Re: [FRIAM] New Mexican's Sunday's story on education proficiency

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Assuming this question reflects the type of mathematics questions posed to
fourth graders, it raises a pertinent query: what is the pedagogical value
of such mathematical questions for 9- or 10-year-old students?

Living in a world where it is a rarity for a cashier to perform basic
mental arithmetic to make change from a $20 bill, we must consider if
foundational arithmetic skills should precede advanced mathematical
concepts such as prime numbers and factorials.

This prompts a broader question: in today's rapidly evolving world, what
should children be learning? As an individual who still views learning as a
lifelong endeavor, I believe educational content must adapt to different
age groups. Thus, let’s focus on the appropriate curriculum for 9- or
10-year-olds.

To provide some context, there is ongoing speculation in the AI community
about the imminent release of OpenAI's "Raspberry" model. While details are
scarce, experts suggest it could potentially perform at the level of
PhD-level scientific research. Whether or not these rumors are grounded,
the undeniable truth is that AI is revolutionizing the workplace, reshaping
the essential knowledge and skills required for future generations.

In my view, compulsory education should concentrate on the foundational
'Three Rs' – reading, writing, and arithmetic – augmented by personal and
interpersonal relational skills. This encompasses not only effective
communication but also fostering self-awareness, empathy, and a meaningful
relationship with the world around us.

Mathematics, distinct from basic arithmetic, should be an elective subject
pursued by those with a genuine interest. For instance, one of my
grandchildren, residing on another continent, engages in voluntary weekly
sessions with me. Our lessons have progressed from basic Python programming
to exploring complex algorithms, such as the Traveling Salesman Problem
(TSP) and discussions on the P vs NP problem. This learning journey is
driven entirely by curiosity and interest.

While it is crucial to equip students with fundamental arithmetic skills,
we must also provide avenues for those intrigued by mathematics to explore
its depths voluntarily. Balancing foundational skills with opportunities
for advanced learning will better prepare our children for a future where
the relevance of traditional knowledge continually evolves.

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 at 05:28, Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> I'm not sure my 30+ year old daughter knows the times tables.  She works
> for the Secretary of Public Education. If you ask her about it she will say
> she uses calculators and spreadsheets.  I think.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 9:12 PM Russell Standish 
> wrote:
>
>> It is a test that you know your 7 or 8 times table. And the definition
>> of a prime number (which could be given as part of the question, if
>> not the curriculum).
>>
>> I would expect most 9 or 10 years olds should know their times tables.
>>
>> Or am I wrong abut kids these days?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 12:43:54PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote:
>> > Ms. O'Hara:
>> >
>> > RE your story Sunday, "Does proficiency give full picture?"
>> > From your lede:
>> > "Pop quiz: What number is both a prime number and a factor or 56"?
>> >
>> > If I understand correctly, this is a question on an exam given to fourth
>> > graders, 9- or 10-year-olds.
>> > Could you please point me to some source in the city or state education
>> > departments who can tell me what short- or long-term value this
>> question about
>> > mathematics -- NOT arithmetic -- has for students that age?
>> >
>> > We live in a state where it is a rare cashier who can do the mental
>> > arithmetic to make change from a $20 bill. Can we first find out if
>> fourth
>> > graders can do that before getting into primes and factorials?
>> > *--
>> > 
>> > Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
>> > Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>> > 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>> > Visit Global Santa Fe
>> > 
>>
>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> > archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>> >   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> 
>> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>>   http://www.hpcoders.com.

Re: [FRIAM] New Mexican's Sunday's story on education proficiency

[Edward Angel]

The following is hard to believe but true.

Last weekend, I was in line at Walgreens. The older woman in front of me gave 
the cashier a $20 bill for a $13.54 purchase. The young cashier was completely 
unable to figure out the correct change. After a couple of failed tries, the 
older woman tried to teach the cashier how to subtract $13.54 from $20 but that 
was a failure. She then tried to get the casher to add to $13.54 until the 
cashier reach $20. When that failed, she helped the cashier add small change 
and dollars until she got to $6.46.

I don’t think giving everyone a calculator is the solution.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

> On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:28 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure my 30+ year old daughter knows the times tables.  She works for 
> the Secretary of Public Education. If you ask her about it she will say she 
> uses calculators and spreadsheets.  I think.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 9:12 PM Russell Standish  > wrote:
>> It is a test that you know your 7 or 8 times table. And the definition
>> of a prime number (which could be given as part of the question, if
>> not the curriculum).
>> 
>> I would expect most 9 or 10 years olds should know their times tables.
>> 
>> Or am I wrong abut kids these days?
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 12:43:54PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote:
>> > Ms. O'Hara:
>> > 
>> > RE your story Sunday, "Does proficiency give full picture?"
>> > From your lede:
>> > "Pop quiz: What number is both a prime number and a factor or 56"?
>> > 
>> > If I understand correctly, this is a question on an exam given to fourth
>> > graders, 9- or 10-year-olds.
>> > Could you please point me to some source in the city or state education
>> > departments who can tell me what short- or long-term value this question 
>> > about
>> > mathematics -- NOT arithmetic -- has for students that age?
>> > 
>> > We live in a state where it is a rare cashier who can do the mental
>> > arithmetic to make change from a $20 bill. Can we first find out if fourth
>> > graders can do that before getting into primes and factorials?
>> > *--
>> > 
>> > Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com 
>> > Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>> > 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>> > Visit Global Santa Fe
>> > 
>> 
>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
>> > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> > archives:  5/2017 thru present 
>> > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>> >   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au 
>> 
>>   http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present 
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

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Re: [FRIAM] When are telic attributions appropriate in physical descriptions?

