Re: [Harbour] terms within documentation: Clipper vs CA-Cl*pper

[Phil Barnett]

On 08/16/2009 02:22 PM, April White wrote:
I've been mostly focusing on the doc/en-en files but I was curious 
about Clipper versions (that is for another email).


I observed that there are several places within doc/*.txt where the 
term Clipper is used and CA-Cl*pper is others.


Is it an acceptable change to use CA-Cl*pper in all places?

April

As long as you attribute the trademarked name "Clipper" to the proper 
owner of the trademark in the appendix or the forward, it's generally 
acceptable to use the trademark.


So, it's perfectly legal to say something like:

Harbour is a superset of Clipper and is backwards compatible with nearly 
100% of all Clipper 5.2x or 5.3 code. Most Clipper S'87 code will also 
compile and run fine, but may require some modifications to run well.




...and attributed correctly in your document elsewhere...

Everywhere in this documentation, whenever the trademarked name Clipper 
is used, it is recognized as a trademark of Computer Associates


Take a look at this web page and scroll down to the bottom to see how 
they make it all legal...


http://www.apple.com/legal/trademark/appletmlist.html

You can find millions of examples by googling for "is a trademark of".
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Re: [Harbour] hbzlib and hbpcre move to /external dir

[Phil Barnett]

On Thu, 2009-09-10 at 01:02 +0200, Viktor Szakáts wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> There is a pending item on my TODO list to move
> hbzlib and hbpcre sources under /external tree.
> 
> At the same time the detection of externally available
> versions could also be added, and possibility to override
> them with usual HB_INC_* vars also. It's probably healthier
> to use these on *nix systems anyway.
> 
> The other benefit would be that we'd hold all 3rd
> party code in one easy to identify spot, which makes
> them easier to manage (update/config/strip/distribute).
> 
> One consequence is that they'd have to be renamed
> to their original lib names (dropping 'hb' prefix).
> Plus some additional hbmk[2] tricks will be required.
> 
> Is there any reason this move cannot or shouldn't be
> made? Or some issues to be aware of?

This was one of my stated goals and we had many discussions about it.

I can't see it as anything but a good idea that should be done asap.

BTW, great work on the beta process. Amazing work!

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Re: [Harbour] hbmemio issue

[Phil Barnett]

On Tue, 2009-09-22 at 18:23 +0200, Viktor Szakáts wrote:
> Yes, with real FS it's okay with our APIs, but
> such date/time/random based solution aren't rock
> solid (uniqueness isn't guaranteed), so indeed
> something better would be good.

pseudocode

do

   RandomFileName = SomeRandomFileNameCreator(basename)

   if not exist RandomFileName
exit
   end if

loop

There's still a very very small chance of a race condition, but unless
you are going to use a semaphore supplied by the OS or Server, that's a
cross you have to bear. But it's a very tiny race condition and I've
never found it to be a problem in production code, especially if the
random number is large and is properly reseeded.

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Re: [Harbour] Re: SF bug tracker#2873146: Lang ES850c not, fully compatible with clipper

[Phil Barnett]

On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 21:16 +0200, Vojtěch Obrdlík wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've found that on Phil Barnett's marvelous old Clipper (TM) site - The 
> Oasis -
> 
> is available patch Clipper 5.2e for both US and Intl. version.
> 
> url: http://www.the-oasis.net/ftpmaster.php3?content=ftp_ca.htm

You all cannot believe how much traffic that site still gets. Over a gig
a month of downloads.

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Re: [Harbour] Re: Harbour Forum and Wiki.

[Phil Barnett]

On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 14:19 -0200, Angel Pais wrote:

> Maybe here we are having language barriers difficulting communication, 
> but in the experimental HMG 3.0, Roberto have icluded hbmk2 and is using 
> it.
> He is running some tests to report here later the things he finds.
> Roberto has issued 3 versions of HMG in 2 days for his community to test 
> and report back compatibility issues. He is making a big effort to 
> include all tools from latest Harbour.
> Go download it from sourceforge an see for yourself.
> The reason Robertos is including mingw and harbour in the binary package 
> is for practical purpouses and to minimize support to only "stable" 
> versions of all tools involved.

Wouldn't this be better served by creating a script that fetches a
stable version of each product and prividing a place where they can be
downloaded from?

It keeps you from having to customize yet allows you to have a fixed
point to work around.

Then, you can update portions of it as needed.

This is always better served when there are stable versions being
distributed, which is currently the 1.x version of Harbour.

And when 2.x is released, you once again have a stable version to work
with.

With that in mind, would a better solution be to move quickly as
possible to a stable 2.0 Harbour release? This would be good for all
parties involved. Grabbing an unstable version of Harbour to make some
other process stable is very work intensive and counterproductive in the
long run.

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Re: [Harbour] Search Mailing List?

[Phil Barnett]

On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 09:20 +0800, Jerry Finuliar wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Is there a way to search through the mailing list archives? (of course except 
> from downloading it)
> 
> Sorry for asking this silly question.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jerry 
> 
> 
> 

Put this in the search field of Google.com

site:http://lists.harbour-project.org/pipermail/harbour/ finuliar

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour 2.0.0: Released

[Phil Barnett]

On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 23:07 +0100, Viktor Szakáts wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I'm glad to announce that after a very heavy 16 months 
> of development, the final, stable version 2.0.0 is finally 
> released.

Congratulations!

You have worked long and hard for this and it's so good to see it
accomplished!

Everyone should be very proud of this great thing!

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Re: [Harbour] Re: Harbour next major release wishlist

[Phil Barnett]

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

>
> In fact the overall goal is the opposite: Allow developers
> to create addons completely independently from Harbour
> code, yet make them easily manageable and pluggable
> for users. That's what I'd like to encourage 3rd party
> developers.
>

Good answer! There is no better goal. This is exactly what made Clipper so
great.
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Re: [Harbour] Harbour 2.0.0: Released

[Phil Barnett]

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

>
> HOW TO GET
> --
>  From SVN:
> svn export
> https://harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/harbour-project/tags/harbour-2.0.0
>

After a successful compile and install on Fedora 12 64 bit, I found that I
had to add a conf file to /etc/ld.so.conf.d

echo "/usr/local/lib64/harbour" > /etc/ld.so.conf.d/harbour.conf'

and then run ldconfig

Thanks for everything, it's awewome!
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Re: [Harbour] Harbour 2.0.0: Released

[Phil Barnett]

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Phil Barnett  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:
>
>>
>> HOW TO GET
>> --
>>  From SVN:
>> svn export
>> https://harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/harbour-project/tags/harbour-2.0.0
>>
>
> After a successful compile and install on Fedora 12 64 bit, I found that I
> had to add a conf file to /etc/ld.so.conf.d
>
> echo "/usr/local/lib64/harbour" > /etc/ld.so.conf.d/harbour.conf'
>
> and then run ldconfig
>
> Thanks for everything, it's awewome!
>

Got so excited I can't even spell awesome!
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Re: [Harbour] Harbour 2.0.0: Released

[Phil Barnett]

On Thu, 2009-12-24 at 11:41 +0100, Przemysław Czerpak wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009, Phil Barnett wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > After a successful compile and install on Fedora 12 64 bit, I found that I
> > had to add a conf file to /etc/ld.so.conf.d
> > echo "/usr/local/lib64/harbour" > /etc/ld.so.conf.d/harbour.conf'
> > and then run ldconfig
> 
> If you create RPMs (mpkg_rpm.sh) then you can install them and use
> Harbour without any modifications in LD directories.
> 
> BTW how you compiled and installed Harbour?


I checked out the repository with your supplied 2.0.0 link and did a
make install.

If I do the mpkg rpm.sh, will that create the RPM for Fedora 12/64 or
does it create a generic install?

I have Fedora 32 and 64 installed and running here.

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Re: [Harbour] Mary Christmas

[Phil Barnett]

On Thu, 2009-12-24 at 15:47 +0100, Przemysław Czerpak wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I would like to wish all of you Mary Christmas !!!

Thank you and a very merry Christmas to you and your family and all
Harbour participants!

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Re: [Harbour] request for mailing manager

[Phil Barnett]

On Sat, 2010-01-02 at 02:36 +0100, Viktor Szakáts wrote:
> So until we clear this up, I won't add any new replicator 
> services.
> 
> We already have:
>  - Our own mailman archives (matrixlist), 
>  - gmane.org
>  - mail-archive.com
>  - nabble.com
> 
> All of them indexed by google.
> 
> + Since this is a mailing list, the online and/or 
> offline mailer search facilities can be used (gmail 
> and Mail.app in my case), plus local search facilities 
> on almost all existing OSes.
> 
> 

you can limit your searches on Google with site:

site:matrixlist.com blah search blah

That will force Google to return hits only from that site.

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Re: [Harbour] request for mailing manager

[Phil Barnett]

On Sat, 2010-01-02 at 03:07 +0100, Viktor Szakáts wrote:
> > Is possible found on line Historical messages 1999-2007?
> 
> We've been hopping mailing list providers in the beginning 
> (mostly because of host company takeovers and mergers), so 
> the early days are only available from local/offline mail 
> archives. (f.e. I have 37247 messages from 1999.04-2002.02 
> period - in .emlx format and not really ready for publishing 
> since I can't be sure if it's all public messages.)
> 
> From the point when Phil provides us the mailing list, 
> maybe it would be nice to publish all archives on the 
> archives page. You should ask Phil if that's possible.

Google should have them. Use the Google site: command to limit the
search.

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Re: [Harbour] GPL + Harbour exception to LGPL ?

[Phil Barnett]

Viktor Szakáts wrote:

Hi all,

What is the difference between GPL + Harbour exception and LGPL?

I reckon LGPL wasn't nearly available when Harbour was born, so we 
had to come up with our own solution, but since now LGPL is around, 
shouldn't we consider switching our unique license to this standard one?


For me these look fundamentally the same, and I'm ready to 
transition my own copyrighted material to LGPL if this thinking is 
right. (of course I mean only current GPL+exception parts).


Using a standard license could probably help in the acceptance and 
evaluation of this project by 3rd parties (even Linux distros).


Any opinions or insight on this?
The reason for the Harbour exception was so that we could include the 
macro compiler inside distributed executables without violating the GPL.

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Re: [Harbour] GPL + Harbour exception to LGPL ?

[Phil Barnett]

Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Phil Barnett wrote:

Hi Phil,

  
The reason for the Harbour exception was so that we could include the macro 
compiler inside distributed executables without violating the GPL.



Can you explain it?

The macro compiler code is on exactly the same license as rest of Harbour
HVM/RTL code.
I do not ubnderstand why it needs some special excpetion and other things
not.
  
Without the exception, I can't write propprietary code and release my 
executable as non GPL because it's always linked to GPL code which makes 
my executable subject to the GPL. The exception states that if I include 
the macro compiler inside my otherwise nonGPL code, it does not make my 
code GPL.


The GPL license is viewed by many to be a viral license. It pretty much 
makes everything it comes in contact with subject to the GPL.


Simply put, the Harbour Exception to the GPL allows Harbour users to 
compile proprietary code, link the macro compiler and not break the 
terms of the GPL on the proprietary code. They can keep their code 
private, they are not forced to reveal it.


Since the GPL is a license invoked by each copyright holder, not some 
external entity, it is entirely up to the copyright holder to determine 
distribution rights. Thus anyone who invokes the GPL license on their 
code (our source code) can also make an exception to the GPL, and that 
is exactly how our exemption is used. Each copyright holder of parts of 
the Harbour compiler have licensed it via the GPL plus our exception.


Perfectly legal and it eliminates one of the viral aspects of the GPL 
license that does not suit our purposes.


If I recall correctly, we also have a part of the exception that 
excludes the macro compiler from being wrapped and being presented under 
a copyright. This keeps our work safe from someone wrapping it and 
invoking the exception. That is the exception to our exception. Without 
going back and looking at the verbiage I don't recall if that actually 
made it in. It was certainly discussed.

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Re: [Harbour] GPL + Harbour exception to LGPL ?

[Phil Barnett]

Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009, Phil Barnett wrote:

Hi Phil,

  
The reason for the Harbour exception was so that we could include the 
macro compiler inside distributed executables without violating the GPL.


Can you explain it?
The macro compiler code is on exactly the same license as rest of Harbour
HVM/RTL code.
I do not ubnderstand why it needs some special excpetion and other things
not.
  
Without the exception, I can't write propprietary code and release my 
executable as non GPL because it's always linked to GPL code which makes my 
executable subject to the GPL. The exception states that if I include the 
macro compiler inside my otherwise nonGPL code, it does not make my code 
GPL.



Thank you very much. I knew about it.
My question was why you were talking about macro compiler.
What is the difference bvetween macro compiler and other
Harbour code like HVM or RTL.

  
If I recall correctly, we also have a part of the exception that excludes 
the macro compiler from being wrapped and being presented under a 
copyright. This keeps our work safe from someone wrapping it and invoking 
the exception. That is the exception to our exception. Without going back 
and looking at the verbiage I don't recall if that actually made it in. It 
was certainly discussed.



Maybe I'm missing sth but whole macro compiler code seems to be on the
same license as other Harbour runtime libraries.
Only part of Harbour compiler has different license. To be precises these
files does not contain Harbour exception and use pure GPL license:

   source/compiler/cmdcheck.c
   source/compiler/genc.c
   source/compiler/gencobj.c
   source/compiler/genhrb.c
   source/compiler/harbour.y
   source/compiler/hbfunchk.c
   source/compiler/hbgenerr.c
   source/compiler/hbident.c
   source/compiler/hbmain.c

And I still want to change it.
I would like to allow using Harbour compiler library in proprietary code
but also add protection against creating some closed source compiler clones.
Here pure LGPL seems to be much better for me. I'd only add one point:
any modification/extensions to compiler code should be available in
source (.diff) form at some public forums or sent to Harbour-devel list.
I can rewrite above code (few things even have to be rewritten if we want
to add some extensions) but personally I'd prefer to try to contact with
developers who worked on this code and ask about their permission to change
the license to LGPL (is possible with above exception) but it's not strictly
necessary.

