emojis

[May and Noah]

Trying once again.

I got to hear what emojis are, but no one answered my question on how to make 
it so voiceover does not announce them. Is this possible or *smiles* maybe no 
one knows that answer?

May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca

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Re: 10.9.1 Disappointing

[Maria and Joe Chapman]

HI.  you’ve made some really good points.  I do think there are small 
improvements being made though.  Granted it’s slower than we would like it to 
be, but consider the latest bug that was fixed which is voice over not reading 
Emergy  I think perhaps the bug with vo j is going to be one of those tough 
ones to fix as some people are having problems and others aren’t. I think 
overall though vo is becoming a great screen reader.  Maybe not as advanced as 
jaws, but I’ve found jaws on some systems to be buggy as well. 

Is there room for improvement and more dialog? Yep for sure. I do think we are 
getting there slowly though.

pardon the rambling.

 
Cheers 
Maria  

sent from mac mini 
email, & fb bubbygirl1...@gmail.com
skype bubbygirl1972  twitter same as skype without the numbers. 





On 18 Dec 2013, at 5:28 pm, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:

> Hi Mario, thanks for the very kind words...We are fortunate to have plenty of 
> thoughtful people on the list who've made some great contributions.
> In response to what you've said, and the contributions of a few others today, 
> I'd make the following points.
> Apple is a mainstream company, but by virtue of the fact that they've decided 
> to produce screen readers, that also makes them a screen reader company and I 
> think that means they should be held to no less a standard than any other 
> screen reader company. In fact, you could argue they may be held to a 
> slightly higher one, because if the cross-functional teams are working right, 
> they can build in accessibility from the ground up when a new OS is being 
> designed which gives them an advantage.
> I think also that as paying customers, we're entitled to be concerned when 
> something that worked well before does not work as well now, at least for 
> some of us.
> I think it's also important that there is genuine dialogue that goes on 
> between a relatively small, niche community like ours, and Apple. People have 
> to pay sums that for many blind people are quite significant, in order to 
> beta test Apples operating systems and offer comment at a time when it can 
> hopefully make a difference. Assuming some blind people are doing this, and 
> bugs are being reported, some decision is being made somewhere not to give 
> these bugs a high enough priority to be fixed. I was a product manager for 10 
> years, so I know that that's all part of the process, a company can't fix 
> every single issue and you have to make the tough call. I think though that 
> with some of the efficiency hits we're taking, perhaps there's a 
> misunderstanding about how important some of these issues actually are.
> I don't think Apple is evil or anything like that, nor are they saints. I 
> think they were motivated to really grab the accessibility bull by the horns 
> through a mixture of altruism and business pragmatism, and they've done a 
> great job. I'd just like to see some new vehicles for communication with our 
> community emerge.
> I have some ideas about this and will take some ideas forward, as they have 
> fine products and have done more to embrace the concept of universal design 
> than any other company in the world.
> I know it's easy to get frustrated, but venting without thinking about how we 
> can be a constructive part of the solution won't make any difference either.
> Take care and thanks again.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org
> 
> On 18/12/2013, at 5:01 pm, Mario Navarro  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> hi ,jonathan.
>> jonathan do not need to respond to this post, but let me tell you one thing 
>> friend.
>> this is why I admire you and consider you the smartest blind in the world 
>> you have an open mind, and think with a universal philosophy.
>> and still respect you more because you did not fear anything or anyone and 
>> speak what 's on your mind without fear of anything.
>> and you know why you fear not, because you're a super intelligent, 
>> autonomous, and not need favors from anyone else. blinds all the world knows 
>> you, admire you and respect you.
>> and if they do it is because you have become a super independent person and 
>> think with your own head without being forced to think about how others want 
>> or obligate you.
>> jonathan know what makes me most disappointed with some people?
>> is why they are not good or even with them.
>> most people who continue to defend the apple, have the perfect idea that 
>> apple or department accessibility is missing with them and with tremendous 
>> irresponsibility in their line of duty.
>> this may not be acceptable for a company like Apple that is super 
>> millionaire and has more than enough money to have a well organized 
>> structure so that everything works as required for a company with this 
>> status.
>> there may be several reasons for these failures are happening, but one thing 
>> I'm sure and I know perfectly well that everyone knows.
>> if we blind in our w

Re: 10.9.1 Disappointing

[Scott B.]

Yup sure have Dave.


On 12/17/2013 19:18, David Tanner wrote:
Oh, you forgot how many times FS will deny that they are aware of a 
problem with their software to the bitter end regardless how many 
times you prove it to them.  Anyone ever experience the famous Jaws 
remark "focus lost"?




Sent from my accessible iPhone

On Dec 17, 2013, at 3:10 PM, Richard Ring > wrote:


I’m about to really annoy the moderators but, thanks Teresa for such 
a well-reasoned post. One thing to keep in mind is, Freedom 
Scientific doesn’t design computers, nor do they design operating 
systems. They design a screen reader that supports an operating 
system whose developers aren’t all that interested in accessibility. 
Yes, there are always problems when you’re an early adopter of a new 
operating system, and yes, there are times when I’m forced to use 
Windows because there is no Mac software that meets my specific 
needs. However, overall, VoiceOver is stable, reliable, and, I’m not 
paying $200 or more just to upgrade the screen reader, let alone the 
operating system!



You can have an off day, but you can't have a day off! ---The Art of 
Fielding

 Sent from my Mac Book Pro
richr...@gmail.com 

On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:21 PM, Teresa Cochran 
mailto:vegaspipistre...@gmail.com>> wrote:



Hi, alll,

I wasn't going to post to this thread, but I've been thinking about 
this issue of accessibility. When I decided to switch to a Mac, I 
knew I had to consider the fact that buying a product off the shelf 
was going to mean risking some accessibility features. Maybe 
mainstream developers are sometimes not aware of how screen-readers 
work on a visceral level. Maybe accessibility will not be as much a 
priority in this case as it would be for an entity like Freedom 
Scientific. However, having tried Linuxx and using various 
screen-readers and desktops on that platform, I still find that 
Voiceover is far more stable and accessible than Orca screen-reader, 
for example. I still explore and use various platforms, and believe 
me, I've seen my share of bugs. So this update for Mac oSX is 
nothing to me. It has some annoyances for sure, but imagine if it 
shut itself off every five minutes or restarted the OS or just plain 
didn't read a good number of apps.


Also, how much are we paying for these OS updates? How much did we 
pay for this last full upgrade? Imagine having to pay an upgrade fee 
every time you wanted to update just the screen-reader alone.


So I think that before one uses software extensively, one has to 
consider some factors. Is this something I want to risk my 
productivity on? If not, should I stay with what i know? Do I like 
to learn new things, and how tolerant am I of bugs in software? How 
much hand-holding do I need? If I buy a product off the shelf, can I 
work around the accessibility glitches that are probably going to 
rear their ugly heads? If not, maybe I should consider getting 
something exclusively blind-friendly if I don't want to put up with 
accessibility issues.


In short, I really think Apple is doing a fantastic job, 
considering. And yes, I would have higher expectations of a Freedom 
Scientific or Humanware.


Just my two bits of currency. :)

Teresa

Sent using Alpine messaging system in Mac OS X Terminal

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013, Buddy Brannan wrote:

BTW, for those who think that Tim Cook just doesn’t give two s**ts 
about accessibility, this is probably well worn a view. Be cynical 
and say it’s just Tim spewing a line or whatever you like, but I 
kind of don’t get that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNEafGCf-kw


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Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Scott B.]

That's so true Dave.  Blind people should be thankful for what they have 
and improve it in a nice manner instead of being asses about it.   
Excuse the language but the truth hurts.



On 12/17/2013 19:42, David Tanner wrote:

Well, Robert it probably does more to hurt all blind users of Apple devices 
than it ever will to help make things better.  But, as I am sure you known 
blind people have a long history of being hateful, spiteful, not appreciating 
what is done for them, and constant complainers.


Sent from my accessible iPhone


On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:53 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:

Hi,

I think the idea that accessibility is less important to Apple since the death 
of Steve Jobs is nothing more than pure speculation and if anyone can prove 
otherwise, I would love to see the evidence. I see no value in such comments.

Robert Carter



On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:42 AM, Scott B.  wrote:

Absolutely right.  They can talking to engineering.  But engeeniering has the 
final say.  I agree since the great Steve Jobs has passed we're probably not 
seeing as much interaction from Accessibility as people saw before.  To sum it 
up very briefly Accessibility is where you take the accessibility suggestions 
or problems.  They either act upon them y supporting you the person who needs 
help or passing it on to the engineering team by escalation. Please also keep 
in mind these are tier 2 support personnel so they can't know everything either 
so be easy on these people.



On 12/17/2013 03:37, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
Of late, I have noticed complaints against the Apple accessibility team as if 
to suggest that we are being ignored.  It seems to be the belief of some that 
the Apple accessibility team fixes accessibility bugs and problems with Voice 
Over.  I do not believe that this is the case.  It is my belief that the Apple 
accessibility team has, in fact, a very limited role at Apple.  Frankly, with 
the passing of the late great Steve Jobs, that role has perhaps demenished 
greatly. I believe that the Apple accessibility team never has had actual 
decision making capacity with respect to actual implementation of fixes for 
Voice Over.  They didn’t even have this power under Steve Jobs.  Unless I am 
very much mistaken, all the accessibility team has any power to do is to 
forward our findings over to the development teams but nothing more.  They 
cannot even tell us whether or not our reports will be acted upon.  Now, this 
last is most likely a part of Apple’s non disclosure policy:  however, I 
suspect that even if this was not so, Apple’s accessibility team would not be 
informed in any case.  In short, it seems that the only function that this 
accessibility team has and will ever have at Apple is not much more than a kind 
of clearing house of feedback from us blind users.  I cannot help wonder how 
many Apple app developmental teams look at submissions from the accessibility 
team and say to themselves, “Oh, no, not again.”.  I suspect that this explains 
why it is that our reports seem to go unheeded.


Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
built-in!

Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray, still a very happy Mac and Iphone 5 user!

--
Scott Berry
Email: sb356...@gmail.com



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Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Krister Ekstrom]

Yeah, and it doesn’t matter if we get what we want, because then we whimper and 
whine about the fact that we have gotten what we want, either it is too late, 
too little, too much or just plain spoken the wrong way. I know that what i now 
will say is gonna offend people and i apologize in advance for that, but if we 
bash Apple accessibility and Apple decides that they don’t want to have 
anything whatsoever to do with the blind community then it’s a catastrophy that 
we deserve. Don’t misunderstand me, pointing to bugs and things that aren’t 
right isn’t wrong and shall be done provided it’s done in a constructive, 
polite and creative way, complaining serves no purpose and in the long run 
could end up really badly for us.
/Krister

18 dec 2013 kl. 03:42 skrev David Tanner :

> Well, Robert it probably does more to hurt all blind users of Apple devices 
> than it ever will to help make things better.  But, as I am sure you known 
> blind people have a long history of being hateful, spiteful, not appreciating 
> what is done for them, and constant complainers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my accessible iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:53 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I think the idea that accessibility is less important to Apple since the 
>> death of Steve Jobs is nothing more than pure speculation and if anyone can 
>> prove otherwise, I would love to see the evidence. I see no value in such 
>> comments.
>> 
>> Robert Carter
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:42 AM, Scott B.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Absolutely right.  They can talking to engineering.  But engeeniering has 
>>> the final say.  I agree since the great Steve Jobs has passed we're 
>>> probably not seeing as much interaction from Accessibility as people saw 
>>> before.  To sum it up very briefly Accessibility is where you take the 
>>> accessibility suggestions or problems.  They either act upon them y 
>>> supporting you the person who needs help or passing it on to the 
>>> engineering team by escalation. Please also keep in mind these are tier 2 
>>> support personnel so they can't know everything either so be easy on these 
>>> people.
>>> 
>>> 
 On 12/17/2013 03:37, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
 Of late, I have noticed complaints against the Apple accessibility team as 
 if to suggest that we are being ignored.  It seems to be the belief of 
 some that the Apple accessibility team fixes accessibility bugs and 
 problems with Voice Over.  I do not believe that this is the case.  It is 
 my belief that the Apple accessibility team has, in fact, a very limited 
 role at Apple.  Frankly, with the passing of the late great Steve Jobs, 
 that role has perhaps demenished greatly. I believe that the Apple 
 accessibility team never has had actual decision making capacity with 
 respect to actual implementation of fixes for Voice Over.  They didn’t 
 even have this power under Steve Jobs.  Unless I am very much mistaken, 
 all the accessibility team has any power to do is to forward our findings 
 over to the development teams but nothing more.  They cannot even tell us 
 whether or not our reports will be acted upon.  Now, this last is most 
 likely a part of Apple’s non disclosure policy:  however, I suspect that 
 even if this was not so, Apple’s accessibility team would not be informed 
 in any case.  In short, it seems that the only function that this 
 accessibility team has and will ever have at Apple is not much more than a 
 kind of clearing house of feedback from us blind users.  I cannot help 
 wonder how many Apple app developmental teams look at submissions from the 
 accessibility team and say to themselves, “Oh, no, not again.”.  I suspect 
 that this explains why it is that our reports seem to go unheeded.
 
