RE: [issues] OFFTOPIC: Re: your mail
> Not at ALL stupid. I'm FAR more interested in getting the specification > list and the design set done than in picking a language. I'm with Jenn on this one. I don't think we _can_ start to talk about a language choice until we have a basic spec/design-goal for the project. I mean, are we even all talking about the same thing here? For example, a lot of the initial comments seem to be saying that the software should have a primarily web based interface, I disagree. This type of UI would be good for project collaboration software, a lá www.sourceforge.com but I personally take project management software to be something different. More like, although I hate to say it, M$ Project. I think that our priority should be to make progress on the design of the software before we start looking at the implementation. Yours, Ian. #ifndef __COMMON_SENSE__ | Ian Phillips #include | TIBCO Software Inc. #endif| www.TIBCO.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] OFFTOPIC: Re: your mail
On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Jenn V. wrote: > I had not intended to stereotype, and I /definately/ was not intending to > slur a very valid and often appropriate programming method. But saying I > can effectively program that way would be like saying I have brown eyes. > Completely wrong. Not 'better' or 'worse'. Just wrong. We all have different skillsets and I think we can accomodate a variety of styles. -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net My three rules for happy living: No Windows, No Java, No Perl. "I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie." -- Rick Moen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
[issues] Prototype vs. design
On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Maureen Lecuona wrote: > Let us not start stereotyping each other before we have all even met, > okay? > > Just because some of the people want to use PYTHON, this does mean they > are "prototypers". Exactly. > I will put out a preliminary specification document, and a design > document so we can apportion out the work as we see fit. I agree. I find good design very hard to find, especially in the open source community. As I've been known to say, "in this bunch, software design is as popular as leprosy." > BTW, I seldom prototype, but I sometimes need to give demos of working > ideas. There's a lot to be said for producing working code before > claiming one design is better than another, and prototyping happens to > lead to some very elegant refinements early in the coding cycle, because > prototyping, whenever I have chosen to do it, gives me new insights and > points out early any erroneous assumptions I may have made in the early > design. I am personally a fan of the "design - prototype - fix design" plan because, whether anyone intends it or not, it almost always happens that way. I've seen WAY too many overspecced projects die before a line of code is produced. I want neither an ill-fitting design NOR well-documented vaporware. -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net My three rules for happy living: No Windows, No Java, No Perl. "I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie." -- Rick Moen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
[issues] Free Project Management Software
Some people have asked that I explain what project management software does. Project management software is used to track the tasks involved in managing an ongoing project. It normally takes as its input these things: 1. the Tasks which compose a project (along with its relationship to other tasks comprising the project; 2. the assignees (project team members assigned to complete a specific task); 3. dates for completion; Each task may or may not have a prerequisite or corequisite task related to it. These task relationships are tracked by the software and critical paths and jeopardy dates are computed and made available via graphical reports to a project manager. Typically this software is used in large scale projects, but it can also be used to track small scale projects. Some project management softwares are tied to time reporting so that time series data accumulated in a database can be used to forecast the time it takes to complete certain tasks. This refinement is generally available in large enterprises, but is not necessarily typical. The Free Project Management Software Project (this is not the "official" name yet, but it will do for the time being), will be GPL'd, and will hopefully be accepted into the GNU offerings. It is not my intention to make this a LINUX-only software, and we would like to be sure that the implementation is portable with little or no modification accross all target platforms. There will be a specification document in the very near future, as well as a high level design document made available. The specification document will be provided as a mime attachment to an email reply to anyone that requests it from me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am compiling the list of people who have expressed interest, and hopefully, we will have our own mailing list starting some time next week. I will then announce the list, as well as the availability of the specification and we can go from there. Maureen Lecuona [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
Deirdre: Would it be possible for you to put a mailing list for the project on your machine or should I go elsewhere? We need to move off issues@linuxchix for our project specs discussions, unless we want to get bombarded with all kinds of noise when we start getting serious... Let me know ASAP, Maureen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Deirdre Saoirse wrote: > > On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Maureen Lecuona wrote: > > > Let us not start stereotyping each other before we have all even met, > > okay? > > > > Just because some of the people want to use PYTHON, this does mean they > > are "prototypers". > > Exactly. > > > I will put out a preliminary specification document, and a design > > document so we can apportion out the work as we see fit. > > I agree. I find good design very hard to find, especially in the open > source community. As I've been known to say, "in this bunch, software > design is as popular as leprosy." > > > BTW, I seldom prototype, but I sometimes need to give demos of working > > ideas. There's a lot to be said for producing working code before > > claiming one design is better than another, and prototyping happens to > > lead to some very elegant refinements early in the coding cycle, because > > prototyping, whenever I have chosen to do it, gives me new insights and > > points out early any erroneous assumptions I may have made in the early > > design. > > I am personally a fan of the "design - prototype - fix design" plan > because, whether anyone