  
LGPL only protects from GPL for dynamically linked code. If you staticly 
link LGPL, it becomes GPL and has the problem mentioned before.


We spent months working out the license. I have the archives if we need 
to study.


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Re: [Harbour] GPL + Harbour exception to LGPL ?

[Phil Barnett]

Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009, Phil Barnett wrote:

Hi,

  
LGPL only protects from GPL for dynamically linked code. If you staticly 
link LGPL, it becomes GPL and has the problem mentioned before.
We spent months working out the license. I have the archives if we need to 
study.



Thank you for information.
AFAIK It's not true. You can link statically.
The only one think you have to made is adding user an option to
upgrade the LGPL part of code.
It means that you should deliver also dynamic binaries on user
request or give the user source code or recompile the binaries
on user requests with new LGPL code. It doesn't matter how you
resolve it. Important is the fact that user has rights to update
the LGPL part of code and you should not block such possibilities.

For me it's quite good option for compiler library. Please note
that I'm talking about compiler library not macro compiler.
Now it's possible to link compiler with final application, f.e.
to add support for some scripts.
  
The exception was never about the compiler itself. It is all about users 
wishing to create proprietary code executables with GPL code built into 
it. The exception is for the users of the compiler, not the compiler itself.


Even the simplest compile and link of Harbour brings in GPL code. 
Without the exception, there is no way to distribute a proprietary 
executable legally.

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Re: [Harbour] Embedding 3rd party projects

[Phil Barnett]

Viktor Szakáts wrote:

There are a few issue with Harbour 3rd party libs in general
(talking about open source ones for now):
1) Each has a different make system, which means each of them has 
to be learned, built and locally maintained in a completely 
different way.
2) These make systems and libs are often targeting only a small subset 
of supported Harbour platforms.


And that is where we depart in general from what made Clipper the 3rd 
party success it was. Those third parties could distribute a library. 
Maybe two. We can't deal easily with precompiled code (libraries or 
objects) unless those same third parties distribute those libraries for 
multiple platforms and even perhaps multiple compilers. This raises the 
bar significantly for entry to the third party banquet. Our original 
goal was multiple compilers and multiple platforms. That has been 
accomplished, but in this respect, it's our Achilles heel. And, worst of 
all, we don't have 'the most popular compiler around', which is what 
made third party developers desire to put in the work. I'm not saying 
what we have is bad in any way. it's not. Harbour is vastly superior to 
Clipper.


At the very least, we would need to maintain a published list of 
compiler and target platforms so the large yet finite list is well 
known. That would at least give a third party developer a target, even 
if it is a huge one. I think it's a rather large problem.


This was perhaps the least understood trade off that we made with our 
multiplatform multicompiler goal. Our goal was not bad, but look what 
came with it.


I don't have the answer, just more things to ponder and some realities 
to accept.

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Re: [Harbour] SF.net SVN: harbour-project:[10669] trunk/harbour

[Phil Barnett]

dru...@users.sourceforge.net wrote:

Revision: 10669
  
http://harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net/harbour-project/?rev=10669&view=rev
Author:   druzus
Date: 2009-03-21 15:04:43 + (Sat, 21 Mar 2009)

  

Outstanding work! Thanks so much for this great contribution!
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Re: [Harbour] GTWVG - Removal from SVN

[Phil Barnett]

Viktor Szakáts wrote:
It's nothing against your person or your work, I just feel 
this contribution would have a much better life as a separate 
entity due its size, focuses, and other misc properties I've 
repeated already too many times.


We should focus here on multiplatform things.
There has been talk many times in the past to create a Harbour-Contrib 
project in Source Forge parallel to Harbour Project and move non-core, 
non-portable, non-multiplatform portions of contrib into it.


At this point, with the goal in mind of creating a identical experience 
on every platform, I'd say it's time.


And that is nothing personal to anyone. We would continue to advertise 
the second half of the project on our web pages and give equal billing.


But the separation can make releases better and easier.
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Re: [Harbour] Some xhb developers giving no credit when copying work from Harbour

[Phil Barnett]

Viktor Szakáts wrote:


If the license doesn't change anything, we probably shouldn't have one at 
all, so I hope we agree that it's there to use it :) no offence meant.


Brgds,
Viktor
Well, the license DOES mean something. The GPL requires that copyrights 
are carried forward into the borrowed code. If you live in a country 
that signed the original Berne Convention, or has signed it since it's 
inception, your code is automatically copyrighted the moment you write 
it. The list of countries that didn't sign yet is quite small.


If you find a module of yours being distributed with your copyright 
removed, the copier has violated the GPL and has to get permission from 
you directly to distribute your code. This is clear in the GPL. This is 
one of the better things it does for us.


You have a right to license your code in many ways. One of the ways we 
license is via the GPL, which allows other people to borrow your code, 
but they have to follow the rules. If they don't follow the rules, you 
have not given them permission to distribute your code. You have the 
right to sue for profits created from this illegal distribution. This is 
one of the reasons I would like to see many modules copyrights donated 
to the FSF. They have lawyers to enforce such things.


But you are correct. The gentlemanly thing to do is to give credit to 
the author in downline GPL usage. If we use code from any other project 
and it is GPL code, I want everyone here to give credit and include the 
original copyright in our source tree. I suspect that every GPL project 
manager wants the same, but things happen without oversight or vision, 
so we may have to be vigilant and authoratative to get things set straight.


Let's give them some time to correct this and then you can give me 
examples and I'll take it up with their project manager.


And, yes, you are a MAJOR contributor to this project and you are very 
much appreciated as are all of our contributors.

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Re: [Harbour] Some xhb developers giving no credit when copying work from Harbour

[Phil Barnett]

Andi Jahja wrote:

This is unfair IMO, you seem to hide under the condition "IDEA CANNOT BE
COPYRIGHTED" or are you declaring yourself a genius because you can
"implement" other's stuff into yours without taking a look and then
simply stated that it is a SIMPLE thing? :-)

I am not trying to be rude but I simply feel this is unjust :-)
There is nothing unjust about it. It's been this way for decades if not 
centuries.


Expressions of things, song notes on paper, words on paper, computer 
code in files or on paper, etc. can be copyrighted. If you derive 
something from copyrighted work, it is still copyrighted by the original 
author, not at all by the person who derived it. Even the changed parts 
are copyrighted by the original author no matter who does the changes. 
This is known as a derivative work. If you start from a clean paper or 
file and type or write the entire thing, you own the copyright. If you 
start with someone elses code and make changes, the other person still 
owns the copyright on the entire work. This is what makes the GPL work. 
When the original author licenses code through the GPL, he agrees that 
you can distribute it, modify it and use it, but you can't change the 
copyright and you can't change the licensing terms.


Ideas are not expressions of things. Ideas are esoteric, thus there is a 
different system evolved around protecting them. Patents protect ideas. 
Not copyrights.


And unlike copyright, where copyright is automatic when you express 
something, patents are not automatic.


In the free world, most countries have agreed on this structure of 
limits and protections. This is far beyond a gentlemen's agreement.

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Re: [Harbour] Some xhb developers giving no credit when copying work from Harbour

[Phil Barnett]

Viktor Szakáts wrote:

Hi Phil and All,

I'm planning to add this (or similar) text to the top of our ChangeLog 
file:


---
/* Copyright notice:
   All text in this file holds the copyright of respective authors seen in
   the entry headers if not indicated otherwise. Copying or other forms of
   usage is only permitted while giving credit to author including his/her
   full name, plus the text "Harbour Project" or "Harbour". In all other
   cases, usage requires explicit permission from author. Exception: 
Example

   code falls under the standard Harbour license found in COPYING.
*/
---
Before you do this, please pass it in front of the FSF and ask them if 
it is acceptable to maintain the GPL status. Also, I believe you can 
only change the license terms of code that contains your copyright.

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Re: [Harbour] Some xhb developers giving no credit when copying work from Harbour

[Phil Barnett]

Szakáts Viktor wrote:

Hi Phil,


/* Copyright notice:
  All text in this file holds the copyright of respective authors 
seen in
  the entry headers if not indicated otherwise. Copying or other 
forms of
  usage is only permitted while giving credit to author including 
his/her

  full name, plus the text "Harbour Project" or "Harbour". In all other
  cases, usage requires explicit permission from author. Exception: 
Example

  code falls under the standard Harbour license found in COPYING.
*/
---
Before you do this, please pass it in front of the FSF and ask them 
if it is acceptable to maintain the GPL status. Also, I believe you 
can only change the license terms of code that contains your copyright.


This only applies to text in ChangeLog, and specifically
states that everyone is aquiring this copyright note for
his/her own entries, so I'm not changing terms for anyone
else's work here. If this seems to be a problem I will
modify the text to apply only to my own entries.

I'd appreciate if someone could test this against FSF, but
for me this'd take too much time, so I probably won't be
able to do it.
All you have to do is to email it to them and ask them if it will change 
the terms of our license. I believe it does and should not be done until 
the FSF says it's ok. Adding this anywhere in the project might negate 
our GPL protection. That would be bad.

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Re: [Harbour] Some xhb developers giving no credit when copying work from Harbour

[Phil Barnett]

Szakáts Viktor wrote:

Two better links:

CC-by-sa:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

GFDL:
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html

Brgds,
Viktor

On 2009.04.28., at 10:13, Viktor Szakáts wrote:


I did some research and considering that ChangeLog counts as
documentation (not code), I've found the following option for
proper copyright protection for these elements of Harbour:

- Creative Commons: cc-by-sa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses

- FSF GFDL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Free_Documentation_License

Both require credits to be given (attribution), cc-by-sa is also
compatible with Debian folks AFAICS.

IMO we should protect *all* our docs with such license, this
includes uppercased files in root and docs/man dirs. I'd prefer
the Creative Commons license as it's much more known than
GFDL, but please comment, I'm not a lawyer.

Brgds,
Viktor

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Phil Barnett  wrote:
Szakáts Viktor wrote:
Hi Phil,

/* Copyright notice:
 All text in this file holds the copyright of respective authors seen in
 the entry headers if not indicated otherwise. Copying or other forms of
 usage is only permitted while giving credit to author including his/her
 full name, plus the text "Harbour Project" or "Harbour". In all other
 cases, usage requires explicit permission from author. Exception: 
Example

 code falls under the standard Harbour license found in COPYING.
*/
---
Before you do this, please pass it in front of the FSF and ask them 
if it is acceptable to maintain the GPL status. Also, I believe you 
can only change the license terms of code that contains your copyright.


This only applies to text in ChangeLog, and specifically
states that everyone is aquiring this copyright note for
his/her own entries, so I'm not changing terms for anyone
else's work here. If this seems to be a problem I will
modify the text to apply only to my own entries.

I'd appreciate if someone could test this against FSF, but
for me this'd take too much time, so I probably won't be
able to do it.
All you have to do is to email it to them and ask them if it will 
change the terms of our license. I believe it does and should not be 
done until the FSF says it's ok. Adding this anywhere in the project 
might negate our GPL protection. That would be bad.
I think it is much too late to change the license because we will not be 
able to find the original authors on all code. The alternative would be 
to perform a survey and see exactly how much code is involved in that limit.


Having two licenses, one for part of the code and one for another part 
of the code would be a disaster.


Is this all about Attribution? Nothing personal at all here, but Vanity 
is one of the seven deadly sins and leads to many downfalls. I try to 
avoid all 7 of them but at times it's very difficult. We are only human.


If you really feel strongly about this and we gain community support I 
have no problem with relicensing. But it's gotta be all or none.

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Re: [Harbour] Some xhb developers giving no credit when copying work from Harbour

[Phil Barnett]

Viktor Szakáts wrote:

Hi Phil,

You write about code, while my intent isn't to change any code 
license at all. My intent is to *add* license for non-code, particularly 
my non-code parts and future additions, these parts didn't have any 
license so far. Having two licenses is no problem at all, since code 
and non-code (docs/text) are two different things with very different 
licensing issues, hence FSF came out with GFDL and that's the whole 
point of CC's existence. Code and non-code are very easy to distinguish 
by the file type. This new license is endorsed by both FSF and CC, 
and even by Debian, or at least the goal is that they be compatible with 
all important entities.
So, you want to license the change log? If we are adding licenses to 
unlicensed things, I don't have a problem with that.


Please be more specific what kind of disaster you expect here.

[ Flagging this as "vanity" is yet another interesting attribute I see 
here, 
and I don't even want to go great length into this, some of us were 
contributing for many years, for a huge amount of time and watching names 
hidden, yes, it is bothering. For me this is the only kind of reward I 
may be 
getting for all this, and this doesn't cost money even. I'm just using 
some 
free licenses to protect my works, this is fair and legal, and notice 
that 
I've chosen fairly allowing alternatives to resolve this issue. ]


Brgds,
Viktor


I"m sure you have heard the term, 'Standing on the Shoulders of Giants' 
before. When you write code, you stand on the Shoulders of other Giants. 
The guys that wrote the operating system, the people who created the 
computer, the teams that created the compilers, etc.


When other people borrow from your work and stand on top of it, You are 
the Giant. To me, this seems like flattery, not lack of reward. I guess 
we all view this differently.

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[Harbour] Mailing list slowness

[Phil Barnett]

Ok, I have the mailing list slowness fixed and the speed should be back 
to normal.


There was a mail directory on the machine with nearly 500k messages 
(spam that was supposed to be only redirected to the trash bin) and the 
machine was struggling with that. I cleared it out and set up a cron job 
to keep it clean.


Now the machine is running back to normal.