 
 Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
 built-in!
 
 Sincerely,
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray, still a very happy Mac and Iphone 5 user!
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Scott Berry
>>> Email: sb356...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
>>> protection is active.
>>> http://www.avast.com
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Jim Gatteys]

Krister!
hopefully when we report bugs and point out problems to apple to be looked into 
or fixed, we maybe are more tactful than here on this list?  I can only hope 
so.  You're right we need to point out bugs but whining to apple won't make a 
difference in the long run.
Jim

On Dec 18, 2013, at 3:52 AM, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:

> Yeah, and it doesn’t matter if we get what we want, because then we whimper 
> and whine about the fact that we have gotten what we want, either it is too 
> late, too little, too much or just plain spoken the wrong way. I know that 
> what i now will say is gonna offend people and i apologize in advance for 
> that, but if we bash Apple accessibility and Apple decides that they don’t 
> want to have anything whatsoever to do with the blind community then it’s a 
> catastrophy that we deserve. Don’t misunderstand me, pointing to bugs and 
> things that aren’t right isn’t wrong and shall be done provided it’s done in 
> a constructive, polite and creative way, complaining serves no purpose and in 
> the long run could end up really badly for us.
> /Krister
> 
> 18 dec 2013 kl. 03:42 skrev David Tanner :
> 
>> Well, Robert it probably does more to hurt all blind users of Apple devices 
>> than it ever will to help make things better.  But, as I am sure you known 
>> blind people have a long history of being hateful, spiteful, not 
>> appreciating what is done for them, and constant complainers.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my accessible iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:53 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I think the idea that accessibility is less important to Apple since the 
>>> death of Steve Jobs is nothing more than pure speculation and if anyone can 
>>> prove otherwise, I would love to see the evidence. I see no value in such 
>>> comments.
>>> 
>>> Robert Carter
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:42 AM, Scott B.  wrote:
 
 Absolutely right.  They can talking to engineering.  But engeeniering has 
 the final say.  I agree since the great Steve Jobs has passed we're 
 probably not seeing as much interaction from Accessibility as people saw 
 before.  To sum it up very briefly Accessibility is where you take the 
 accessibility suggestions or problems.  They either act upon them y 
 supporting you the person who needs help or passing it on to the 
 engineering team by escalation. Please also keep in mind these are tier 2 
 support personnel so they can't know everything either so be easy on these 
 people.
 
 
> On 12/17/2013 03:37, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
> Of late, I have noticed complaints against the Apple accessibility team 
> as if to suggest that we are being ignored.  It seems to be the belief of 
> some that the Apple accessibility team fixes accessibility bugs and 
> problems with Voice Over.  I do not believe that this is the case.  It is 
> my belief that the Apple accessibility team has, in fact, a very limited 
> role at Apple.  Frankly, with the passing of the late great Steve Jobs, 
> that role has perhaps demenished greatly. I believe that the Apple 
> accessibility team never has had actual decision making capacity with 
> respect to actual implementation of fixes for Voice Over.  They didn’t 
> even have this power under Steve Jobs.  Unless I am very much mistaken, 
> all the accessibility team has any power to do is to forward our findings 
> over to the development teams but nothing more.  They cannot even tell us 
> whether or not our reports will be acted upon.  Now, this last is most 
> likely a part of Apple’s non disclosure policy:  however, I suspect that 
> even if this was not so, Apple’s accessibility team would not be informed 
> in any case.  In short, it seems that the only function that this 
> accessibility team has and will ever have at Apple is not much more than 
> a kind of clearing house of feedback from us blind users.  I cannot help 
> wonder how many Apple app developmental teams look at submissions from 
> the accessibility team and say to themselves, “Oh, no, not again.”.  I 
> suspect that this explains why it is that our reports seem to go unheeded.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
> built-in!
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray, still a very happy Mac and Iphone 5 user!
 
 -- 
 Scott Berry
 Email: sb356...@gmail.com
 
 
 
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creating business cards

[Jim Gatteys]

Hi all!
I believe I posted this message to applevis not long ago so if you've seen it 
sorry for that.
I have some card stock and a good printer and in the past have created my own 
business cards.  Now that I am on a mac it is a bit different for me.  I have 
pages but hardly ever use it.  Guess there is no time like the present to do 
that.  Does anybody have any experience in creating business cards with pages 
or some other app?
Maybe there is software out there and I just haven't seen it.
Jim

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a new mac book user needing a help for folders.

[Dionipher Herrera]

can somebody help me find the user folder for my mac book pro, im new to 
mac book so i need a lot of help from you all guys.. i want to transfer my 
my music to the itunes folder but i cant find it. thanks.

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Re: a new mac book user needing a help for folders.

[Dave O.]

To get to the user (home) folder, hit Command Shift H.

You should also look at the Go menu in Finder. It shows you all kinds of 
folders you may want to go to, and the keyboard shortcuts to get there.

In Finder, hit VO M, then arrow right a few times to the go menu and then 
arrow down through the menu items.

Dave

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Re: 10.9.1 Disappointing

[Mario Navarro]

hi jonathan.
okay. the solution for the apple to be more aware and give more importance and 
feel themselves obliged to do more and better for us blind community would have 
to undergo another kind of we take strong and effective steps.
I thought I'd create a petition stating the apple of our discontent, and 
explain our observation points and with a very well-written text where it did 
mention the most important points to be highlighted and that Apple felt they 
would have to change and improve their work productivity for accessibility.
What makes me most sad is that I have not sufficiently trained to draw a 
perfect knowledge of English text.
and even worse is that I know that not all blind would sign it because not 
everyone want to do by not thinking like me and why not have the same desire to 
change what is wrong.
 if we do not fight for our rights, who will go for us?
and tell you which is why we continue to think so, that such situations will 
always be present in our lives as a shade darker than our own blindness.
but what we do  if  blind are guilty of this happening ...
we're always waiting to fall in all of heaven for granted and say amen to 
everything and onwe have to be thankful for the alms they give us.
so it becomes very complicated to be treated with respect and to be recognized 
with the rights to which we are entitled.
well, maybe I have to study hard for English writing ability I have to take my 
own steps and not having to be dependent on people not wanting to change their 
lives.
thanks jonathan.

cheers.
No dia 18/12/2013, às 06:28, Jonathan Mosen  escreveu:

> Hi Mario, thanks for the very kind words...We are fortunate to have plenty of 
> thoughtful people on the list who've made some great contributions.
> In response to what you've said, and the contributions of a few others today, 
> I'd make the following points.
> Apple is a mainstream company, but by virtue of the fact that they've decided 
> to produce screen readers, that also makes them a screen reader company and I 
> think that means they should be held to no less a standard than any other 
> screen reader company. In fact, you could argue they may be held to a 
> slightly higher one, because if the cross-functional teams are working right, 
> they can build in accessibility from the ground up when a new OS is being 
> designed which gives them an advantage.
> I think also that as paying customers, we're entitled to be concerned when 
> something that worked well before does not work as well now, at least for 
> some of us.
> I think it's also important that there is genuine dialogue that goes on 
> between a relatively small, niche community like ours, and Apple. People have 
> to pay sums that for many blind people are quite significant, in order to 
> beta test Apples operating systems and offer comment at a time when it can 
> hopefully make a difference. Assuming some blind people are doing this, and 
> bugs are being reported, some decision is being made somewhere not to give 
> these bugs a high enough priority to be fixed. I was a product manager for 10 
> years, so I know that that's all part of the process, a company can't fix 
> every single issue and you have to make the tough call. I think though that 
> with some of the efficiency hits we're taking, perhaps there's a 
> misunderstanding about how important some of these issues actually are.
> I don't think Apple is evil or anything like that, nor are they saints. I 
> think they were motivated to really grab the accessibility bull by the horns 
> through a mixture of altruism and business pragmatism, and they've done a 
> great job. I'd just like to see some new vehicles for communication with our 
> community emerge.
> I have some ideas about this and will take some ideas forward, as they have 
> fine products and have done more to embrace the concept of universal design 
> than any other company in the world.
> I know it's easy to get frustrated, but venting without thinking about how we 
> can be a constructive part of the solution won't make any difference either.
> Take care and thanks again.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org
> 
> On 18/12/2013, at 5:01 pm, Mario Navarro  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> hi ,jonathan.
>> jonathan do not need to respond to this post, but let me tell you one thing 
>> friend.
>> this is why I admire you and consider you the smartest blind in the world 
>> you have an open mind, and think with a universal philosophy.
>> and still respect you more because you did not fear anything or anyone and 
>> speak what 's on your mind without fear of anything.
>> and you know why you fear not, because you're a super intelligent, 
>> autonomous, and not need favors from anyone else. blinds all the world knows 
>> you, admire you and respect you.
>> and if they do it is because you have become a super independent person and 
>> think with your own head without being forced 

Re: huge mail problems still

[Maria and Joe Chapman]

HI.  that’s vo j not command j.  I’m not even sure what that command does.

I hope this helps 
Maria and Joe Chapman
bubbygirl1...@gmail.com



On 18 Dec 2013, at 8:22 am, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:

> Please tell meow you are reading mail in standard view?  I just press enter 
> on each message once they have been deleted.  Is there another better way?  I 
> don’t do command J.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Kawal.
> On 17 Dec 2013, at 21:09, Lisette Wesseling  
> wrote:
> 
>> Like Robert, I am noticing no issues with mail in Mavericks. I am in 
>> standard view with preview pane turned on.
>> I am interacting with the messages table and it all works really fine. I 
>> know some people prefer classic view and/or their preview pain turned off. 
>> Maybe this is the difference.
>> I just wanted it to be known that Robert is not the only one with no issues, 
>> so it’s not unique to his system. I’m not saying there aren’t problems for 
>> others, but maybe the standard view/preview pane thing on is part of the 
>> answer?
>> 
>> Lisette
>> On 18/12/2013, at 6:59 am, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> When I am on the messages list and I press VO+J the text of the mail 
>>> message starts reading immediately. If there is a link or something in the 
>>> message that I need to activate, I simply down arrow to it. I have been 
>>> reading mail this way at least since Lion and certainly in Mountain Lion. 
>>> Mavericks works exactly the same with the way that I read mail that 
>>> Mountain Lion did. Mavericks hasn’t broken anything for me.
>>> 
>>> Apparently if it has broken things for others, you must be going about the 
>>> reading of mail differently than how I am doing it.
>>> 
>>> Robert Carter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 11:51 AM, alia robinson  wrote:
>>> 
 that is my point. I can’t press vo/j to read mail anymore because of the 
 one row added announcements that didn’t used to happen, and if you open it 
 with enter or command o you aren’t in the text field to be able to 
 interact you either have to vo down and interact with text, or use the 
 item chooser. hope this makes sense. It is vo/j that is broken. 
 
 Alia
 On Dec 17, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Maria and Joe Chapman 
  wrote:
 
> HI.  when you press vo j to read a message, turn quick nav on and you 
> should be able to interact with the text of the message. to select part 
> of a message to copy and paste press enter on the message to open it.  I 
> hope this helps.
> 
 
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Re: huge mail problems still

[Maria and Joe Chapman]

Hi.  not having any problems in classic view either.  I didn’t do anything to 
the preview pain though.
Warm regards and blessings 
Maria, Joe and FurBabies
Email:  iMessage:bubbygirl1...@gmail.com



On 18 Dec 2013, at 8:09 am, Lisette Wesseling  
wrote:

> Like Robert, I am noticing no issues with mail in Mavericks. I am in standard 
> view with preview pane turned on.
> I am interacting with the messages table and it all works really fine. I know 
> some people prefer classic view and/or their preview pain turned off. Maybe 
> this is the difference.
> I just wanted it to be known that Robert is not the only one with no issues, 
> so it’s not unique to his system. I’m not saying there aren’t problems for 
> others, but maybe the standard view/preview pane thing on is part of the 
> answer?
> 
> Lisette
> On 18/12/2013, at 6:59 am, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> When I am on the messages list and I press VO+J the text of the mail message 
>> starts reading immediately. If there is a link or something in the message 
>> that I need to activate, I simply down arrow to it. I have been reading mail 
>> this way at least since Lion and certainly in Mountain Lion. Mavericks works 
>> exactly the same with the way that I read mail that Mountain Lion did. 
>> Mavericks hasn’t broken anything for me.
>> 
>> Apparently if it has broken things for others, you must be going about the 
>> reading of mail differently than how I am doing it.
>> 
>> Robert Carter
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 11:51 AM, alia robinson  wrote:
>> 
>>> that is my point. I can’t press vo/j to read mail anymore because of the 
>>> one row added announcements that didn’t used to happen, and if you open it 
>>> with enter or command o you aren’t in the text field to be able to interact 
>>> you either have to vo down and interact with text, or use the item chooser. 
>>> hope this makes sense. It is vo/j that is broken. 
>>> 
>>> Alia
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Maria and Joe Chapman 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 HI.  when you press vo j to read a message, turn quick nav on and you 
 should be able to interact with the text of the message. to select part of 
 a message to copy and paste press enter on the message to open it.  I hope 
 this helps.
 