intends it or not, it almost always happens that > way. I've seen WAY too many overspecced projects die before a line of > code is produced. > > I want neither an ill-fitting design NOR well-documented vaporware. > > -- > _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net >My three rules for happy living: No Windows, No Java, No Perl. > "I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie." > -- Rick Moen > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:05:46 -0800 (PST), Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >I agree. I find good design very hard to find, especially in the open >source community. As I've been known to say, "in this bunch, software >design is as popular as leprosy." KDE seems especially prone to this. They used to have a page up that listed the "tenets" of KDE. One of them was "Don't talk." Well, if you don't talk, how can you discuss design issues? We used to make a lot of fun of this on the #gimp channel, with random bursts of "Don't talk!" and "FOCUS!" (another KDE "tenet"). GNOME seems to have put considerably more attention into design, although perhaps not as much as they should. It probably also helps that a lot of the people in the open source community have little or no formal training. Design is not something that most people learn how to do on their own. Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] OFFTOPIC: Re: your mail
Deirdre Saoirse wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Jenn V. wrote: > > > I had not intended to stereotype, and I /definately/ was not intending to > > slur a very valid and often appropriate programming method. But saying I > > can effectively program that way would be like saying I have brown eyes. > > Completely wrong. Not 'better' or 'worse'. Just wrong. > > We all have different skillsets and I think we can accomodate a variety of > styles. Thank you. I also think we can - different styles and skillsets can make a project stronger. Jenn V. -- "We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor. This is women's work!" Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ Jenn Vesperman[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.simegen.com/~jenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Maureen Lecuona wrote: > Would it be possible for you to put a mailing list for the project on > your machine or should I go elsewhere? > > We need to move off issues@linuxchix for our project specs discussions, > unless we want to get bombarded with all kinds of noise when we start getting > serious... Right -- I've set up a list at http://www.deirdre.org/listinfo/fpms You can subscribe there or you can subscribe via email by emailing [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a message body of subscribe. -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net My three rules for happy living: No Windows, No Java, No Perl. "I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie." -- Rick Moen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Free Project Management Software
some links you guys might find useful.. linux PM software: http://linas.org/linux/pm.html PM software faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/proj-plan-faq/ an intresting webbased commericial PM package run by alot of companies.. that has a walkthough of thier product which may be useful during the "wtf is our product going to do" (be sure to click on the walk through) http://www.wproj.com/h_welcome.html /"\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign [EMAIL PROTECTED] X - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail http://www.curious.org/ / \ - NO Word docs in e-mail"This quote is false." -anon [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Free Project Management Software
Thanks. Maureen curious wrote: > > some links you guys might find useful.. > > linux PM software: > http://linas.org/linux/pm.html > > PM software faq: > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/proj-plan-faq/ > > an intresting webbased commericial PM package run by alot of companies.. > that has a walkthough of thier product which may be useful during the "wtf > is our product going to do" > (be sure to click on the walk through) > http://www.wproj.com/h_welcome.html > > /"\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign [EMAIL PROTECTED] > X - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail http://www.curious.org/ > / \ - NO Word docs in e-mail"This quote is false." -anon > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
Kelly Lynn Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > It probably also helps that a lot of the people in the open source > community have little or no formal training. Design is not something > that most people learn how to do on their own. So what? Where would someone who's interested "learn" these skills. How many EECS programs teach design? Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote: > Kelly Lynn Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > It probably also helps that a lot of the people in the open source > > community have little or no formal training. Design is not something > > that most people learn how to do on their own. > > So what? Where would someone who's interested "learn" these skills. > How many EECS programs teach design? It's pretty much learned in grad school (if you study it!) or by mentoring. -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net My three rules for happy living: No Windows, No Java, No Perl. "I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie." -- Rick Moen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote: > > > Kelly Lynn Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > It probably also helps that a lot of the people in the open source > > > community have little or no formal training. Design is not something > > > that most people learn how to do on their own. > > > > So what? Where would someone who's interested "learn" these skills. > > How many EECS programs teach design? > > It's pretty much learned in grad school (if you study it!) or by > mentoring. I'm not sure how those formal techniques would apply to a practical design project, especially with the functional specifications yet to be agreed upon. I haven't tuned in to your mailing list yet, so all of this is specious (read: noise). Thanks, though. Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
