Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
Le 28/02/2015 05:17, Isaac Dunham a écrit : What baffles me is that Lennart *has* written a daemon specifically to *avoid* hung boots due to networks being down. It's called ifplugd. (And yes, if I used my ethernet port more often than the twice a year I now use it, I might want to use ifplugd. Unlike systemd, it's a single small daemon that just checks interface state and runs a script if it's connected.) Or, that might be the way Debian sets up networking as a dependency of remote-fs which is a dependency of the late-boot programs in /usr. I used to encounter similar problems when I had no wireless; fortunately, sysvinit proceeds after a timeout. ifplugd is a nice little thing which does one thing and does it well. I use it everyday. Didn't know Poetering wrote it. Means he was once on the right side. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: >Ok, that sounds like a plan. > >But which is the default DE for Devuan-- XFCE or Mate? It will be Xfce4, since Mate is somehow too big. Later on, we may still want to have a respin installer and/or liveCD with Mate default and anyway Mate is simple to apt-get install. However the default DE will be Xfce4 and we are also contributing to its code in order to keep it away from systemd lockin (thanks Dima!) https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11574 Many VUAs love Xfce4 and its team is really a good example of talented open source developers with good concerns about usability, compatibility and resource consumption. we may want to backport a newer package ourselves with a more actual 4.12 (volunteers welcome). ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Ok, that sounds like a plan. But which is the default DE for Devuan-- XFCE or Mate? It will be Xfce4, since Mate is somehow too big. Later on, we may still want to have a respin installer and/or liveCD with Mate default and anyway Mate is simple to apt-get install. However the default DE will be Xfce4 and we are also contributing to its code in order to keep it away from systemd lockin (thanks Dima!) https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11574 Many VUAs love Xfce4 and its team is really a good example of talented open source developers with good concerns about usability, compatibility and resource consumption. we may want to backport a newer package ourselves with a more actual 4.12 (volunteers welcome). It seems we will have to wait a little for Mate, and maybe also for all the lightweight tiled DE's. Having to wait with Xfce4 is not a pain. It is simple, has a neat look and any beginner should find it easy to use. It's look and its panel are easy to configure. Xfce4 is probably the best choice for a default, both for the technical reasons given by Jaromil, and for its usability by everybody. Thanks again Dima! Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
hi Didier, On Sat, 28 Feb 2015, Didier Kryn wrote: > It seems we will have to wait a little for Mate, and maybe also > for all the lightweight tiled DE's. we'll likely support all lightweight desktops just out of the box, I doubt they have hard dependencies on systemd. Enlightnement perhaps just needs a recompilation with some flags, fellow VUA Asbesto Molesto gathered some notes here https://lab.dyne.org/Enlightenment and package maintainers are very welcome to step forward for this one and Mate. I'm an avid user of tiled desktops, in particular Awesome and LarsWM, so I'll certainly make sure those work well, for my own good. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Disnovation: an inquiry into the mechanics and rhetoric of innovation
I guess this is good food for thought in the philosophical discussion, a
post from the best blogger avantgarde I can think of, Regine Debatty
Disnovation, an inquiry into the mechanics and rhetoric of innovation
http://we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/2015/02/disnovation.php
It is a report about an (excellent, IMHO) exhibition who took place in Pau's
"festival accès)s(" France. Here below an excerpt:
A few months ago, the festival accès)s( in Pau (France) invited the audience to
take a critical look at the idea of a techno-driven progress, at a propaganda
machine that promise that new 'advances' in information and communication
technologies will solve our problems and fulfill the dreams we don't even know
we had. All we need to do is update, upgrade and replace our devices.
The problem is that this quest for the new, this confusion between 'innovation'
and 'progress', has been seeping into other areas of the public sphere:
politics, economy, eduction and art. This global phenomenon has contributed to
institute techno-sciences as the core of modern dogma and the consommation /
innovation pair as the driving force for the economics.
This 'Disnovation' (a term coined by Gregory Chatonsky), this techno-capitalist
innovation that feeds on our fear of obsolescence raises a series of questions:
Are the continuous flight towards novelty and the negation of preceding values
a human obligation, an intuitive tendency, an end in itself, a salutary value?
Is innovation the expression of an ideal whose purposes are dictated by mere
economic and industrial choices? How can artists become tacit actors for the
spreading and popularization of innovations? How does this context result as
counter-relief in hijacked, critical, poetic, alternative practices?
As a cherry on top there is a link to somehting I did not know it existed - and
it's awesome! the Livermore California's Longest Burning Light Bulb!
http://www.centennialbulb.org burning since 114 years now without interruption!