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: huge mail problems still

[ROBERT CARTER]

Hi Mary,

I am using standard view with threading.

Robert Carter


On Dec 17, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:

> Hi Robert,
> Are you using standard or classic view? And are you using threaded view or 
> not?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 2:59 PM, Eileen Misrahi  wrote:
> 
>> Hi Robert, 
>> 
>> Thanks for your tip on reading mail using VO-J. I am relatively new to the 
>> Mac and I have been using the enter key, but needed to use CMD-W to close 
>> the email and then use the backspace key to delete it. Your method to me is 
>> more efficient when reviewing a tremendous amount of emails. 
>> 
>> thanks again for the tip. 
>> 
>> Eileen 
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 9:59 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> When I am on the messages list and I press VO+J the text of the mail 
>>> message starts reading immediately. If there is a link or something in the 
>>> message that I need to activate, I simply down arrow to it. I have been 
>>> reading mail this way at least since Lion and certainly in Mountain Lion. 
>>> Mavericks works exactly the same with the way that I read mail that 
>>> Mountain Lion did. Mavericks hasn’t broken anything for me.
>>> 
>>> Apparently if it has broken things for others, you must be going about the 
>>> reading of mail differently than how I am doing it.
>>> 
>>> Robert Carter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 11:51 AM, alia robinson  wrote:
>>> 
 that is my point. I can’t press vo/j to read mail anymore because of the 
 one row added announcements that didn’t used to happen, and if you open it 
 with enter or command o you aren’t in the text field to be able to 
 interact you either have to vo down and interact with text, or use the 
 item chooser. hope this makes sense. It is vo/j that is broken. 
 
 Alia
 On Dec 17, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Maria and Joe Chapman 
  wrote:
 
> HI.  when you press vo j to read a message, turn quick nav on and you 
> should be able to interact with the text of the message. to select part 
> of a message to copy and paste press enter on the message to open it.  I 
> hope this helps.
 
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>>> 
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>> 
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Re: huge mail problems still

[ROBERT CARTER]

Hi,

I am also using gmail with IMAP. I have the popup setting that says check for 
new messages set to automatic. I do not have the problem of constantly getting 
interrupted when new mail comes in. Perhaps you receive a lot more mail than I 
do but this just isn’t an issue for me.

Robert Carter


On Dec 17, 2013, at 5:16 PM, alia robinson  wrote:

> don’t think you can with gmail and imap. I checked that setting and I just 
> get email anyway. 
> 
> Alia
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Rhonda Hornbacher  
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> You may want to check manually fetch mail, that is how I have it set because 
>> messages kept coming in and interrupting .
> 
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Re: huge mail problems still

[Jim Gatteys]

It seems like the only time I ever hear the "one row added" is when I am 
interacted with the message.  If not and just reading by pressing enter on it I 
never hear that.

On Dec 18, 2013, at 7:32 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I am also using gmail with IMAP. I have the popup setting that says check for 
> new messages set to automatic. I do not have the problem of constantly 
> getting interrupted when new mail comes in. Perhaps you receive a lot more 
> mail than I do but this just isn’t an issue for me.
> 
> Robert Carter
> 
> 
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 5:16 PM, alia robinson  wrote:
> 
>> don’t think you can with gmail and imap. I checked that setting and I just 
>> get email anyway. 
>> 
>> Alia
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Rhonda Hornbacher  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> You may want to check manually fetch mail, that is how I have it set 
>>> because messages kept coming in and interrupting .
>> 
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Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

I think I agree with half of this.  But just keep in mind.  Blind consumers are 
no different from any other consumer.  When you pay for something, and it 
doesn’t work or, work the way you expect it to, some will act like asses.  I 
don’t think blind people should be anymore or less thankful at this moment.  I 
think we should be happy that Apple offers more than the bare bones 
requirements for accessibility, and have an active role in inclusive design 
across their products.  But, when people are angry or disappointed, they often 
let their emotions run away with them.  So I think Apple ditching accessibility 
because a few blind people tell them some bad things is absurd.  They are big 
boys and girls over there.  Why would they let the minority of users dissuade 
them from their work?  I would assume most of their feedback from Voiceover 
users is presented in a factual, comprehensive, and more or less polite way.  
These are the people they are listening to.  Not the people who rant and carry 
on with no true point.  Know engineer worth their salt, either software or 
hardware doesn’t want to fix things.  That’s their overall goal.  I don’t think 
they are quitting because some folks send them a you suck e-mail.  They are 
getting payed after all.  lol.


Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Dec 18, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:

> Yeah, and it doesn’t matter if we get what we want, because then we whimper 
> and whine about the fact that we have gotten what we want, either it is too 
> late, too little, too much or just plain spoken the wrong way. I know that 
> what i now will say is gonna offend people and i apologize in advance for 
> that, but if we bash Apple accessibility and Apple decides that they don’t 
> want to have anything whatsoever to do with the blind community then it’s a 
> catastrophy that we deserve. Don’t misunderstand me, pointing to bugs and 
> things that aren’t right isn’t wrong and shall be done provided it’s done in 
> a constructive, polite and creative way, complaining serves no purpose and in 
> the long run could end up really badly for us.
> /Krister
> 
> 18 dec 2013 kl. 03:42 skrev David Tanner :
> 
>> Well, Robert it probably does more to hurt all blind users of Apple devices 
>> than it ever will to help make things better.  But, as I am sure you known 
>> blind people have a long history of being hateful, spiteful, not 
>> appreciating what is done for them, and constant complainers.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my accessible iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:53 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I think the idea that accessibility is less important to Apple since the 
>>> death of Steve Jobs is nothing more than pure speculation and if anyone can 
>>> prove otherwise, I would love to see the evidence. I see no value in such 
>>> comments.
>>> 
>>> Robert Carter
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:42 AM, Scott B.  wrote:
 
 Absolutely right.  They can talking to engineering.  But engeeniering has 
 the final say.  I agree since the great Steve Jobs has passed we're 
 probably not seeing as much interaction from Accessibility as people saw 
 before.  To sum it up very briefly Accessibility is where you take the 
 accessibility suggestions or problems.  They either act upon them y 
 supporting you the person who needs help or passing it on to the 
 engineering team by escalation. Please also keep in mind these are tier 2 
 support personnel so they can't know everything either so be easy on these 
 people.
 
 
> On 12/17/2013 03:37, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
> Of late, I have noticed complaints against the Apple accessibility team 
> as if to suggest that we are being ignored.  It seems to be the belief of 
> some that the Apple accessibility team fixes accessibility bugs and 
> problems with Voice Over.  I do not believe that this is the case.  It is 
> my belief that the Apple accessibility team has, in fact, a very limited 
> role at Apple.  Frankly, with the passing of the late great Steve Jobs, 
> that role has perhaps demenished greatly. I believe that the Apple 
> accessibility team never has had actual decision making capacity with 
> respect to actual implementation of fixes for Voice Over.  They didn’t 
> even have this power under Steve Jobs.  Unless I am very much mistaken, 
> all the accessibility team has any power to do is to forward our findings 
> over to the development teams but nothing more.  They cannot even tell us 
> whether or not our reports will be acted upon.  Now, this last is most 
> likely a part of Apple’s non disclosure policy:  however, I suspect that 
> even if this was not so, Apple’s accessibility team would not be informed 
> in any case.  In short, it seems that the only function that this 
> accessibility team has and will ever have a

Word Service

[Jim Gatteys]

Hi all!
I just found the coolest app/service.  I was looking for a way to alphabetize a 
textedit file that I keep my reading list in. I found this thing called Word 
Service which adds many different things to your services menu.  Maybe you all 
already knew about this but I had never heard of it.  It is located at:
http://www.devontechnologies.com/products/freeware.html

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RE: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices

[Bill Holton]

Thanks much for this.  I think I have an old optical cable in a box somewhere 
from an old stereo system, but as I recall it has the squared optical 
connectors on both ends.  So will probably need to pick up the cable, assuming 
my USB sound card supports it.
Bill


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Chris Blouch
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:24 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices

Macs from the last decade or so have had their headphone jack also be an 
optical audio out as well. I'm not sure when they started putting them 
on all the models but I know the MacPro tower machines from 2003 had 
optical outs. Anyway, you'll need a mini-TOSLink cable to fit the 
headphone jack connector and then the usual square optical connector on 
the other end goes to whatever receiver is driving your 5.1 speaker 
system. Here is an example of the cable needed for $3:

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022902&p_id=1557&seq=1&format=2

I have this on my MacMini at home and the family uses it for watching 
DVDs and such with all the sound goodness.

CB

On 12/17/13 1:29 PM, Bill Holton wrote:
> Hi.
> I am not sure if the USB sound card I have supports an optical in.  What 
> would the jack look like?  And which mini port would I use?  That certainly 
> would make it more responsive, I would imagine.  Thanks.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Blouch
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:10 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices
>
> VMWare is a layer on top of the MacOS so as much as possible they try to
> recycle what OSX already does. So the Windows network is just piped
> through whatever your Mac is using and apparently the same thing for
> sound. My comment was referring to using the built-in optical connector
> to send 5.1 sound to your receiver rather than some kind of USB thingie.
>
> CB
>
> On 12/17/13 9:06 AM, Bill Holton wrote:
>> Hi.
>> I wound up speaking to someone at VM tech support, who told me it can't be 
>> done with the configuration I have.  I am running a boot camp partition, and 
>> have VM grabbing that.  Ironically, however, as soon as I finished the call 
>> and rebooted my system, it started working just like I want it to.  The USB 
>> sound card still shows disabled  in the VM menus.  I am told that my sound 
>> isn't using it through Windows, it is sending the sound back to my Mac and 
>> using the Mac's sound.  I do not understand this fully, but hey, it's 
>> working.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Blouch
>> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 5:15 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices
>>
>> If you are connecting your Mac Mini to a 5.1 surround sound system, can
>> you just plug it in directly and skip the USB sound card stuff? Simpler
>> might make it work better.
>>
>> CB
>>
>> On 12/7/13 2:14 PM, Bill Holton wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>> I have installed my Bootcamp partion as a VM machine.  I have done this on 
>>> a Mac Mini, and I have not only the Mini's internal speakers, but also a 
>>> USB sound card attached to 5.1 speakers set.  My Windows partition only 
>>> speaks in the Mini speaker, the Mac through the USB.  If I go to the 
>>> devices tab and enable the USB sound card, this reverses, Windows uses the 
>>> 5.1 and the Mac uses the mini speakers.  I suspect there is something  I 
>>> need to do in the sharing option, but since this is a USB sound card I am 
>>> not preciesly sure how to go about this.  Any help appreciated.
>>> Bill
>>>