[glen]

No. I interact with the bullshit generators enough at work. I don't feel the 
need to do so in my personal life, as well. But I appreciate the invitation.

On 8/7/24 19:25, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

H! I wonder how Glenn would react to our requesting him to play this game. 
I hate it because it depends so powerfully on the meanings of the words in the 
question but I love it because it gives me a number. And of course because of 
the company it puts me in. Who couldn’t enjoy a game that puts me in the same 
space as Ludvig Wittgenstein

Glen, will you play? Just for kicks!



{
   "currentVector": {
     "deterministic": 0.5,
     "reductionism": 0.5,
     "empiricism": 1,
     "materialism": 1,
     "teleology": 0.01
   },
   "closestPhilosophers": [
     {
       "name": "Daniel Dennett",
       "cosineDistance": "0.04"
     },
     {
       "name": "Werner Heisenberg",
       "cosineDistance": "0.05"
     },
     {
       "name": "David Hume",
       "cosineDistance": "0.05"
     },
     {
       "name": "Niels Bohr",
       "cosineDistance": "0.05"
     },
     {
       "name": "Ludwig Wittgenstein",
       "cosineDistance": "0.05"
     }
   ]
}
Sent from my Dumb Phone

On Aug 7, 2024, at 2:12 PM, Stephen Guerin  wrote:


Nick,

How do we think about "Telos"? I can't help myself - "Dan wheel out our one-trick 
TensorPony" :-)

Nick, this time you need to give us your tensor wrt to the philosophers and 
scientists that have discussed telos according to Dan so I can get a sense of 
where you are coming from.  Copy and paste your result here. And then you can 
suggest other dimensions or questions to ask to modify the space.

https://guerin.acequia.io/telosTensor.html 







Dan picked these folks to establish the spanning set of the space.


Philosophers and Scientists on Telos

*Aristotle:* Introduced the concept of telos, arguing that everything in nature 
has a purpose or goal it strives to achieve, which is fundamental to 
understanding natural processes.

*David Bohm:* Proposed the theory of the implicate order, suggesting a deeper, 
orderly reality underlying apparent randomness, resonating with teleological 
thinking.

*Ludwig Boltzmann:* Focused on statistical mechanics and the behavior of gases, 
emphasizing probabilistic interactions without invoking purpose.

*Jean-Paul Sartre:* Proposed the existentialist view that life has no inherent 
meaning, and that individuals must create their own purpose, avoiding 
teleological explanations.

*Michel Foucault:* Analyzed power, knowledge, and discourse, focusing on 
societal structures without invoking teleological explanations, instead 
emphasizing historical and social processes.

*Richard Feynman:* Known for a pragmatic and non-teleological approach to 
physics, emphasizing mathematical descriptions of physical phenomena without 
resorting to purpose or goal-directed explanations.

*Immanuel Kant:* Distinguished between appearances and the noumenal world, 
arguing that teleological judgments are heuristic and do not reflect the actual 
nature of reality.

*Max Planck:* Believed in a fundamental consciousness underlying reality, 
stating that all matter originates and exists by virtue of a force governed by 
a conscious and intelligent mind, suggesting a teleological dimension.

*Erwin Schrödinger:* Explored the fundamental order and purpose in living 
systems in his work, suggesting that physical laws govern biological processes 
with an underlying direction.

*Daniel Dennett:* Rejected teleological explanations in favor of evolutionary 
and mechanistic accounts of consciousness and cognition.

*Friedrich Nietzsche:* Rejected teleological explanations, emphasizing that 
life and the universe do not have inherent purposes or goals, and critiqued 
teleological views as human projections.

*Roger Penrose:* Proposed ideas about the cyclical nature of the universe and 
the role of consciousness in quantum processes, hinting at a purposeful 
direction in both physical and mental realms.

*Thomas Aquinas:* Integrated Aristotle's ideas into Christian theology, 
emphasizing that everything in nature has a purpose designed by God.

*Albert Einstein:* Believed in an underlying order and simplicity in the 
universe, often speaking of the universe as comprehensible and governed by 
rational principles, which can imply a teleological perspective.

*Ilya Prigogine:* His work on dissipative structures suggests that systems 
self-organize into ordered states, implying a form of goal-directed evolution 
toward complexity.

*John Archibald Wheeler:* Suggested that observers play a role in bringing the 
universe into existence, hinting at a teleological aspect where the universe's 
structure is influenced by the presence of observers.

*Karl Marx:* Rejected teleological views of history, emphasizing material 
conditions and class struggles as the drivers of historical change.

