Re: [mailop] Gmail admin help requested

[Gil Bahat]

We've had this occurrence when we promoted DMARC to p=quarantine. Some
non-compliant emails were gone entirely while others made it to the spam
folder. not sure it applies to your situation, but I figured it's worth
mentioning.

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Lyle Giese  wrote:

> I have discovered that some emails are disappearing inside gmail.
>
> I have logs of one such email that disappeared.  It shows the 250 reply
> from google, but email doesn't get to inbox or spam filter.
>
> Looking for assistance from Gmail.
>
> Thanks,
> Lyle Giese
> LCR Computer Services, Inc.
>
>
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Re: [mailop] Anti-spam recommendations for a user-generated-content host

[Rich Kulawiec]

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 03:18:28PM +0200, Gil Bahat wrote:
> [...] using the built-in content invite mechanism.

Step 1: remove that permanently.  It's an abuse magnet, like "email
this link to a friend", and while there are ways to mitigate some of
abuse your site will emanate as a result of it, the only truly effective
way is to get rid of it.

If someone wishes to point out content on your site to a third party,
then either (a) they're perfectly capable of composing an email message
doing so and sending it to their correspondents or (b) they're not.
(a) does not involve you and thus doesn't present you with an abuse
problem to solve.  (b) doesn't present anyone with an abuse problem.

All mechanisms like this are examples of the general problem that
results when one allows third parties to generate *outbound* traffic
from one's operation to arbitrary destinations.  Like open DNS resolvers
and open SMTP relays, the best way to deal with these is not to have them.

---rsk

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Re: [mailop] Gmail admin help requested

[Rich Kulawiec]

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 10:56:18AM -0600, Lyle Giese wrote:
> I have logs of one such email that disappeared.  It shows the 250
> reply from google, but email doesn't get to inbox or spam filter.

I've seen this as well.  Repeatedly.  However, attempts to contact
Gmail via standard/required role addresses have failed to generate
any actual replies from any actual humans.

---rsk


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Re: [mailop] Anti-spam recommendations for a user-generated-content host

[Neil Schwartzman]

Agreed. years ago I wrote a BP document for a former employer wherein the 
bottom line was no customizable fields for public-facing UGC mechanisms. The 
criminals will find them before your legitimate users will, always. expect to 
find 419 offers and porn & malware links in there instantaneously.

typically these days, as I’m sure you know share exhortations tend to cluster 
around social networks Facebook/Twitter/Google+, etcetera, as rich suggests, 
having you share-by-email function launch a pre-propogated email sent from the 
user’s own mail client is the way to go if they really ut generate their own 
content, I’d imagine for messaging purposes, retaining control over what is 
said is probably preferable (Ask Bill Cosby about how inviting people to 
comment on their own can end, for example).


Neil Schwartzman
Executive Director
Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email
http://cauce.org
Tel : (303) 800-6345
Twitter : @cauce




> On Jan 20, 2015, at 05:43, Rich Kulawiec  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 03:18:28PM +0200, Gil Bahat wrote:
>> [...] using the built-in content invite mechanism.
> 
> Step 1: remove that permanently.  It's an abuse magnet, like "email
> this link to a friend", and while there are ways to mitigate some of
> abuse your site will emanate as a result of it, the only truly effective
> way is to get rid of it.
> 
> If someone wishes to point out content on your site to a third party,
> then either (a) they're perfectly capable of composing an email message
> doing so and sending it to their correspondents or (b) they're not.
> (a) does not involve you and thus doesn't present you with an abuse
> problem to solve.  (b) doesn't present anyone with an abuse problem.
> 
> All mechanisms like this are examples of the general problem that
> results when one allows third parties to generate *outbound* traffic
> from one's operation to arbitrary destinations.  Like open DNS resolvers
> and open SMTP relays, the best way to deal with these is not to have them.
> 
> ---rsk
> 
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Re: [mailop] Gmail admin help requested

[Lyle Giese]

On 1/20/2015 4:46 AM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 10:56:18AM -0600, Lyle Giese wrote:

I have logs of one such email that disappeared.  It shows the 250
reply from google, but email doesn't get to inbox or spam filter.