You can see the effect here:

http://www.linuxceptional.com/mrgt/taz_la.html

Sorry 'bout that.
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Re: [Harbour] List problems still

[Phil Barnett]

Massimo Belgrano wrote:

Can be evalutated moving mailing  to google or yhaoo group?
 it can be accessible hrough the web interface, or by e-mail.
 it have better attachment management
 For example for gogole group you can visit  Discuss developing
Android applications using the Android framework (Member: 18000
Messages: 55000)
http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?lnk=


Naturally thanks to Phil for his effort

2009/5/16 Viktor Szakáts :
  

Hi Phil and All,
We're still having apparently serious mailing list problems, some
mails didn't yet arrive from two days ago. (I'm getting two copies
of all commit mails, one directly from sf.net, one via the list, so
it's easy to see). Unfortunately we don't know what else mails we
are missing. Mails are also arriving out of order. This is so since
more than a week.
It makes coop very difficult... Phil, could you check what's happening?
Brgds,
Viktor


It's fixed.
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Re: [Harbour] Harbour nomination for sf.net best project/best dev tool

[Phil Barnett]

Vailton Renato wrote:

Yesterday and today I was missing and therefore could not respond, but
it is at least 3 days that I have all the changes the site ready and I
can not update the site!

I do not know if there is any relation with the problem of e-mail
list, but the FTP is not even asking for username and password ...
apparently the FTP service is disabled, how can I do to update your
content?

c:\Projects> ftp ftp.harbour-project.org
Connected to the harbor-project.org.
Connection terminated by remote host.
I would prefer that you use scp, however it appears that a new version 
of proftp was being disturbed by a depricated directive in one of the 
scripts that I used to set it up for ftp on the legacy site The Oasis. I 
made a small change to the config and it's starting fine now.


Thanks for letting me know.
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Re: [Harbour] Extensions - possible cleanup?

[Phil Barnett]

Alex Strickland wrote:

Szakáts Viktor wrote:


Not just a habit, Harbour (and of course hbmk2) also supports
DOS, and potentially other such limited OSes/filesystems where
LFN isn't available. So in Harbour core we stick to 8.3 names.


Perhaps it is time to drop support for those limits. I cannot imagine 
them pertaining to any development environment commonly in use today?


This change would not stop anyone deploying to one of those OS's. The 
only one I can think of would be DOS. I would say the situation would 
be similar to cross-compiling for CE, I doubt anyone wants harbour to 
run on CE, just to deploy harbour apps to it. 
Our primary goal is near 100% backwards compatibility with Clipper 
5.2/5.3. That in itself means we need to support DOS.


It's difficult to understand what the world wants to do with Harbour 
Project in the future.

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Re: [Harbour] Updated: www.harbour-project.org & some ideias...

[Phil Barnett]

Vailton Renato wrote:

Updated the main page of the project with a link into the right side
and also in the news section. Here in Brazil I made the call in many
programming forums for all support our project in the voting link on
our page.

I would like take this opportunity to comment on some ideas for our
site ... I believe that with the launch of the next release we can put
more content on our site including things like:

* Uhttp - demonstrates the use of resources such as threads, Mutex,
support INET () among others.

* INSTALL - I'm thinking of putting as an "article" about how to
"download, compile and install the HB"

* HBMK2 - An article with some simple examples on how to use it with
Linux, Windows and even with FW, hwGUI.

I'm still developing more ideas, any suggestions will be welcome.
  


Sounds good. The site looks great, thanks for all the work you have put 
into it for all of us!

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Re: [Harbour] Re: Source code formatter

[Phil Barnett]

Alexander S.Kresin wrote:

Paul,


Hi Alexander and All,

I ported Click to Harbour for use on Linux.  The code is untested on 
Windows but may compile and run.   Added "Calls to" information in 
function headers and made stand alone executable.  Need to update 
code in few days but current source and bin is posted on Google Code 
under harbourclick.

harbourclick 



  As I wrote before, I used Click for a long time, but there are some 
problems ( maybe, bugs ), which forced me to look for other formatter.


  Probably, because Click doesn't know about some Harbour's control 
structures, it moves comments to other lines sometimes.


  The real problems for me bacames when I tried to set 
CASE_OF_FUNCTIONS=LIKEINFILE. I thought that Click simply makes case 
conversion due to click.ini function patterns, but it tried to 
autocomplete some of them - this, of course, caused bugs in my source 
files, which I could find not immedeately (:.


  These all should be cleaned before using it with Harbour. 
If you can submit the smallest possible code fragments which display the 
bad behavior, it would help the debugging process. Yeah, autocomplete is 
pretty much only used to bring very old dbase or S87 code that uses 4 
character function and command names. (whoever thought that was a good 
idea had no idea the problems it would eventually cause)


If Click! doesn't work like you expect it to, it's broken and we can 
work on fixing it. It's nice to see that someone has already started the 
work to bring Click! into the future. Thanks, Paul.

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Re: [Harbour] dev -> rc1

[Phil Barnett]

Viktor Szakáts wrote:

Hi All,

Is there anything against going rc1?

I also like to propose to change our version number,
as we've definitely done more that 0.1 is worth, also
xhb is now at 1.2, while feature-wise we're ahead.

Any opinions on these?

1.) 1.1.0rc1 (next logical)
2.) 1.2.0rc1 (current xhb major rev)
3.) 1.4.0rc1 (my vote)


After reading through all the comments, I must say that programmers are 
certainly not very good marketers, which is what you are trying to 
accomplish. Good.


I agree that we can step it up. Why not 2.0.0?

I've seen bigger upgrade jumps in software that didn't have 1/100th of 
the changes in this product between now and our last release. There's 
nothing to feel guilty about.


I say, 2.0.0 and don't worry about the competition.
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Re: [Harbour] comp.lang.clipper as public forum for Harbour users

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/10/2009 09:45 AM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:
I don't think Harbour issues are unwelcome on the xHarbour group, 
but it may confuse people.

I think the ideal would be able to count on a structure itself, so we
can concentrate on our project without having to give support or get
information about other tools like xHarbour. Because the philosophy of
the Harbor project and can not be compared with this  latter because
it would be an underestimate this work so seriously that all you have
done here ...


Yes.


I'm not sure we need a PORTAL.

Viktor, if we put a forum (phpBB or similar) on our website help?
Certainly be necessary to assess the costs of monthly transfer, etc
... But even a forum needs to have a form of authorization to prevent
spam.

Another option would be news as news.harbour-project.org (but do not
know how this works) ...
=(

I ask this just to understand if we can help here from Brazil in any 
way ...


Thanks for your support. I used to believe in forums, but cannot
really tell what makes some of them work and some others don't.
Ppl need to be attracted there somehow, and there is nothing worse
than an dead forum.

I'd personally vote yes for a Harbour forum, probably this +
comp.lang.clipper is enough to give user proper support. Given
that users also know about them, feel them comfortable and useful.

I'd at the same time consider deleting our user mailing list and
redirect users to above places, since it seemingly doesn't function
too well, with 10-20 messages per month. User names still cannot
be seen on the web archive page, which makes it even more confusing
to browse it and very non-personal.

IMO ideally we should add the forum to our website to present
a coherent feel for the users, so let's hear what Phil says, is
it possible to setup one? I'd vote for at least phpPP for the
engine, or something better, if there is one.

Also, I'd like to strongly ask others about this, please give as
much input as you can, even if this isn't a development question.
There are probably ppl among us who are much better qualified
to help making the best decision here.


Sorry, I'm a few days behind on reading my mail.

I think there's very little difference between a forum, a newsgroup, a 
mailing list or any other form of interactive information exchange.


If we want postings to the user forums, we need to advertise it.

Like a big entry on the site that says Users, ask your questions on this 
mailing list to get help fast!


You would have to promote any forum, newsgroup or mailing list to make 
it successful.


It has been my experience that any of the three can be abused. Clearly, 
newsgroups are abused and that is why many ISP's are dropping the entire 
newsgroup structure. Recently, AT&T has told all of their users to find 
another way to access newsgroups, they are dropping their newsgroup 
service forever. Seems like the handwriting is on the wall for the death 
of newsgroups in general.


So, that leaves mailing lists and forums. I have no specific preference 
and I've seen both be successful and I've seen both fail. I don't think 
the method is as important as having inertia is. Let's try pumping up 
the user mailing list, possibly consider renaming it to something the 
clearly conveys support.


Forums have really been problematic in being compromised and used for 
many bad things, so I tend to stay towards mailing lists.


I think newsgroups are futile.
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Re: [Harbour] Harbour forum tryout

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/11/2009 09:42 AM, Vailton Renato wrote:


In my opinion it is tiring, that you should be looking at various
places to see if already exists an answer to your question and I
believe that having a language by default, will be easier for all...
This would be an incentive for all to make efforts in order to
maintain a union in the group for the good of all.

Of course, this is only my opinion, what do you think?
   


English is the language of technology around the world, not just for 
programming.

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour forum tryout

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/12/2009 11:25 AM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

AFAIK it is also possible to install phpBB under the:
http://harbour-project.sf.net/forum/
link (or anywhere inside our sf.net hp), but in this
case we must do the installation and maintenance.


Or we can install directly into http://www.harbour-project.org/forum.
Independent of URI the stage of installation and maintenance is not
complicated and I can help because I have done this before, even on
other sites.


It would be the best.

Phil, can you support such solution?


In the past, every single forum, shared photo solution, or other canned 
packages have been compromised within a year of being installed.


I'd prefer to stick to mailing lists.

Let's compare how forums work compared to mailing lists.

Joining:

Forum   Need to join and confirm by email before you can post.
Mail  Need to join and confirm by email before you can post

Speed:

ForumAs soon as you post, everyone can read it.
Mailing As soon as you post, it is sent to everyone.

software

Forum:   Browser, everyone has one or more.
Mail:  eMail. Everyone has one or more.

Searching:

Forum:Only as good as the package you are using allows it to be.
Mailing list: We can search our archives with Google.

Control

Forum: Admins have control. The host always has advertising on the pages.
Mailing: Admins have control. Since mailing lists are hosted on my 
server, there is no advertising.


Spam

Forum: people can join and spam
mail: people can join and spam.


Overall, I just don't see much difference. People keep making this 
argument, but there isn't much difference between a bbs forum and a 
mailing list. Have we actually promoted our user support mailing list? 
Have we added a Google search link? Is it obvious on our main page? If 
we haven't, it's failed because nobody knows about it.

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Re: [Harbour] comp.lang.clipper as public forum for Harbour users

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/14/2009 03:24 AM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

We also have the "missing name" problem with our existing mailing list
archive. It has been reported her a few times as a problem, but you
didn't answer to these, maybe you missed it, or is this feature intentional?
It makes very strange to look at messages where you have no clue who
posted them. It's not even possible most of the time to tell who is asking
and who is answering
   


I can turn this feature on and off. It's off to keep spammers from 
trolling our archives and getting all of the email addresses so they can 
have new spamming potential.


It's a simple change if we want to expose ourselves to such.

If you believe that users will do better in a forum for less investment, 
then I'm ok with it. Just enter with the expectation that it will be 
compromised and it will need to be dumped and rebuilt from backups once 
in a while.


If the spammers would simply vanish, this would be a much easier 
solution and I would be much easier on it. But reality is that it will 
get broken. Unfortunate but likely.


I'm not going to stand in the way and your reasoning seems solid.

But I would like for the developers list to stay on email since it has 
momentum here. There are hundreds of people reading this list.

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour forum tryout

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/14/2009 03:52 AM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

We have it on our website since at least 1 year. The list is sadly
looking anonymous, and very few developers are lurking there.
   
I'm looking at our main page and I see no information about our mailing 
list for users. Can you tell me where it is hiding?

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour forum tryout

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/14/2009 02:02 PM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

But, please tell me, is it intentional that all sender names
are the same ("harbour-users at harbour-project.org") ?:
---
Starting: Thu May 21 17:43:03 EDT 2009
Ending: Thu May 28 21:33:47 EDT 2009
Messages: 16


• [Harbour-users] OS Language   harbour-users at harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] Harbour's own RDD   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] Re: Harbour's own RDD   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] Harbour's own RDD   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org

• [Harbour-users] OS Language   harbour-users at harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] OS Language   harbour-users at harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] How to compile   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org
• [Harbour-users] ODBC on MSWindows   harbour-users at 
harbour-project.org 

These are not the From:, they are the Reply-to:.

I see the names in my email that every message is from. Perhaps it's 
some setting in your email package. I'm using Thunderbird.


Here is an entire header from the email that I am replying to. As you 
can see, the From: line has your email address in it. The Reply-To: is 
the one you are listing above. (I'm going to obscure your address just a 
little...)


From - Sun Jun 14 14:04:02 2009
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 
Delivered-To: ph...@philb.us
Received: by 10.220.84.145 with SMTP id j17cs211962vcl;
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Return-Path:
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by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 6si2504281ywi.45.2009.06.14.11.02.54;
Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:02:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 208.111.3.146 is neither permitted nor 
denied by best guess record for domain of harbour-boun...@harbour-project.org) 
client-ip=208.111.3.146;
Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 208.111.3.146 
is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of 
harbour-boun...@harbour-project.org) 
smtp.mail=harbour-boun...@harbour-project.org
Received: (qmail 15194 invoked from network); 14 Jun 2009 14:02:54 -0400
Received-SPF: pass (taz5.fiberhosting.net: localhost is always allowed.) 
client-ip=127.0.0.1; envelope-from=harbour-boun...@harbour-project.org; 
helo=taz5.fiberhosting.net;
Received: from localhost (HELO taz5.fiberhosting.net) (127.0.0.1)
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Received-SPF: none (no valid SPF record)
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(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:02:45 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id:
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Viktor_Szak=E1ts?=
To: "Harbour Project Main Developer List."
In-Reply-To:<4a35192f.1030...@philb.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Subject: Re: [Harbour] Harbour forum tryout
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:02:43 +0200
References:<18d502870906101534x7998e099s438002d3700cc...@mail.gmail.com>  <07cc683c-4164-4598-b0cd-7726d1126...@syenar.hu>  
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<7dc98ae9-1619-4056-96a5-e9d6745fb...@syenar.hu>  <4a322274.5040...@zen.co.uk>  
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Re: [Harbour] Harbour forum tryout

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/14/2009 07:19 PM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

As you can see, the dev list has proper names of sender,
while the user list is completely blind and sender is
always the same generic address. IOW, the archive page
of users list cannot easily be used in practice to lookup
information. 

Got it.