ciao
--
Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000)
We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
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Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
* On 2015 28 Feb 00:57 -0600, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > > > > > http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ > > > > > > > some computers need a partition table on the usb-stick to boot. > > > > > unetbootin should take care of that Give it a try as I've had good luck with unetbootin on various live CDs, but the Debian installer CDs seem to be a different story, at least for me. I've not tried it with Devuan Valentine, however. As it is so closely related to the Debian installer CD at this point in in time, these instructions may be useful: https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Easy forkability
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 08:59:08AM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > > > So, i see for protection two ways: technical, like minimalism for easy > > forking, and community driven development of the project. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee Of course that one links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds THis article offers some analysis of when the wisdom of crowds works and when it doesn't. The interaction structure of the crowd is a key element. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:37:03AM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2015 28 Feb 00:57 -0600, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > > > > > > > http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ > > > > > > > > > > some computers need a partition table on the usb-stick to boot. > > > > > > > > unetbootin should take care of that > > Give it a try as I've had good luck with unetbootin on various live CDs, > but the Debian installer CDs seem to be a different story, at least for > me. I've not tried it with Devuan Valentine, however. As it is so > closely related to the Debian installer CD at this point in in time, > these instructions may be useful: > > https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, isohybrid did the trick. What I don't know is whether the isohybridized version of the .iso would still work on a CD. If so, it might be effective just to distribute the hybridized version of the .iso. If not, we should possibly distribute both. An instruction to use isohybrid is unlikely to be useful to a complete beginner who does not yet have a Linux xytem available. Of course, this was a pre-alpha. Not expecting perfection and a vast infrastructure for all possibilities yet. --- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On 02/22/2015 07:38 PM, Jaromil wrote: dear Jonathan, you have very good concerns on usability. After Devuan 1.0 we might be able to quick fix desktop behaviour, I bet many developers involved will go do respins and blends. however, for what concerns us here and at least until the Devuan 1.0 release (which is a base system) you might have more chances interacting with the XFCE and the Mate projects, which are the main desktop environments Devuan offers on liveboot/install and are used by many other distributions. This way your contribution would have also a broader reach. Ok, that sounds like a plan. But which is the default DE for Devuan-- XFCE or Mate? Also, I'll respond below to Steve (I can't find his message so I just pasted it from the list archive...) On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 20:11:12 + (UTC) Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Hi Jonathan, I rearranged the order of your post... / >> >> Anyhow, if any of those three are missing under the planned system, >> I'd be happy to help try to rectify the situation. / That's supremely cool. Discoverability is *everything*!!! Hi Steve, I think discoverability is everything, too. But I'd like to differentiate discoverability from "re-discoverability", which is what you get everytime Gnome 3 changes its design-mind, or when Yahoo Mail feels like their interface isn't cool enough. I picked these three features because I don't think they are overly complex, and they should be able to provide a decent and stable experience for a decade or more into the future. / >> Hello,A few questions about the GUI for Devuan... >> 1) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, will there be an >> icon or other discoverable item the user can click to see a list of >> available wifi network connections?/ I can do a lot of the non-gui stuff on this, should we decide that NetworkManager and Wicd aren't sufficient. Basically, "iwlist scanning" yields the list, complete with everything needed to show the security type and signal strength. wpa-supplicant and the *horribly documented* wpa_cli to make and break connections and handle passwords. I'd envision this as a python-Tk program (connection time is huge compared to executation time, so performance isn't an issue). There's no reason for this system to use dbus. A few questions: * I've read about network manager being designed so that multiple front-ends can be used. But is the opposite possible? Is there a way to take network manager applet's taskbar dropdown list GUI and use that front-end on something else? * if not, would pyqt be a possibility? Tk is of course super-easy to incrementally develop, but it's missing crucial elements like theming, native dialogs, and a slew of other stuff that becomes a brick-wall if you want anything more than a minimally-working GUI. / >> 2) When the DE's main menu pops >> up, will the user be able to _immediately_ start typing characters >> and see a list of applications filtered to match what is being >> typed?/ Dmenu does exactly that: http://tools.suckless.org/dmenu/ Dmenu is a productivity fountain without peer, that can be installed on *any* Linux. I wouldn't be caught dead without an easy hotkey to Dmenu. I tweak my dmenu to scroll vertically down the screen instead of horizontally across the top. I also tweak it for max visibility foreground and background, for quick recognition. If you know the name of the executable and don't need to pass it arguments, dmenu is the king of discoverability. I also user UMENU: http://troubleshooters.com/umenu/index.htm UMENU is a spectacular menu program with single keystroke actuation and prompted argument substitution (so you can input arguments). It can be used not only for a "start menu", but also to bolt a discoverable front-end any complex command. However, UMENU has a nightmare deployment process, so less than 100 people use it. Sooner or later, I'll rewrite it to use something other than its current EMDL, so it can be easily deployed anywhere. I'll probably use a directory/subdirectory/file config hierarchy like djb uses. // Great! I'll check these two out and see how they work. One great thing about this type of tool is that it doesn't punish the user for discovering and learning the tool. When you click a start menu and navigate some categories, you get worse and worse productivity the more you use it-- both the latency and the overhead of navigating become obstacles. But with these kinds of tools you can eventually learn to bring up an app faster than your eye can track the animation of the tool. A graphical tool that can rival the speed of the command line in any domain is a decent design IMO. Btw-- I do not mena to imply _replacing_ a point-and-click menu or right-click menu in a DE./ >> 3) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, when the user >> clicks the "Super" key (often has the Windows icon on it) will the >> DEs main menu pop up?
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