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Translation app

[Jessica D]

as anyone heard of my language pro, i tested the free version, and it does 
exactly what i need; copy and paste. it $4.99 in the app store.
should i get it?works perfectly with voiceover. the full version is 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 17, 2013, at 3:23 PM, Chris Blouch  wrote:
> 
> Macs from the last decade or so have had their headphone jack also be an 
> optical audio out as well. I'm not sure when they started putting them on all 
> the models but I know the MacPro tower machines from 2003 had optical outs. 
> Anyway, you'll need a mini-TOSLink cable to fit the headphone jack connector 
> and then the usual square optical connector on the other end goes to whatever 
> receiver is driving your 5.1 speaker system. Here is an example of the cable 
> needed for $3:
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022902&p_id=1557&seq=1&format=2
> 
> I have this on my MacMini at home and the family uses it for watching DVDs 
> and such with all the sound goodness.
> 
> CB
> 
>> On 12/17/13 1:29 PM, Bill Holton wrote:
>> Hi.
>> I am not sure if the USB sound card I have supports an optical in.  What 
>> would the jack look like?  And which mini port would I use?  That certainly 
>> would make it more responsive, I would imagine.  Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Blouch
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:10 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices
>> 
>> VMWare is a layer on top of the MacOS so as much as possible they try to
>> recycle what OSX already does. So the Windows network is just piped
>> through whatever your Mac is using and apparently the same thing for
>> sound. My comment was referring to using the built-in optical connector
>> to send 5.1 sound to your receiver rather than some kind of USB thingie.
>> 
>> CB
>> 
>>> On 12/17/13 9:06 AM, Bill Holton wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>> I wound up speaking to someone at VM tech support, who told me it can't be 
>>> done with the configuration I have.  I am running a boot camp partition, 
>>> and have VM grabbing that.  Ironically, however, as soon as I finished the 
>>> call and rebooted my system, it started working just like I want it to.  
>>> The USB sound card still shows disabled  in the VM menus.  I am told that 
>>> my sound isn't using it through Windows, it is sending the sound back to my 
>>> Mac and using the Mac's sound.  I do not understand this fully, but hey, 
>>> it's working.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Blouch
>>> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 5:15 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices
>>> 
>>> If you are connecting your Mac Mini to a 5.1 surround sound system, can
>>> you just plug it in directly and skip the USB sound card stuff? Simpler
>>> might make it work better.
>>> 
>>> CB
>>> 
 On 12/7/13 2:14 PM, Bill Holton wrote:
 Hi.
 I have installed my Bootcamp partion as a VM machine.  I have done this on 
 a Mac Mini, and I have not only the Mini's internal speakers, but also a 
 USB sound card attached to 5.1 speakers set.  My Windows partition only 
 speaks in the Mini speaker, the Mac through the USB.  If I go to the 
 devices tab and enable the USB sound card, this reverses, Windows uses the 
 5.1 and the Mac uses the mini speakers.  I suspect there is something  I 
 need to do in the sharing option, but since this is a USB sound card I am 
 not preciesly sure how to go about this.  Any help appreciated.
 Bill
> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices

[Terje Strømberg]

Maybe you can find information about your sound card by using google and type 
"technical specifications" and the name of your usb sound card or owners manual.

Take care
 
18. des. 2013 kl. 15:59 skrev Bill Holton :

> Thanks much for this.  I think I have an old optical cable in a box somewhere 
> from an old stereo system, but as I recall it has the squared optical 
> connectors on both ends.  So will probably need to pick up the cable, 
> assuming my USB sound card supports it.
> Bill
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Blouch
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:24 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices
> 
> Macs from the last decade or so have had their headphone jack also be an 
> optical audio out as well. I'm not sure when they started putting them 
> on all the models but I know the MacPro tower machines from 2003 had 
> optical outs. Anyway, you'll need a mini-TOSLink cable to fit the 
> headphone jack connector and then the usual square optical connector on 
> the other end goes to whatever receiver is driving your 5.1 speaker 
> system. Here is an example of the cable needed for $3:
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022902&p_id=1557&seq=1&format=2
> 
> I have this on my MacMini at home and the family uses it for watching 
> DVDs and such with all the sound goodness.
> 
> CB
> 
> On 12/17/13 1:29 PM, Bill Holton wrote:
>> Hi.
>> I am not sure if the USB sound card I have supports an optical in.  What 
>> would the jack look like?  And which mini port would I use?  That certainly 
>> would make it more responsive, I would imagine.  Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Blouch
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:10 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices
>> 
>> VMWare is a layer on top of the MacOS so as much as possible they try to
>> recycle what OSX already does. So the Windows network is just piped
>> through whatever your Mac is using and apparently the same thing for
>> sound. My comment was referring to using the built-in optical connector
>> to send 5.1 sound to your receiver rather than some kind of USB thingie.
>> 
>> CB
>> 
>> On 12/17/13 9:06 AM, Bill Holton wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>> I wound up speaking to someone at VM tech support, who told me it can't be 
>>> done with the configuration I have.  I am running a boot camp partition, 
>>> and have VM grabbing that.  Ironically, however, as soon as I finished the 
>>> call and rebooted my system, it started working just like I want it to.  
>>> The USB sound card still shows disabled  in the VM menus.  I am told that 
>>> my sound isn't using it through Windows, it is sending the sound back to my 
>>> Mac and using the Mac's sound.  I do not understand this fully, but hey, 
>>> it's working.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Blouch
>>> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 5:15 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Need help with VM Fusion and sound devices
>>> 
>>> If you are connecting your Mac Mini to a 5.1 surround sound system, can
>>> you just plug it in directly and skip the USB sound card stuff? Simpler
>>> might make it work better.
>>> 
>>> CB
>>> 
>>> On 12/7/13 2:14 PM, Bill Holton wrote:
 Hi.
 I have installed my Bootcamp partion as a VM machine.  I have done this on 
 a Mac Mini, and I have not only the Mini's internal speakers, but also a 
 USB sound card attached to 5.1 speakers set.  My Windows partition only 
 speaks in the Mini speaker, the Mac through the USB.  If I go to the 
 devices tab and enable the USB sound card, this reverses, Windows uses the 
 5.1 and the Mac uses the mini speakers.  I suspect there is something  I 
 need to do in the sharing option, but since this is a USB sound card I am 
 not preciesly sure how to go about this.  Any help appreciated.
 Bill
 
> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: huge mail problems still

[alia robinson]

fine, but it is for me. I just thought others might want to report it to 
accessibility as I did. I get about 2000 mails a day, some more than 30 pages 
in length. you can see how I would be constantly interupted. 

Alia
On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:32 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I am also using gmail with IMAP. I have the popup setting that says check for 
> new messages set to automatic. I do not have the problem of constantly 
> getting interrupted when new mail comes in. Perhaps you receive a lot more 
> mail than I do but this just isn’t an issue for me.

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Re: emojis

[Chris Blouch]

Hmm. I can't really imagine a way as they are real characters in the 
text. Sort of like asking to have voiceover ignore the letters B, M and 
S. That's just a level of configuration detail I've not run across in a 
screen reader.


CB

On 12/18/13 3:21 AM, May and Noah wrote:

Trying once again.

I got to hear what emojis are, but no one answered my question on how to make 
it so voiceover does not announce them. Is this possible or *smiles* maybe no 
one knows that answer?

May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca



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Re: emojis

[Jessica D]

did you see the message i just sent?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 18, 2013, at 10:20 AM, Chris Blouch  wrote:
> 
> Hmm. I can't really imagine a way as they are real characters in the text. 
> Sort of like asking to have voiceover ignore the letters B, M and S. That's 
> just a level of configuration detail I've not run across in a screen reader.
> 
> CB
> 
>> On 12/18/13 3:21 AM, May and Noah wrote:
>> Trying once again.
>> 
>> I got to hear what emojis are, but no one answered my question on how to 
>> make it so voiceover does not announce them. Is this possible or *smiles* 
>> maybe no one knows that answer?
>> 
>> May and Prince Noah
>> www.canadianlynx.ca
> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: Word Service

[Maria and Joe Chapman]

HI.  thanks lots for this.  I didn’t know about this app or service either the 
read me file says to put the app in the services folder.  is that all I have to 
do?

thanks .  
regards
Maria and crew from australia
email:
bubbygirl1...@gmail.com
check out 
www.95-the-mix.com
where we play lots of great music




On 19 Dec 2013, at 1:55 am, Jim Gatteys  wrote:

> Hi all!
> I just found the coolest app/service.  I was looking for a way to alphabetize 
> a textedit file that I keep my reading list in. I found this thing called 
> Word Service which adds many different things to your services menu.  Maybe 
> you all already knew about this but I had never heard of it.  It is located 
> at:
> http://www.devontechnologies.com/products/freeware.html
> 
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Re: i text express question

[Maria and Joe Chapman]

Hi.  this is awesome and very good instructions.  I could never figure out how 
to access bookmarks in iText express. 
regards
Maria and crew from australia
email:
bubbygirl1...@gmail.com
check out 
www.95-the-mix.com
where we play lots of great music




On 17 Dec 2013, at 2:27 am, Andrew Lamanche  wrote:

> Dear Caitlyn,
> 
> I’ve just played with the bookmark feature in iText, and I think I have had a 
> positive result. I’ve created a bookmark by hitting command+shift+m. You will 
> be in a dialogue where on the very left you have a table of all the bookmarks 
> you may have created and when you move right, you will find a text field into 
> which some text is automatically entered, i.e. a few words of the line at 
> which your cursor is located. You can change this text and write whatever 
> series of words you wish here, and move to the right to add the bookmark or 
> cancel or delete a bookmark, I assume one of the bookmarks which may already 
> be in your table. 
> 
> In order to jump to any of your bookmarks, I think you have to make them 
> visible first. The shortcut key combination command+option+m on my macbook 
> air, places the bookmarks table  next to the toolbar, just to the right of 
> the toolbar. But it is not easy to find them. Now in order to find it, I had 
> to stop interacting with my text by pressing vo+shift+up arrow. Then I jumped 
> to the toolbar on the left and then vo+right arrow once at which point I 
> heard voiceover say “drawer area”. I interacted with the drawer area and I 
> found the table of bookmarks there and the bookmark button which you don’t 
> actually need because it only activates the bookmark menu which you can get 
> to with command+shift+m. 
> 
> Then I interacted with the table of bookmarks, placed my vo cursor on the 
> bookmark I wanted, then routed mouse cursor to the voiceover cursor with 
> vo+command+f5, double-checked with vo+f5 command to make sure the mouse 
> cursor was on the bookmark and then I performed the mouse click with 
> vo+shift+space bar. 
> 
> Then I stopped interacting with the table and the drawer area and moved to 
> the right until I heard scroll area. This is the area where your text 
> document is. Interact with it, and you should be where your bookmark was 
> created. It worked for me. I must thank you for inspiring me to explore this 
> feature. Otherwise I’d never had known that this can be accomplished. 
> 
> Hope it will work for you too, and hope that my explanation has not confused 
> you.
> 
> Andrew
> 
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Re: Latest Prizmo is relatively smooth

[Maria and Joe Chapman]

HI.  can you select an copy the text in to say a text edit file?

thanks 
Warm regards and blessings 
Maria, Joe and FurBabies
Email:  iMessage:bubbygirl1...@gmail.com



On 16 Dec 2013, at 12:16 pm, Alex Hall  wrote:

> Hi all,
> I got Prizmo for Mac a while ago thanks to a series of promo codes they were 
> giving out on Twitter. When I got it, it was pretty bad and not at all an 
> efficient experience. I just did a scan with their latest update; it is still 
> not perfect, but they have come a long way.
> 
> First, in Prizmo's accessibility preferences, you can enable auto-OCR, so 
> when a scan completes it will run OCR without you needing to do anything. 
> Just bring up the window chooser, go to the "untitled window, new" item, and 
> your text is there.
> 
> Second, note that Prizmo breaks up text based on paragraphs, so you will have 
> a bunch of text fields with one paragraph each. You may need to stop 
> interacting with the first one to read the rest.
> 
> So, is it Docuscan or Abbyy? I don't know, I have never used them. But is it 
> better than it was? Most certainly, and the devs do take accessibility into 
> consideration. The OCR percentage never used to be accessible, now it is; 
> there did not used to be an auto-OCR option, now there is; the scanner 
> selection list was barely accessible, now it works perfectly; and so on. 
> Plus, it is only $50, by far the cheapest OCR solution for the Mac I know of. 
> Follow @Prizmo on Twitter and you might see a promo code giveaway again this 
> year. It's certainly worth a try. Plus, the OCR itself is quite good, at 
> least in my limited tests.
> 
> 
> Have a great day,
> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
> mehg...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Word Service

[Jim Gatteys]

Yes and then you'll have to enable the keyboard shortcuts for those services 
that you want from the system preferences.  
On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Maria and Joe Chapman  
wrote:

> HI.  thanks lots for this.  I didn’t know about this app or service either 
> the read me file says to put the app in the services folder.  is that all I 
> have to do?
> 
> thanks .  
>   regards
> Maria and crew from australia
> email:
> bubbygirl1...@gmail.com
> check out 
> www.95-the-mix.com
> where we play lots of great music
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 19 Dec 2013, at 1:55 am, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
> 
>> Hi all!
>> I just found the coolest app/service.  I was looking for a way to 
>> alphabetize a textedit file that I keep my reading list in. I found this 
>> thing called Word Service which adds many different things to your services 
>> menu.  Maybe you all already knew about this but I had never heard of it.  
>> It is located at:
>> http://www.devontechnologies.com/products/freeware.html
>> 
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Re: Latest Prizmo is relatively smooth