I think it's fixed, but we should probably move forward with a web forum.
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Re: [Harbour] Re: uhttpd v0.2

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/15/2009 12:52 PM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

but hbhttpd looks a bit strange, or I don't know


Actually, I like that.
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Re: [Harbour] http://www.harbour-project.com/

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/16/2009 07:40 PM, Bruno Luciani wrote:

anybody see this

http://www.harbour-project.com/


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We used to own it. We let it go years ago.
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Re: [Harbour] Harbour will pay professional documentation !?!

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/22/2009 03:34 AM, Patrick Mast wrote:
Hannes Ziegler is the one who wrote xHDN's documentation ( 
http://www.xHarbour.com/xHDN ) for xHarbour.com. So, yes, you are 
correct, he is a very good technical writer! Actually one of the best 
in the field!


Now, I was thinking.. why reinvent the wheel?

xHDN's documentation is written in a simple TXT format that everyone 
can read and understand. The TXT files can be converted to CHM, HTML 
and even PDF. If the Harbour community compensate us for just 80% of 
what we actually paid Hannes Ziegler we'll be happy to change the 
license of xHDN's documentation to any license you guys prefer. This 
gives the Harbour community a quick start up. This also brings Harbour 
and xHarbour efforts together in one great documentation effort.


What do you guys think about this idea?

Patrick

That depends on how much you paid him. What was the figure?
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Re: [Harbour] Harbour will pay professional documentation !?!

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/24/2009 01:34 PM, Patrick Mast wrote:

Hello Phil,

   

That depends on how much you paid him. What was the figure?
 

Hannes started writing xHarbour doc's in November 2005 and finished
them April 2007. We paid him USD $38,800.00 for this job.
   

A healthy sum. I'm going to defer to Viktor's line of thinking here.

Harbour Project has no pocket in which to keep it's money, so there 
isn't any. Any further thinking along these lines should take that into 
account.
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Re: [Harbour] SF.net SVN: harbour-project:[11528] trunk/harbour

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/25/2009 08:33 PM, dru...@users.sourceforge.net wrote:

Revision: 11528
   
http://harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net/harbour-project/?rev=11528&view=rev
Author:   druzus
Date: 2009-06-26 00:33:38 + (Fri, 26 Jun 2009)
   

Simply amazing! You are brilliant.
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Re: [Harbour] HArbour List Moderator

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/26/2009 05:12 PM, Bruno Luciani wrote:

I like to know who is the list moderator



I am, Bruno.

And I already explained to you that there is a file size limit on this 
email list.


You have several choices.

1. Paraphrase your problem and post a portion of the log.
2. Put the file on a web site somewhere and send us a link so interested 
parties can get it.

3. Ask here who wants it and send it to them.

We have many hundreds of people listening on this email list and large 
files would have to be mailed to all of them, so we limit it to 40k.


It's nothing personal.

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Re: [Harbour] How many Binary version need for linux?

[Phil Barnett]

On 06/30/2009 04:04 AM, Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, Szak�ts Viktor wrote:
   

Besides the packaging (.deb/.rpm/.tgz), I also wonder why
we need to create one for every distro.
And could we possibly do anything to make Harbour
"distro-independent".
 


We cannot due to different binary dependencies in different Linux
distribution. I do not believe that we will find anyone who can
precisely document all binary dependencies inside compiled Harbour
binaries and then will have enough knowledge about binary compatibility
in other packages and distributions to be sure which combinations
do not create potential troubles.

Maybe in the future Harbour will be default part of the most popular
distributions so binary distribution will not be our problem.
   
You can statically link in all the libraries. It makes a huge exe, but 
it has no dependencies after that.
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Re: [Harbour] Przemek as Project Admin

[Phil Barnett]

On 07/07/2009 11:25 AM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

Hi All,

I'd like inform everyone, that I've added Przemek as Project Admin.
Pls be welcome now in this role.

At the same time I've removed David G Holm from this role,
as he's no longer participating according to his page:
http://harbour.netfang.net/
I'd like you to think about taking the lead seat on the project as the 
primary Project Admin.



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Re: [Harbour] Przemek as Project Admin

[Phil Barnett]

On 07/22/2009 05:36 AM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

First of all, sorry to hear you can't take the role anymore,
but I'm sure you have good reason.

Here's the deal. When I took the role, I made a rule for myself that I 
would be the leader, but I would only dwell on leading, not on coding. 
Then, at work, they made huge shifts away from using Clipper and X in 
general, so that entire process has led me away from daily use of the 
language. As you remember, I lived in the Clipper code every day and 
night prior to this and I knew it cold inside and out. While I have kept 
up mentally with what has happened here over the years, I have not been 
coding with Harbour. During this same time, I adopted a teenage boy and 
it has been an experience watching him grow up and become a man. But 
that was time consuming as well. We home schooled him to get him caught 
up. And now he is married and living with us.


Anyway, my original goal was to get this project to the 1.0 release, and 
that has been accomplished. And you are all nearly ready with version 
2.0, which is a great milestone in the Harbour future.


I'm very proud to have been a part of this project. I entered it with 
passion and I will only hand it over to someone who also has 
demonstrated great passion. There are many here that meet that criteria, 
but In this group, I feel that you and Przemek are leading already. He 
has made the point several times that his heart is not in leading the 
project but in being an amazing coder, which he is. He is the lead 
programmer. No doubt.



If group also agrees, and there are no other members who'd
like to take it, I see no problem to take the "lead seat", at
the same time I very much hope you will stay around with us
and help us with wise words. 


Of course I will. If you have questions, please feel free to email me. 
I'm probably going to stop reading every message that is posted here but 
I'll try to keep up with the trends and winds of change.


I will continue to host portions of the project on my server as you see 
fit and I'll keep the domain name alive or transfer it over to you. It's 
all up to you, and I trust you will do what is right for this very 
amazing project.


And I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed. The contributions 
here have all come from the heart and have been filled with the passion 
of wanting only the best for the future of this great language. It 
simply doesn't get any better than this. You all have done a great 
service for Clipper users all over the world.


Thanks for everything and good luck in the future. I know you will 
substitute skill for luck, but you get the idea, right?


Phil.
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Re: [Harbour] Przemek as Project Admin

[Phil Barnett]

On 07/22/2009 06:58 PM, Viktor Szakáts wrote:

Phil I would like to thank you very much for all your work and
always very import for me judgement voice. I hope the at least in
the most important for the future of this project decisions we can
count on your intellect. Without you we have never reached current
state in Harbour development.
Thank you very much.


I agree with every words said, couldn't have said it better.

Huge thanks from me too, even for the times before Harbour (The Oasis, 
c.l.c).


Brgds,
Viktor 


Thanks everyone for the kind words. My life is richer because of all of 
you. Thanks!


Viktor, I'll leave you with these thoughts which in the long run, showed 
me a great gain in my life.


1. Always take the high road.

If you come to a point where you wonder, is this guy crazy or does he 
have a good idea, always take the high road. Maybe he is crazy, but if 
you always take the high road, you give him the benefit of the doubt and 
let it look like a good idea until it either lives in greatness or 
perishes in foolishness. This will happen regardless of you taking the 
low road or high road, but one way you look a heck of a lot better.


So many times I had to sit and think, sometimes for days, before I would 
weigh in and push in one direction or another. And more often than not, 
my decision was to take the high road. It seemed to work well for me and 
for this project for many years and I hope it will be of value to you. 
It has rubbed off onto other parts of my life and it has become a normal 
part of the way I live my life. It is the way I am now, mostly because 
this great project required me to learn how to do it.


2. Someone must be in control.

Historically, transitions of power occurred only after a battle was 
fought. More recently in history, we have figured out how to transition 
power without a war. I feel this is one of those times. I'm comfortable 
with you taking the Project Lead role. I expect your vision is different 
than mine and that is ok.


3. The people working for you are volunteers.

If they don't like the work or their boss, they will quit. What makes 
them stay is recognition and pride. Every once in a while you need to 
make it clear to your volunteers that you need them and that they are 
doing a good job and you are proud of them. It's their pay. Without 
this, they are working for no reason and will drift away until they are 
all gone. You have a great team surrounding you. Take care of them and 
they will take care of you.


I'll be watching and learning, as always.

Phil.
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Re: [Harbour] (x)Harbour Corner

[Phil Barnett]

On Saturday 09 August 2008 07:26:11 am Massimo Belgrano wrote:
> There is same interesting information about (x)harbour in this web site
>
> : http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/angeiras/
>
> Is present also a documentation of gtwvw ( mix traditional SAY/GET with
> HUI elements for an easy and fast migration with .Multiple Windows
> Support and some native Windows controls as statusbar, toolbars,
> textbar, scrollbars
> and pushbuttons).

Massimo,

Can you please put this type of non developer posting on Harbour-Users mailing 
list in the future? I'd like to keep this list directly for development 
details.

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Re: [Harbour] Can i update Harbour web site?

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 10 August 2008 01:07:44 pm Massimo Belgrano wrote:
> Can i update Harbour web site?
> http://www.harbour-project.org/

Looks like a good update for this page:

http://www.harbour-project.org/links.htm

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[Harbour] Fwd: SourceForge.net Project Web/Shell/Database Migration on 2008-08-18

[Phil Barnett]

--  Forwarded Message  --

Subject: SourceForge.net Project Web/Shell/Database Migration on 2008-08-18
Date: Wednesday 06 August 2008
From: "SourceForge.net Team" 

Greetings,

The date for the migration of the project web, database and shell services
to the new Chicago data center is 2008-08-18 starting at 05:00 Pacific
(12:00 UTC). This message is being sent to project admins to let you know
what to expect ahead of time. Should someone else on your team who is not a
project admin need this information, forward it to them. Please note, this
migration will involve a service downtime, as detailed below.

List of changes by service:

Project Web - http://sf.net/community/forum/topic.php?id=2840
Project Shell - http://sf.net/community/forum/topic.php?id=2838
Project Database - http://sf.net/community/forum/topic.php?id=2839


Here's how we are going to do the migration:

1. We will revoke write access to all project content on the project shell
service, web and database. Read operations will continue to work in the old
data center. Some applications may be impacted by lack of write access.
There is no need to report such issues to us during the migration.

2. We will disable shell access.

3. We will have already copied the data to the new data center. A final
copy of all project group file content and /tmp/persistent content will be
sent to the new data center at this time.

4. We will confirm proper service operation.

5. DNS will be updated to point to the new data center.

6. Projects will then need to make application changes and move data to new
locations to match software to new data center environment.



We expect the data copy and service cutover to take about 8 hours. This is
exclusive of MySQL database migration.

While the above steps are happening we will be checking, fixing, dumping
and restoring databases from the old data center to the new. We currently
have no estimate as for how long that will take, but believe it will likely
take a few days. For projects that absolutely need their DB moved over
first, they should create a table named 'ch3priority', case sensitive, in
the important databases. We'll migrate those over first. Please only flag a
database as important if you can't wait as it will hold up other key
databases for projects from being imported as early as possible.

To address any questions users may have regarding this migration, we will
also be scheduling an IRC meeting with the SourceForge.net Service
Operations team. This meeting will be held on 2008-08-14 at 08:00 Pacific
(15:00 UTC) on irc.slashnet.org channel #sourceforge. Alternately, you may
submit your inquiries by Support Request at:
https://sf.net/tracker/?func=add&group_id=1&atid=21

Thank you,

The SourceForge.net Team

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Re: [Harbour] Release 1.0.0 FREEZED

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 13 August 2008 10:45:24 am Szakáts Viktor wrote:

> - We're done.

Wow! What a project! I'm so happy to see this day come.

Over 8 years ago, a group of volunteers from the usenet newsgroup 
comp.lang.clipper formed a dream and opened this mailing list on September 
16, 2000. We had a couple of months on another list, but I don't remember how 
long and it doesn't really matter. If anyone is interested in a compressed 
mbox of every message ever posted here, I have it. Email me. 35,992 developer 
messages!

This has been a long difficult project with huge variety of participants. Many 
amazing contributors. Many people stayed with the project for all 8 years. 
That takes sincere dedication and as the leader of The Harbour Project I 
thank you for being here whether you contributed one suggestion or spent 
thousands of hours over half a decade helping to get it to the finish line.

I would like to make special mention of VIktor Skazats and 
Przemyslaw 'Przemek' Czerpak. I think we can all agree that you have been 
pulling the moijority of the load for years now. Unselfishly, you have been 
on a relentless drive to the finish line. You remind me of the Olympians we 
have been watching on television this week. Thank you Viktor and Przemek! You 
both deserve a 'Gold Medal in Programming'.

And they were most certainly not without great help from dozens of other 
faithful contributors. I would like to personally extend my thanks to 
everyone who has been involved with Harbour Project in any way. We could not 
have done it without you. You helped us make it to this goal!

A monumental task for a group of volunteers spread around our planet. We did 
it to provide a basis for programming freedom in the future. We did it 
because it was a great challenge. We did it because we saw a language we love 
being intentionally put to death, possibly costing us our futures. Above all, 
I believe it has been a labor of love. Nothing else can make this much work 
come together and get finished against all odds.

What we have created is FAR beyond our original dreams. We have not only 
managed to stay true to our goal of creating a fully compatible Clipper 5.2e 
compiler, but we have also folded in an amazing array of advancements.

You all deserve a great round of applause.

Congratulations to everyone, past and present!

Clipper is dead. Long live Harbour Project!

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Re: [Harbour] SVN: Created tag harbour-1.0.0

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 13 August 2008 01:06:03 pm Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:

> And I would like to ask someone who can update Harbour home page
> to add me to developers list. I was not with you when the project
> started but in last years I created a lot of core code which is
> now heart of Harbour.
> As I can see also many other people should be added to this list.

No doubt, this page needs to be revised. I don't have time right now, but 
there's a chance I could parse the mailbox that I have saved all these years.

Przemek, you are without a doubt a PREMIER developer in this project.

See my other email. I think my feelings are well explained there.