I've seen this as well.  Repeatedly.  However, attempts to contact
Gmail via standard/required role addresses have failed to generate
any actual replies from any actual humans.

---rsk


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I have responded off-list to someone to the person from Google that 
contacted me.


Lyle

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Re: [mailop] Anti-spam recommendations for a user-generated-content host

[Dave Warren]

On 2015-01-20 05:15, Gil Bahat wrote:
On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Neil Schwartzman > wrote:


Agreed. years ago I wrote a BP document for a former employer
wherein the bottom line was no customizable fields for
public-facing UGC mechanisms. The criminals will find them before
your legitimate users will, always. expect to find 419 offers and
porn & malware links in there instantaneously.


There are no customizable fields and no links allowed. the problem 
comes when it's coupled with spammy content created via magisto 
itself. I think it will be hard to make a convincing 419 scam flick 
with the service (of course, spammers will always show ingenuity, 
never say never), but I've already seen (herbal) viagra ads and of 
course pornography. A challenge though, i'll see if I can find anything.


The content itself is the customizable field! What is the advantage of 
sending the invite or whatever yourself, rather than providing the user 
with the ability to do it themselves?


iOS share panel, send to the default email client, etc. Don't distribute 
the abuse yourself, make the abuser handle the distribution channel.


--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren

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Re: [mailop] Anti-spam recommendations for a user-generated-content host

[Matthias Leisi]

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Dave Warren  wrote:


> iOS share panel, send to the default email client, etc. Don't distribute
> the abuse yourself, make the abuser handle the distribution channel.
>

There is quite some support for fancy mailto:-links in modern
environments...

-- Matthias
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Re: [mailop] Gmail admin help requested

[Lena]

> From: Brandon Long 

> Messages are delivered or bounced with zero exceptions

Can messages be bounced after being accepted by Gmail (DSN/NDR)?
If yes then why not reject during SMTP session instead?

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[mailop] Interesting question regarding Office 365 Errors..

[Michael Peddemors]

Had a report of a strange case of a 451 error ..

Inadvertently the recipient has a poor MX record in place, eg

mx.domain.com 0
backup.domain.com 10 (Not responding)

However, when the sending MTA attempted to send an email, it received an 
error of


451 4.4.0 Security status InvalidToken

Not sure if the sending MTA system generated that error internally, but 
it isn't one the recipients mail server would have generated normally, 
but in either case, you would expect that be treated as a temporary 
error, and retried later.


Instead, the MTA tried the second backup server which wasn't responding, 
and so returned a permanent error.


Now, the RFC's state that the sending MTA 'may' retry after a 451, and 
most MTA's do for a certain time, but it seems very unusual to see it 
try subsequent MX's unless the first one was down or not responding.


Any comments? Should a server continue trying other MX'es on a 4xx error?


*Diagnostic information for administrators:*

Generating server: CY1PR0201MB0556.namprd02.prod.outlook.com 

Receiving server: na01-internal.map.protection.outlook.com 
 (10.58.52.27)


 
1/18/2015 12:09:56 AM - Remote Server at 
na01-internal.map.protection.outlook.com 
 (10.58.52.27) returned 
'550 4.4.7 QUEUE.Expired; message expired'
1/18/2015 12:05:51 AM - Remote Server at 
na01-internal.map.protection.outlook.com 
 (10.58.52.27) returned 
'450 4.7.0 Proxy session setup failed on Frontend with '451 4.4.0 
Primary target IP address responded with: "451 4.4.0 Security status 
InvalidToken." Attempted failover to alternate host, but that did not 
succeed. Either there are no alternate hosts, or delivery failed to all 
alternate hosts. The last endpoint attempted was :1101''



--
"Catch the Magic of Linux..."

Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic

A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"MagicSpam" is a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed.
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company.