* On 2015 28 Feb 07:56 -0600, Hendrik Boom wrote: > As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, isohybrid did the trick. Oh, yeah, I remember that *now*. Slaps forehead! > What I don't know is whether the isohybridized version of the .iso > would still work on a CD. If so, it might be effective just to > distribute the hybridized version of the .iso. > > If not, we should possibly distribute both. An instruction to use > isohybrid is unlikely to be useful to a complete beginner who does not > yet have a Linux xytem available. IMO, the Debian installer requires just a few too many hoops to get the image onto a USB stick for a beginner. I am very appreciative of those distributions that not only offer an ISO but also a .img for writing directly to a USB stick. > Of course, this was a pre-alpha. Not expecting perfection and a > vast infrastructure for all possibilities yet. While it seems like a straightforward process to use the Debian installer, I'm certain there are many behind the scenes gotchas to be found. :-D - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Disnovation: an inquiry into the mechanics and rhetoric of innovation
> A few months ago, the festival accès)s( in Pau (France) invited the > audience to > take a critical look at the idea of a techno-driven progress, at a > propaganda > machine that promise that new 'advances' in information and communication > technologies will solve our problems and fulfill the dreams we don't even > know > we had. All we need to do is update, upgrade and replace our devices. > Obligatory: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 08:18:28AM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2015 28 Feb 07:56 -0600, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, isohybrid did the trick. > > Oh, yeah, I remember that *now*. Slaps forehead! > > > What I don't know is whether the isohybridized version of the .iso > > would still work on a CD. If so, it might be effective just to > > distribute the hybridized version of the .iso. > > > > If not, we should possibly distribute both. An instruction to use > > isohybrid is unlikely to be useful to a complete beginner who does not > > yet have a Linux xytem available. > > IMO, the Debian installer requires just a few too many hoops to get the > image onto a USB stick for a beginner. I am very appreciative of those > distributions that not only offer an ISO but also a .img for writing > directly to a USB stick. > > > Of course, this was a pre-alpha. Not expecting perfection and a > > vast infrastructure for all possibilities yet. > > While it seems like a straightforward process to use the Debian > installer, I'm certain there are many behind the scenes gotchas to be > found. :-D I read the Debian installer mailing list since I upgraded to Jessie early and had huge difficulties. Yes, there are currently many gotchas. There's apparently a bug that prevents them from offering a choice of inits, which they think is too comlex to fix before the Jessie release. -- hendrik > > - Nate > > -- > > "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all > possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." > > Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
Le 28/02/2015 11:38, Jaromil a écrit : hi Didier, On Sat, 28 Feb 2015, Didier Kryn wrote: It seems we will have to wait a little for Mate, and maybe also for all the lightweight tiled DE's. we'll likely support all lightweight desktops just out of the box, I doubt they have hard dependencies on systemd. Enlightnement perhaps just needs a recompilation with some flags, fellow VUA Asbesto Molesto gathered some notes here https://lab.dyne.org/Enlightenment and package maintainers are very welcome to step forward for this one and Mate. I'm an avid user of tiled desktops, in particular Awesome and LarsWM, so I'll certainly make sure those work well, for my own good. I was expecting a base system with tricky DE install but it seems we'll have a host of choices from the beginning! wah. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
Le 28/02/2015 14:55, Hendrik Boom a écrit : On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:37:03AM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2015 28 Feb 00:57 -0600, Martijn Dekkers wrote: http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ some computers need a partition table on the usb-stick to boot. unetbootin should take care of that Give it a try as I've had good luck with unetbootin on various live CDs, but the Debian installer CDs seem to be a different story, at least for me. I've not tried it with Devuan Valentine, however. As it is so closely related to the Debian installer CD at this point in in time, these instructions may be useful: https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, isohybrid did the trick. What I don't know is whether the isohybridized version of the .iso would still work on a CD. If so, it might be effective just to distribute the hybridized version of the .iso. If not, we should possibly distribute both. An instruction to use isohybrid is unlikely to be useful to a complete beginner who does not yet have a Linux xytem available. Of course, this was a pre-alpha. Not expecting perfection and a vast infrastructure for all possibilities yet. --- hendrik Question to the VUAs: is it planned to provide a debootstrap, or devutstrap? This is very convenient when installing on embeded devices without a virtual terminal. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 09:45 -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > I read the Debian installer mailing list since I upgraded to Jessie > early and had huge difficulties. Yes, there are currently many > gotchas. There's apparently a bug that prevents them from > offering a choice of inits, which they think is too comlex to > fix before the Jessie release. Of course they don't want to offer alternate inits :( And the bug is a long-standing one, where the maintainer refuses to include the very small patch to debootstrap, see https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=668001#20 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=668001#90 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=668001#100 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/28/2015 11:38 AM, Jaromil wrote: > > I'm an avid user of tiled desktops, in particular Awesome and > LarsWM, so I'll certainly make sure those work well, for my own > good. i3 user here. In case we ever need specific tweaks for that (eg. Debian somehow manages to introduce systemd dependencies on the i3 package) I'd be more than happy to step up. cheers - -- Stefan Ott http://www.ott.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJU8e7CAAoJENlTbTnJZqYo/8MQAJdnPMNCUPAvjZXNGOoO9o69 puf4nSZfiEkIWPQ9UvE+yRxhx0Tups3xpKXuoWR0m+o9pcyHMMjOZvPKsIBA//OD rE0Ok4NSTMwqxJc+xJplNPpkTgP67HQYQAPHUjOnnQN+Glw+X6NHzPaPizJ/C/tE 2kuITX0D3J0ynUFHjHQrWQRidKifr06ownEIs+U6kHO3ACuY2vMk1SEZCwh1qWzg nkNahpep1vzss2L5nRF4897qdMASCOuKWDgKWdhn9I+7NT5lV4mBSHGLhR8doVAJ GAcwtfD1m4EiA+sBN3YP+T0hJbpZCtGumCZJ0L0G237qSAhT0qKw8SPJFxe1NJJW dJkCJXanyIrGtIF7QkZQJkjdsCNa/nvyuyqQqBYP5/mcYjl+7R/+xfkwS7bux2Am FGKcODmifu8Hb1s82Y3tBfWBJ3V8T99+nmnBa1CF0VCdJWvLrgW2O5T823f0Ibk8 2/G2hpiQ+HEjVePEYb8Rf92YS3Qks89pvDafIplaBCcFN3+rbIfeSg+H8fhzYAMI foTdsh+WIufqHHTbA2bqUhGv1uhuvcILO7vqB2uNgtowtumkSoNzo8IGf4WRwwGK nPbaK56BtEkibnpRyexRzP/DjEC1jfBQpJNu/8YasvYfcw2rKq+mNaIaSG2PUK/V YrSeMLY1Kpf3/rjO7OKI =Thi9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 01:42:49 -0500 "Steven W. Scott" wrote: > On Feb 27, 2015 11:45 PM, "Steve Litt" > wrote: > > > On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:18:15 -0600 > > "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > > > > > > > With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is > > > called for here. I think that because personality clashes that > > > Debian's entire systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality > > > long ago. > > > > You know, T.J., I might just agree with you, *if* you can show me a > > block diagram of the systemd ecosystem, *complete with interaction > > lines as well as functional blocks*. > > > > You know, like this: > > > > http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/201202/images/email_arch_personal.png > > > > Or these: > > > > http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/200803/images/server_app.png > > http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/200803/images/client_app.png > > > > Or these: > > > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_process_overview.png > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_daemontools.png > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_minimal_service.png > > > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_dnscache_block_diagram.png > > > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_tinydns_block_diagram.png > > > > Or this: > > > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nullmailer/images/nullmailer_mm.png > > > > But not the following, because it's boxes with no lines: > > > > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Systemd_components.svg/440px-Systemd_components.svg.png > > > > Nor this, because it's obviously incomplete as a representation of > > the systemd ecosphere: > > > > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Linux_kernel_unified_hierarchy_cgroups_and_systemd.svg/440px-Linux_kernel_unified_hierarchy_cgroups_and_systemd.svg.png > > > > > > Bottom line is this: If you make a modular system with thin > > interfaces and sane components, somebody will make a block diagram > > representing it, accurately, in its entirety. > > > > It could be argued that the email, sockets, and djb software > > systems I diagrammed were much simpler than systemd. Fair enough, > > but I'm one guy doing this stuff in my spare time, not six guys > > getting paid full time by Red Hat. I'm sure one of the geniuses Red > > Hat hired could have diagrammed system accurately and completely. > > Heck, I often do that *before* I write software, just so the system > > turns out architecturally sound. > > > > Let's see the block diagram. Prove systemd doesn't have grave > > architectural problems. > > > > SteveT > > > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > Lol! I recently happened to be researching the different soundsystem > architectures, after incinerating pulseaudio on my laptop/Wheezy and > then having different problems, and found --> > https://wiki.debian.org/Sound > > What struck me of particular interest were the three diagrams of how > alsa/jack/pulseaudio perceive the sound architecture. I couldn't help > but think that systemd very likely has the same structure. The > "mother, may I?/None shall pass/TRON MCP" structure. > > Developers often hang to a general pattern of designing things; I > cant see why the designer behind pulseaudio would be different. Best > argument against systemd I've seen to date. > > SWS Hi Steven, First, thank you *so much* for providing these three diagrams. I've been trying to find out how sound works for a long time. As far as http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Pulseaudio-diagram.svg/1000px-Pulseaudio-diagram.svg.png , if systemd had a block diagram like that, and if the boxes truly represent modules and not just concepts, I would stipulate that T.J. might have a point, because that diagram is actually something I could troubleshoot off of, always assuming the arrows between them represent thin, clean interfaces. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] NIC at boot, was Re: simple backgrounds
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 02/27/2015 11:17 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 06:13:24PM +, KatolaZ wrote: >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 01:56:56PM +, Matthew Melton wrote: >> >> [cut] >> Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the systemd-nonsense: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html >>> >>> Think they have found a solution after reading the followups. Reminds me >>> that someone complained they couldn't terminate fdisk if started by systemd >>> during boot. >>> Might offer to help them...once I have stopped laughing of course. Ha ha. >>> >>> >> >> Well, I still find it hard to believe that a modern Unix OS might be >> stuck at boot because I forgot to connect an ethernet cable... This is >> the essence of the systemd-nonsense. In that case it was "just" a > > What baffles me is that Lennart *has* written a daemon specifically to > *avoid* hung boots due to networks being down. > It's called ifplugd. > > (And yes, if I used my ethernet port more often than the twice a year > I now use it, I might want to use ifplugd. Unlike systemd, it's a > single small daemon that just checks interface state and runs a script > if it's connected.) > > Or, that might be the way Debian sets up networking as a dependency of > remote-fs which is a dependency of the late-boot programs in /usr. > I used to encounter similar problems when I had no wireless; fortunately, > sysvinit proceeds after a timeout. > First, I assume that if you do not use your wired NIC, you are using 802.11 rather than 802.3; some of us prefer the security and speed of a wired network. I wired my house for 1Gbit years ago. The actual bandwidth utilization for 802.3 is better than 802.11 and it is more secure. As to the daemon. Even with a BSD style parallel IPL, it is easy to modify the start up scripts with either a spinlock or even better a parallel monitor that check the state of the chip set on the NIC and restarts it if a certain time passes. If you prefer not to do this (I do not), then you can do what I did. That is, I built a post init (IPL) system. I placed it in /etc/local.init.d. A script in /etc/cron.d activates a sequence of checks using the @reboot command for the cron task time. Think of this as a modern equivalent to /etc/init.d/rclocal. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlTx+m4ACgkQpY/BHpBmP2pzCwD/cvagNSe3IWCma2y19NtfpgFR 0P++CDotBblJiAFjthoA/ikeNVHlzUwQUlW8/XCzOCGy/Senr4VrUOkk0zi615VK =IYgC -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Disnovation: an inquiry into the mechanics and rhetoric of innovation
Mother Nature had to solve that problem a long time ago. The only reason it's not so obvious it's because our notion of evolution was created (or rather I should say distorted) by a fascist minded people. At the core of all life lies DNA replication, which is just copying itself as best as possible (if it works, there's no need to change it!). That is stagnation, and is very much needed. But this in the long run may create problems, because environment is slowly changing, and some innovation is needed to avoid extinction. The only way the nature has to achieve it is the gene exchange. Now the crucial question is, how and why it works? Fascists claim that it creates "better" organisms, with a purpose and right to replace the old "worse" ones (if you see an analogy with some init system here, it's because there's one!). But it's not true, a child of two geniuses doesn't even have to be smart, we still have one cell bacteria, mammals didn't kill the reptiles, and so on. It can't be true, because Nature can't know the future, so there's no way to tell what is / will be better and what worse. For this reason the only reasonable strategy is to create as much diversity as possible, so even if some unpredictable catastrophe / disease happens, not all organisms will be affected by it. Innovation is needed, but it can't destroy the diversity, and when it does, it can't and won't last long. In terms of (short) success, cancer cells are the best, they seem to be immortal, have the ability to dominate and destroy all other cells in the organism. But the price of this is high, they finally kill themselves by killing the organism in which they grow. Once again it's an obvious analogy, and hopefully that cancer won't kill linux. Yes, innovation is needed, but not at all price, since nothing can be the best solution, and the more diversity the better, for everyone. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 15:00:01 -0500 Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > On 02/22/2015 07:38 PM, Jaromil wrote: > > dear Jonathan, > > > > you have very good concerns on usability. After Devuan 1.0 we might > > be able to quick fix desktop behaviour, I bet many developers > > involved will go do respins and blends. > > > > however, for what concerns us here and at least until the Devuan 1.0 > > release (which is a base system) you might have more chances > > interacting with the XFCE and the Mate projects, which are the main > > desktop environments Devuan offers on liveboot/install and are used > > by many other distributions. This way your contribution would have > > also a broader reach. > > Ok, that sounds like a plan. > > But which is the default DE for Devuan-- XFCE or Mate? I don't think it matters. I see four kinds of DEs: 1) No panel (Openbox et al) 2) Panel (Xfce, Lxde, JWM, et al) 3) Inclusion of human ambiguities (Gnome, Unity) 4) Bloatware (KDE, Gnome, Unity) I'm pretty sure Network Manager would work fine with 2, 3 and 4. Wicd works fine with all 4. The thing I'm proposing would work fine with all four, and would depend only on the wpa_supplicant family and whatever GUI dependencies the GUI version decided to incorporate. > > Also, I'll respond below to Steve (I can't find his message so I just > pasted it from the list archive...) > > >On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 20:11:12 + (UTC) > >Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > >Hi Jonathan, > > >I rearranged the order of your post... > / > >> > >> Anyhow, if any of those three are missing under the planned > >> system, I'd be happy to help try to rectify the situation. / > > >That's supremely cool. Discoverability is *everything*!!! > > Hi Steve, > I think discoverability is everything, too. But I'd like to > differentiate discoverability > from "re-discoverability", which is what you get everytime Gnome 3 > changes its design-mind, or when Yahoo Mail feels like their > interface isn't cool enough. Yes. Please modify my statement to incorporate your preceding sentence. > > I picked these three features because I don't think they are overly > complex, That's for sure. #1 is a fairly easy set of shellscripts, perhaps front-ended by whatever. #2 is dmenu plus a hotkey, and #3 is just a hotkey. > and > they should be able to provide a decent and stable experience for a > decade or > more into the future. wpa_supplicant doesn't change much, so I'd imagine only the networking GUI front end would be subject to change. > / > >> Hello,A few questions about the GUI for Devuan... > >> 1) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, will there be an > >> icon or other discoverable item the user can click to see a list > >> of available wifi network connections?/ > > >I can do a lot of the non-gui stuff on this, should we decide that > >NetworkManager and Wicd aren't sufficient. > > >Basically, "iwlist scanning" yields the list, complete with > >everything needed to show the security type and signal strength. > >wpa-supplicant and the *horribly documented* wpa_cli to make and > >break connections and handle passwords. > > >I'd envision this as a python-Tk program (connection time is huge > >compared to executation time, so performance isn't an issue). > >There's no reason for this system to use dbus. > > A few questions: > * I've read about network manager being designed so that multiple > front-ends can > be used. But is the opposite possible? Is there a way to take > network manager applet's > taskbar dropdown list GUI and use that front-end on something else? I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, > * if not, would pyqt be a possibility? Tk is of course super-easy to > incrementally develop, > but it's missing crucial elements like theming, native dialogs, and a > slew of other stuff that > becomes a brick-wall if you want anything more than a > minimally-working GUI. / Everything you say in the preceding paragraph is true. I'll just give you an API, and you can hook any front end technology to it. However... My way of thinking is this: The less dependency, the better. If *I* were programming the front end, I'd use the least dependency encumbered GUI lib I could, and that wouldn't be Qt. But of course, the beauty of my giving you an API is that you can write the front end in pyqt, Joe could write it in Python/TK, Sam could write it in Python/curses, and Dave could write it in C/ncurses. > >> 2) When the DE's main menu pops > >> up, will the user be able to _immediately_ start typing characters > >> and see a list of applications filtered to match what is being > >> typed?/ > > >Dmenu does exactly that: > > >http://tools.suckless.org/dmenu/ > > >Dmenu is a productivity fountain without peer, that can be > >installed on *any* Linux. I wouldn't be caught dead without an easy > >hotkey to Dmenu. I tweak my dmenu to scroll vertically down the > >screen instead of horizontally acros
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
> I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, Dbus is just the mechanism other programs use to interact with NM. If you were to carve out the dbus API from NM, it would still manage your network as before, but you'd need to add a different way to control it. -Jude On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 15:00:01 -0500 > Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > > On 02/22/2015 07:38 PM, Jaromil wrote: > > > dear Jonathan, > > > > > > you have very good concerns on usability. After Devuan 1.0 we might > > > be able to quick fix desktop behaviour, I bet many developers > > > involved will go do respins and blends. > > > > > > however, for what concerns us here and at least until the Devuan 1.0 > > > release (which is a base system) you might have more chances > > > interacting with the XFCE and the Mate projects, which are the main > > > desktop environments Devuan offers on liveboot/install and are used > > > by many other distributions. This way your contribution would have > > > also a broader reach. > > > > Ok, that sounds like a plan. > > > > But which is the default DE for Devuan-- XFCE or Mate? > > I don't think it matters. I see four kinds of DEs: > > 1) No panel (Openbox et al) > 2) Panel (Xfce, Lxde, JWM, et al) > 3) Inclusion of human ambiguities (Gnome, Unity) > 4) Bloatware (KDE, Gnome, Unity) > > I'm pretty sure Network Manager would work fine with 2, 3 and 4. Wicd > works fine with all 4. The thing I'm proposing would work fine with all > four, and would depend only on the wpa_supplicant family and whatever > GUI dependencies the GUI version decided to incorporate. > > > > > Also, I'll respond below to Steve (I can't find his message so I just > > pasted it from the list archive...) > > > > >On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 20:11:12 + (UTC) > > >Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > > > >Hi Jonathan, > > > > >I rearranged the order of your post... > > / > > >> > > >> Anyhow, if any of those three are missing under the planned > > >> system, I'd be happy to help try to rectify the situation. / > > > > >That's supremely cool. Discoverability is *everything*!!! > > > > Hi Steve, > > I think discoverability is everything, too. But I'd like to > > differentiate discoverability > > from "re-discoverability", which is what you get everytime Gnome 3 > > changes its design-mind, or when Yahoo Mail feels like their > > interface isn't cool enough. > > Yes. Please modify my statement to incorporate your preceding sentence. > > > > > I picked these three features because I don't think they are overly > > complex, > > That's for sure. #1 is a fairly easy set of shellscripts, perhaps > front-ended by whatever. #2 is dmenu plus a hotkey, and #3 is just a > hotkey. > > > and > > they should be able to provide a decent and stable experience for a > > decade or > > more into the future. > > wpa_supplicant doesn't change much, so I'd imagine only the networking > GUI front end would be subject to change. > > > / > > >> Hello,A few questions about the GUI for Devuan... > > >> 1) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, will there be an > > >> icon or other discoverable item the user can click to see a list > > >> of available wifi network connections?