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour Roadmap - Overview

[Phil Barnett]

On Thursday 14 August 2008 06:01:46 pm Pritpal Bedi wrote:
> Hello Everybody
>
> Here is a compiled overview of feature set for next
> version(s) not in a specifc order, though I have tried to
> put these in order of relevance with present times.
>
> [ Przemek's Descriptives in List Form + Few Addums ]
>
> []  Multi-Threading
>
> Basic Version
>subject to changes over the development phase
>
> Mature Version
>after settling how resources have to behave
>i.e. Statics, Globals, Publics, Aliases, Workareas, etc
>
>InSight existing modal could be Xbase++
>
> [] Central Event Message Queue
>
> [] MultiWindow GT
>
> [] GTNET with Remote Resource Sharing and Procedures Calls
>
> [] HRB Libraries
>
> [] RDDNET
>
> [] Strong Typing
>
> [] GT Runtime Switching
>
> [] New internal DBF* RDD API to not replicate the same
>code between different indexing RDDs
>
> [] SQL Queries for DBFs and other native RDDs
>
> [] SQLRDD
>
> [] Virtual Handle Support with User-Defined Streams
>
> [] Cleaned INET Support with C API
>
> [] Finishing i18n Support
>
> [] File Cache Support
>
> [] Full object support for pointer HB_ITEMs for easy
>- creating objects at C level and
>- adding new types to HVM
>
> [] Rewriting some part of compiler covered by pure
>GPL License with New License
>
> [] Portable GUI Component Library ( if possible )
>
>
> Regards
> Pritpal Bedi, INDIA-USA

Do we have a DOM style XML parser? I use that a lot in my current work.

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Re: [Harbour] Off topic: VS 2005 running on older O/S versions

[Phil Barnett]

On Friday 22 August 2008 04:05:44 pm Randy Portnoff wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Will a Harbour app build using VS 2005 still run on older versions of
> Windows (eg. 98, Me, 2000 and 2003)?

It will require the same version of the .net framework that you compile 
against. I believe by default that would be .net 2.0. As long ast that 
support library/system is installed, it will run.

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Re: [Harbour] Off topic: VS 2005 running on older O/S versions

[Phil Barnett]

On Saturday 23 August 2008 02:13:55 am Phil Barnett wrote:
> On Friday 22 August 2008 04:05:44 pm Randy Portnoff wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Will a Harbour app build using VS 2005 still run on older versions of
> > Windows (eg. 98, Me, 2000 and 2003)?
>
> It will require the same version of the .net framework that you compile
> against. I believe by default that would be .net 2.0. As long ast that
> support library/system is installed, it will run.

I guess I was thinking about a .net application from the application 
framework, not using the compiler to create a Harbour executable.

Of course, Viktor is correct, there are no external dependencies on the .net 
framework for Harbour compiled executables.

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Re: [Harbour] Suggestion for harbour web site?

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 27 August 2008 10:05:01 am Massimo Belgrano wrote:
> I propose rewritring from scratch web site, Removing from new structure
> Sample app,Documentation,sample apps Redefined simple menu
> Download/Community/News/Harbour word
>
> Is can use as model:
> http://www.web20generator.com/generated.aspx?l=66FF00&b=0099FF&g=66&n=H
>arbour

I really don't care much for html generators when it's so easy to write from 
scratch and have virtually no vulnerabilities. And frameworks that make it 
easy for you to create a web site make it easy for other people to compromise 
my server.

Every single compromise on my server in the last 10 years has come from some 
stupid web framework or idiotic web cgi script.

Come on. html is simple to write. Do you use a code generator for Harbour? The 
Harbour language is a hundred times more complex than html.

If we are going to settle on a html code generator, I want it to be open 
source and GPL so anyone can install it. There are an abundance of those, so 
pick one. And no frameworks, like Mambo or PHPBB or Joomla. Those are the 
worst for being compromised.

> I also suggest Using Perspective As wiki who not require database so is
> good for hosting with good editing capability http://www.high-beyond.com/
> or web can choice other from http://www.wikimatrix.org/

Perspective requires the .net runtime. This assumes a windows server. My 
server is running Linux

Also, MediaWiki requires PHP 5.x and currently this server is stuck at PHP 4.3 
due to a customer requirement.

If anyone wants to host the wiki, I can easily point a dns entry to it. i 
agree with Viktor that MediaWiki is an excellent choice.

In the mean time, when I gave you the keys to our web site, I created a 
complete backup of it, so feel free to wipe it out and start over. We can 
always get back to where we came from as a last resort.

But first, unless you agree to code html from scratch, we need to agree on a 
html generator. I like this one a lot. It's free, open source and it's 
wysiwyg. No framework. Works on Linux, Windows and Macintosh. Well supported.

http://www.nvudev.com/index.php

-- 
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[Harbour] Fwd: SourceForge.net Subversion service downtime scheduled 2008-09-04

[Phil Barnett]

--  Forwarded Message  --

Subject: SourceForge.net Subversion service downtime scheduled 2008-09-04
Date: Tuesday 02 September 2008
"SourceForge.net Team"


On 2008-09-04 at 04:00 UTC, Subversion service write operations will be
offline for no more than 24 hours.  During this time, Subversion write
operations (such as commit) will fail with an error.  Read operations
(checkout, ViewVC, etc.) will succeed as normal.  This downtime is being
used to migrate data on to new storage hardware and conduct performance
testing.  We are taking this downtime approach (leaving service online,
with write operations failing) to minimize the functional impact to users.

Questions or concerns regarding this downtime may be directed to
SourceForge.net staff by submitting a Support Request at
https://sourceforge.net/projects/alexandria/support/

Thank you,

Jacob Moorman
Director of Operations, SourceForge.net


-- 
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Re: [Harbour] Suggestion for harbour web site?

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 10 September 2008 03:58:50 am ABIX - Adam Jurkiewicz wrote:
> Maybe we can use it to create new Harbour
> Home Page?

No CMS. Static Pages.

People using CMS's on web sites are making it easy for the bad guys to hijack 
and proliferate spam and illegal software. I'm not going to participate.

How would you all like it if some government somewhere came down on our 
project for distributing kiddie porn? It has happened before.

-- 
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Re: [Harbour] Suggestion for harbour web site?

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 10 September 2008 05:10:10 am Massimo Belgrano wrote:
> We need also a cms lite multiplatform and who not require database
>
> Please post any Suggestion

As the project manager, I must insist... Static pages only. NO CMS. No dynamic 
pages. You cannot guarantee that the CMS or CGI or dynamic content you want 
to use is absolutely invulnerable. And therefore, it will not live on my 
server.

We have been over this several times.

We will be using static web pages. Use a web page editor or write them by 
hand. We suggested one that many agreed with and not a single person 
dissented. So, start using it and see what you can create. I hate to put a 
damper on your passions, but you appear to not be listening.

Please, go download NVU and start using it.

Here is the previous message that I wrote to the mailing list.

**

On Wednesday 27 August 2008 10:05:01 am Massimo Belgrano wrote:
> I propose rewritring from scratch web site, Removing from new structure
> Sample app,Documentation,sample apps Redefined simple menu
> Download/Community/News/Harbour word
>
> Is can use as model:
> http://www.web20generator.com/generated.aspx?l=66FF00&b=0099FF&g=66&n=H
>arbour

I really don't care much for html generators when it's so easy to write from 
scratch and have virtually no vulnerabilities. And frameworks that make it 
easy for you to create a web site make it easy for other people to compromise 
my server.

Every single compromise on my server in the last 10 years has come from some 
stupid web framework or idiotic web cgi script.

Come on. html is simple to write. Do you use a code generator for Harbour? The 
Harbour language is a hundred times more complex than html.

If we are going to settle on a html code generator, I want it to be open 
source and GPL so anyone can install it. There are an abundance of those, so 
pick one. And no frameworks, like Mambo or PHPBB or Joomla. Those are the 
worst for being compromised.

> I also suggest Using Perspective As wiki who not require database so is
> good for hosting with good editing capability http://www.high-beyond.com/
> or web can choice other from http://www.wikimatrix.org/

Perspective requires the .net runtime. This assumes a windows server. My 
server is running Linux

Also, MediaWiki requires PHP 5.x and currently this server is stuck at PHP 4.3 
due to a customer requirement.

If anyone wants to host the wiki, I can easily point a dns entry to it. i 
agree with Viktor that MediaWiki is an excellent choice.

In the mean time, when I gave you the keys to our web site, I created a 
complete backup of it, so feel free to wipe it out and start over. We can 
always get back to where we came from as a last resort.

But first, unless you agree to code html from scratch, we need to agree on a 
html generator. I like this one a lot. It's free, open source and it's 
wysiwyg. No framework. Works on Linux, Windows and Macintosh. Well supported.

http://www.nvudev.com/index.php

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Re: R: [Harbour] Suggestion for harbour web site?

[Phil Barnett]

On Thursday 11 September 2008 03:47:23 am Massimo Belgrano wrote:

> Your aproach seem very old

It's very secure. There are huge numbers of static web sites on the internet 
for this very reason. Slashdot.net. Woot.com. NewYorkTimes.com All static. 

Thousands of big sites are static.

> We can host out of your website  the cms

Aparrently you have a problem understanding that a CMS is NOT going to be 
hosted out of my server and that we have already made the decision to use 
static html. If you don't want to follow the decisions we are making here 
then we will find someone else to do the work.

Since this project was started, I have spent approximately $12,000 dollars to 
keep that server running. (about $1,500 a year plus hardware) Of course, not 
only for Harbour, but it's no small investment and I'm not going to risk it 
because you want something easy. I have many other sites on the server. Most 
of them are donated and the owners of the site pay me nothing for them, like 
Harbour.

I have seen this server become compromised in the past, the last time for 
Italian Porn. It was a Mambo CMS site, a CopperMine photo gallery and a 
geekweb site that led to the last three compromises. A site with static pages 
has never had a single problem.

Every time this happens I lose a week or two rebuilding the server and 
restoring over 100 sites and over 2000 mailboxes to operational status. I 
will do that again when I have to, but I'm not looking forward to it and I 
work hard at keeping it running smooth so I don't have to do that kind of 
work and wasted time.

But it's not just about my server. It's about our reputation. Every day, every 
server on the internet is attacked for vulnerability to the extent of 
thousands of attempts at breaking in each day. If you put vulnerable software 
on the internet eventually someone will take advantage of it. And CMS systems 
have been the very worst offenders offering dozens of easy vulnerabilities 
every year.

Static web pages have none of these problems and the server spends about 
1/100th of the processing and disk space resources to serve web pages.  
Static web pages come up very fast and are very secure against attack and 
cracking attempts.

Please let me know now if you are going to work with us in this way so I can 
advertise for a replacment if necessary.

Phil
Harbour Project Manager

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Re: R: [Harbour] Suggestion for harbour web site?

[Phil Barnett]

On Friday 12 September 2008 04:37:26 am Szakáts Viktor wrote:
> Hi Phil,
>
> Thanks for your great work on the server. I fully agree
> with all your concerns. Not to say that a dynamic site
> is an absolute no go in general, but only if properly
> justified, which - for Harbour - it is simply not.
>
> I'd suggest to "delegate" the website task to someone
> who is willing and able to actually start shuffling some
> bits around on the site (Renato's proposals are very nice
> candidates), because all I see is a lot of words, but
> there is little to none change, while the site layout
> is in its worst shape ever, lagging behind the 'product'
> itself.

You are exactly right.

Renato, do you want to update the site?

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[Harbour] Fwd: SourceForge.net Service Operations bulletin 2008-09-12

[Phil Barnett]

--  Forwarded Message  --

Subject: SourceForge.net Service Operations bulletin 2008-09-12
Date: Friday 12 September 2008
From: "SourceForge.net Team"

This message is being sent by SourceForge.net to all administrators of
SourceForge.net-hosted projects.

Questions or concerns regarding the contents of this
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Table of contents:

1. Site Status
2. Migration schedule and downtime announcements
3. New service: Hosted Apps
4. New service: Tracker 2 Beta
5. Conclusion


Section 1. SITE STATUS

We've received feedback in the past few months that project admins like
you want to be kept informed of any service downtimes which exceed 4
hours and the launch of any major new services.  We are sending out
today's mailing to all project admins to highlight the details of
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We're averaging about one of these mails per month; and we're only
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Section 2. MIGRATION SCHEDULE

The SourceForge.net Service Operations team is now actively working to
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Chicago datacenter.  The following migration events have been scheduled:

* On Monday, 2008-09-15, SourceForge.net user account mail aliases
(@users.sourceforge.net accounts) will be migrated as per:
http://sourceforge.net/community/forum/topic.php?id=3388&page

* On Monday, 2008-09-15, Project Web service for those projects already
running in Chicago (the "bigprojects" pool) will have a brief downtime
as we move data on to new storage hardware as per:
http://sourceforge.net/community/forum/topic.php?id=3411&page&replies=1

* On Tuesday, 2008-09-16, the remainder of Project Web will be migrated
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http://sourceforge.net/community/forum/topic.php?id=3410&page&replies=1

* Tentatively, on Wednesday, 2008-09-17, CVS service will be migrated
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* On Thursday, 2008-09-18, Mailing List service will be migrated (no
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http://sourceforge.net/community/forum/topic.php?id=3412&page



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Re: Fw: [Harbour] Suggestion for harbour web site?

[Phil Barnett]

On Friday 12 September 2008 10:01:20 pm Vailton Renato wrote:

> Absolutely! I need to be sent to me the correct texts to update the site.
> What is the best way to do this?

I will change the password and send you the access directions.

Then you can use the NVU editor to fetch the current site, modify it and 
reload it. You should not need any other tools to maintain the site.

http://www.nvudev.com/index.php

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Re: R: [Harbour] Suggestion for harbour web site?