*Stephen Guerin:* Explored the idea of

Re: [FRIAM] New Mexican's Sunday's story on education proficiency

[glen]

Humans are fast learners. We learn what our environments demand we learn, 
within some variation, of course. In my part time job slinging beer, we don't 
expect employees to be able to subtract numbers like 13.54 from 20. The Point 
of Sale (PoS, funnily also an initialism for another common phrase) does the 
math for you. However, at my particular gig, we don't deal in dimes, nickels, 
or pennies. So the PoS does some math, I look at the number, then I have to 
round up or down, in favor or detriment to the customer or the house, such that 
we only trade with quarters and up. The objective of the game is to reach the 
end of the evening with the electronic till count within $0.25 of the actual 
till contents.

To my mind, this iterated arithmetic game is WAY more fun than the simple game 
of adding or subtracting numbers, at which I'm an abject failure. But I'm 
pretty good at the long game of knowing how many times to short the customer 
versus shorting the house such that the PoS' final count is within a quarter of 
the actual count.

You're always gonna fail to teach people skills they don't need to learn. If 
you want them to learn something, engineer the environment, not the person.

On 8/8/24 06:10, Edward Angel wrote:

The following is hard to believe but true.

Last weekend, I was in line at Walgreens. The older woman in front of me gave 
the cashier a $20 bill for a $13.54 purchase. The young cashier was completely 
unable to figure out the correct change. After a couple of failed tries, the 
older woman tried to teach the cashier how to subtract $13.54 from $20 but that 
was a failure. She then tried to get the casher to add to $13.54 until the 
cashier reach $20. When that failed, she helped the cashier add small change 
and dollars until she got to $6.46.

I don’t think giving everyone a calculator is the solution.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)an...@cs.unm.edu 
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:28 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:

I'm not sure my 30+ year old daughter knows the times tables.  She works for 
the Secretary of Public Education. If you ask her about it she will say she 
uses calculators and spreadsheets.  I think.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 9:12 PM Russell Standish mailto:li...@hpcoders.com.au>> wrote:

It is a test that you know your 7 or 8 times table. And the definition
of a prime number (which could be given as part of the question, if
not the curriculum).

I would expect most 9 or 10 years olds should know their times tables.

Or am I wrong abut kids these days?

On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 12:43:54PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote:
> Ms. O'Hara:
>
> RE your story Sunday, "Does proficiency give full picture?"
> From your lede:
> "Pop quiz: What number is both a prime number and a factor or 56"?
>
> If I understand correctly, this is a question on an exam given to fourth
> graders, 9- or 10-year-olds.
> Could you please point me to some source in the city or state education
> departments who can tell me what short- or long-term value this question 
about
> mathematics -- NOT arithmetic -- has for students that age?
>
> We live in a state where it is a rare cashier who can do the mental
> arithmetic to make change from a $20 bill. Can we first find out if fourth
> graders can do that before getting into primes and factorials?
> *--



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] New Mexican's Sunday's story on education proficiency

[Frank Wimberly]

By the way, my daughter's title in the Secretary of Public Education Office
is Financial Technician.  I can multiply two 2 digit numbers mentally
pretty fast.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024, 7:11 AM Edward Angel  wrote:

> The following is hard to believe but true.
>
> Last weekend, I was in line at Walgreens. The older woman in front of me
> gave the cashier a $20 bill for a $13.54 purchase. The young cashier was
> completely unable to figure out the correct change. After a couple of
> failed tries, the older woman tried to teach the cashier how to subtract
> $13.54 from $20 but that was a failure. She then tried to get the casher to
> add to $13.54 until the cashier reach $20. When that failed, she helped the
> cashier add small change and dollars until she got to $6.46.
>
> I don’t think giving everyone a calculator is the solution.
>
> Ed
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
> 
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:28 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
> I'm not sure my 30+ year old daughter knows the times tables.  She works
> for the Secretary of Public Education. If you ask her about it she will say
> she uses calculators and spreadsheets.  I think.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 9:12 PM Russell Standish 
> wrote:
>
>> It is a test that you know your 7 or 8 times table. And the definition
>> of a prime number (which could be given as part of the question, if
>> not the curriculum).
>>
>> I would expect most 9 or 10 years olds should know their times tables.
>>
>> Or am I wrong abut kids these days?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 12:43:54PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote:
>> > Ms. O'Hara:
>> >
>> > RE your story Sunday, "Does proficiency give full picture?"
>> > From your lede:
>> > "Pop quiz: What number is both a prime number and a factor or 56"?
>> >
>> > If I understand correctly, this is a question on an exam given to fourth
>> > graders, 9- or 10-year-olds.
>> > Could you please point me to some source in the city or state education
>> > departments who can tell me what short- or long-term value this
>> question about
>> > mathematics -- NOT arithmetic -- has for students that age?
>> >
>> > We live in a state where it is a rare cashier who can do the mental
>> > arithmetic to make change from a $20 bill. Can we first find out if
>> fourth
>> > graders can do that before getting into primes and factorials?
>> > *--
>> > 
>> > Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
>> > Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>> > 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>> > Visit Global Santa Fe
>> > 
>>
>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> > archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>> >   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> 
>> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>>   http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>>
>> 
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
> -. --- - 

[FRIAM] Rambling Tangent on Identity and SocioPolitics - was: differential diagnosis of psychopathic vs spiritual experiences

[steve smith]

On 8/6/24 12:09 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
Re self-identification.  We adopted our daughter in Mexico and moved 
from Pittsburgh to Santa Fe about a year later. When she came home 
after her first day of kindergarten at E. J. Martinez I asked her if 
there were other Hispanic kids in her class.  She said, "I dunno".