/ > > > > >I can do a lot of the non-gui stuff on this, should we decide that > > >NetworkManager and Wicd aren't sufficient. > > > > >Basically, "iwlist scanning" yields the list, complete with > > >everything needed to show the security type and signal strength. > > >wpa-supplicant and the *horribly documented* wpa_cli to make and > > >break connections and handle passwords. > > > > >I'd envision this as a python-Tk program (connection time is huge > > >compared to executation time, so performance isn't an issue). > > >There's no reason for this system to use dbus. > > > > A few questions: > > * I've read about network manager being designed so that multiple > > front-ends can > > be used. But is the opposite possible? Is there a way to take > > network manager applet's > > taskbar dropdown list GUI and use that front-end on something else? > > I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, > > > > * if not, would pyqt be a possibility? Tk is of course super-easy to > > incrementally develop, > > but it's missing crucial elements like theming, native dialogs, and a > > slew of other stuff that > > becomes a brick-wall if you want anything more than a > > minimally-working GUI. / > > Everything you say in the preceding paragraph is true. I'll just give > you an API, and you can hook any front end technology to it. However... > > My way of thinking is this: The less dependency, the better. If *I* > were programming the front end, I'd use the least dependency encumbered > GUI lib I could, and that wouldn't be Qt. > > But of course, the beauty of my giving you an API is that you can write > the front end in pyqt, Joe could write it in Python/TK, Sam could > write it in Python/curses, and
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:34:37 -0500 Jude Nelson wrote: > > I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, > > Dbus is just the mechanism other programs use to interact with NM. > If you were to carve out the dbus API from NM, it would still manage > your network as before, but you'd need to add a different way to > control it. > > -Jude :-) For me it would be easier to build something simple from scratch than rip out and replace other peoples' code from something unfamiliar to me. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
Am 27.02.2015 21:18 schrieb T.J. Duchene: With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is called for here. I think that because personality clashes that Debian's entire systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality long ago. I wouldn't call "personality clash" the case of a user having specific problems with systemd's networking tentacles on Debian Jessie, don't you think? Anyway, I guess that far from focusing on subjective topics, DeVuan is forking DeBian itself right now, while encouraging objective and balanced discussion, which is welcome and a pleasure to read. With no offense or judgment intended, I'd rather not see Debian's mud at our door. The reason we left was to get away from it. Devuan does not need to justify its own existence. "Debian's mud at our door"? "The reason we left"? With all due respect and no judgement intended, your sudden use of the royal "We" on this list is quite surprising, especially since about three weeks ago you wrote the following comments, which strikingly resemble to what can be read on Poettering's blog, which is being copy&pasted around the web by many well-disguised "Yes-Men": Funny thing. I hear a lot of complaining about systemd, and yes, i think some of it is justified, but consider this... Rather than joining the project and steering it in another direction, or creating patches to fix what you do not like, everyone is just standing about complaining. (...) The reality is that no matter what anyone does, systemd is here to stay (...) There is no escaping this fact of life. Linux as an OS is developed in a hodgepodge of distributions. The reason systemd has found such wide adoption is that it simplifies their work. Quite frankly, it sounds like you're actually trying to *pose* as a Devuan supporter, which you seem not to be. The reality is that Linux is a mean-spirited, ugly camel with the number of humps chosen by committee. For all of that, it is rather endearing - because you can make of it what you will. No one can charge you in court or judge less of your character for doing your own thing. This one seems to have been inspired by Microsoft's ancient anti-Linux FUD marketing campaign - you know, the one with a long-proboscized monster-penguin. However, let's paraphrase it: of course "Linux" is free software released under the GPL and similar licenses, therefore "you can make of it what you will"... unless "somebody" manages to nail it down through some subtle and nasty agenda which makes said licenses useless. I've had Debian, RedHat, and just about every major distribution grace my system at some point. With every single one of them, without exception, has had issues of some kind or another. Some of which were major showstoppers. Some didn't even boot, others were so poorly assembled that you'd think the packagers were drunken monkeys. Unfortunately I cannot brag such a catastrophic experience with Linux distributions myself, but that's probably my fault. Anyway, your comment sounds like yet another iteration of the "Linux is broken" mantra, hence I encourage you to jump on (or return to) the Grand Unifying Init System bandwagon. All of this started long before systemd was ever created, and will certainly be around long after systemd is forgotten. Yeah. However, this is (again) just another way to say "That's the way it is", or "So goes the world", while dismissing specific problems by pushing them inside the foggy and much undetermined concept of "life". Philip ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
I have a remark on dmenu. It might be a practical way to achieve #2 for all desktop environment in a uniform way. But in a desktop environment like XFCE and heavier ones there are alternatives which might integrate better in its desktop environment and look prettier. For example in XFCE you could replace the Application Menu with Whiskermenu and bind it to the left or right Super key in the Application Shortcuts Settings. Apart from feature #2 whiskermenu also shows the most used applications immediately which is quite useful too. That is my opinion. Some other XFCE users might prefer the classical XFCE application menu. -- wolfgang On 2015-02-28 18:02, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 15:00:01 -0500 Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > On 02/22/2015 07:38 PM, Jaromil wrote: > > dear Jonathan, > > > > you have very good concerns on usability. After Devuan 1.0 we might > > be able to quick fix desktop behaviour, I bet many developers > > involved will go do respins and blends. > > > > however, for what concerns us here and at least until the Devuan 1.0 > > release (which is a base system) you might have more chances > > interacting with the XFCE and the Mate projects, which are the main > > desktop environments Devuan offers on liveboot/install and are used > > by many other distributions. This way your contribution would have > > also a broader reach. > > Ok, that sounds like a plan. > > But which is the default DE for Devuan-- XFCE or Mate? I don't think it matters. I see four kinds of DEs: 1) No panel (Openbox et al) 2) Panel (Xfce, Lxde, JWM, et al) 3) Inclusion of human ambiguities (Gnome, Unity) 4) Bloatware (KDE, Gnome, Unity) I'm pretty sure Network Manager would work fine with 2, 3 and 4. Wicd works fine with all 4. The thing I'm proposing would work fine with all four, and would depend only on the wpa_supplicant family and whatever GUI dependencies the GUI version decided to incorporate. > > Also, I'll respond below to Steve (I can't