documentation, project outreach in form of setting up conferences or >working groups, >package maintenance, answering and asking questions in our forums which >further our mission, and providing bug reports. > >If you have contributed to our project, then we consider you a member >of our extended family and value your opinions and concerns very >highly. > >We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we >value the opinions of others. >This is because major contributors have already proved their desire to >further our mission, and for newcomers, >their intention has not yet been established. > >We want everyone entering our community willing to help out to feel >welcomed. > >To maintain and encourage a welcoming environment we ask all people >interacting with our community to follow these guidelines when in our >public spaces. By public spaces we mean mailing lists, IRC channels, >Code repositories, and reporting bug reports > >GUIDELINES > >1) When in discussions keep focused on the topic being discussed. >2) Say helpful things, and if you feel you have nothing to say that >furthers the discussion, say nothing. > >By helpful we mean for example: >If someone asks a question, even if it's one that you think has an >obvious answer, either provide an example or a link to the section of >the manual that covers it. > >If you feel a person does not provide enough information for someone to >help, point them to this link: >https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems > >3) Do not switch the topic to yourself unless the topic happens to be >about you. >For example if someone is asking a question about replication, and the >words master and slave come up in discussion, >do not talk about the great master/slave sex you had last night. > >4) Do not ask questions that are unrelated to the mission of our >project. > >USE OF TRIGGER TERMS > >We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some >past trauma for some people. >While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the >effort of changing long understood terminology and the psychological >trauma >such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not >as sensitive to the usage. >As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more >than we do of renaming old features. > >HANDLING ISSUES > >We understand that through no fault of anybody, a person may make a >comment they consider harmless that others find very offensive or makes >another feel small. As project maintainers >we will monitor these and gently call people out on them even if they >are a member of our maintainer group. > >By gentle call out, we mean something like "I think what X was trying >to say was that you need to do this" or point them to this document and >specific bullet point we feel they violated. > >We expect of every
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
Why must it be free of personal comments? "Tom, I like the way you handed this issue. Good work!" Is a personal comment. Why do we need lists? What specifically is wrong with "that focuses on the tech and not the person" version? Jim On January 11, 2016 6:04:03 PM EST, "Joshua D. Drake" wrote: >On 01/11/2016 02:54 PM, Tom Lane wrote: >> "Joshua D. Drake" writes: >>> How about we meet in the middle: >> >>> A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free >>> of non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual >>> orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or >>> personal attacks. >> >> That's not really meeting in the middle: it still specifies exactly >> one set of disapproved topics. Might be OK if it read like >> "... personal comments, for example ones related to gender, ..." > >Tom, > >Oh good point. I like that. So: > >A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free >of non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to >gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, > >race or personal attacks. > >Sincerely, > >JD > > >-- >Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 >PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. >Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't >control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. > > >-- >Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) >To make changes to your subscription: >http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
> """ A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of > non-technical or personal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, > disability, physical appearance, body size or race. """ I really think you should leave out the whole " gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size or race." I can think of several things not accounted for there that I consider personal and a big turn-off. As I said my biggest issue is when people are not helpful and make snide remarks about my choice of operating system, what mail client I use, or what editor I use to edit my code with, and what is my preferred programming language. That is not covered. So the point is not being helpful should be avoided. If you are helpful it's really hard to be making fun of people's gender, sexual orientation, disability , physical appearance, body size or race or any other special classifications someone identifies themselves with. I think people understand the concept of helpful. Thanks, Regina -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] 9.4 -> 9.5 upgrade problem when both python2 and python3 present
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 10:04:16AM -0500, Tom Lane wrote: /tmp/mutt-mayon-1000-19386-284b6a00794950f414 > Paul Jones writes: > > pg_upgrade complains about not being able to find $libdir/plpython3 > > when upgrading a 9.4 cluster that has both python2 and python3 used. > > No, that's not what the error message says: > > > Could not load library "$libdir/plpython3" > > FATAL: Python major version mismatch in session > > DETAIL: This session has previously used Python major version 2, and it is > > now attempting to use Python major version 3. > > HINT: Start a new session to use a different Python major version. > > This is a restriction we put in place because libpython2 and libpython3 > don't coexist nicely in the same address space. Unfortunately, it makes > it problematic to restore a dump that contains references to both python2 > and python3 functions. > > It looks like pg_upgrade tries to load all libraries from functions in > any database in the old cluster into a single session in the new cluster, > which will fail in a scenario like this even if you keep python2 and > python3 functions rigorously separated into distinct databases. I'm > not sure if we could weaken that test enough to work. I guess the thing to do is to manually pg_dump the databases that have python, drop them, upgrade, and then manually restore. > > > I dropped the python2 database but still got the problem. > > You must still have at least one database that contains references > to python2 (check pg_language to be sure). I thought of that after I pulled the trigger on the mail... Thanks for the information... > > regards, tom lane > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V2
tl;dr; * Modified #2 to be less harsh. * Modified #3 with TGL and James comments * Did not remove examples as I believe they are vital to the success I saw Regina's post, I believe it is good for context but I also believe that something concise and to the point is the better path. PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC): 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way. 2. The CoC is not about being offended. As with any diverse community, anyone can get offended at anything. 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or personal attacks. 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee. 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own. 6. The CoC is not about Social Justice. Sincerely, JD -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ 503-667-4564 PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development. Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Slow Query - PostgreSQL 9.2
Thanks Vitaly for all your help. I'll have a very deep look on the links you
have provided. In the meantime, I'll also post here what I need.. IF you could
help one more time, would be very very nice.