[Alex Hall]

I haven't tried, but the text is in edit fields so i imagine so. If that fails, 
there is always that very useful "copy last spoken phrase to clipboard" 
command, vo-shift-c. Also, Prizmo does allow exporting, but again I haven't 
used it. I usually just need to know what is on a paper, not save that text to 
be used later.
On Dec 18, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Maria and Joe Chapman  
wrote:

> HI.  can you select an copy the text in to say a text edit file?
> 
> thanks 
> Warm regards and blessings 
> Maria, Joe and FurBabies
> Email:  iMessage:bubbygirl1...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> On 16 Dec 2013, at 12:16 pm, Alex Hall  wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> I got Prizmo for Mac a while ago thanks to a series of promo codes they were 
>> giving out on Twitter. When I got it, it was pretty bad and not at all an 
>> efficient experience. I just did a scan with their latest update; it is 
>> still not perfect, but they have come a long way.
>> 
>> First, in Prizmo's accessibility preferences, you can enable auto-OCR, so 
>> when a scan completes it will run OCR without you needing to do anything. 
>> Just bring up the window chooser, go to the "untitled window, new" item, and 
>> your text is there.
>> 
>> Second, note that Prizmo breaks up text based on paragraphs, so you will 
>> have a bunch of text fields with one paragraph each. You may need to stop 
>> interacting with the first one to read the rest.
>> 
>> So, is it Docuscan or Abbyy? I don't know, I have never used them. But is it 
>> better than it was? Most certainly, and the devs do take accessibility into 
>> consideration. The OCR percentage never used to be accessible, now it is; 
>> there did not used to be an auto-OCR option, now there is; the scanner 
>> selection list was barely accessible, now it works perfectly; and so on. 
>> Plus, it is only $50, by far the cheapest OCR solution for the Mac I know 
>> of. Follow @Prizmo on Twitter and you might see a promo code giveaway again 
>> this year. It's certainly worth a try. Plus, the OCR itself is quite good, 
>> at least in my limited tests.
>> 
>> 
>> Have a great day,
>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>> mehg...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
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Have a great day,
Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
mehg...@gmail.com



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Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[eric oyen]

well, when I get what I want in a timely manner, I don't worry about it. Its 
when I get substandard service, features or it takes a lot longer than it 
should to get them,, then I am one of the most complaining bastards out there. 
I make no bones about it, I expect excellence and anything less deserves 
attention to resolve.

Take, for example: the book famine for the blind. We have the same rights as 
the general public to access media, yet there are those that are fighting us 
tooth and nail because they don't want to deal with the problem. The American 
Authors ild is particularly strident on this. They won't allow the publication 
of content for the blind unless we sign up on a special registry (does anyone 
at the library have to do this just to borrow a book?).

How about the E-book consortium which is trying to get a waiver based on flimsy 
reasons (such as design modifications to the hardware, etc). Most all functions 
on these devices are in SOFTWARE and is not difficult to code for. Yet Amazon 
(and others) seek to get that waiver knowing full well they are locking out a 
non-trivial market segment.

Now apple did give us accessibility. However, that wouldn't have happened if 
these two conditions were not met:
1. we bitched to them for 4 years before they took notice
2. the blind represent the 2nd largest market segment for computer and 
smartphone technology among the disabled.

in the 1970's, the deaf demanded (and got) close captioning (which started 
showing up on TV in the early 1980's).
2. wheel chair users fought for 20 years for accessibility rights (and got them 
with the ADA in 1992).
Now, we the blind are the last to get anything and we are having to fight tooth 
and nail to get it.

My point is this: we are being put last before anyone else. We get treated like 
incompetent idiots, yelled at because they think blindness equals deafness and 
generally get disrespected in general public. If you are happy with this 
situation, fine. Just don't expect the rest of us to just lay down and accept 
it. I want whats mine and I will work to get it. If this means that I go into 
court to get what is legally mine, I will. Why be satisfied with anything less 
than what everyone else gets without even asking for it?

If anyone says I can't do a thing because of my blindness, then they had better 
stay out of my way while I prove them wrong (in the most public manner 
possible).

We have rights and its time we had them enforced. 

-eric

On Dec 18, 2013, at 2:52 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

> Yeah, and it doesn’t matter if we get what we want, because then we whimper 
> and whine about the fact that we have gotten what we want, either it is too 
> late, too little, too much or just plain spoken the wrong way. I know that 
> what i now will say is gonna offend people and i apologize in advance for 
> that, but if we bash Apple accessibility and Apple decides that they don’t 
> want to have anything whatsoever to do with the blind community then it’s a 
> catastrophy that we deserve. Don’t misunderstand me, pointing to bugs and 
> things that aren’t right isn’t wrong and shall be done provided it’s done in 
> a constructive, polite and creative way, complaining serves no purpose and in 
> the long run could end up really badly for us.
> /Krister
> 
> 18 dec 2013 kl. 03:42 skrev David Tanner :
> 
>> Well, Robert it probably does more to hurt all blind users of Apple devices 
>> than it ever will to help make things better.  But, as I am sure you known 
>> blind people have a long history of being hateful, spiteful, not 
>> appreciating what is done for them, and constant complainers.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my accessible iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:53 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I think the idea that accessibility is less important to Apple since the 
>>> death of Steve Jobs is nothing more than pure speculation and if anyone can 
>>> prove otherwise, I would love to see the evidence. I see no value in such 
>>> comments.
>>> 
>>> Robert Carter
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:42 AM, Scott B.  wrote:
 
 Absolutely right.  They can talking to engineering.  But engeeniering has 
 the final say.  I agree since the great Steve Jobs has passed we're 
 probably not seeing as much interaction from Accessibility as people saw 
 before.  To sum it up very briefly Accessibility is where you take the 
 accessibility suggestions or problems.  They either act upon them y 
 supporting you the person who needs help or passing it on to the 
 engineering team by escalation. Please also keep in mind these are tier 2 
 support personnel so they can't know everything either so be easy on these 
 people.
 
 
> On 12/17/2013 03:37, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
> Of late, I have noticed complaints against the Apple accessibility team 
> as if to suggest that we are being ignored.  It seems to be the belief of 
> some that the Apple accessi

Re: emojis

[May and Noah]

Aww well. Guess I’ll get use to it.

Thanks though.

May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca

On Dec 18, 2013, at 10:20 AM, Chris Blouch  wrote:

> Hmm. I can't really imagine a way as they are real characters in the text. 
> Sort of like asking to have voiceover ignore the letters B, M and S. That's 
> just a level of configuration detail I've not run across in a screen reader.
> 
> CB
> 
> On 12/18/13 3:21 AM, May and Noah wrote:
>> Trying once again.
>> 
>> I got to hear what emojis are, but no one answered my question on how to 
>> make it so voiceover does not announce them. Is this possible or *smiles* 
>> maybe no one knows that answer?
>> 
>> May and Prince Noah
>> www.canadianlynx.ca
>> 
> 
> -- 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
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Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[eric oyen]

most of the time I am tactful. I submit a great many bug reports on a daily 
basis (this mac has had problems lately, mostly owing to the fact that some API 
calls were broken in Safari). I also do a lot of work in the Open SOurce 
communities submitting bug reports on broken compiles. I type enough in a day 
to create a novel in less than a month. At least in Linux, I get a better, 
faster response than I do elsewhere. THere have been a few times where my 
frustration has gotten the better of me (see one of my postings 2 months back 
when Safari got updated to 6.1). I have to use webkit on account of several 
breakages in Safari (such as headers not being properly parsed, controls not 
visible in web item rotor, etc.). Its bugginess like this I cannot abide.

-eric

On Dec 18, 2013, at 7:37 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I think I agree with half of this.  But just keep in mind.  Blind consumers 
> are no different from any other consumer.  When you pay for something, and it 
> doesn’t work or, work the way you expect it to, some will act like asses.  I 
> don’t think blind people should be anymore or less thankful at this moment.  
> I think we should be happy that Apple offers more than the bare bones 
> requirements for accessibility, and have an active role in inclusive design 
> across their products.  But, when people are angry or disappointed, they 
> often let their emotions run away with them.  So I think Apple ditching 
> accessibility because a few blind people tell them some bad things is absurd. 
>  They are big boys and girls over there.  Why would they let the minority of 
> users dissuade them from their work?  I would assume most of their feedback 
> from Voiceover users is presented in a factual, comprehensive, and more or 
> less polite way.  These are the people they are listening to.  Not the people 
> who rant and carry on with no true point.  Know engineer worth their salt, 
> either software or hardware doesn’t want to fix things.  That’s their overall 
> goal.  I don’t think they are quitting because some folks send them a you 
> suck e-mail.  They are getting payed after all.  lol.
> 
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
> On Dec 18, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Krister Ekstrom  
> wrote:
> 
>> Yeah, and it doesn’t matter if we get what we want, because then we whimper 
>> and whine about the fact that we have gotten what we want, either it is too 
>> late, too little, too much or just plain spoken the wrong way. I know that 
>> what i now will say is gonna offend people and i apologize in advance for 
>> that, but if we bash Apple accessibility and Apple decides that they don’t 
>> want to have anything whatsoever to do with the blind community then it’s a 
>> catastrophy that we deserve. Don’t misunderstand me, pointing to bugs and 
>> things that aren’t right isn’t wrong and shall be done provided it’s done in 
>> a constructive, polite and creative way, complaining serves no purpose and 
>> in the long run could end up really badly for us.
>> /Krister
>> 
>> 18 dec 2013 kl. 03:42 skrev David Tanner :
>> 
>>> Well, Robert it probably does more to hurt all blind users of Apple devices 
>>> than it ever will to help make things better.  But, as I am sure you known 
>>> blind people have a long history of being hateful, spiteful, not 
>>> appreciating what is done for them, and constant complainers.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my accessible iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:53 AM, ROBERT CARTER  wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 I think the idea that accessibility is less important to Apple since the 
 death of Steve Jobs is nothing more than pure speculation and if anyone 
 can prove otherwise, I would love to see the evidence. I see no value in 
 such comments.
 
 Robert Carter
 
 
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:42 AM, Scott B.  wrote:
> 
> Absolutely right.  They can talking to engineering.  But engeeniering has 
> the final say.  I agree since the great Steve Jobs has passed we're 
> probably not seeing as much interaction from Accessibility as people saw 
> before.  To sum it up very briefly Accessibility is where you take the 
> accessibility suggestions or problems.  They either act upon them y 
> supporting you the person who needs help or passing it on to the 
> engineering team by escalation. Please also keep in mind these are tier 2 
> support personnel so they can't know everything either so be easy on 
> these people.
> 
> 
>> On 12/17/2013 03:37, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>> Of late, I have noticed complaints against the Apple accessibility team 
>> as if to suggest that we are being ignored.  It seems to be the belief 
>> of some that the Apple accessibility team fixes accessibility bugs and 
>> problems with Voice Over.  I do not believe that this is the case.  It 
>> is my belief that the Apple accessibility tea

Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[David Chittenden]

Wow, such interesting arguments. When eBook readers do not have built-in 
speakers, speech output is impossible. When the page of the book is a picture 
of the page, a scanned image, speaking that page is impossible. When the law is 
written such that the copyright holder has more rights around who can and 
cannot access the book than the potential reader has, accessing the book may 
not be legally possible. 

If you want to just flail around ineffectually making lots of noise but not 
necessarily getting very far, your stated approach can have limited success. 
However, would it not be better to learn the specifics in any particular 
situation so you can actually become effective? For instance, the author's 
guild is focused on keeping the copyrights law strong since writing and 
controlling who and how the book is read specifically effects the author's 
income. Authors do not earn any money for books which are checked out of 
libraries. However, people who really like books they read in libraries have a 
greater chance of purchasing their own copy. The argument against 
text-to-speech in all eReaders has actually been, if text to speech is used, 
people will not purchase the recorded versions of books, and the recorded 
versions are much more profitable. This is why NLS is so strict about who can 
access their professional recordings.

When software is being designed, adding text-to-speech is significantly less 
difficult than adding TTS access at a later date. The same is true for 
wheelchair access to buildings.

Depending on how the code is written, adding TTS and screen-reader navigation 
may well be extremely complex. In some cases, the entire operating system needs 
to be rewritten in order to add TTS and spoken navigation. To rewrite an OS can 
take a few years. You have no idea how long the original software was being 
developed before the company released the product, so the blanket statement 
that adding speech is a trivial matter, is completely incorrect in most cases.