[Phil Barnett]

On Friday 12 September 2008 02:12:46 pm Lorenzo Fiorini wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Szakáts Viktor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > Great, I surely am. Probably not alone, even.
>
> I'm not an English native speaker so I'll be very "schematic".
> I hope this will not sounds rude or offensive.
> My intention is only to find the best words to describe what I think
> is a masterpiece of the computer science :)
>
> I fear that "A 32/64 bits Cl*pper compiler" probably doesn't mean
> anything to the 99% of the programmers. I would suggest to change it
> to sth more generic like a "A smart language, powerful yet easy to
> learn and use" ( just to give the idea ).
>
> Also "Harbour is a compiler for the xBase superset language called
> Cl*pper..." is confusing and seems that Cl*pper is a superset of
> xBase.
> But Wikipedia says that xBase is: "xBase is the generic term for all
> programming languages that derive from the original dBASE
> (Ashton-Tate) programming language and database formats. These ..."
> and about Harbour it says: "Harbour is a modern, fast computer
> programming language. it is a Clipper-compatible compiler which is
> cross-platform, running on many operating systems (DOS, Microsoft
> Windows, Linux (32, 64), Unix (32, 64), Mac OS X, Windows CE, Pocket
> PC)."
>
> Here the "Clipper-compatible compiler which is cross-platform" seems
> to be the a feature of Cl*pper but about Clipper it says: "Cl*pper is
> a computer programming language that is used to create software
> programs that originally operated primarily under DOS. Although it is
> a powerful general-purpose programming language, it was primarily used
> to create database/business programs."
>
> Of course Harbour IS an "xBase language, 100% compatible with Cl*pper"
> but this is only the start. I think we should clearly state that
> Harbour is a full, powerful, modern language not simply "a compiler"
> of a legacy product.
>
> Also about "Why using it":
>
> "Harbour is proven to be stable, robust and efficient...", these kind
> of assertions are difficult to prove ( particularly for a 1.0 release
> ) and generic. Every computer language is claimed stable and robust.
>
> Instead I would mention thinks like:
>
> - it's easy to learn and to use
> - it has a powerful preprocessor
> - it has many "dynamic" programming features ( code blocks, macros, hrb )
> - it has an embedded database
> - it has many ready to use "extensions"

Fine with me. Lets start with some nice wording and it's not cast in stone. We 
can continue to groom it.

> best regards,
> Lorenzo

If we want to use the word Clipper on our web site, we need a footnote on the 
page that says Clipper is a registered trademark of Computer Associates.

That's all it takes to make it legal.

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Re: [Harbour] How difficult is to implement this alternative syntax?

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 10:52:03 am Lorenzo Fiorini wrote:
> 3) I'd like to have a switch that warns me if I've used "=" where is
> "ambiguos".

My Click! source code reformattor does this conversion for you in many cases.

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Re: [Harbour] How difficult is to implement this alternative syntax?

[Phil Barnett]

On Thursday 02 October 2008 09:57:48 am Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Oct 2008, Phil Barnett wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> > > 3) I'd like to have a switch that warns me if I've used "=" where is
> > > "ambiguos".
> >
> > My Click! source code reformattor does this conversion for you in many
> > cases.
>
> Maybe we can use it for Harbour .prg source formatting?
> I noticed that each of us has some own personal preferences
> and formats .prg code in a little bit different way.
> Some .prg code formatter like indent for .c can nicely help
> here.

It would be good and consistent for that use. I need to pull that code out and 
make sure it works ok under Harbour. I suspect it will work with no changes, 
I forget if I used any libraries with it but if memory serves, I stayed away 
from any propreitary code so anyone could compile it.

There's a lot of code in there that breaks source code up into atomic pieces, 
breaks runon phrases like mentioned earlier in another thread, modernizes it 
and aligns it for nice looks. I found that it makes code easier to work with 
in the long run.

The most important thing would be to find out where it needs updates to handle 
what is today's typical syntax for Harbour above and beyond what it does for 
Clipper, which was pretty complete. What is there so far is about a year of 
development time.

In the above case, Click! can figure out whether an = is used as a comparison 
or an assignment and replace = with := when it can make that determination. 
It also changes things like X = X + 1 to X++, etc.

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour website extremely slow

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 05 October 2008 07:27:32 am Enrico Maria Giordano wrote:

> It's already better now.

I didn't do anything.

You can see it's load and traffic performance graphs here:

http://www.linuxceptional.com/mrgt/

Doesn't look like anything exceptional was happening.

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 05 October 2008 12:59:12 pm Szakáts Viktor wrote:
> Hi Phil,
>
> May I suggest shutting down anonymous FTP uploads
> on our FTP?
>
> Actually the best would be to turn off FTP for our
> site completely. We're not using it, but internet
> users do, as used to find adult content in the 'incoming'
> dir.

The incoming directory is write only. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's built the way it is intentionally so that anyone can upload, but it takes 
a admin to move the file to an accessible section.

It's set that way for The Oasis and it's a server wide FTP setting.

Feel free to delete anything you find in that directory.

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour Web site - Preview #1

[Phil Barnett]

On Saturday 04 October 2008 10:44:09 pm Vailton Renato wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> I am working in recent days in layout and in some texts to the site of
> the project. I'm running with it to finish it as soon as possible.
>
> As I have difficulty with English, any help or suggestions will be welcome.
>
> Here's a preview of what I am working:
> http://harbour-project.org/preview/
>
> I've been working on these days and has already set the layout of the
> homepage, icons and menus on the site. I am starting work to place the
> appropriate text as set out some details.
>
> My next step will be put correct texts already on the pages.
>
> I used only HTML, put a banner across the top of the site and other
> details adjusted visual ... I hope and I expect comments like that.

It's very nice. Very pleasing and nice looking.

The only change I would suggest would be to left justify the paragraphs 
instead of full justify. I don't like the 'rivers of whilte' that full 
justification always creates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_(typography)

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 05 October 2008 09:34:01 pm Szakáts Viktor wrote:
> I don't feel like dealing with this problem on the daily
> maintenance level, just thought to mention it, maybe it can
> be fixed once and for all. We've also got site infection due
> to sniffed FTP passwords, so FTP is by no means safe.

That's why it's anonymous.Anonymous ftp is safe as long as it can't be used 
for both read and write. Passwords and FTP lack of security has been known 
for years. This server has been set this way now for at least 10 years and it 
hasn't caused any problem. Ilke I tell everyone that has a password, please 
don't use ftp. Use SCP. I did tell you that, right?

> BTW, daily snapshots are still very old. I'd think it'd be
> better to remove the links from the homepage, as it makes it
> look like Harbour development had stalled.
>
> Monthly and weekly SVN backups don't seem to work either,
> but that's less critical.

I tried to fix that the other day and didn't get it figured out. The jobs are 
running. They also don't do anything if I run them by hand, so I'll spend 
some time and get them going.

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 05 October 2008 09:34:01 pm Szakáts Viktor wrote:

> BTW, daily snapshots are still very old. I'd think it'd be
> better to remove the links from the homepage, as it makes it
> look like Harbour development had stalled.

Ok, I was not checking the right thing. What is running and working properly 
is the svn backups.

I'll make new jobs for the latest repository checkout.

What checkout command would you like me to use?

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 05 October 2008 10:16:07 pm Szakáts Viktor wrote:

> For the daily snapshots:
> svn export
> http://harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/harbour-project/trunk/ha
>rbour [ this will put the result in a 'harbour' subfolder. https also works
> BTW. ]

Ok, that's what I was already using. Just making sure.

Actually, I was cleaning out the co directory and using co. What's the 
difference between that and export?

> For SVN backups:
> rsync -av harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net::svn/harbour-project/* .

And this is what we have been using for the svn backups for some time now.

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 05 October 2008 10:32:22 pm Szakáts Viktor wrote:
> 'co' will create a full local development sandbox (updatable,
> committable), this means it will create all the SVN administration
> files (in hidden '.svn' subdirs in each dir), and all this will
> significantly grow the size of such local repository.
>
> 'export' on the other hand will get the pure SVN content only,
> without any administration overhead. It's perfect for snapshot
> archives.

-rw-r--r--   1 rootroot  9228135 Oct  5 22:23 harbour-checkout.1.bz2
-rw-r--r--   1 rootroot  5261372 Oct  5 22:55 harbour-checkout.bz2

Yeah, quite a difference. (I fixed the ownership of these in the shell script 
just now)

So, we can add a link to harbour-checkout.bz2 which I will update daily.

Or I can update it more than once if you think that's appropriate. Right now, 
it crons at 6 pm EST, which is midnight or later in Europe. We used to do it 
every three hours, which was probably overkill.

Right now, we're keeping the last 4 copies named .1.bz2 .2.bz2 .3.bz2, etc. I 
can also extend that to keep more.

It should all be working now.

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 05 October 2008 10:16:07 pm Szakáts Viktor wrote:
> For the daily snapshots:
> svn export
> http://harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/harbour-project/trunk/ha
>rbour [ this will put the result in a 'harbour' subfolder. https also works
> BTW. ]
>
> For SVN backups:
> rsync -av harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net::svn/harbour-project/* .

Do you have a script I can run to do a nightly build?

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 05 October 2008 11:18:47 pm Szakáts Viktor wrote:

> Great, many thanks.
>
> Just one last comment; so far the daily snapshots were called 'harbour-
> svn.tgz'
> and 'harbour-svn.zip' (these are linked from the homepage), .bz2 as an
> option
> is nice, but IMO we should keep .tgz and .zip too.
> Could you generate these, too?
>
> Also, the dailies would IMO better be named as
> 'harbour-nightly.[zip|tgz|bz2]'.

Done.

-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln5260914 Oct  6 03:31 harbour-nightly.4.bz2
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln6683920 Oct  6 03:31 harbour-nightly.4.tgz
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln8515888 Oct  6 03:31 harbour-nightly.4.zip
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln5260914 Oct  6 03:32 harbour-nightly.3.bz2
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln6683920 Oct  6 03:32 harbour-nightly.3.tgz
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln8515888 Oct  6 03:32 harbour-nightly.3.zip
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln5260914 Oct  6 03:34 harbour-nightly.2.bz2
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln6683920 Oct  6 03:34 harbour-nightly.2.tgz
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln8515888 Oct  6 03:34 harbour-nightly.2.zip
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln5260914 Oct  6 03:36 harbour-nightly.1.bz2
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln6683920 Oct  6 03:36 harbour-nightly.1.tgz
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln8515888 Oct  6 03:36 harbour-nightly.1.zip
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln5260914 Oct  6 03:37 harbour-nightly.bz2
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln6683920 Oct  6 03:37 harbour-nightly.tgz
-rw-r--r--   1 harbour psacln8515888 Oct  6 03:37 harbour-nightly.zip

Over the next 5 nights, these will pushed backwards and will reach back 4 
previous versions from then on.

The shells script is here: (line wrap got the export line)

#!/bin/bash

PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin; export PATH

rm -rf /var/www/vhosts/harbour-project.org/httpdocs/co/*

cd /var/www/vhosts/harbour-project.org/httpdocs/co

echo Nightly Harbour Subversion Checkout

svn export 
https://harbour-project.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/harbour-project/trunk/harbour
 
harbour

cd /var/www/vhosts/harbour-project.org/httpdocs

echo Create tarball of Repository Backup
echo BZip
rm -f harbour-nightly.temp.bz2
tar --use-compress-prog=bzip2 -cf harbour-nightly.temp.bz2 co/
rm -f harbour-nightly.4.bz2
mv harbour-nightly.3.bz2 harbour-nightly.4.bz2
mv harbour-nightly.2.bz2 harbour-nightly.3.bz2
mv harbour-nightly.1.bz2 harbour-nightly.2.bz2
mv harbour-nightly.bz2 harbour-nightly.1.bz2
mv harbour-nightly.temp.bz2 harbour-nightly.bz2

echo Tarball
rm -f harbour-nightly.temp.tgz
tar -czf harbour-nightly.temp.tgz co/
rm -f harbour-nightly.4.tgz
mv harbour-nightly.3.tgz harbour-nightly.4.tgz
mv harbour-nightly.2.tgz harbour-nightly.3.tgz
mv harbour-nightly.1.tgz harbour-nightly.2.tgz
mv harbour-nightly.tgz harbour-nightly.1.tgz
mv harbour-nightly.temp.tgz harbour-nightly.tgz

echo Zip
rm -f harbour-nightly.temp.zip
zip -r -q harbour-nightly.temp.zip co/
rm -f harbour-nightly.4.zip
mv harbour-nightly.3.zip harbour-nightly.4.zip
mv harbour-nightly.2.zip harbour-nightly.3.zip
mv harbour-nightly.1.zip harbour-nightly.2.zip
mv harbour-nightly.zip harbour-nightly.1.zip
mv harbour-nightly.temp.zip harbour-nightly.zip

chown harbour.psacln *

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Monday 06 October 2008 04:46:50 am Szakáts Viktor wrote:
> Here is a small patch to avoid the internal
> 'co' directory in the source archives:

I had to do a little more than that because the compressed files landed in the 
right directory, but it's essentially fixed to not have the co/ directory and 
that's what you wanted.

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Monday 06 October 2008 04:59:18 am Szakáts Viktor wrote:
> You can create the most generic binary build by
> going into 'harbour' dir of the nightly source,
> and running './make_tgz.sh'. The result will be
> a .tgz file in that 'harbour' dir. The exact .tgz
> name depends on the system, but this will be
> the only .tgz file there, so it's easy to find.

should that be

./mpkg_tgz.sh

?

I don't find make_tgz.sh there.

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Re: [Harbour] harbour-project.org anon FTP

[Phil Barnett]

On Monday 06 October 2008 04:59:18 am Szakáts Viktor wrote:
> You can create the most generic binary build by
> going into 'harbour' dir of the nightly source,
> and running './make_tgz.sh'. The result will be
> a .tgz file in that 'harbour' dir. The exact .tgz
> name depends on the system, but this will be
> the only .tgz file there, so it's easy to find.

harbour-1.1.0-dev-linux-nightly-build.tgz

will be created each night right after the evening checkout.

I'll have to update this when we change versions.