Thank you again.
This can either be nfs_file_path or nfs_migration_date (both new columns).
Adding an index on either of these columns and using them in the clause should
improve things greatly.
QUERY:
SELECT
main.inode_id AS file_id,
main.file_data AS main_binary,
main.node_full_path AS filename,
main.last_modified AS date_created,
medium.inode_id AS medium_id,
medium.file_dataAS medium_binary,
thumbnail.inode_id AS thumbnail_id,
thumbnail.file_data AS thumbnail_binary
FROM
gorfs.nodes AS main
INNER JOIN
gorfs.inode_segments AS iseg ON iseg.st_ino = main.parent_inode_id
AND main.relative_path = 'main'
AND main.object_type = 'S_IFREG'
AND iseg.nfs_migration_date IS NULL
AND (main.last_modified <
(transaction_timestamp() AT TIME ZONE
'UTC' - '1 months' :: INTERVAL))
AND iseg.st_ino_target = main.inode_id
LEFT JOIN
gorfs.nodes AS medium
ON medium.parent_inode_id = main.parent_inode_id
AND medium.relative_path = 'medium'
AND medium.object_type = 'S_IFREG'
LEFT JOIN
gorfs.nodes AS thumbnail
ON thumbnail.parent_inode_id = main.parent_inode_id
AND thumbnail.relative_path = 'thumbnail'
AND thumbnail.object_type = 'S_IFREG'
LIMIT
100;
INDEX CREATED:CREATE INDEX CONCURRENTLY ix_inode_segments_nfs_file_path on
gorfs.inode_segments USING btree ("full_path");
full_path:ALTER TABLE gorfs.inode_segments ADD COLUMN full_path
"gorfs"."absolute_pathname";
EXPLAIN ANALYZE:
"Limit (cost=1935606.57..4178326.49 rows=1 width=170) (actual
time=199195.079..315313.338 rows=100 loops=1)"
" -> Nested Loop Left Join (cost=1935606.57..4178326.49 rows=1 width=170)
(actual time=199195.076..315313.089 rows=100 loops=1)"
"-> Nested Loop Left Join (cost=1935087.58..4177095.71 rows=1
width=138) (actual time=199195.015..315156.343 rows=100 loops=1)"
" -> Nested Loop (cost=1934568.58..4176379.93 rows=1 width=98)
(actual time=199162.474..314565.271 rows=100 loops=1)"
"Join Filter: ((B''::"bit"
& ("t"."st_mode")::"bit") = ("sb"."bits")::"bit")"
"Rows Removed by Join Filter: 34533"
"-> Nested Loop (cost=1934049.58..4175860.39 rows=1
width=103) (actual time=196125.245..314086.043 rows=34633 loops=1)"
" -> Nested Loop (cost=1934049.58..4175847.02 rows=1
width=86) (actual time=196125.213..305961.431 rows=34634 loops=1)"
"-> Hash Join (cost=1934049.58..4175833.65
rows=1 width=94) (actual time=196094.683..238436.508 rows=34634 loops=1)"
" Hash Cond: ((("p"."st_ino")::bigint =
("iseg"."st_ino")::bigint) AND (("p"."st_ino_target")::bigint =
("iseg"."st_ino_target")::bigint))"
" -> Seq Scan on "inode_segments" "p"
(cost=0.00..2233425.84 rows=303935 width=78) (actual time=0.046..34047.515
rows=4466887 loops=1)"
"Filter: ((CASE WHEN
(("st_ino_target")::bigint = 2) THEN NULL::character varying ELSE
("segment_index")::character varying END)::"text" = 'main'::"text")"
"Rows Removed by Filter: 25643122"
" -> Hash (cost=1929490.56..1929490.56
rows=303935 width=16) (actual time=195921.025..195921.025 rows=40682288
loops=1)"
"Buckets: 32768 Batches: 128
(originally 1) Memory Usage: 16385kB"
"-> Seq Scan on "inode_segments"
"iseg" (cost=0.00..1929490.56 rows=303935 width=16) (actual
time=0.002..112215.501 rows=60787096 loops=1)"
" Filter:
("nfs_migration_date" IS NULL)"
"-> Index Scan using "pk_inodes" on "inodes"
"i" (cost=0.00..13.36 rows=1 width=8) (actual time=1.942..1.943 rows=1
loops=34634)"
" Index Cond: (("st_ino")::bigint =
("p"."st_ino")::bigint)"
" Filter: ((("st_ino")::bigint = 2) OR
((B''::"bit" & ("st_mode")::"bit") =
B'0100'::"bit"))"
" -> Index Scan using "pk_inodes" on "inodes" "t"
(cost=0.00..13.36 rows=1 width=29) (actual time=0.226..0.228 rows=1
loops=34634)"
"Index Cond: (("st_ino")::bigint =
("p"."st_ino_target")::bigint)"
"Filter: (("st_mtime
Re: [GENERAL] 9.4 -> 9.5 upgrade problem when both python2 and python3 present
Paul Jones writes: > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 10:04:16AM -0500, Tom Lane wrote: >> It looks like pg_upgrade tries to load all libraries from functions in >> any database in the old cluster into a single session in the new cluster, >> which will fail in a scenario like this even if you keep python2 and >> python3 functions rigorously separated into distinct databases. I'm >> not sure if we could weaken that test enough to work. > I guess the thing to do is to manually pg_dump the databases that have > python, drop them, upgrade, and then manually restore. If you'd rather build a patched version of PG, I have posted a work-in-progress patch to address this issue: http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/31659.1452538...@sss.pgh.pa.us regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC
> We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value > the opinions of others. > A CoC is not the place to say some animals are more equal than others. A core > commiter calling someone the n- or b- words is just as bad as me, a non > commiter (if not worse!) Yes it is. If a stranger comes and wants something changed, and Tom Lane says no. You should go with Tom Lane. Period. Now the whole n-or-b thing gets into obvious not helpful dialogue which is not helpful. I'm sure anyone would agree that if Tom called me a nigger, it's not helpful to our communication, and you should therefore tell him to shut-up regardless who he is. So the point is, some things ARE about fluffy opinions and when such disputes arise and there is a tie, the people who have contributed to a project more should win. So that means if you like Josh's Coc as much as my Coc and you can't decide you should go with his. > While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of > changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as sensitive to the usage. > What psychological trauma? From changing terms? Are you crazy? (See for that > you'd like to the CoC to tell me why that wasn't an appropriate way to > express my disbelief that someone would equate a change of term to > psychological trauma. Think about if all your life when you've been talking about replication you've been using master/slave, and someone says from now on, It's leader/follower. So now in every conference you go to you need to catch yourself when you are saying Master/Slave – oops I meant to say Leader / Follower. To me that's psychological trauma. It's the same psychological trauma I had to face being born a left-handed and being forced to write with my right-hand. > Also, "because it's been that way always" and "it would be a minor > inconvience to a lot of people" are rarely good reasons to dismiss a valid > objection to a term. I left the door open for that intentionally – we are more okay with changing new undecided terms than old terms. I should add cost in there. > Also, why did you have a quote at the top? Were you responding to something? Mistake. Thanks, Regina Jim On January 11, 2016 5:56:08 PM EST, Regina Obe mailto:l...@pcorp.us> > wrote: 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in being a victim than moving forward. Here is my latest version. Let me know if I should throw in a github repo so it's easier to read or if you have other plans for a Coc. _ Like the open source technical community as a whole, our community is made up of a mixture of professionals and volunteers with vast differences of opinions and styles of communication. Our community is made up of people from many cultures and walks of life who have come together with the common goals of making a great piece of software and helping others use this software. We value contributions from everybody. By contributions we mean code, documentation, project outreach in form of setting up conferences or working groups, package maintenance, answering and asking questions in our forums which further our mission, and providing bug reports. If you have contributed to our project, then we consider you a member of our extended family and value your opinions and concerns very highly. We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value the opinions of others. This is because major contributors have already proved their desire to further our mission, and for newcomers, their intention has not yet been established. We want everyone entering our community willing to help out to feel welcomed. To maintain and encourage a welcoming environment we ask all people interacting with our community to follow these guidelines when in our public spaces. By public spaces we mean mailing lists, IRC channels, Code repositories, and reporting bug reports GUIDELINES 1) When in discussions keep focused on the topic being discussed. 2) Say helpful things, and if you feel you have nothing to say that furthers the discussion, say nothing. By helpful we mean for example: If someone asks a question, even if it's one that you think has an obvious answer, either provide an example or a link to the section of the manual that covers it. If you feel a person does not provide enough information for someone to help, point them to this link: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems 3) Do not switch the topic to yourself unless the topic happens to be about you. For example if someone is asking a question about replication, and the words master and slave come up in discussion, do not talk about the great master/slave sex you had last night.