Based on the kids who became her friends I'd say they were oblivious 
to ethnicity.
My mother had a similar/complementary experience, living in 1930s in 
Louisville KY with a middle-class socially progressive Aunt to escape 
the limits and rigors of her own family's subsistence farming lifestyle 
in "the hills".   One year (3rd grade?) she made friends with a girl who 
lived between her school and her aunt's home,  after weeks of 
encouraging her friend to come home with her against unspecified 
resistance, she finally did, only to discover that her friend was Black 
(African American) and that despite her aunt's progressive ideas, it was 
clear that this good friend of hers was not welcome in the home.   
Politely received but then sternly admonished after the friend had left 
"never to do that again".


I feel blessed to have lived almost all my life in multi-ethnic general 
contexts with Spanish-speakers never far away and Native Americans 
nearly as present...  and across those ethnic elements a great deal of 
diversity as I moved around.  My time in this region (NNM - 40 years) 
has been the most diverse demographically but very complementary to the 
Border Culture in SoAZ and the BigRez culture of NoAZ.


I have a blind spot to African Americans, having only encountered 
singular individuals, and never "populations"...   These were all 
exemplary or at least unique individuals in that what brought them into 
my circle was highly specific to their own path, seeming always to make 
them acutely interesting people.  My experience with most other large 
ethnic groups who have not fully alloyed in the melting pot that the USA 
aspires to is similar... I mostly know individuals whose origin stories 
come from those communities but who were in fact, swimming in the same 
melting pot I was. Working at LANL/LASL was a very good way to meet a 
lot of unique individuals not only from all over the country but the 
world as well...  Asians of many stripes as well a Eastern Europeans 
(equally diversely striped) being the most notable...


One of my best friends in college was a neighbor in Married Housing who 
was Dine while his wife was Hopi during a time when they couldn't really 
spend time "back on the Rez" because of the resentments/conflict of the 
time between their people.   He was working on a Hydrogeological project 
for his MS on the topic of the groundwater problems caused by the 
massive sluice-way moving coal from the Peabody Coal mines near Kayenta, 
to the 4 corners power plant.  This was during the worst of the urban 
(visible) pollution in locations like LA, and I became aware of how that 
power plant and the electricity forwarded down the Colorado River 
through Glen Canyon and Mead and across the desert to LA was exporting 
(air) pollution to the 4 corners area and perhaps more long-term the 
aquifer in that area.   Simultaneously I was doing work for lawyers on 
"the other side" ultimately helping Peabody Mining (Coal and Uranium), 
local truck dealers, and many others who were busy exploiting that whole 
set of games.   Donaldson (June) and I had a lot of great conversations 
as perhaps only the young and the naively motivated can.   He never 
lobbied me on anything, just told his stories of growing up off-grid in 
a Hogan and watching his relatives both thrive and self-destruct as they 
tried to assimilate (or resist) with the White Man.


   /If there is a short story in this long-winded  anecdote it is that
   I have had the benefit of relatively intimate access to other's
   self-identity formed both by their circumstance and by their
   introspective and forward looking interests:  not only "who am I,
   based on where I come from, but who do I want to be as the
   ethnodemographic landscape shifts under my feet, and how does my
   traversal of said landscape shape it?"   These intimate observations
   were mostly seeing their "true identity" with an inside out view on
   the identities they were obliged to project to be comfortable in
   their own communities and in the larger communities they were trying
   to penetrate or at least navigate./

A great deal of contemporary demographic socio-politics feel to be 
beyond me, it feels like various bastions of "conservatism" on the part 
of all factions, being more afraid of "what might happen tomorrow" based 
on "what we've seen in the past" than aware of "what could be" based on 
"the trajectory in a high-dimensional phase space we have been 
traversing".   I was rooted in no end of Conservative and Libertarian 
values (mostly hyper-individualism within otherwise highly 
integrated/inter-dependent communities) but as I came

Re: [FRIAM] When are telic attributions appropriate in physical descriptions?

[Stephen Guerin]

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024, 7:44 AM glen  wrote:

> No. I interact with the bullshit generators enough at work. I don't feel
> the need to do so in my personal life, as well. But I appreciate the
> invitation.
>


Glen, yes "bullshit generators" can be slightly annoying at times ;-p

Friam is a space to interact with them as I think they hold our collective
wisdom and sometimes generate profound insights that I never would have
considered on my own. 