It's a pretty huge part of our EECS (http://www.eecs.wsu.edu) program. A whole 300 level undergraduate course devoted to it (one you would probably take in your third or fourth semester in the program), and those concepts are used throughout your undergrad "career" fairly extensively. (especially if you "option" in software engineering) They try to introduce the concepts in the first CS (weeder) course you take, but a lot of MIS students are concurrently in the course (and it's nowhere near their focus) so it seems to float over most students' heads. I am looking at the University of British Columbia (we may be moving to canada/vancouver after we finish our first degrees, CS is my second) and their first "principles of computer science" course includes an introduction to "design methodology". The second includes more than just an "introduction", it is listed as part of the course material.They combine data structures and program design into an early second year course. Third year, you take another big course on design (software engineering style). Mmmm... their program looks interesting. Anyway, lots of design. Of course, I can't speak for every undergrad department ;o) -nicole Robert Kiesling wrote: > > Kelly Lynn Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > It probably also helps that a lot of the people in the open source > > community have little or no formal training. Design is not something > > that most people learn how to do on their own. > > So what? Where would someone who's interested "learn" these skills. > How many EECS programs teach design? > > Robert > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:17:42 -0500, Robert Kiesling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >So what? Where would someone who's interested "learn" these skills. >How many EECS programs teach design? My first undergrad school had classes in software engineering. There's two types of CS, after all; EECS is the "hack and slash" style, while (Math)CS is a more theoretical approach. Usually the character of the department is determined by whether it grew out of a math department or an engineering department. Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
Kelly Lynn Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My first undergrad school had classes in software engineering. > > There's two types of CS, after all; EECS is the "hack and slash" > style, while (Math)CS is a more theoretical approach. Usually the > character of the department is determined by whether it grew out of a > math department or an engineering department. There may be a third... that is based on information science, and that is what I've been considering, as another person said, on the character of the data, like text, images, musical scores... (though that description does not do justice to information science). I think that qualifies, although it doesn't have the reputation of being as rigorous as the curricula that are more founded in math. Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
> Mmmm... their program looks interesting. Anyway, lots of design. > > Of course, I can't speak for every undergrad department ;o) Actually it would be grad school, but I'm not certain that I'm suited for PhD candidacy. :) Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:47:32 -0500, Robert Kiesling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >There may be a third... that is based on information science, and >that is what I've been considering, as another person said, on the >character of the data, like text, images, musical scores... (though >that description does not do justice to information science). I >think that qualifies, although it doesn't have the reputation of >being as rigorous as the curricula that are more founded in math. Granted. Information science was at best fledgling when I was last in computer science -- and that was almost ten years ago. Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote: > There may be a third... that is based on information science, and that > is what I've been considering, as another person said, on the > character of the data, like text, images, musical scores... (though > that description does not do justice to information science). I think > that qualifies, although it doesn't have the reputation of being as > rigorous as the curricula that are more founded in math. Information science deals more with the storing of language (full text search and retrieval) and is sort of an outgrowth of library science. MIS (another one omitted) is an outgrowth of business computing. So there's four major areas that reflect where they originally came from. My specialty personally is as a generalist as I've done all four areas. I tend to prefer less math however. :) -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net My three rules for happy living: No Windows, No Java, No Perl. "I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie." -- Rick Moen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
Robert Kiesling wrote: > Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote: > > > > > So what? Where would someone who's interested "learn" these skills. > > > How many EECS programs teach design? > > > > It's pretty much learned in grad school (if you study it!) or by > > mentoring. > > I'm not sure how those formal techniques would apply to a practical > design project, especially with the functional specifications yet to > be agreed upon. 1. What's EECS? 2. What's 'grad school'? (Bachelor's? Master's? Doctorate?) 3. It was taught in my Bachelor's course (and taught, and drilled and trained...) to the point where it's reflexive to me. Give me a project with sufficient specs (formal or informal) and I have to sit down and at least /think/ things through, preferably sketch it with paper or keyboard, before I can sit down and program. Give me inadequate specs, and I can't do a thing short of bug people for more detail. I suspect that most people are like this to some degree, but .. 4. What use are formal design documents? Not a great deal - *once design is reflexive*. But they're great for teaching someone to design reflexively, and they can be very useful as a communication tool. (Here, look at this. This is how the program works.) Jenn V. -- "We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor. This is women's work!" Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ Jenn Vesperman[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.simegen.com/~jenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote: > > > There may be a third... that is based on information science, and that > > is what I've been considering, as another person said, on the > > character of the data, like text, images, musical scores... (though > > that description does not do justice to information science). I think > > that qualifies, although it doesn't have the reputation of being as > > rigorous as the curricula that are more founded in math. > > Information science deals more with the storing of language (full text > search and retrieval) and is sort of an outgrowth of library science. > > MIS (another one omitted) is an outgrowth of business computing. > > So there's four major areas that reflect where they originally came from. > My specialty personally is as a generalist as I've done all four areas. I > tend to prefer less math however. :) I'm almost completely math illiterate. So I tend to think of information in linguistic terms. It's a big leap between textual data and quantifying pure information at an atomic level. In computing, I'm kind of an amateur linguist, which is why I like Perl, because of the way it uses context to resolve linguistic ambiguity, the way human language does. Sort of a "poor man's Larry Wall," I guess. :) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