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
Regina Obe wrote: If I had a Coc to point at, I would point at the section I feel you are violating. +1 funny! -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
Regina Obe wrote: If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym. Notwithstanding the most regrettable childhood trauma, this request is exactly the kind of ridiculousness that the Political Correctness nonsense associated with CoCs that we should be worried about in the aftermath of proposed adoption. Complaining that the acronym "CoC" is anything remotely like the thing the work "cock" means is, well, cockamamie It's like someone becoming upset over the work "niggardly" as a racist epithet. In fact that word and the one you are thinking of are completely unrelated: entirely different etymology. Nothing in common except, on the one hand, as you imagine the acronym might be pronounced, and on the other because there are six similar letters. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct
Geoff Winkless wrote: On 11 January 2016 at 20:13, Regina Obe wrote: While this is funny to some, I don't think it adds value to this conversation. I would consider it a derailment and not very helpful. If I had a Coc to point at, I would point at the section I feel you are violating. If there were a CoC that would explicitly disallow occasional lighthearted humour... I would most definitely remove myself Your post, on the other hand, is clearly intended to censure a fellow contributor ... I think you missed the sarcasm. I thought your comment was great when I read it, and the I though her retort was even better!! -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] WIP: CoC V2
> On 12 Jan 2016, at 0:16, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of > non-technical or personal comments, for example ones related to gender, > sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or > personal attacks. I'm not debating whether there should be examples or not, they are usually useful, but perhaps examples belong in a separate section and not in the core CoC? Frankly though, this thread looks like a testament of why Postgres doesn't really need a CoC. You people are all being so polite about it that it's almost offensive! Alban Hertroys -- If you can't see the forest for the trees, cut the trees and you'll find there is no forest. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:00:23 -0800 "Joshua D. Drake" wrote: > A CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is > purely a recipients response and usually because the recipient is > more interested in being a victim than moving forward. I've seen text like the preceding in over 10 messages in this thread. I could be interpreting them wrong, but they seem to be saying the offended recipient is more interested in being a victim than moving forward, or with some of the responses, the recipient is being a cry baby. In my opinion, this is a much easier position to take when it's the other person regularly spoken of as "misinformed", "ignorant", "neckbeard", or whatever. Much harder position when your technical posts are regularly greeted by such personal insults, and few folks rise to your defense. Well, whatever, survival of the fittest. 90% of the time, the party being personally insulted silently leaves, and is not missed. But sometimes the community has something to lose. Let me tell you a story. = = 12 years ago, one guy in my LUG continually replied to me in what I think most reasonable people would call an insulting manner. Some of his posts called me "ignorant", "unprofessional", lack of "checking my work", "committing libel", "lies and hypocracy", and "reinventing history". I called for the LUG's Executive Committee to reign in his rhetoric, explaining that it had gotten to such a point that I could no longer bring friends, or possible business associates into the LUG because they would be hearing a constant barrage of anti-Litt rhetoric, and some of it might stick. The Exec Committee told me I was being too sensitive and I should just let it slide. So I got a new domain name, started a new LUG, drew membership both from the old LUG and from the greater area. Immediately those same people who said I was being too sensitive begged me to cancel the new LUG and they'd institute anti-personal-insult rules. But it was too late: I'd already done it. Over the next several years, the new LUG grew and still meets every month, maintaining an active mailing list and IRC channel. Meanwhile, the old LUG lost membership, lost their nonprofit corporate status, lost their mailing list, lost their domain name, and their remnants hold an "installfest" once a month in a venue with no Internet (it's BYOI). = = Most of the time, chalking things up to "recipient is more interested in being a victim" does the community no harm. But every once in a while, the costs are considerable. All because somebody just *had* to personally insult someone else, repeatedly, and nobody thought that was a bad thing, and when the recipient finally objected, the objection was chalked up to him or her valuing his/her victimhood. About a CoC, here's what I want to know: What *possible* value to a free software community could come of a sentence structured like the following: "You " What possible harm would it do to ban such sentences? What features do such sentences introduce into the software? Why is it difficult to discuss features instead of people on the mailing list? How many potential contributors have silently left after seeing personal insults to themselves or others? My opinion: Whether you call it CoC or mailing list rules or anything else, some degree of it is needed, because the community allowing a wild west of personal insults fails to achieve its potential at best, and disintegrates at worst. SteveT Steve Litt January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