Bugs should be fixed  quickly. I love this statement. It demonstrates complete 
and total ignorance. Bugs usually take a lot longer to track down and correct 
than adding new features. Operating systems are extremely complex. Bugs may 
have several causes. Changing code to repair one bug may cause a worse bug 
somewhere else in the system. Back when I studied programming in university, I 
spent most of my programming time tracking down, correcting, and then tracking 
down the bugs that the corrections generated. Sometimes, I left minor bugs 
because they did not impair the program's primary function, and I could not get 
the program to run any other way.

All that said, unless you can either get a strong public upswell behind you to 
get laws changed, or you can develop good will between you and the developers, 
ineffectual flailing around may cause as much harm as good to your efforts.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 19 Dec 2013, at 8:35, eric oyen  wrote:
> 
> well, when I get what I want in a timely manner, I don't worry about it. Its 
> when I get substandard service, features or it takes a lot longer than it 
> should to get them,, then I am one of the most complaining bastards out 
> there. I make no bones about it, I expect excellence and anything less 
> deserves attention to resolve.
> 
> Take, for example: the book famine for the blind. We have the same rights as 
> the general public to access media, yet there are those that are fighting us 
> tooth and nail because they don't want to deal with the problem. The American 
> Authors ild is particularly strident on this. They won't allow the 
> publication of content for the blind unless we sign up on a special registry 
> (does anyone at the library have to do this just to borrow a book?).
> 
> How about the E-book consortium which is trying to get a waiver based on 
> flimsy reasons (such as design modifications to the hardware, etc). Most all 
> functions on these devices are in SOFTWARE and is not difficult to code for. 
> Yet Amazon (and others) seek to get that waiver knowing full well they are 
> locking out a non-trivial market segment.
> 
> Now apple did give us accessibility. However, that wouldn't have happened if 
> these two conditions were not met:
> 1. we bitched to them for 4 years before they took notice
> 2. the blind represent the 2nd largest market segment for computer and 
> smartphone technology among the disabled.
> 
> in the 1970's, the deaf demanded (and got) close captioning (which started 
> showing up on TV in the early 1980's).
> 2. wheel chair users fought for 20 years for accessibility rights (and got 
> them with the ADA in 1992).
> Now, we the blind are the last to get anything and we are having to fight 
> tooth and nail to get it.
> 
> My point is this: we are being put last before anyone else. We get treated 
> like incompetent idiots, yelled at because they 

Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Littlefield, Tyler]

I love how people who have never written much more than a few lines of 
some high level scripting language in their lives are in a place to 
explain just how easy it is to write code for a screen reader and 
integrate it into a device. Take with that an entitlement and you have 
the argument that everything should by well damned have speech in it! 
I'm not saying we should settle for less, because we certainly should 
not. I am saying though that as was stated already, OS development is 
incredibly hard and takes a lot of time and money. throwing a screen 
reader on is best done at the beginning stages, because once you start 
bolting something on you tend to run into issues unlesss you start 
redesigning things so that the reader can be integrated rather than 
bolted on as an afterthought. That again takes a lot of time and effort. 
It's one of the reasons why apple switched from Carbon to Cocoa, and it 
gives us a lot more flexability because Cocoa has the support natively 
built in for voiceover and the like that the lower layers can use to 
retrieve information.

On 12/18/2013 3:33 PM, David Chittenden wrote:

Wow, such interesting arguments. When eBook readers do not have built-in 
speakers, speech output is impossible. When the page of the book is a picture 
of the page, a scanned image, speaking that page is impossible. When the law is 
written such that the copyright holder has more rights around who can and 
cannot access the book than the potential reader has, accessing the book may 
not be legally possible.

If you want to just flail around ineffectually making lots of noise but not 
necessarily getting very far, your stated approach can have limited success. 
However, would it not be better to learn the specifics in any particular 
situation so you can actually become effective? For instance, the author's 
guild is focused on keeping the copyrights law strong since writing and 
controlling who and how the book is read specifically effects the author's 
income. Authors do not earn any money for books which are checked out of 
libraries. However, people who really like books they read in libraries have a 
greater chance of purchasing their own copy. The argument against 
text-to-speech in all eReaders has actually been, if text to speech is used, 
people will not purchase the recorded versions of books, and the recorded 
versions are much more profitable. This is why NLS is so strict about who can 
access their professional recordings.

When software is being designed, adding text-to-speech is significantly less 
difficult than adding TTS access at a later date. The same is true for 
wheelchair access to buildings.

Depending on how the code is written, adding TTS and screen-reader navigation 
may well be extremely complex. In some cases, the entire operating system needs 
to be rewritten in order to add TTS and spoken navigation. To rewrite an OS can 
take a few years. You have no idea how long the original software was being 
developed before the company released the product, so the blanket statement 
that adding speech is a trivial matter, is completely incorrect in most cases.

Bugs should be fixed  quickly. I love this statement. It demonstrates complete 
and total ignorance. Bugs usually take a lot longer to track down and correct 
than adding new features. Operating systems are extremely complex. Bugs may 
have several causes. Changing code to repair one bug may cause a worse bug 
somewhere else in the system. Back when I studied programming in university, I 
spent most of my programming time tracking down, correcting, and then tracking 
down the bugs that the corrections generated. Sometimes, I left minor bugs 
because they did not impair the program's primary function, and I could not get 
the program to run any other way.

All that said, unless you can either get a strong public upswell behind you to 
get laws changed, or you can develop good will between you and the developers, 
ineffectual flailing around may cause as much harm as good to your efforts.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone


On 19 Dec 2013, at 8:35, eric oyen  wrote:

well, when I get what I want in a timely manner, I don't worry about it. Its 
when I get substandard service, features or it takes a lot longer than it 
should to get them,, then I am one of the most complaining bastards out there. 
I make no bones about it, I expect excellence and anything less deserves 
attention to resolve.

Take, for example: the book famine for the blind. We have the same rights as 
the general public to access media, yet there are those that are fighting us 
tooth and nail because they don't want to deal with the problem. The American 
Authors ild is particularly strident on this. They won't allow the publication 
of content for the blind unless we sign up on a special registry (does anyone 
at the library have to do this just to borrow a book?).

How about the E-book

Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

Thank you David, for talking sense.  I hope we can change this topic now 
because I’m tired of reading people’s misgivings about what Apple should do 
with their accessibility stuff as we can be constructive instead rather than 
negative.  Before someone says, I’m not on any platform’s side as each have 
advantages and disadvantages and I’m for whatever platform which will help me 
get the job done.

Thanks.

Kawal.
On 18 Dec 2013, at 20:33, David Chittenden  wrote:

> Wow, such interesting arguments. When eBook readers do not have built-in 
> speakers, speech output is impossible. When the page of the book is a picture 
> of the page, a scanned image, speaking that page is impossible. When the law 
> is written such that the copyright holder has more rights around who can and 
> cannot access the book than the potential reader has, accessing the book may 
> not be legally possible. 
> 
> If you want to just flail around ineffectually making lots of noise but not 
> necessarily getting very far, your stated approach can have limited success. 
> However, would it not be better to learn the specifics in any particular 
> situation so you can actually become effective? For instance, the author's 
> guild is focused on keeping the copyrights law strong since writing and 
> controlling who and how the book is read specifically effects the author's 
> income. Authors do not earn any money for books which are checked out of 
> libraries. However, people who really like books they read in libraries have 
> a greater chance of purchasing their own copy. The argument against 
> text-to-speech in all eReaders has actually been, if text to speech is used, 
> people will not purchase the recorded versions of books, and the recorded 
> versions are much more profitable. This is why NLS is so strict about who can 
> access their professional recordings.
> 
> When software is being designed, adding text-to-speech is significantly less 
> difficult than adding TTS access at a later date. The same is true for 
> wheelchair access to buildings.
> 
> Depending on how the code is written, adding TTS and screen-reader navigation 
> may well be extremely complex. In some cases, the entire operating system 
> needs to be rewritten in order to add TTS and spoken navigation. To rewrite 
> an OS can take a few years. You have no idea how long the original software 
> was being developed before the company released the product, so the blanket 
> statement that adding speech is a trivial matter, is completely incorrect in 
> most cases.
> 
> Bugs should be fixed  quickly. I love this statement. It demonstrates 
> complete and total ignorance. Bugs usually take a lot longer to track down 
> and correct than adding new features. Operating systems are extremely 
> complex. Bugs may have several causes. Changing code to repair one bug may 
> cause a worse bug somewhere else in the system. Back when I studied 
> programming in university, I spent most of my programming time tracking down, 
> correcting, and then tracking down the bugs that the corrections generated. 
> Sometimes, I left minor bugs because they did not impair the program's 
> primary function, and I could not get the program to run any other way.
> 
> All that said, unless you can either get a strong public upswell behind you 
> to get laws changed, or you can develop good will between you and the 
> developers, ineffectual flailing around may cause as much harm as good to 
> your efforts.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 19 Dec 2013, at 8:35, eric oyen  wrote:
>> 
>> well, when I get what I want in a timely manner, I don't worry about it. Its 
>> when I get substandard service, features or it takes a lot longer than it 
>> should to get them,, then I am one of the most complaining bastards out 
>> there. I make no bones about it, I expect excellence and anything less 
>> deserves attention to resolve.
>> 
>> Take, for example: the book famine for the blind. We have the same rights as 
>> the general public to access media, yet there are those that are fighting us 
>> tooth and nail because they don't want to deal with the problem. The 
>> American Authors ild is particularly strident on this. They won't allow the 
>> publication of content for the blind unless we sign up on a special registry 
>> (does anyone at the library have to do this just to borrow a book?).
>> 
>> How about the E-book consortium which is trying to get a waiver based on 
>> flimsy reasons (such as design modifications to the hardware, etc). Most all 
>> functions on these devices are in SOFTWARE and is not difficult to code for. 
>> Yet Amazon (and others) seek to get that waiver knowing full well they are 
>> locking out a non-trivial market segment.
>> 
>> Now apple did give us accessibility. However, that wouldn't have happened if 
>> these two conditions were not met:
>> 1. we bitched to them for 4 years befo

Re: accessing drop box settings

[Nicholas Parsons]

I guess you have enabled curser wrapping? I can't VO-Left Arrow to settings, as 
settings is the last item in the window and I haven't enabled curser wrapping. 
I just VO-Shift-End to jump to the last item in the window, which is settings.
Cheers,
Nic

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Re: ReadKit Question

[Nicholas Parsons]

The app works perfectly for me, but I use FeedWrangler to sync my feeds, not 
Instapaper. So I can't help you, unfortunately. However, it doesn't sound like 
it's a VoiceOver problem, but rather a ReadKit and Instapaper problem. Given 
this, the mainstream support documentation should be able to fix your problem. 
Check your settings and preferences in ReadKit, check their help/support 
documentation, and if that doesn't fix your problem try emailing the developers 
with your issue.
Cheers,
Nic

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10.9.1 and brailledisplays

[William Windels]

hello,
I haven't installed 10.9 finally since my handytech braille star 80 wasn't 
working at all.

The problems with some brailledisplays in 10.9 are confirmed by apple 
accessibility.
so, my question:
does anybody know if the problem with this and/or other braille displays are 
solved in 10.9.1?

kind regards
Mvg
william Windels

Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone

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Re: 10.9.1 and brailledisplays

[Jessica D]

i used mine with mavericks and have not seen a single problem. can you please 
explain further what you mean?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 17, 2013, at 11:57 AM, William Windels  
> wrote:
> 
> hello,
> I haven't installed 10.9 finally since my handytech braille star 80 wasn't 
> working at all.
> 
> The problems with some brailledisplays in 10.9 are confirmed by apple 
> accessibility.
> so, my question:
> does anybody know if the problem with this and/or other braille displays are 
> solved in 10.9.1?
> 
> kind regards
> Mvg
> william Windels
> 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
> 
> -- 
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Re: a new mac book user needing a help for folders.

[Angelo]

Hi, you’ll find that folder in the folder called users/your name/music and what 
ever you named your iTunes library 
hth
Angelo
a.rock...@gmail.com



On Dec 18, 2013, at 7:35 AM, Dionipher Herrera  wrote:

> can somebody help me find the user folder for my mac book pro, im new to mac 
> book so i need a lot of help from you all guys.. i want to transfer my my 
> music to the itunes folder but i cant find it. thanks.
> 
> -- 
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
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Re: USb turntable help/reccomendations.

[Eric Caron]

Hi Jessica,

When I baught it I payed $40.00 I'm sure it is more now.  there is also now a 
lite version and the full version.  I would recommend the full app as over time 
you will likely want all the features.  

this podcast is old and one of my first attempts at podcasting.  The intro can 
be skipped over and you can go right to the part where I walk through the steps 
in turning a vinyl album into digital divided tracks.  Listening to it a bit I 
can't believe how dated some of my comments are.  I bet some folks on this list 
never had a stereo with a tape output.  