> Robert Kiesling wrote: > > Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote: > > > > > > > So what? Where would someone who's interested "learn" these skills. > > > > How many EECS programs teach design? > > > > > > It's pretty much learned in grad school (if you study it!) or by > > > mentoring. > > > > I'm not sure how those formal techniques would apply to a practical > > design project, especially with the functional specifications yet to > > be agreed upon. > > 1. What's EECS? Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, right? > > 2. What's 'grad school'? (Bachelor's? Master's? Doctorate?) Here it's Masters and Doctorate. > > 3. It was taught in my Bachelor's course (and taught, and drilled > and trained...) to the point where it's reflexive to me. Give me > a project with sufficient specs (formal or informal) and I have to > sit down and at least /think/ things through, preferably sketch it > with paper or keyboard, before I can sit down and program. > > Give me inadequate specs, and I can't do a thing short of bug people > for more detail. > > I suspect that most people are like this to some degree, but .. That reminds me of the way language is taught... > > 4. What use are formal design documents? Not a great deal - *once design > is reflexive*. But they're great for teaching someone to design > reflexively, and they can be very useful as a communication tool. (Here, > look at this. This is how the program works.) ... but on a more sophisticated level, it's better to give someone a model to emulate, then let them figure out for themselves how to arrive at the finished program, provided they know how to perform all of the necessary procedures (e.g., don't first throw the monitor out of the window). [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Jenn V. wrote: > 1. What's EECS? Electrical Engineering/ Computer Science. > 2. What's 'grad school'? (Bachelor's? Master's? Doctorate?) Master's or Doctorate. > 3. It was taught in my Bachelor's course (and taught, and drilled > and trained...) to the point where it's reflexive to me. Give me > a project with sufficient specs (formal or informal) and I have to > sit down and at least /think/ things through, preferably sketch it > with paper or keyboard, before I can sit down and program. I should mention that my Bachelor's is NOT in computer science. In fact, I avoided it rather carefully. When I would have started such a program (oh, like 20 years ago), design wasn't really taught at that level. It is now, but not as much as I think would be useful. > Give me inadequate specs, and I can't do a thing short of bug people > for more detail. > > I suspect that most people are like this to some degree, but .. You'd be amazed. :) > 4. What use are formal design documents? Not a great deal - *once design > is reflexive*. But they're great for teaching someone to design > reflexively, and they can be very useful as a communication tool. (Here, > look at this. This is how the program works.) Agreed. For example, I think that Open Source projects done by individuals will typically need less in the way of the design docs because there is no specific budget. Thus we an eliminate those parts of the typical spec that are the sales and finance pitch. :) -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net My three rules for happy living: No Windows, No Java, No Perl. "I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie." -- Rick Moen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
Deirdre Saoirse wrote: > > Agreed. For example, I think that Open Source projects done by > individuals will typically need less in the way of the design docs because > there is no specific budget. Thus we an eliminate those parts of the > typical spec that are the sales and finance pitch. :) > I'm lucky - I've been too ill to work full time, so I've been able to get other people to do the sales and finance pitch guff. :) But my doctor's making me well, so I'm going to be able to work full time... so .. ewww. Interaction with suits. :/ Jenn V. -- "We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor. This is women's work!" Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ Jenn Vesperman[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.simegen.com/~jenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Prototype vs. design
Robert Kiesling wrote: > ... but on a more sophisticated level, it's better to give someone a > model to emulate, then let them figure out for themselves how to > arrive at the finished program, provided they know how to perform all > of the necessary procedures (e.g., don't first throw the monitor out > of the window). I wouldn't say 'better', just 'different'. At the risk of starting a religious war - which I /don't/ want to do, why do you say 'better'? People think differently. It's one of our strengths as a species that we are composed of a variety of ways-of-being. Some people (me) happen to be unable to simply 'emulate' something we don't understand the structure of. I would have to analyse the model - and it's easier to teach me by showing me HOW to analyse the model effectively, THEN giving me either a model or a task (perhaps letting me find my own model) and saying 'do this'. You, presumably, work better given an example and either not analysing (perhaps. I dunno. I don't know your mind), analysing instinctively, or somehow 'knowing' how it fits together. And why is it 'more sophisticated'? I'm genuinely curious - this isn't intended as a criticism, flame, or whatever else it might be taken as. It's asking. Cause I don't get it. Jenn V. -- "We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor. This is women's work!" Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ Jenn Vesperman[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.simegen.com/~jenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
[issues] Reminder
===
The LinuxChix List Reminder
===
This is my standard "form-email" that I post to the LinuxChix lists
every so often. The following are descriptions of the various
mailing lists that are part of the LinuxChix community. I ask that
everyone scan the list names and purposes. I ask that you please send
your messages to the appropriate list.
Thank you for your time and cooperation. -deb-
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---
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---
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