> On 8/7/24 19:25, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > H! I wonder how Glenn would react to our requesting him to play this
> game. I hate it because it depends so powerfully on the meanings of the
> words in the question but I love it because it gives me a number. And of
> course because of the company it puts me in. Who couldn’t enjoy a game that
> puts me in the same space as Ludvig Wittgenstein
> >
> > Glen, will you play? Just for kicks!
> >
> >
> >
> > {
> >"currentVector": {
> >  "deterministic": 0.5,
> >  "reductionism": 0.5,
> >  "empiricism": 1,
> >  "materialism": 1,
> >  "teleology": 0.01
> >},
> >"closestPhilosophers": [
> >  {
> >"name": "Daniel Dennett",
> >"cosineDistance": "0.04"
> >  },
> >  {
> >"name": "Werner Heisenberg",
> >"cosineDistance": "0.05"
> >  },
> >  {
> >"name": "David Hume",
> >"cosineDistance": "0.05"
> >  },
> >  {
> >"name": "Niels Bohr",
> >"cosineDistance": "0.05"
> >  },
> >  {
> >"name": "Ludwig Wittgenstein",
> >"cosineDistance": "0.05"
> >  }
> >]
> > }
> > Sent from my Dumb Phone
> >
> > On Aug 7, 2024, at 2:12 PM, Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Nick,
> >
> > How do we think about "Telos"? I can't help myself - "Dan wheel out our
> one-trick TensorPony" :-)
> >
> > Nick, this time you need to give us your tensor wrt to the philosophers
> and scientists that have discussed telos according to Dan so I can get a
> sense of where you are coming from.  Copy and paste your result here. And
> then you can suggest other dimensions or questions to ask to modify the
> space.
> >
> > https://guerin.acequia.io/telosTensor.html <
> https://guerin.acequia.io/telosTensor.html>
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan picked these folks to establish the spanning set of the space.
> >
> >
> > Philosophers and Scientists on Telos
> >
> > *Aristotle:* Introduced the concept of telos, arguing that everything in
> nature has a purpose or goal it strives to achieve, which is fundamental to
> understanding natural processes.
> >
> > *David Bohm:* Proposed the theory of the implicate order, suggesting a
> deeper, orderly reality underlying apparent randomness, resonating with
> teleological thinking.
> >
> > *Ludwig Boltzmann:* Focused on statistical mechanics and the behavior of
> gases, emphasizing probabilistic interactions without invoking purpose.
> >
> > *Jean-Paul Sartre:* Proposed the existentialist view that life has no
> inherent meaning, and that individuals must create their own purpose,
> avoiding teleological explanations.
> >
> > *Michel Foucault:* Analyzed power, knowledge, and discourse, focusing on
> societal structures without invoking teleological explanations, instead
> emphasizing historical and social processes.
> >
> > *Richard Feynman:* Known for a pragmatic and non-teleological approach
> to physics, emphasizing mathematical descriptions of physical phenomena
> without resorting to purpose or goal-directed explanations.
> >
> > *Immanuel Kant:* Distinguished between appearances and the noumenal
> world, arguing that teleological judgments are heuristic and do not reflect
> the actual nature of reality.
> >
> > *Max Planck:* Believed in a fundamental consciousness underlying
> reality, stating that all matter originates and exists by virtue of a force
> governed by a conscious and intelligent mind, suggesting a teleological
> dimension.
> >
> > *Erwin Schrödinger:* Explored the fundamental order and purpose in
> living systems in his work, suggesting that physical laws govern biological
> processes with an underlying direction.
> >
> > *Daniel Dennett:* Rejected teleological explanations in favor of
> evolutionary and mechanistic accounts of consciousness and cognition.
> >
> > *Friedrich Nietzsche:* Rejected teleological explanations, emphasizing
> that life and the universe do not have inherent purposes or goals, and
> critiqued teleological views as human projections.
> >
> > *Roger Penrose:* Proposed ideas about the cyclical nature of the
> universe and the role of consciousness in quantum processes, hinting at a
> purposeful direction in both physical and mental realms.
> >
> > *Thomas Aquinas:* Integrated Aristotle's ideas into Christian theology,
> emphasizing that everything in nature has a purpose designed by God.
> >
> > *Albert Einstein:* Believed in an underlying order and simplicity in the
> universe, often speaking of the universe as comprehensible an

Re: [FRIAM] When are telic attributions appropriate in physical descriptions?

[Stephen Guerin]

Glen, are you avail to join vFriam today near the end at 1130a MDT / 1030
your time?

https://bit.ly/virtualfriam

Interactive voice channel preferred.

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024, 10:09 AM glen  wrote:

> Maybe. I'm not convinced. Profundity is THE breeding ground for bullshit.
> And "wisdom" is not far off. Mansplaining, in general beyond that of
> automated mansplainers like GPT, is rife with pseudo-wisdom.
>
> On 8/8/24 08:42, Stephen Guerin wrote:
> > Friam is a space to interact with them as I think they hold our
> collective wisdom and sometimes generate profound insights that I never
> would have considered on my own. 
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] differential diagnosis of psychopathic vs spiritual experiences

[steve smith]

On 8/7/24 9:43 AM, glen wrote:

Why? Why would you burn that energy to perform such a task?


because as with all technology for all of time,

   "because we can"

   

   I agree/realize that in our rush to embrace "the next cool thing" it
   is easy to get carried away... like with the (relative) excesses of
   Car Races and Barnstorming at the dawn of personal transportation.