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Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Monday 06 October 2008 09:23:52 pm Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008, Pritpal Bedi wrote:
>
> Hi Pritpal,
>
> > Here are attached the results on 2 computers  with different
> > number of processors and operating systems.
> > And below are attached those log files.
>
> Thank you very much.
> As I can see only Enrico can reach good scalability on Intel and
> Windows. Quite good results has also Maurilio with Intel and OS2.
> But all of them are much worse then in my
> AMD Phenom 8450 Triple-Core Processor.
> Please note that most of the test loop does not have even single
> internal lock and should be fully scalable to the number of CPUs.
> I begin to think that this test quite well show hardware scalability.
> The performance may strongly depend also on used mainboard.
>
> Has anyone else AMD multiprocessor system?
>
> Phil,
> I know that you have one :-)
> Can you build Harbour in this system and then compiler and run
> harbour/tests/speetst.prg f.e.:
>
>hbmk -n -w -es2 -mt speedtst
>./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread:2
>./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread:4
>./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread:6
>./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread:8

Quad core Phenom 9600, 32 bit Fedora 9

[EMAIL PROTECTED] tests]$  ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale 

10/07/08 00:26:04 Linux 2.6.26.3-29.fc9.i686 i686
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9564) (MT) GNU C 4.3 (32 bit)
THREADS: 1  
N_LOOPS: 100
excluded tests: 029 030 023 025 027 040 041 043 052 053 019 022 031 032 054
1 th.  1 th.  factor

[ T001: x := L_C ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T002: x := L_N ]  0.18   0.14 ->  1.27
[ T003: x := L_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.03
[ T004: x := S_C ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.01
[ T005: x := S_N ]  0.14   0.18 ->  0.77
[ T006: x := S_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T007: x := M_C ]  0.16   0.15 ->  1.06
[ T008: x := M_N ]  0.14   0.15 ->  0.92
[ T009: x := M_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  0.99
[ T010: x := P_C ]  0.15   0.15 ->  0.98
[ T011: x := P_N ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T012: x := P_D ]  0.15   0.18 ->  0.85
[ T013: x := F_C ]  0.28   0.27 ->  1.06
[ T014: x := F_N ]  0.31   0.31 ->  1.01
[ T015: x := F_D ]  0.18   0.18 ->  1.00
[ T016: x := o:GenCode ]__  0.29   0.29 ->  1.01
[ T017: x := o[8] ]___  0.21   0.21 ->  1.00
[ T018: round( i / 1000, 2 ) ]  0.44   0.43 ->  1.02
[ T020: val( s ) ]  0.39   0.38 ->  1.00
[ T021: val( a [ i % 16 + 1 ] ) ]_  0.64   0.65 ->  0.97
[ T024: eval( bc := { || i % 16 } ) ]_  0.41   0.41 ->  0.99
[ T026: eval( bc := { |x| x % 16 }, i ) ]_  0.41   0.42 ->  0.98
[ T028: eval( bc := { |x| f1( x ) }, i ) ]  0.56   0.55 ->  1.02
[ T033: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] == s ]___  0.50   0.50 ->  0.99
[ T034: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] = s ]  0.51   0.52 ->  0.97
[ T035: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] >= s ]___  0.49   0.50 ->  0.99
[ T036: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] <= s ]___  0.52   0.52 ->  0.99
[ T037: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] < s ]  0.50   0.53 ->  0.94
[ T038: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] > s ]  0.50   0.50 ->  1.00
[ T039: ascan( a, i % 16 ) ]__  0.51   0.50 ->  1.01
[ T042: x := a ]__  0.15   0.15 ->  1.00
[ T044: f0() ]  0.24   0.23 ->  1.04
[ T045: f1( i ) ]_  0.31   0.30 ->  1.05
[ T046: f2( c[1...8] ) ]__  0.30   0.29 ->  1.05
[ T047: f2( c[1...4] ) ]__  0.29   0.30 ->  0.97
[ T048: f2( @c[1...4] ) ]_  0.28   0.30 ->  0.94
[ T049: f2( @c[1...4] ), c2 := c ]  0.36   0.37 ->  0.97
[ T050: f3( a, a2, s, i, s2, bc, i, n, x ) ]__  0.63   0.64 ->  0.99
[ T051: f2( a ) ]_  0.29   0.31 ->  0.94

[   TOTAL   ]_ 12.25  12.35 ->  0.99

[ total 

Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Tuesday 07 October 2008 06:28:18 am Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:

> with -gc3 switch, f.e.:
>    hbmk -n -w -es2 -gc3 -mt speedtst
>    for i in 1 2 4 6 8; do ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread:$i;
> done

Here it is with -gc3. The recompile will have to wait until after I get home 
from work.

with -gc3 switch, f.e.:
   hbmk -n -w -es2 -gc3 -mt speedtst
   for i in 1 2 4 6 8; do ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread:$i; done

[EMAIL PROTECTED] tests]$  ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread=1

10/07/08 08:03:51 Linux 2.6.26.3-29.fc9.i686 i686
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9564) (MT)+ GNU C 4.3 (32 bit)
THREADS: 1   
N_LOOPS: 100 
excluded tests: 029 030 023 025 027 040 041 043 052 053 019 022 031 032 054
1 th.  1 th.  factor

[ T001: x := L_C ]  0.11   0.08 ->  1.30
[ T002: x := L_N ]  0.08   0.07 ->  1.22
[ T003: x := L_D ]  0.07   0.07 ->  1.00
[ T004: x := S_C ]  0.10   0.10 ->  0.99
[ T005: x := S_N ]  0.10   0.10 ->  1.00
[ T006: x := S_D ]  0.10   0.10 ->  1.00
[ T007: x := M_C ]  0.11   0.13 ->  0.88
[ T008: x := M_N ]  0.11   0.11 ->  0.99
[ T009: x := M_D ]  0.11   0.12 ->  0.93
[ T010: x := P_C ]  0.13   0.13 ->  0.99
[ T011: x := P_N ]  0.11   0.10 ->  1.08
[ T012: x := P_D ]  0.13   0.10 ->  1.30
[ T013: x := F_C ]  0.27   0.21 ->  1.29
[ T014: x := F_N ]  0.27   0.27 ->  1.00
[ T015: x := F_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T016: x := o:GenCode ]__  0.24   0.24 ->  0.99
[ T017: x := o[8] ]___  0.16   0.16 ->  0.99
[ T018: round( i / 1000, 2 ) ]  0.33   0.33 ->  1.00
[ T020: val( s ) ]  0.33   0.33 ->  1.00
[ T021: val( a [ i % 16 + 1 ] ) ]_  0.51   0.51 ->  1.00
[ T024: eval( bc := { || i % 16 } ) ]_  0.39   0.39 ->  0.98
[ T026: eval( bc := { |x| x % 16 }, i ) ]_  0.43   0.38 ->  1.12
[ T028: eval( bc := { |x| f1( x ) }, i ) ]  0.53   0.48 ->  1.10
[ T033: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] == s ]___  0.37   0.36 ->  1.04
[ T034: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] = s ]  0.40   0.38 ->  1.04
[ T035: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] >= s ]___  0.40   0.40 ->  1.00
[ T036: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] <= s ]___  0.38   0.38 ->  1.00
[ T037: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] < s ]  0.38   0.38 ->  1.00
[ T038: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] > s ]  0.39   0.38 ->  1.01
[ T039: ascan( a, i % 16 ) ]__  0.43   0.47 ->  0.91
[ T042: x := a ]__  0.09   0.09 ->  1.00
[ T044: f0() ]  0.15   0.15 ->  1.00
[ T045: f1( i ) ]_  0.21   0.20 ->  1.08
[ T046: f2( c[1...8] ) ]__  0.20   0.20 ->  1.00
[ T047: f2( c[1...4] ) ]__  0.20   0.20 ->  1.00
[ T048: f2( @c[1...4] ) ]_  0.20   0.20 ->  1.00
[ T049: f2( @c[1...4] ), c2 := c ]  0.25   0.24 ->  1.06
[ T050: f3( a, a2, s, i, s2, bc, i, n, x ) ]__  0.45   0.45 ->  1.00
[ T051: f2( a ) ]_  0.22   0.20 ->  1.07

[   TOTAL   ]_  9.54   9.32 ->  1.02

[ total application time: ]18.86
[ total real time: ]...18.87
[EMAIL PROTECTED] tests]$  ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread=2

10/07/08 08:04:14 Linux 2.6.26.3-29.fc9.i686 i686
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9564) (MT)+ GNU C 4.3 (32 bit)
THREADS: 2   
N_LOOPS: 100 
excluded tests: 029 030 023 025 027 040 041 043 052 053 019 022 031 032 054
1 th.  2 th.  factor

[ T001: x := L_C ]  0.20   0.09 ->  2.14
[ T002: x := L_N ]  0.14   0

Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Tuesday 07 October 2008 06:28:18 am Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:
> rebuild Harbour with C_USR=-DHB_GUI

Didn't think it would get done, but here is the same test after the recompile. 
I'll do it once more without the -gc3 in a minute. Don't know if it will get 
done before I leave for work.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] tests]$for i in 1 2 4 6 8; 
do ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread=$i; done

10/07/08 08:16:56 Linux 2.6.26.3-29.fc9.i686 i686
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9564) (MT)+ GNU C 4.3 (32 bit)
THREADS: 1   
N_LOOPS: 100 
excluded tests: 029 030 023 025 027 040 041 043 052 053 019 022 031 032 054
1 th.  1 th.  factor

[ T001: x := L_C ]  0.10   0.08 ->  1.27
[ T002: x := L_N ]  0.07   0.07 ->  1.00
[ T003: x := L_D ]  0.07   0.07 ->  1.00
[ T004: x := S_C ]  0.10   0.10 ->  1.00
[ T005: x := S_N ]  0.09   0.09 ->  1.00
[ T006: x := S_D ]  0.09   0.09 ->  1.00
[ T007: x := M_C ]  0.11   0.11 ->  1.00
[ T008: x := M_N ]  0.10   0.10 ->  1.00
[ T009: x := M_D ]  0.10   0.10 ->  1.00
[ T010: x := P_C ]  0.11   0.11 ->  1.00
[ T011: x := P_N ]  0.10   0.10 ->  0.99
[ T012: x := P_D ]  0.10   0.10 ->  1.00
[ T013: x := F_C ]  0.26   0.22 ->  1.20
[ T014: x := F_N ]  0.27   0.27 ->  1.00
[ T015: x := F_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T016: x := o:GenCode ]__  0.24   0.24 ->  0.99
[ T017: x := o[8] ]___  0.16   0.16 ->  1.00
[ T018: round( i / 1000, 2 ) ]  0.32   0.32 ->  1.00
[ T020: val( s ) ]  0.33   0.33 ->  1.00
[ T021: val( a [ i % 16 + 1 ] ) ]_  0.51   0.51 ->  1.00
[ T024: eval( bc := { || i % 16 } ) ]_  0.39   0.40 ->  0.98
[ T026: eval( bc := { |x| x % 16 }, i ) ]_  0.39   0.39 ->  1.00
[ T028: eval( bc := { |x| f1( x ) }, i ) ]  0.45   0.45 ->  1.00
[ T033: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] == s ]___  0.36   0.36 ->  1.00
[ T034: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] = s ]  0.42   0.39 ->  1.08
[ T035: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] >= s ]___  0.40   0.40 ->  1.00
[ T036: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] <= s ]___  0.42   0.39 ->  1.07
[ T037: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] < s ]  0.39   0.39 ->  1.00
[ T038: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] > s ]  0.39   0.39 ->  1.00
[ T039: ascan( a, i % 16 ) ]__  0.47   0.44 ->  1.08
[ T042: x := a ]__  0.09   0.09 ->  1.00
[ T044: f0() ]  0.15   0.15 ->  1.00
[ T045: f1( i ) ]_  0.20   0.20 ->  1.00
[ T046: f2( c[1...8] ) ]__  0.20   0.20 ->  1.00
[ T047: f2( c[1...4] ) ]__  0.20   0.20 ->  1.00
[ T048: f2( @c[1...4] ) ]_  0.21   0.20 ->  1.07
[ T049: f2( @c[1...4] ), c2 := c ]  0.24   0.24 ->  1.00
[ T050: f3( a, a2, s, i, s2, bc, i, n, x ) ]__  0.45   0.51 ->  0.88
[ T051: f2( a ) ]_  0.21   0.20 ->  1.01

[   TOTAL   ]_  9.40   9.29 ->  1.01

[ total application time: ]18.58
[ total real time: ]...18.69

10/07/08 08:17:15 Linux 2.6.26.3-29.fc9.i686 i686
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9564) (MT)+ GNU C 4.3 (32 bit)
THREADS: 2   
N_LOOPS: 100 
excluded tests: 029 030 023 025 027 040 041 043 052 053 019 022 031 032 054
1 th.  2 th.  factor

[ T001: x := L_C ]  0.19   0.09 ->  2.05
[ T002: x := L_N ]  0.15   0.08 ->  1.89
[ T003: x := L_D ]  0.16   0.07 ->  2.14
[ T004: x := S_C ]  0.21   0.26 ->  0.78
[ T005: x := S_N ]__

Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Tuesday 07 October 2008 06:28:18 am Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:
> To disable it you will have to rebuild Harbour with C_USR=-DHB_GUI
> or at least compile this tests with -gc3 - it causes that except codeblocks
> for the rest of code C code is generated not PCODE evaluated by main HVM
> loop. I would like to ask you about yet another test. The same but using
> Harbour recompiled with export C_USR=-DHB_GUI or with speedtst.prg compiled
> with -gc3 switch, f.e.:
>    hbmk -n -w -es2 -gc3 -mt speedtst
>    for i in 1 2 4 6 8; do ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread:$i;
> done

Ok, the test with the compiler recompiled with export C_USR=-DHB_GUI and 
without the -gc3 test is running very slowly, so I'll assume you don't need 
the output. Anyway, I have to leave for work before it's getting finished.

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Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Tuesday 07 October 2008 10:38:55 am Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:
> I think that it was a mistake in build process. F.e. you created RPMs
> where C_USR is overload or you haven't used 'install' parameter so speedtst
> was linked with old HVM library.
> If -gc3 helps then recompiling Harbour with -DHB_GUI _must_ also help
> because in such build -gc0 works like -gc3 and it additionally eliminates
> the overhead from codeblocks body.