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Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic

A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed.
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company.

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[mailop] Gmail Spam Issue

[Aaron Smith]

Hi There,

We're currently looking into an issue with one of our clients having spam 
issues with Gmail as was hoping someone might have some ideas.

When the client sends an email to a Gmail address, more often then not the 
email goes into the recipent's spam folder (it's not all going to spam, about 
50%). We are not reciving any NDR either suggesting the emails are going 
through fine.

We have triple checked that the domain and IPs are not blacklisted and have not 
had reports of issues other then Gmail recipents. I have also checked the 
content of the emails and they appear to be "spammy", all the emails are just 
regular emails (not newsletter or anything).

The client is using a Hosted Exchnage solution (via a Hosting provider) and we 
have tried to escalate the issue with them but have not been able to make much 
progress. We also have other clients using the same email provider that have 
not reported any issues so my thinking it is the domain that has a bad 
reputation at Gmail's end for some reason.

If someone from Google or anywhere else could shed some light into the issue 
that would be much appreciated. We are almost at the stage of moving providers 
(to O365) but my fear is it's not going to fix the issue.

Thanks,

AS
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Re: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue

[Howard F. Cunningham]

Hi

Since you have other clients using that hosted provider with no problems, this 
strikes me as not being the provider's problem but rather something external to 
the provider.


Have you done the basics?


-  Is there a valid PTR record?

-  Is there a valid (and correct) SPF record? (a bad SPF record can 
cause more problems than no SPF record)

You will not receive a NDR if the email arrives and is delivered to the spam 
folder as the email was received and delivered to the user.


hc




Howard Cunningham, MCP
howa...@macrollc.com - personal
For technical support, send an email to 
serv...@macrollc.com or call 703-359-9211 (24/7)

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Smith
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 8:42 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue

Hi There,

We're currently looking into an issue with one of our clients having spam 
issues with Gmail as was hoping someone might have some ideas.

When the client sends an email to a Gmail address, more often then not the 
email goes into the recipent's spam folder (it's not all going to spam, about 
50%). We are not reciving any NDR either suggesting the emails are going 
through fine.

We have triple checked that the domain and IPs are not blacklisted and have not 
had reports of issues other then Gmail recipents. I have also checked the 
content of the emails and they appear to be "spammy", all the emails are just 
regular emails (not newsletter or anything).

The client is using a Hosted Exchnage solution (via a Hosting provider) and we 
have tried to escalate the issue with them but have not been able to make much 
progress. We also have other clients using the same email provider that have 
not reported any issues so my thinking it is the domain that has a bad 
reputation at Gmail's end for some reason.

If someone from Google or anywhere else could shed some light into the issue 
that would be much appreciated. We are almost at the stage of moving providers 
(to O365) but my fear is it's not going to fix the issue.

Thanks,

AS

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Re: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue

[Laura Atkins]

On Jan 20, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Smith  wrote:

> Hi There,
>  
> We’re currently looking into an issue with one of our clients having spam 
> issues with Gmail as was hoping someone might have some ideas.
>  
> When the client sends an email to a Gmail address, more often then not the 
> email goes into the recipent’s spam folder (it’s not all going to spam, about 
> 50%). We are not reciving any NDR either suggesting the emails are going 
> through fine.
>  
> We have triple checked that the domain and IPs are not blacklisted and have 
> not had reports of issues other then Gmail recipents. I have also checked the 
> content of the emails and they appear to be “spammy”, all the emails are just 
> regular emails (not newsletter or anything).
>  
> The client is using a Hosted Exchnage solution (via a Hosting provider) and 
> we have tried to escalate the issue with them but have not been able to make 
> much progress. We also have other clients using the same email provider that 
> have not reported any issues so my thinking it is the domain that has a bad 
> reputation at Gmail’s end for some reason.
>  
> If someone from Google or anywhere else could shed some light into the issue 
> that would be much appreciated. We are almost at the stage of moving 
> providers (to O365) but my fear is it’s not going to fix the issue.