   I feel my own self-dissatisfaction with the seduction I feel for
   chatting with GPT as a "bar friend" as much as I do... a *real* bar
   friend would only consume order 100W at most to bend his/her brain
   around my nonsensical suppositions and investigations... I doubt GPT
   is so efficient.  Also, if the brew we are quaffing is of local
   production, a lot of the energy we are processing from gut-biome to
   glucose/blood-alcohol into our brains (and stool-sat butt-flexors)
   came directly from the sunlight falling near by on fields of grain
   and hops.

Specifically to Stephen's particular application du jour, I share a 
certain fascination with the way GPT/LLMs can so adeptly expand the 
dimensionality of my maunderings for/with me.  I don't always believe it 
does it in what I would call responsible or even useful-to-me space, but 
it does allow/suggest some opening up of my parallaxical aperture (as 
does most any conversation with you, Glen... ) but you are more the 100W 
version with a specific unique perspective vs the order(s)of magnitude 
higher energy abuse version of GPT.


Compared to the Million or so miles I drove in cars, trucks, 
motorcycles, airplanes in my life "just because I could" in my life, I 
think my LLM indulgences are still somewhat small, but do threaten to 
overtake quietly... just as standing by a gas-pump to fill a 20gallon 
tank with $20 gallons of petrol (and a $1 quart of motor oil and some 
free air in my leaky tires) to then drive across the state, as a young 
adult felt like effing magic, so does casually asking GPT every inane 
question I can think of for $20/month (or free if I prefer)...    I 
should definitely wire in my GPT usage to a rowing machine and only 
allow myself to ask as many questions (or carry on as many discussions) 
as my own energy input into the grid (or noosphere) would allow if there 
were an actual connection.


I think I'll ask an LLM the best way to go about that, and get back to you!

- Steve



On 8/6/24 18:05, Stephen Guerin wrote:

Glen writes:
 >We had identities like "head" (kid who does lots of drugs), "jock" 
(kids who spent lots of time in organized athletics), "brain" (kids 
who spent time doing chess, math, ...), etc. There was also a name 
for the [metal|wood|…] shop kids. But I've forgotten it.


Ala the ElfSelector and Consciousness Table, I asked GPT to generate 
30 highschool social groups  from the 80, 3 orthogonal vectors with 
semantic meaning to separate them and 3 questions to ask you to put 
you in the space.
https://guerin.acequia.io/identityTensor.html 



literally 40 seconds from prompt to deployed page :-)

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:30 AM glen > wrote:


    I'm in an ongoing argument with some of my salon goers about 
identity. People seem to straddle its multiple meanings for 
rhetorical (or confirmation biasing) purposes, fluidly switching one 
context/meaning for another so often and so fluidly as to prevent me 
from understanding whatever it is they're saying (or trying to avoid 
saying).


    Introspection is rife with such problems, including a six year 
old coming to some self-identification/registration as a member of 
some crisp class/category. The most recent Bad Faith rhetoric about 
identity had to do with "neurodivergent". There seems to be a trend 
amongst "the kids these days" to identify as autistic or ADHD. I 
mean, I was clearly "different" when I was a kid. We had identities 
like "head" (kid who does lots of drugs), "jock" (kids who spent lots 
of time in organized athletics), "brain" (kids who spent time doing 
chess, math, ...), etc. There was also a name for the [metal|wood|…] 
shop kids. But I've forgotten it.


    Some of us were diagnosed with various labels including some 
words we're not supposed to say anymore. Many of my friends had such 
conditions. But none of us *identified* as those diagnoses. The 
diagnoses seemed almost orthogonal to the identities/tribes. (I 
happened to be a member of the heads, jocks, brains, and "band nerd" 
tribes; that multi-tribe crossover was part of what made me feel 
"different".) And each group had its share of the same diagnoses.


    It seems to me that our tech-associated, individualistic, 
isolation has driven "the kids" to over-emphasize their diagnoses, to 
adopt them as identities/tribes, identifying from the inside->out; 
whereas we (can't speak for anyone else, really) mostly identified 
from the outside->in. We were sorted by society. The kids these days 
seem more self

Re: [FRIAM] lunch at Casa Bonita today at 1230p.

[steve smith]

Will there be (more) cliff diving?   Metaphorically of course.

We'll be at lunch today at Casa Bonita.

-S

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Re: [FRIAM] New Mexican's Sunday's story on education proficiency

[steve smith]

By the way, my daughter's title in the Secretary of Public Education 
Office is Financial Technician.  I can multiply two 2 digit numbers 
mentally pretty fast.


Frank
I so know the massive slowdown when I go from 2-3 digits (even 2x3) 
multiplication...   it goes from something mostly intuitive and barely 
notational to worse than 50/50 and then acutely beyond if I go to more 
digits, though not linear with quantity, superlinear with exponent/digits.


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024, 7:11 AM Edward Angel  wrote:

The following is hard to believe but true.