I saw the environment parameter included in all of the gcc compile strings, so 
I think that -DHB_GUI was compiled into the compiler. Then I ran mpkg_tgz.sh 
and installed it again over the old output. Then I recompiled speedtst.

So it must be either the install didn't overwrite or the recompile didn't work 
as expected.

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Re: [Harbour] HBDOC pending update

[Phil Barnett]

On Tuesday 07 October 2008 01:32:42 pm Alejandro de Garate wrote:
> Hi folks
> I stand up from bed to send a few (important) mails and to tell some
> hurried people they will have to wait.
>
> I am with fever and neumonitis, when I will stay better I will continue
> with the work.

Please, stay in bed and rest. It's the best thing you can do for yourself and 
everyone you know!

Here's wishing you a speedy recovery.

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Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Tuesday 07 October 2008 08:45:51 pm Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:
> > I saw the environment parameter included in all of the gcc compile
> > strings, so I think that -DHB_GUI was compiled into the compiler. Then I
> > ran mpkg_tgz.sh and installed it again over the old output. Then I
> > recompiled speedtst.
>
> And this could be the source of problem: mpkg_tgz.sh always rebuild
> Harbour from scratch so it overloaded your previous build.

Well, I see that I worded that badly. I saw that right after I sent it.

I did this:

export -DHB_GUI
mpkg_tgz.sh

(I observed that -DHB_GUI was in the compile strings)

Installled the resulting tarball

Recompiled the speedtst

ran it with poor results.

Is there a better way to recompile and install on linux?

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Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 05:10:19 am Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:

> OK. If possible please try current SVN 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] harbour]$ export C_USR=-DHB_GUI

[EMAIL PROTECTED] harbour]$ mpkg_tgz.sh

install resulting tarball as root

[EMAIL PROTECTED] harbour]$ cd tests
[EMAIL PROTECTED] tests]$ hbmk -n -w -es2 -mt speedtst
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9564)   
Copyright (c) 1999-2008, http://www.harbour-project.org/
Compiling 'speedtst.prg'... 
Lines 876, Functions/Procedures 72  
Generating C source output to 'speedtst.c'... Done. 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] tests]$ for i in 1 2 4 6 8; 
do ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread=$i; done

10/09/08 00:57:00 Linux 2.6.26.3-29.fc9.i686 i686
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9564) (MT)+ GNU C 4.3 (32 bit)
THREADS: 1   
N_LOOPS: 100 
excluded tests: 029 030 023 025 027 040 041 043 052 053 019 022 031 032 054
1 th.  1 th.  factor

[ T001: x := L_C ]  0.16   0.14 ->  1.15
[ T002: x := L_N ]  0.16   0.14 ->  1.14
[ T003: x := L_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T004: x := S_C ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.01
[ T005: x := S_N ]  0.14   0.15 ->  0.90
[ T006: x := S_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T007: x := M_C ]  0.15   0.15 ->  0.98
[ T008: x := M_N ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T009: x := M_D ]  0.16   0.15 ->  1.06
[ T010: x := P_C ]  0.15   0.15 ->  1.00
[ T011: x := P_N ]  0.19   0.15 ->  1.31
[ T012: x := P_D ]  0.14   0.18 ->  0.75
[ T013: x := F_C ]  0.27   0.28 ->  0.97
[ T014: x := F_N ]  0.31   0.31 ->  0.98
[ T015: x := F_D ]  0.19   0.18 ->  1.02
[ T016: x := o:GenCode ]__  0.29   0.29 ->  0.98
[ T017: x := o[8] ]___  0.21   0.22 ->  0.96
[ T018: round( i / 1000, 2 ) ]  0.44   0.43 ->  1.02
[ T020: val( s ) ]  0.38   0.38 ->  1.00
[ T021: val( a [ i % 16 + 1 ] ) ]_  0.62   0.62 ->  1.00
[ T024: eval( bc := { || i % 16 } ) ]_  0.42   0.42 ->  1.00
[ T026: eval( bc := { |x| x % 16 }, i ) ]_  0.42   0.42 ->  1.00
[ T028: eval( bc := { |x| f1( x ) }, i ) ]  0.53   0.54 ->  0.98
[ T033: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] == s ]___  0.50   0.50 ->  1.00
[ T034: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] = s ]  0.50   0.50 ->  1.00
[ T035: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] >= s ]___  0.52   0.52 ->  1.00
[ T036: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] <= s ]___  0.52   0.50 ->  1.03
[ T037: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] < s ]  0.53   0.53 ->  1.00
[ T038: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] > s ]  0.51   0.52 ->  0.98
[ T039: ascan( a, i % 16 ) ]__  0.54   0.53 ->  1.00
[ T042: x := a ]__  0.15   0.15 ->  1.00
[ T044: f0() ]  0.24   0.24 ->  1.00
[ T045: f1( i ) ]_  0.30   0.31 ->  0.97
[ T046: f2( c[1...8] ) ]__  0.31   0.29 ->  1.05
[ T047: f2( c[1...4] ) ]__  0.29   0.30 ->  0.97
[ T048: f2( @c[1...4] ) ]_  0.29   0.29 ->  1.00
[ T049: f2( @c[1...4] ), c2 := c ]  0.35   0.34 ->  1.02
[ T050: f3( a, a2, s, i, s2, bc, i, n, x ) ]__  0.63   0.63 ->  1.01
[ T051: f2( a ) ]_  0.30   0.31 ->  0.95

[   TOTAL   ]_ 12.33  12.32 ->  1.00

[ total application time: ]24.55
[ total real time: ]...24.65

10/09/08 00:57:25 Linux 2.6.26.3-29.fc9.i686 i686
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9564) (MT)+ GNU C 4.3 (32 bit)
THREADS: 2   
N_LOOPS: 100 
excluded tests: 029 030 023 025 027 040 041 043 052 053 019 022 031 032 054
1 th.  2 th.  factor

[ T001: x := L

Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 10:43:12 am Teo Fonrouge wrote:
> I see that you are use a rpm based distro (Fedora 9) so you can build the
> binaries and install it as rpm's. To create the Harbour rpm's, you just
> need to send the following command in an console:
>
> $ ./mpkg_rpm.sh

[EMAIL PROTECTED] harbour]$ ./mpkg_rpm.sh
svn: warning: '.' is not a working copy
error: Name field must be present in package: (main package)
error: Version field must be present in package: (main package)
error: Release field must be present in package: (main package)
error: Summary field must be present in package: (main package)
error: Group field must be present in package: (main package)
error: License field must be present in package: (main package)


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Re: [SPAM] [Harbour] Speedtst.exe results for 2 computers

[Phil Barnett]

On Thursday 09 October 2008 06:13:54 am Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:
> Maybe you build and install Harbour correctly but just simply you have
> some other copy Harbour binaries which is used and it's the reason why
> adding HB_GUI was not working for you. I really do not know.

I figured it out. I su'd to root, but didn't cd / before I installed. So it 
installed into /root instead of /. Duh.


> Sorry that I'm asking about it again but please make SVN update to
> current and check if harbour binaries and executable have SVN revision
> number grater then 9567. I would like to confirm that the MT slowness
> in gc[0-2] builds is resolved.

I can confirm that the fix worked.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] tests]$ for i in 1 2 4 6 8; 
do ./speedtst --exclude=mem --scale --thread=$i; done

10/10/08 22:05:55 Linux 2.6.26.5-45.fc9.i686 i686
Harbour 1.1.0dev (Rev. 9594) (MT)+ GNU C 4.3 (32 bit)
THREADS: 1   
N_LOOPS: 100 
excluded tests: 029 030 023 025 027 040 041 043 052 053 019 022 031 032 054
1 th.  1 th.  factor

[ T001: x := L_C ]  0.16   0.13 ->  1.16
[ T002: x := L_N ]  0.13   0.13 ->  1.00
[ T003: x := L_D ]  0.13   0.13 ->  1.00
[ T004: x := S_C ]  0.13   0.13 ->  1.00
[ T005: x := S_N ]  0.13   0.13 ->  1.00
[ T006: x := S_D ]  0.13   0.13 ->  1.00
[ T007: x := M_C ]  0.17   0.14 ->  1.19
[ T008: x := M_N ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T009: x := M_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T010: x := P_C ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T011: x := P_N ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T012: x := P_D ]  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00
[ T013: x := F_C ]  0.29   0.29 ->  0.99
[ T014: x := F_N ]  0.30   0.30 ->  1.00
[ T015: x := F_D ]  0.18   0.18 ->  1.00
[ T016: x := o:GenCode ]__  0.29   0.29 ->  1.00
[ T017: x := o[8] ]___  0.20   0.20 ->  0.99
[ T018: round( i / 1000, 2 ) ]  0.44   0.43 ->  1.00
[ T020: val( s ) ]  0.40   0.40 ->  1.01
[ T021: val( a [ i % 16 + 1 ] ) ]_  0.66   0.65 ->  1.00
[ T024: eval( bc := { || i % 16 } ) ]_  0.40   0.40 ->  1.00
[ T026: eval( bc := { |x| x % 16 }, i ) ]_  0.39   0.39 ->  1.00
[ T028: eval( bc := { |x| f1( x ) }, i ) ]  0.52   0.52 ->  1.00
[ T033: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] == s ]___  0.47   0.47 ->  1.00
[ T034: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] = s ]  0.49   0.49 ->  1.00
[ T035: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] >= s ]___  0.49   0.49 ->  1.00
[ T036: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] <= s ]___  0.49   0.49 ->  1.00
[ T037: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] < s ]  0.49   0.49 ->  1.00
[ T038: x := a[ i % 16 + 1 ] > s ]  0.48   0.48 ->  1.00
[ T039: ascan( a, i % 16 ) ]__  0.56   0.56 ->  1.00

   
[ T042: x := a ]__  0.14   0.14 ->  1.00

   
[ T044: f0() ]  0.22   0.22 ->  1.00

   
[ T045: f1( i ) ]_  0.27   0.27 ->  1.00

   
[ T046: f2( c[1...8] ) ]__  0.28   0.28 ->  1.00

   
[ T047: f2( c[1...4] ) ]__  0.28   0.28 ->  1.00

   
[ T048: f2( @c[1...4] ) ]_  0.28   0.28 ->  1.00

   
[ T049: f2( @c[1...4] ), c2 := c ]  0.35   0.35 ->  1.00

   
[ T050: f3( a, a2, s, i, s2, bc, i, n, x ) ]__ 

Re: [Harbour] Error code type

[Phil Barnett]

On Sunday 12 October 2008 06:48:57 am Przemyslaw Czerpak wrote:

> Windows uses DOS error codes counted from 0 and significant
> are only 2 low bytes. AFAIR upper bytes are usd in some subsystems
> as bitfields.

Yes on significant 2 low bytes.

Not true on starting at 0. You can return negative error codes from DOS 
programs to Windows. We do it every day at work. Vendor supplied code returns 
errors -1, -2 and -3 for different errors.

If you think about 
void main()
where you can't return an error code compared to 
int main()
where you can return an error code you would know that -100 is a valid error 
code.

I can't recall a top level module starting with

uint main()

And I've never seen an error greater than 128

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Re: [Harbour] Respuesta automática

[Phil Barnett]

On Wednesday 22 October 2008 11:42:43 am [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hotmail stinks.

Banished. No longer a member of this list as of now.

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour Web site - Preview #2

[Phil Barnett]

On Thursday 23 October 2008 01:17:33 pm Vailton Renato wrote:

> http://harbour-project.org/preview2/index.html

This really looks very nice. Thank you for all the hard work.

The old site is so much out of date, I believe we can switch over to this 
format any time you like and we will fill in the missing pieces over time.

Any other opinions?

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Re: [Harbour] RE: Harbour Digest, Vol 24, Issue 104

[Phil Barnett]

On Friday 24 October 2008 03:03:09 am Horodyski Marek (PZUZ) wrote:
> And what you tell about Phil's PBMake ?
> http://www.the-oasis.net/

It probably needs to be revisited and brought up to date.

It's open source. The source is there on The Oasis. I just don't have time to 
take on more stuff. (I'm already in up to my eyebrows...)

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Re: R: [Harbour] RE: Harbour Digest, Vol 24, Issue 104

[Phil Barnett]

On Friday 24 October 2008 04:12:50 am Massimo Belgrano wrote:

> Good but not open source

All you have to do is ask.

I have no problem releasing it under GPL.

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[Harbour] A friendly reminder

[Phil Barnett]

Microsoft announced that they found and patched a VERY nasty rpc bug which 
allows attackers full control. If you have not done it already, please take 
the time to patch your Windows boxes up to the latest level.

Linux users may take the day off and go fishing.

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Re: R: [Harbour] RE: Harbour Digest, Vol 24, Issue 104

[Phil Barnett]

On Friday 24 October 2008 07:39:37 pm Phil Barnett wrote:
> On Friday 24 October 2008 04:12:50 am Massimo Belgrano wrote:
> > Good but not open source
>
> All you have to do is ask.
>
> I have no problem releasing it under GPL.

I just checked and Click! does have the GPL 2 license included, so it's 
already GPL released.

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Re: [Harbour] Harbour Web site - Preview #2 (Update)

[Phil Barnett]

On Monday 27 October 2008 08:26:12 am Vailton Renato wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> I am of opinions on the page DOCUMENTATION > SAMPLES of the new site.
> I need to know if I'm on the right track and if all agree that the
> layout'm riding, because it is very difficult and full of details - if
> you have to redo then will take a lot of work. :(
>
> My intention would be easy to assemble a page to show some features of
> Harbor and give prominence to its features, especially where visitors
> could view the code and how would the screen.
>
> We have also upgraded the sentence at the top of the site and the
> links to download versions of the homepage.
>
> I await comments, criticisms and suggestions, the URL is:
> http://harbour-project.org/preview2/samples.html
>
> Thank you
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> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour

The only suggestion I have is that the word Freeware in the header should 
probably just read Free.

Freeware is not necessarily Open Source. We've gone out of our way to make 
this entire thing much more than Freeware.

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