Gmail maintains their own domain reputation, so if you're seeing mail go to 
spam then it's very possible it's domain reputation. Gmail also does a lot of 
recipient specific delivery, so it could be the recipient-specific filters. 

The real question is what is different between the mail going to the inbox and 
the mail going to the bulk folder? If there is a difference, then that's where 
you focus. If there's not then you want to look at the client's email address 
collection and sending. 

It could be a mistake on Gmail's end, it wouldn't be the first time. But often 
the filters are picking up on something (spamtraps, or sending mail to 
abandoned accounts or complaints) that the sender is doing. 

laura

-- 
Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise"The Deliverability Experts!"
Direct: 650 678-3454Fax: 650 249-1909
@wise_laura
Delivery blog: 

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Re: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue

[Aaron Smith]

Thanks for your replies, all insight is very much appreciated.


-  I can see the IPs used by the hosting provider do in fact have valid 
PTR records.

-  We do have a SPF record too, the hosting provider required us to 
create it when we setup the domain with their service. I tested the record with 
a few online tools and everything comes back with OK status.

When we did testing we were using black emails as well and randomly some emails 
would go to inbox and others would go to spam.

Thanks,

AS

From: Howard F. Cunningham [mailto:howa...@macrollc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2015 2:48 PM
To: Laura Atkins; Aaron Smith
Subject: RE: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue

Laura

Two hours ago I answered Aaron...

Hi

Since you have other clients using that hosted provider with no problems, this 
strikes me as not being the provider's problem but rather something external to 
the provider.


Have you done the basics?


-  Is there a valid PTR record?

-  Is there a valid (and correct) SPF record? (a bad SPF record can 
cause more problems than no SPF record)

You will not receive a NDR if the email arrives and is delivered to the spam 
folder as the email was received and delivered to the user.


hc


Howard Cunningham, MCP
howa...@macrollc.com - personal
For technical support, send an email to 
serv...@macrollc.com or call 703-359-9211 (24/7)

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Laura Atkins
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 9:55 PM
To: Aaron Smith
Cc: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue

On Jan 20, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Smith 
mailto:asm...@modena360.com.au>> wrote:

Hi There,

We're currently looking into an issue with one of our clients having spam 
issues with Gmail as was hoping someone might have some ideas.

When the client sends an email to a Gmail address, more often then not the 
email goes into the recipent's spam folder (it's not all going to spam, about 
50%). We are not reciving any NDR either suggesting the emails are going 
through fine.

We have triple checked that the domain and IPs are not blacklisted and have not 
had reports of issues other then Gmail recipents. I have also checked the 
content of the emails and they appear to be "spammy", all the emails are just 
regular emails (not newsletter or anything).

The client is using a Hosted Exchnage solution (via a Hosting provider) and we 
have tried to escalate the issue with them but have not been able to make much 
progress. We also have other clients using the same email provider that have 
not reported any issues so my thinking it is the domain that has a bad 
reputation at Gmail's end for some reason.

If someone from Google or anywhere else could shed some light into the issue 
that would be much appreciated. We are almost at the stage of moving providers 
(to O365) but my fear is it's not going to fix the issue.

Gmail maintains their own domain reputation, so if you're seeing mail go to 
spam then it's very possible it's domain reputation. Gmail also does a lot of 
recipient specific delivery, so it could be the recipient-specific filters.

The real question is what is different between the mail going to the inbox and 
the mail going to the bulk folder? If there is a difference, then that's where 
you focus. If there's not then you want to look at the client's email address 
collection and sending.

It could be a mistake on Gmail's end, it wouldn't be the first time. But often 
the filters are picking up on something (spamtraps, or sending mail to 
abandoned accounts or complaints) that the sender is doing.

laura

--
Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise"The Deliverability 
Experts!"
Direct: 650 678-3454  Fax: 650 249-1909
@wise_laura
Delivery blog: 


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Re: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue

[Brandon Long]

If you provide details off list I can have the spam team take a look.