Last weekend, I was in line at Walgreens. The older woman in front
of me gave the cashier a $20 bill for a $13.54 purchase. The young
cashier was completely unable to figure out the correct change.
After a couple of failed tries, the older woman tried to teach the
cashier how to subtract $13.54 from $20 but that was a failure.
She then tried to get the casher to add to $13.54 until the
cashier reach $20. When that failed, she helped the cashier add
small change and dollars until she got to $6.46.

I don’t think giving everyone a calculator is the solution.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science
Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico



1017 Sierra Pinon


Santa Fe, NM 87501


505-984-0136 (home)an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel


On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:28 PM, Frank Wimberly 
wrote:

I'm not sure my 30+ year old daughter knows the times tables. 
She works for the Secretary of Public Education. If you ask her
about it she will say she uses calculators and spreadsheets. I think.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,


Santa Fe, NM 87505



505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Aug 7, 2024, 9:12 PM Russell Standish
 wrote:

It is a test that you know your 7 or 8 times table. And the
definition
of a prime number (which could be given as part of the
question, if
not the curriculum).

I would expect most 9 or 10 years olds should know their
times tables.

Or am I wrong abut kids these days?

On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 12:43:54PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote:
> Ms. O'Hara:
>
> RE your story Sunday, "Does proficiency give full picture?"
> From your lede:
> "Pop quiz: What number is both a prime number and a factor
or 56"?
>
> If I understand correctly, this is a question on an exam
given to fourth
> graders, 9- or 10-year-olds.
> Could you please point me to some source in the city or
state education
> departments who can tell me what short- or long-term value
this question about
> mathematics -- NOT arithmetic -- has for students that age?
>
> We live in a state where it is a rare cashier who can do
the mental
> arithmetic to make change from a $20 bill. Can we first
find out if fourth
> graders can do that before getting into primes and factorials?
> *--
> 
> Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482(c)   505.473.9646(h)
> Visit Global Santa Fe
> 

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-- 




Dr Russell Standish                    Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
http://www.hpcoders.

Re: [FRIAM] When are telic attributions appropriate in physical descriptions?

[steve smith]

Maybe. I'm not convinced. Profundity is THE breeding ground for bullshit. 
I'm more inclined (in the context of my own profundity or perhaps more 
aptly prolificness or prolixity) to suggest that it is more of a mask 
(and therefore enabler?) of bullshit than a breeding ground. Could be a 
fine hair I suppose.
And "wisdom" is not far off. Mansplaining, in general beyond that of 
automated mansplainers like GPT, is rife with pseudo-wisdom.


I love me the term "mansplaining" and particularly the proto-form that 
Rebecca Solnit offered me in her "Men Explain Things to Me" some 10+ 
years ago...   in defense of my gender, I want to expand it to 
"DominantCultureSplaining" which I do acknowledge is well represented 
simply as "Man" splaining.


And to that point, I agree that GPT does seem to lean toward "Dominant 
Culture Splaining" and wonder at just how/when the right prompting will 
yield otherwise?   Seems like anything it can do, it can do "en 
complement" if that is a concept?


Your comments here help me to think about that...

- Steve



On 8/8/24 08:42, Stephen Guerin wrote:
Friam is a space to interact with them as I think they hold our 
collective wisdom and sometimes generate profound insights that I 
never would have considered on my own. 




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Re: [FRIAM] differential diagnosis of psychopathic vs spiritual experiences

[steve smith]

I tend to (mildly?) dismiss the "kids these days" self-identification as 
a variant on what I remember back when I was one... and my experience 
aligns somewhat with your own the the nuance that there was some 
holonomic overlap..  Our Jocks sometimes were also Honor's students and 
sometimes even Stomps (cowboy/FFA) for example.  The wood/metal shop 
crowd was significantly Stomps and Heads for very different reason but 
being co-housed with the Print Shop there were Honor's Students and 
Band/Thespian types (with a big overlap amongst those two).


I do think that identifying with one's diagnosis is a somewhat new 
thing.   I do have anecdotal evidence of members of my generation and 
that of my parents aggressively identifying with something like a 
diagnosis, maybe not DSM-style diagnoses, but more by their 
"problems"...   it felt to me like a way of trying to re-appropriate an 
accusation as an identity to be proud of. I think we have a LOT more 
crisply named such things (evidenced by the nuanced variants?)  Or maybe 
I am just a "grump old get off my lawn man" now and that is my lazy way out.


I still submit that the pithy "I am who you think I think I am" covers a 
reat deal of the space.


noveau-tribal, freshly coined categories have been around for a very 
long time, most obviously to me in sweeping cultural movements... in the 
arts one might be a classical, romantic, realist, impressionist, 
dada-ist, modernist, postmodernist painter,photographer,sculptor, 
playwright, poet, novelist, etc...


- Steve

I'm in an ongoing argument with some of my salon goers about identity. 
People seem to straddle its multiple meanings for rhetorical (or 
confirmation biasing) purposes, fluidly switching one context/meaning 
for another so often and so fluidly as to prevent me from 
understanding whatever it is they're saying (or trying to avoid saying).