Here is the link to the podcast if you want to give it a try.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5620907/Amadeus%20Pro%20Vinyl%20To%20CD.mp3

Good luck with your project.  

Eric Caron 
On Dec 17, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Jessica Moss  wrote:

> I'd love that, How much is Amadeus pro?
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 7:56 PM, Eric Caron wrote:
> 
>> Hi Jessica,
>> 
>> 
>>  About 4 years ago I did exactly what you are talking about.  I 
>> purchased a USB turn table.  It was not expensive about $60.00 .  It was 
>> probably not very high quality but it worked fine for my needs.  Over the 
>> winter months I digitized my vinyl collection.  The results were very good 
>> and at the end of the process I got a very big surprise.  Here is what I did 
>> and what happened.
>> 
>> I used Amadeus Pro to record and then split the recording into tracks.  I 
>> was a experienced user of Audacity on the PC and started with that on the 
>> mac but found it much easier to use Amadeus Pro.
>> 
>> I then did a podcast about the process and as I left my email in the podcast 
>> I received emails from many people doing the same thing.
>> 
>> My podcast is outdated now but essentially the process is the same.  there 
>> are many podcasts out there teaching the same steps on newer versions of 
>> Amadeus Pro.
>> 
>> the next thing I did was I used Sound Hound on my iPhone to identify songs, 
>> artists and albums.
>> 
>> I also sometimes used VizWiz on my iPhone to identify albums.
>> 
>> I labeled my tracks carefully.
>> 
>> I must have done a good job labeling and recording the tracks  as a year 
>> later I subscribed to itunes Match.  To my surprise my vinyl trackes were 
>> often recognized and I ended up with many tracks replaced as high quality 
>> itunes versions.  As a result my work ended up with my having both the 
>> familiar crackle copies and new digital copies.
>> I truly enjoyed the process of recording the vinyl.  
>> 
>> Best of luck with your project.
>> 
>> If you want my old podcast I might be able to dig it up and put it out in a 
>> dropbox link.  
>> It was on blindcooltech.com and thus was lost when that site went away.
>> 
>> Eric Caron 
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 5:31 PM, Jessica Moss  wrote:
>> 
>>> I originally didn't really want to go that route , but considering the fact 
>>> that sons of the stuff I'm looking for is out of print and is available on 
>>> vinal only, I unfortunatly don't have a choice.)
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 10, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Chris Blouch  wrote:
 
 While I haven't played around with this, most USB turntables will not hook 
 up to your line in/out jacks. The turntable will just connect via USB and 
 have a built-in analog to digital converter. So it should just show up as 
 a generic audio input device which you can record from using your favorite 
 app. You could even do it with plain old quicktime if you so desired. the 
 more tricky stuff is splitting up the recorded audio into tracks along 
 with any post-processing for scratches and such. Then you also have to 
 name each track and add all the other meta data like album name, artist, 
 release date etc. In the end you have to consider if all that is worth 
 your time. Unless you have some rare or special stuff it might be money 
 better spent in iTunes getting pristine copies of your favorite tracks or 
 even buying the CD versions and importing them. If you still want to go 
 forward I'd check into the turntables offered by Sweetwater, Guitar 
 Center, B&H and the like. Seems to start at about $100 for a basic one and 
 goes up to about $800 for a super deluxe model.
 
 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=usb+turntable&Go=Search
 http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Default.aspx?internal=1&browser=&fsrc=usb+turntable&src=usb+turntable
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=usb+turntable&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
 
 CB
 
> On 12/10/13 9:26 PM, Jessica Moss wrote:
> I'm wanting a usb turntable for Christmas, but not sure of a good model 
> to buy, and kind of need a memory refresher on how to use one.
> I think I have the jist of it, needing to hook it into the line in/out 
> jacks, which I'm not 100% sure which ones are where, and could use some 
> tips on the conversion process, considering the 

Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[eric oyen]

I can see the problems I have raised. However, the E-book readers actually do 
have an audio port (how else are you going to hear other multimedia content). 
THe authors guild doesn't necessarily represent all authors (in fact, a lot of 
them are actually starting to publish via amazon and others). If you look at 
their actions over the last 20 years, you will see that they have actually 
acted to defend major publishers.

Now, the issue of scanned images containing text can be worked around 
effectively (there are several inexpensive OCR apps for windows or OS X that 
work well).

THe purpose of a library is the same as its always been: the free sharing of 
information. We the blind have as much right to access to this information that 
the sighted take for granted, yet the onerousness of copyright laws makes this 
extremely difficult. This situation is not improving (as evidenced by recent 
actions against both Apple and Google for their books online). Again, we get 
left out of consideration when such actions are taken.

Now, complaining does work, if done correctly and to the right people. If the 
vendor doesn't want to listen, one can always spend money elsewhere. THere is 
also legal action (I would use this as a last resort when all other 
negotiations fail). As for voting with your wallet, this only works when there 
is enough people doing the same thing. This also only works if there is more 
than one vendor offering that product with those features desired. One other 
way that also works is to be able to produce a competing product cheaper (NVDA 
is an example of this).If its as good or better, people will flock to it, thus 
forcing the higher priced vendor to improve their product or lower the price. 
This is simple economics 101.

As for adding accessibility to an OS, the API's have already been developed for 
Linux and OS X. Windows has one as well, but it (like the rest of the OS) is 
practically a joke. THe problem here is that MS doesn't stick to their own 
standards, so you end up with different versions of the OS not being able to do 
some specific things. These days, coding in accessibility to an app is pretty 
much a trivial affair if the proper API is followed Developers don't have to go 
reinventing the wheel when it comes to TTS.
Again, we need to go back to the original point here. Should we, as blind 
people, suffer in silence as we get second or third class treatment? Being 
treated as less than human is demeaning and insulting. It may make me look like 
an ass, but there are times when furious anger will get the point across (I 
just wouldn't use it except as a last resort). It is incredibly hard not to fly 
off the handle when someone insults me. 

Anyway, I think I have ranted enough.

-eric

On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:33 PM, David Chittenden wrote:

> Wow, such interesting arguments. When eBook readers do not have built-in 
> speakers, speech output is impossible. When the page of the book is a picture 
> of the page, a scanned image, speaking that page is impossible. When the law 
> is written such that the copyright holder has more rights around who can and 
> cannot access the book than the potential reader has, accessing the book may 
> not be legally possible. 
> 
> If you want to just flail around ineffectually making lots of noise but not 
> necessarily getting very far, your stated approach can have limited success. 
> However, would it not be better to learn the specifics in any particular 
> situation so you can actually become effective? For instance, the author's 
> guild is focused on keeping the copyrights law strong since writing and 
> controlling who and how the book is read specifically effects the author's 
> income. Authors do not earn any money for books which are checked out of 
> libraries. However, people who really like books they read in libraries have 
> a greater chance of purchasing their own copy. The argument against 
> text-to-speech in all eReaders has actually been, if text to speech is used, 
> people will not purchase the recorded versions of books, and the recorded 
> versions are much more profitable. This is why NLS is so strict about who can 
> access their professional recordings.
> 
> When software is being designed, adding text-to-speech is significantly less 
> difficult than adding TTS access at a later date. The same is true for 
> wheelchair access to buildings.
> 
> Depending on how the code is written, adding TTS and screen-reader navigation 
> may well be extremely complex. In some cases, the entire operating system 
> needs to be rewritten in order to add TTS and spoken navigation. To rewrite 
> an OS can take a few years. You have no idea how long the original software 
> was being developed before the company released the product, so the blanket 
> statement that adding speech is a trivial matter, is completely incorrect in 
> most cases.
> 
> Bugs should be fixed  quickly. I love this statement. It demonstrates 
> complete and t

Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[eric oyen]

I may not have written much code, but I certainly have had to debug a lot of it 
over the years. It may be time for me to go back to school and learn coding the 
right way. BTW, the guys at NVDA apparently make coding look easier than it is. 
Then again, thats their specialty. Mine is a systems and network administration 
background with a healthy dose of troubleshooting and repair thrown in for good 
measure.

-eric

On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:

> I love how people who have never written much more than a few lines of some 
> high level scripting language in their lives are in a place to explain just 
> how easy it is to write code for a screen reader and integrate it into a 
> device. Take with that an entitlement and you have the argument that 
> everything should by well damned have speech in it! I'm not saying we should 
> settle for less, because we certainly should not. I am saying though that as 
> was stated already, OS development is incredibly hard and takes a lot of time 
> and money. throwing a screen reader on is best done at the beginning stages, 
> because once you start bolting something on you tend to run into issues 
> unlesss you start redesigning things so that the reader can be integrated 
> rather than bolted on as an afterthought. That again takes a lot of time and 
> effort. It's one of the reasons why apple switched from Carbon to Cocoa, and 
> it gives us a lot more flexability because Cocoa has the support natively 
> built in for voiceover and the like that the lower layers can use to retrieve 
> information.
> On 12/18/2013 3:33 PM, David Chittenden wrote:
>> Wow, such interesting arguments. When eBook readers do not have built-in 
>> speakers, speech output is impossible. When the page of the book is a 
>> picture of the page, a scanned image, speaking that page is impossible. When 
>> the law is written such that the copyright holder has more rights around who 
>> can and cannot access the book than the potential reader has, accessing the 
>> book may not be legally possible.
>> 
>> If you want to just flail around ineffectually making lots of noise but not 
>> necessarily getting very far, your stated approach can have limited success. 
>> However, would it not be better to learn the specifics in any particular 
>> situation so you can actually become effective? For instance, the author's 
>> guild is focused on keeping the copyrights law strong since writing and 
>> controlling who and how the book is read specifically effects the author's 
>> income. Authors do not earn any money for books which are checked out of 
>> libraries. However, people who really like books they read in libraries have 
>> a greater chance of purchasing their own copy. The argument against 
>> text-to-speech in all eReaders has actually been, if text to speech is used, 
>> people will not purchase the recorded versions of books, and the recorded 
>> versions are much more profitable. This is why NLS is so strict about who 
>> can access their professional recordings.
>> 
>> When software is being designed, adding text-to-speech is significantly less 
>> difficult than adding TTS access at a later date. The same is true for 
>> wheelchair access to buildings.
>> 
>> Depending on how the code is written, adding TTS and screen-reader 
>> navigation may well be extremely complex. In some cases, the entire 
>> operating system needs to be rewritten in order to add TTS and spoken 
>> navigation. To rewrite an OS can take a few years. You have no idea how long 
>> the original software was being developed before the company released the 
>> product, so the blanket statement that adding speech is a trivial matter, is 
>> completely incorrect in most cases.
>> 
>> Bugs should be fixed  quickly. I love this statement. It demonstrates 
>> complete and total ignorance. Bugs usually take a lot longer to track down 
>> and correct than adding new features. Operating systems are extremely 
>> complex. Bugs may have several causes. Changing code to repair one bug may 
>> cause a worse bug somewhere else in the system. Back when I studied 
>> programming in university, I spent most of my programming time tracking 
>> down, correcting, and then tracking down the bugs that the corrections 
>> generated. Sometimes, I left minor bugs because they did not impair the 
>> program's primary function, and I could not get the program to run any other 
>> way.
>> 
>> All that said, unless you can either get a strong public upswell behind you 
>> to get laws changed, or you can develop good will between you and the 
>> developers, ineffectual flailing around may cause as much harm as good to 
>> your efforts.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 19 Dec 2013, at 8:35, eric oyen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> well, when I get what I want in a timely manner, I don't worry about it. 
>>> Its when I get substandard service, feat

Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Littlefield, Tyler]

I have two points here.

Firstly, OCR is a very CPU and memory consuming process. If you expect 
to get this on an an EReader, you're totally 100% insane. There are OCR 
engines out there, but the question of licensing comes to mind, which is 
actually something I forgot to mention on my last post with screen 
readers. You need to license (or put in the amount of money it would 
take to research and develop a synth), which is a pretty big issue. 
There's ESpeak, but that license may not work for some proprietary software.


Finally, I'm not sure what issues you have with windows or why you trash 
them, but the standards you point out are actually followed. Microsoft 
has developed quite a few standards, usually to improve accessibility 
that screen readers are expected to adopt and have made them accessible 
for screen readers, which was the actual purpose behind them. It was for 
all intents and purposes the same idea Apple had with their adoption of 
Cocoa, with the minor fact that Apple can just adjust as much as they 
need for Voiceover while Microsoft needs to provide an API that can be 
accessed. As for Linux, there does not currently exist an API like MSAA 
or UIAA that can be used for screen readers. Each window manager has 
their own (at-spi, etc). So no, writing screen readers is not at all 
trivial.


you also mentioned NVDA, which brings up another issue. They have done a 
great job at it, but they have also been working on this project for 
years and have the ability to use open-source projects and libraries 
they can tie into. They do this quite well, but it is yet another issue 
proprietary software would have to contend with--if no suitable licensed 
libraries are available to perform a specific task, some reinvention of 
the wheel will have to take place.