Brandon
On Jan 20, 2015 8:30 PM, "Aaron Smith"  wrote:

>  Thanks for your replies, all insight is very much appreciated.
>
>
>
> -  I can see the IPs used by the hosting provider do in fact have
> valid PTR records.
>
> -  We do have a SPF record too, the hosting provider required us
> to create it when we setup the domain with their service. I tested the
> record with a few online tools and everything comes back with OK status.
>
>
>
> When we did testing we were using black emails as well and randomly some
> emails would go to inbox and others would go to spam.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> AS
>
>
>
> *From:* Howard F. Cunningham [mailto:howa...@macrollc.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 21 January 2015 2:48 PM
> *To:* Laura Atkins; Aaron Smith
> *Subject:* RE: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue
>
>
>
> Laura
>
>
>
> Two hours ago I answered Aaron…
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> Since you have other clients using that hosted provider with no problems,
> this strikes me as not being the provider’s problem but rather something
> external to the provider.
>
>
>
>
>
> Have you done the basics?
>
>
>
> -  Is there a valid PTR record?
>
> -  Is there a valid (and correct) SPF record? (a bad SPF record
> can cause more problems than no SPF record)
>
>
>
> You will not receive a NDR if the email arrives and is delivered to the
> spam folder as the email was received and delivered to the user.
>
>
>
>
>
> hc
>
>
>
>
>
> Howard Cunningham, MCP
>
> howa...@macrollc.com - personal
>
> For technical support, send an email to serv...@macrollc.com or call
> 703-359-9211 (24/7)
>
>
>
> *From:* mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Laura Atkins
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 20, 2015 9:55 PM
> *To:* Aaron Smith
> *Cc:* mailop@mailop.org
> *Subject:* Re: [mailop] Gmail Spam Issue
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Smith  wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi There,
>
>
>
> We’re currently looking into an issue with one of our clients having spam
> issues with Gmail as was hoping someone might have some ideas.
>
>
>
> When the client sends an email to a Gmail address, more often then not the
> email goes into the recipent’s spam folder (it’s not all going to spam,
> about 50%). We are not reciving any NDR either suggesting the emails are
> going through fine.
>
>
>
> We have triple checked that the domain and IPs are not blacklisted and
> have not had reports of issues other then Gmail recipents. I have also
> checked the content of the emails and they appear to be “spammy”, all the
> emails are just regular emails (not newsletter or anything).
>
>
>
> The client is using a Hosted Exchnage solution (via a Hosting provider)
> and we have tried to escalate the issue with them but have not been able to
> make much progress. We also have other clients using the same email
> provider that have not reported any issues so my thinking it is the domain
> that has a bad reputation at Gmail’s end for some reason.
>
>
>
> If someone from Google or anywhere else could shed some light into the
> issue that would be much appreciated. We are almost at the stage of moving
> providers (to O365) but my fear is it’s not going to fix the issue.
>
>
>
> Gmail maintains their own domain reputation, so if you're seeing mail go
> to spam then it's very possible it's domain reputation. Gmail also does a
> lot of recipient specific delivery, so it could be the recipient-specific
> filters.
>
>
>
> The real question is what is different between the mail going to the inbox
> and the mail going to the bulk folder? If there is a difference, then
> that's where you focus. If there's not then you want to look at the
> client's email address collection and sending.
>
>
>
> It could be a mistake on Gmail's end, it wouldn't be the first time. But
> often the filters are picking up on something (spamtraps, or sending mail
> to abandoned accounts or complaints) that the sender is doing.
>
>
>
> laura
>
>
>
> --
>
> Laura Atkins
>
> Word to the Wise"The Deliverability
> Experts!"
>
> Direct: 650 678-3454  Fax: 650 249-1909
>
> @wise_laura
>
> Delivery blog: 
>
>
>
>
> *ExchangeDefender* Message Security: Check Authenticity
> 
>
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>
>
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