Introspection is rife with such problems, including a six year old 
coming to some self-identification/registration as a member of some 
crisp class/category. The most recent Bad Faith rhetoric about 
identity had to do with "neurodivergent". There seems to be a trend 
amongst "the kids these days" to identify as autistic or ADHD. I mean, 
I was clearly "different" when I was a kid. We had identities like 
"head" (kid who does lots of drugs), "jock" (kids who spent lots of 
time in organized athletics), "brain" (kids who spent time doing 
chess, math, ...), etc. There was also a name for the [metal|wood|…] 
shop kids. But I've forgotten it.


Some of us were diagnosed with various labels including some words 
we're not supposed to say anymore. Many of my friends had such 
conditions. But none of us *identified* as those diagnoses. The 
diagnoses seemed almost orthogonal to the identities/tribes. (I 
happened to be a member of the heads, jocks, brains, and "band nerd" 
tribes; that multi-tribe crossover was part of what made me feel 
"different".) And each group had its share of the same diagnoses.


It seems to me that our tech-associated, individualistic, isolation 
has driven "the kids" to over-emphasize their diagnoses, to adopt them 
as identities/tribes, identifying from the inside->out; whereas we 
(can't speak for anyone else, really) mostly identified from the 
outside->in. We were sorted by society. The kids these days seem more 
self-sorted. On the one hand, that could feel like increased liberty 
and free association. But on the other hand, it's like everyone is a 
home-schooled weirdo these days and nobody knows how to, for example, 
bite their tongue or avoid picking their nose in public.


Not everybody needs to be a Hunter S Thompson, "neurodivergent", or 
whatever. Some of us should be allowed to identify as "normal". 
Introspection is a sickness.


On 8/5/24 17:01, steve smith wrote:
I jumped straight to the Artistic meaning of /frottage/ as coined 
originally by Max Ernst and while not as an act of psychopathy, it 
does have strong implications for the psychological/subconscious 
implications in this context?


In any case, I find it a compelling opening line of the /call me 
Ishmael/ caliber.


On 8/5/24 10:04 AM, Prof David West wrote:
This is very interesting, and timely. I am completing an 
autobiography/essay/monograph for which this will be quite relevant. 
The opening lines of the work:


/"An act of frottage triggered the self-recognition that I was a 
psychopath. I did not, of course, know either term or their meanings./

/
/
/I was six." /

davew

On Thu, Aug 1, 2024, at 11:03 AM, glen wrote:
> Progress or Pathology? Differential Diagnosis and Intervention 
Criteria

> for Meditation-Related Challenges: Perspectives From Buddhist
> Meditation Teachers and Practitioners
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7403193/
>
> Based on our conversation attempting to identify behavioral 
markers for
> consciousness, I thought this paper might give some insight into 
Dave's
> straddling of mystical and materialistic descriptions o

[FRIAM] The Limbic System of the Superorganism and Adrenal Fatigue

[steve smith]

We have spoken of Limbic hijack at the personal level, but haven't 
broached an analogy of this with the US, Western World, and Global 
"superorganism" which I feel (being a metaphorist) is an apt one.


While I have not identified precisely as liberal or progressive in my 
life, I have it seems been increasingly aligned with their values and 
more counter-aligned with the *methods* if not the values of the 
conservative movements.


Over the past few years I have become acutely aware of my own limbic and 
sympathetic/parasympathetic systems and how hey might get dysregulated 
based on how I A) engage in the world; and B) how I introspect and 
self-manage.


I feel that Trumpism brought us an acute version of LImbic hijack (both 
of his syncophants and those who rally against him)... if there is 
genius in his actions/strategy it might be this... I have a cousin whose 
husband (they are gay) came up in the NYC real-estate scene and he 
described Trump right away this way... that his "disruptor" status was 
to gen up controversy that he could exploit in his real-estate deals... 
etc... and predicted roughly what unfolded since then.


Trump Derangement Syndrome is highly bimodal but pretty well covers the 
span...  love him or hate him, and I attribute that to this... he makes 
jacks up the adrenals every chance he gets.


I wanted to believe that post J6 his movement had hit significant 
adrenal fatigue, but somehow he managed to double down and trigger a 
"second wind" particularly among his "angry white man" crowd.  I think 
that the end of the socio-economic distruption he caused (followed by 
the same from COVID) actually lead to a "rest state" for most of us, 
including his followers who sadly then began to forget what a wanker he 
had become (always was?).


Hope springs infernal for me, so Kamala's own hijack,  promoting 
something like oxytocin over cortisol for many is a win win. Those who 
are exhausted from hating/fearing Trump now have something to switch 
away from and those who are getting spun up *against* Kamala are just 
fatiguing their already fatigued adrenals...  even the Progressives who 
want to hate on Kamala (for lots of vaguely ok reasons) are likely 
exhausting their chemistries of resentment (for better or worse).


I also wonder at whether the history of civilization or at least our 
last 250 years of this "grand experiment" have not been a fluctuation 
between these two dominant modes (fight/flight, rest/relax) with one 
naturally giving over to the other?


Mumble,

 - Steve



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