On 12/18/2013 8:37 PM, eric oyen wrote:

I can see the problems I have raised. However, the E-book readers actually do 
have an audio port (how else are you going to hear other multimedia content). 
THe authors guild doesn't necessarily represent all authors (in fact, a lot of 
them are actually starting to publish via amazon and others). If you look at 
their actions over the last 20 years, you will see that they have actually 
acted to defend major publishers.

Now, the issue of scanned images containing text can be worked around 
effectively (there are several inexpensive OCR apps for windows or OS X that 
work well).

THe purpose of a library is the same as its always been: the free sharing of 
information. We the blind have as much right to access to this information that 
the sighted take for granted, yet the onerousness of copyright laws makes this 
extremely difficult. This situation is not improving (as evidenced by recent 
actions against both Apple and Google for their books online). Again, we get 
left out of consideration when such actions are taken.

Now, complaining does work, if done correctly and to the right people. If the 
vendor doesn't want to listen, one can always spend money elsewhere. THere is 
also legal action (I would use this as a last resort when all other 
negotiations fail). As for voting with your wallet, this only works when there 
is enough people doing the same thing. This also only works if there is more 
than one vendor offering that product with those features desired. One other 
way that also works is to be able to produce a competing product cheaper (NVDA 
is an example of this).If its as good or better, people will flock to it, thus 
forcing the higher priced vendor to improve their product or lower the price. 
This is simple economics 101.

As for adding accessibility to an OS, the API's have already been developed for 
Linux and OS X. Windows has one as well, but it (like the rest of the OS) is 
practically a joke. THe problem here is that MS doesn't stick to their own 
standards, so you end up with different versions of the OS not being able to do 
some specific things. These days, coding in accessibility to an app is pretty 
much a trivial affair if the proper API is followed Developers don't have to go 
reinventing the wheel when it comes to TTS.
Again, we need to go back to the original point here. Should we, as blind 
people, suffer in silence as we get second or third class treatment? Being 
treated as less than human is demeaning and insulting. It may make me look like 
an ass, but there are times when furious anger will get the point across (I 
just wouldn't use it except as a last resort). It is incredibly hard not to fly 
off the handle when someone insults me.

Anyway, I think I have ranted enough.

-eric

On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:33 PM, David Chittenden wrote:


Wow, such interesting arguments. When eBook readers do not have built-in 
speakers, speech output is impossible. When the page of the book is a picture 
of the page, a scanned image, speaking that page is impossible. When the law is 
written such that the copyright holder has more rights around who can and 
cannot access the b

Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

Well said David.  While I understand people’s frustration and totally despise 
discrimination, I’m not sure that I fully agree with some of the 
opinions/comments shared prior to that.

I’ll chime in here to express just a few points.  Way back when OS X first came 
out, I recall going down to the city to do some training with Apple and I 
commented on the lack of a screen reader within the new OS.  I had been using 
OutSpoken for Mac in OS 6 through 9 and was interested in continuing to use the 
Mac as it evolved.  In normal Apple fashion, no real concrete things were said 
but it certainly was hinted that they were working on something of their own 
instead of having an outside vender developing such an animal.  My point is 
here that I don’t believe that it was the noise made by the blind community 
that got Apple on the screen reader and accessibility wagon, I’m pretty sure 
that it was in the cards for quite a while.  I certainly know that 
magnification and other accessibility features were built right in to the MacOS 
back in the late 80s,.  I don’t believe for a minute that accessibility is not 
a priority.

The old saying that you attract more flies to honey than you do to crap comes 
to mind.  Constructive dialog and collaboration usually get better results than 
ranting and raving.  Expressing frustration and asserting yourself and your 
rights are fine, but speculation and exaggeration seldom result in positive 
productivity.

Later…

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:33 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:

> Wow, such interesting arguments. When eBook readers do not have built-in 
> speakers, speech output is impossible. When the page of the book is a picture 
> of the page, a scanned image, speaking that page is impossible. When the law 
> is written such that the copyright holder has more rights around who can and 
> cannot access the book than the potential reader has, accessing the book may 
> not be legally possible. 
> 
> If you want to just flail around ineffectually making lots of noise but not 
> necessarily getting very far, your stated approach can have limited success. 
> However, would it not be better to learn the specifics in any particular 
> situation so you can actually become effective? For instance, the author's 
> guild is focused on keeping the copyrights law strong since writing and 
> controlling who and how the book is read specifically effects the author's 
> income. Authors do not earn any money for books which are checked out of 
> libraries. However, people who really like books they read in libraries have 
> a greater chance of purchasing their own copy. The argument against 
> text-to-speech in all eReaders has actually been, if text to speech is used, 
> people will not purchase the recorded versions of books, and the recorded 
> versions are much more profitable. This is why NLS is so strict about who can 
> access their professional recordings.
> 
> When software is being designed, adding text-to-speech is significantly less 
> difficult than adding TTS access at a later date. The same is true for 
> wheelchair access to buildings.
> 
> Depending on how the code is written, adding TTS and screen-reader navigation 
> may well be extremely complex. In some cases, the entire operating system 
> needs to be rewritten in order to add TTS and spoken navigation. To rewrite 
> an OS can take a few years. You have no idea how long the original software 
> was being developed before the company released the product, so the blanket 
> statement that adding speech is a trivial matter, is completely incorrect in 
> most cases.
> 
> Bugs should be fixed  quickly. I love this statement. It demonstrates 
> complete and total ignorance. Bugs usually take a lot longer to track down 
> and correct than adding new features. Operating systems are extremely 
> complex. Bugs may have several causes. Changing code to repair one bug may 
> cause a worse bug somewhere else in the system. Back when I studied 
> programming in university, I spent most of my programming time tracking down, 
> correcting, and then tracking down the bugs that the corrections generated. 
> Sometimes, I left minor bugs because they did not impair the program's 
> primary function, and I could not get the program to run any other way.
> 
> All that said, unless you can either get a strong public upswell behind you 
> to get laws changed, or you can develop good will between you and the 
> developers, ineffectual flailing around may cause as much harm as good to 
> your efforts.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 19 Dec 2013, at 8:35, eric oyen  wrote:
>> 
>> well, when I get what I want in a timely manner, I don't worry about it. Its 
>> when I get substandard service, features or it takes a lot longer than it 
>> should to get them,, then I am one of the most complaining bastards out 
>> there. I mak

Re: a word in defense of the Apple accessibility team

[Karen Lewellen]

oh but of course.
After all compare the number of apple screen readers there have been what 
two? three at most?  outspoken which did the job fantastically with 
apple's input, , still can 
with the right equipment, then voiceover.  because apple understood the 
importance of including speech for many populations.
what always blows my mind though is the assumption that voiceover exists 
solely for , and benefits only individuals experiencing sight loss.The 
very idea is a limitation in and of itself.
The broader the understanding that there can be  more people and more 
definitions of successful  interaction then the one you are 
personally using, the easier 
it is to draw others on board for inclusion.
just my two cents having only read Tim's comments and not the rest of the 
thread.

Kare

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013, Tim Kilburn wrote:


Hi,

Well said David.  While I understand people’s frustration and totally despise 
discrimination, I’m not sure that I fully agree with some of the 
opinions/comments shared prior to that.

I’ll chime in here to express just a few points.  Way back when OS X first came 
out, I recall going down to the city to do some training with Apple and I 
commented on the lack of a screen reader within the new OS.  I had been using 
OutSpoken for Mac in OS 6 through 9 and was interested in continuing to use the 
Mac as it evolved.  In normal Apple fashion, no real concrete things were said 
but it certainly was hinted that they were working on something of their own 
instead of having an outside vender developing such an animal.  My point is 
here that I don’t believe that it was the noise made by the blind community 
that got Apple on the screen reader and accessibility wagon, I’m pretty sure 
that it was in the cards for quite a while.  I certainly know that 
magnification and other accessibility features were built right in to the MacOS 
back in the late 80s,.  I don’t believe for a minute that accessibility is not 
a priority.

The old saying that you attract more flies to honey than you do to crap comes 
to mind.  Constructive dialog and collaboration usually get better results than 
ranting and raving.  Expressing frustration and asserting yourself and your 
rights are fine, but speculation and exaggeration seldom result in positive 
productivity.

Later…

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:33 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:


Wow, such interesting arguments. When eBook readers do not have built-in 
speakers, speech output is impossible. When the page of the book is a picture 
of the page, a scanned image, speaking that page is impossible. When the law is 
written such that the copyright holder has more rights around who can and 
cannot access the book than the potential reader has, accessing the book may 
not be legally possible.

If you want to just flail around ineffectually making lots of noise but not 
necessarily getting very far, your stated approach can have limited success. 
However, would it not be better to learn the specifics in any particular 
situation so you can actually become effective? For instance, the author's 
guild is focused on keeping the copyrights law strong since writing and 
controlling who and how the book is read specifically effects the author's 
income. Authors do not earn any money for books which are checked out of 
libraries. However, people who really like books they read in libraries have a 
greater chance of purchasing their own copy. The argument against 
text-to-speech in all eReaders has actually been, if text to speech is used, 
people will not purchase the recorded versions of books, and the recorded 
versions are much more profitable. This is why NLS is so strict about who can 
access their professional recordings.

When software is being designed, adding text-to-speech is significantly less 
difficult than adding TTS access at a later date. The same is true for 
wheelchair access to buildings.

Depending on how the code is written, adding TTS and screen-reader navigation 
may well be extremely complex. In some cases, the entire operating system needs 
to be rewritten in order to add TTS and spoken navigation. To rewrite an OS can 
take a few years. You have no idea how long the original software was being 
developed before the company released the product, so the blanket statement 
that adding speech is a trivial matter, is completely incorrect in most cases.

Bugs should be fixed  quickly. I love this statement. It demonstrates complete 
and total ignorance. Bugs usually take a lot longer to track down and correct 
than adding new features. Operating systems are extremely complex. Bugs may 
have several causes. Changing code to repair one bug may cause a worse bug 
somewhere else in the system. Back when I studied programming in university, I 
spent most of my programming time tracking down, correcting, and then tracking 
down the bugs that the corrections generated. Sometimes, I left minor bugs 
because they d

very strange, annoying and frustrating audio issue

[John D. Lipsey]

Hi guys:

This just started today, and it's most frustrating!! I'm going to make a genius 
bar appointment Saturday, but if anyone has a fix before then I'll gladly take 
it!

I noticed, starting this afternoon for seemingly no reason, strange audio 
artifacts popping up in my headphones.  This only happens when using 
headphones, any headphones, in my headphone jack. I don't see the issue through 
speakers in the MacBook or in USB headsets.  A restart hasn't help the issue. 
While I don't mind using USB headsets, I like to keep my options as open as 
possible.

It's hard to explain exactly what these artifacts are, but I notice them most 
of all when there are system sounds, the voiceover clicks, etc. They don't seem 
to appear during actual voiceover speech if that's all there is to hear. 
They're strange hissing noises, some of which remind me of badly tuned radios.

Thanks in advance for any help/suggestions.

Cheers!

-John

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iTunes Radio Assistance??

[Eileen Misrahi]

Hello Folks, 

I have managed to add stations to my radio list table. When a station is first 
added, it will play. When returning to my radio list table, I interact with it, 
highlight a station and then try to open it with either using the return key, 
VO-spacebar or spacebar by itself. None of these options will activate the 
station that is highlighted to have it played. Am I missing a step in getting 
this to work. All suggestions and directions on how to correct this and have my 
selected stations play in iTunes would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance. 
Best, 
Eileen 

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Re: iTunes Radio Assistance??

[Vivianna]

hi.  after you select a station, just tab over to the play button and press 
space on it.

Vivianna

On Dec 19, 2013, at 12:22 AM, Eileen Misrahi  wrote:

> Hello Folks, 
> 
> I have managed to add stations to my radio list table. When a station is 
> first added, it will play. When returning to my radio list table, I interact 
> with it, highlight a station and then try to open it with either using the 
> return key, VO-spacebar or spacebar by itself. None of these options will 
> activate the station that is highlighted to have it played. Am I missing a 
> step in getting this to work. All suggestions and directions on how to 
> correct this and have my selected stations play in iTunes would be greatly 
> appreciated. 
> 
> Thanks in advance. 
> Best, 
> Eileen 
> 
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
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