find his message so I just > pasted it from the list archive...) > > >On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 20:11:12 + (UTC) > >Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > >Hi Jonathan, > > >I rearranged the order of your post... > / > >> > >> Anyhow, if any of those three are missing under the planned > >> system, I'd be happy to help try to rectify the situation. / > > >That's supremely cool. Discoverability is *everything*!!! > > Hi Steve, > I think discoverability is everything, too. But I'd like to > differentiate discoverability > from "re-discoverability", which is what you get everytime Gnome 3 > changes its design-mind, or when Yahoo Mail feels like their > interface isn't cool enough. Yes. Please modify my statement to incorporate your preceding sentence. > > I picked these three features because I don't think they are overly > complex, That's for sure. #1 is a fairly easy set of shellscripts, perhaps front-ended by whatever. #2 is dmenu plus a hotkey, and #3 is just a hotkey. > and > they should be able to provide a decent and stable experience for a > decade or > more into the future. wpa_supplicant doesn't change much, so I'd imagine only the networking GUI front end would be subject to change. > / > >> Hello,A few questions about the GUI for Devuan... > >> 1) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, will there be an > >> icon or other discoverable item the user can click to see a list > >> of available wifi network connections?/ > > >I can do a lot of the non-gui stuff on this, should we decide that > >NetworkManager and Wicd aren't sufficient. > > >Basically, "iwlist scanning" yields the list, complete with > >everything needed to show the security type and signal strength. > >wpa-supplicant and the *horribly documented* wpa_cli to make and > >break connections and handle passwords. > > >I'd envision this as a python-Tk program (connection time is huge > >compared to executation time, so performance isn't an issue). > >There's no reason for this system to use dbus. > > A few questions: > * I've read about network manager being designed so that multiple > front-ends can > be used. But is the opposite possible? Is there a way to take > network manager applet's > taskbar dropdown list GUI and use that front-end on something else? I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, > * if not, would pyqt be a possibility? Tk is of course super-easy to > incrementally develop, > but it's missing crucial elements like theming, native dialogs, and a > slew of other stuff that > becomes a brick-wall if you want anything more than a > minimally-working GUI. / Everything you say in the preceding paragraph is true. I'll just give you an API, and you can hook any front end technology to it. However... My way of thinking is this: The less dependency, the better. If *I* were programming the front end, I'd use the least dependency encumbered GUI lib I could, and that wouldn't be Qt. But of course, the beauty of my giving
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
> > > I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, > > > > Dbus is just the mechanism other programs use to interact with NM. > > If you were to carve out the dbus API from NM, it would still manage > > your network as before, but you'd need to add a different way to > > control it. > > For me it would be easier to build something simple from scratch than > rip out and replace other peoples' code from something unfamiliar to me. i think the implied message was that dbus is merely an IPC mechanism and removing would simply result in replacing it with another and thus a (mostly) moot point. --Gravis On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:34:37 -0500 > Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, > > > > Dbus is just the mechanism other programs use to interact with NM. > > If you were to carve out the dbus API from NM, it would still manage > > your network as before, but you'd need to add a different way to > > control it. > > > > -Jude > > :-) > > For me it would be easier to build something simple from scratch than > rip out and replace other peoples' code from something unfamiliar to me. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 21:04:06 +0100 Wolfgang Pirker wrote: > Some other XFCE users might prefer the classical > XFCE application menu. I do ;-3) Cheers, Ron. -- Women should be obscene and not absurd. -- Groucho Marx -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:40:41PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 21:04:06 +0100 > Wolfgang Pirker wrote: > > > Some other XFCE users might prefer the classical > > XFCE application menu. > > I do ;-3) And leaving the code as-is might be the faster way to get to Devuan 1.0. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Fri, 2015-02-27 at 23:38 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > Bottom line is this: If you make a modular system with thin interfaces > and sane components, somebody will make a block diagram representing it, > accurately, in its entirety. > > It could be argued that the email, sockets, and djb software systems I > diagrammed were much simpler than systemd. Fair enough, but I'm one guy > doing this stuff in my spare time, not six guys getting paid full time > by Red Hat. I'm sure one of the geniuses Red Hat hired could have > diagrammed system accurately and completely. Heck, I often do that > *before* I write software, just so the system turns out architecturally > sound. > > Let's see the block diagram. Prove systemd doesn't have grave > architectural problems. > You misunderstand me, Steve. I have no problem with you or anyone else blasting systemd to your heart's contentment. As long as you personally believe that it is justified, then by all means: go for it! If you are asking for my consensus, I will say that I agree, systemd is poorly designed. I don't think that invalidates the principles behind it, but the reality is that my opinion does not matter. What I am suggesting is that Devuan made the decision to step away from Debian over the issue of systemd. My suggestion was that it is best to just move on rather link Debian messages back here to restart the debate. For all the time and energy put into the discussion, what does anyone get out of it anyway? When I say this it is not a criticism of you or anyone else in particular, but Linux as a community has a long and storied history of continuously latching on to some hack-knee idea and then to beating it to death. When the whole community gets up in arms, rather than actually deal with the problem straightaway, they stand around and bitch about it - sometimes for years. Whatever happens to be the most convenient at the time is what they will usually do. In the 90's, it was Qt. A solution was proposed, a new library called Harmony which would be API compatible with Qt. I know, because I was there and offered to help work on it. The project came to nothing because no one wanted to organize a real effort. Part of the problem was that the KDE team was actively patching and extending Qt extensively so that it would actually be useable, and so that is where their interest was. Without KDE, Qt would not be what it is today. Of course, later Qt was released, and the uproar settled down. Systemd is in many ways a similar problem. Someone hacked together alternative solution to init, and seeing a way of easing the process of building a distribution, people latched on it. All the sudden another uproar ensues, with many of the same statements that were used on Qt, ie that something we do not like is "getting shoved down our collective throats" in spite of the fact that no one is forcing anyone to use it, nor stopping them from forking whatever they wish. You'll have to excuse me if I seem jaded after all these years. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 21:03 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote: > > I wouldn't call "personality clash" the case of a user having specific > problems > with systemd's networking tentacles on Debian Jessie, don't you think? Actually, yes I would call it a personality problem, but only because I have seen them before. No offense. As for systemd having "tentacles", there is certainly truth to that, but then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted so far into "standard" distributions that it is hard to extract them. Ultimately, the whole problem revolves around the idea of packaging. Personally, I've come to believe that the existing idea of package management is more damaging to Linux than systemd itself. If the Debian packaging system separated the actual init files from binary package files, then majority of developers making Jesse packages that assume systemd rather than System 5 would be non-issue. > Anyway, > I guess that far from focusing on subjective topics, DeVuan is forking > DeBian > itself right now, while encouraging objective and balanced discussion, > which > is welcome and a pleasure to read. *Nod* Fair enough, Philip. Who am I to say it does not have entertainment value? > > Quite frankly, it sounds like you're actually trying to *pose* as a > Devuan > supporter, which you seem not to be. Rest assured that I wouldn't be here if I didn't think Devuan was worthwhile. As a person who has written C code and used Unixes for about 20+ years, I see some technical benefit in systemd's approach. Just because systemd itself has design flaws does not mean the entire concept is bad. The fact that I come right out and say so, even if it just happens to go against the majority sensibility is: with blunt honestly, not my problem. I'm not really looking for a debate on the topic, because in the grand scheme of things my opinion does not amount to much, really. Nor should it. You should always make up your own mind. If you'd rather not hear it, I can certainly go elsewhere or refrain from posting, but I personally do not believe that Devuan needs "yes men" (or yes-women). > > > The reality is that Linux is a mean-spirited, ugly camel with the > > number > > of humps chosen by committee. For all of that, it is rather endearing > > - > > because you can make of it what you will. No one can charge you in > > court > > or judge less of your character for doing your own thing. > > This one seems to have been inspired by Microsoft's ancient anti-Linux > FUD > marketing campaign - you know, the one with a long-proboscized > monster-penguin. Not at all. It is simply a comment on the collective nature of Linux. Sometimes design by committee is not the best approach. That's simply life. That I call Linux a "Linux is a mean-spirited, ugly camel with the number of humps chosen by committee" but "endearing" at the same time is nothing more than a recognition that it has flaws. There are precisely zero perfect software projects in the world. Having had this much time in the field, I simply have no illusions about it is all, and I feel free to say so. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it hardly seems a secret to me. Have a great day, Philip! =) t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Feb 28, 2015 5:17 PM, "Hendrik Boom" wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:40:41PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > > On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 21:04:06 +0100 > > Wolfgang Pirker wrote: > > > > > Some other XFCE users might prefer the classical > > > XFCE application menu. > > > > I do ;-3) > > And leaving the code as-is might be the faster way to get to Devuan 1.0. > > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Which seems a worthwhile goal for Devuan today. All these other interesting ideas will be great fun once we have workable, usable basic distro to install and use, without systemd. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
* On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > As for systemd having "tentacles", there is certainly truth to that, but > then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted > so far into "standard" distributions that it is hard to extract them. With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate policy. They are tools a programmer uses to solve a problem which parallels your point that systemd is a tool for distributions, but yet it is seeking to impose a policy many of us dislike, especially going forward. Debian users are a bit insulated at the moment as the freeze is keeping systemd at a given version. Its tentacles extend even further in later versions, AIUI. Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start throwing around the term "haters" whenever someone sets out to compile from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? systemd strongly reflects the personality of its developers. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it unique, but it's the first time I recall a lead developer being so outspoken since the CDR tools guy was routed around by Debian and others. Personally, the existence of systemd is fine if that is what an admin or user or distribution finds useful. Debian made its choice and after looking at it for a while I don't want to continue down that road. That doesn't make me a hater, I prefer the term discerning. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:47:03 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:40:41PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > > On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 21:04:06 +0100 > > Wolfgang Pirker wrote: > > > > > Some other XFCE users might prefer the classical > > > XFCE application menu. > > > > I do ;-3) > > And leaving the code as-is might be the faster way to get to Devuan > 1.0. And... Leaving the classical menu intact in no way interferes with somebody *also* using dmenu, available at a single hotkey. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:50:56 -0600 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > On Fri, 2015-02-27 at 23:38 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > Bottom line is this: If you make a modular system with thin > > interfaces and sane components, somebody will make a block diagram > > representing it, accurately, in its entirety. [clip] > > Let's see the block diagram. Prove systemd doesn't have grave > > architectural problems. > > > > You misunderstand me, Steve. > > I have no problem with you or anyone else blasting systemd to your > heart's contentment. [clip] > What I am suggesting is that Devuan made the decision to step away > from Debian over the issue of systemd. My suggestion was that it is > best to just move on rather link Debian messages back here to restart > the debate. For all the time and energy put into the discussion, what > does anyone get out of it anyway? Oh! Thaaat's what you're saying. You were right, I certainly misunderstood you, I thought that you were arguing, on this list, that systemd really isn't that bad, and I argued against what I thought was your position. Reading this post, I agree with everything you say above (even the stuff I clipped). Yes! Removing systemd is settled law in Devuan land, and as such, it's kind of silly to revisit pro and anti-systemd arguments on this particular list. Makes perfect sense. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel?
On Sat, 2/28/15, Go Linux wrote: Subject: What if systemd infects the kernel? To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, February 28, 2015, 1:05 AM I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. Recently there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. But I'm not quite clear how that would affect devuan. Hoping you can help me get a grip on the situation: Would a systemd-infected kernel bring devuan to its knees? IOW will devuan require a systemd-free kernel to run properly? Would the VUAs be able to disinfect the kernel? Or is that something that would have to go through Linus? Is there any chance that the kernel devs would be willing to maintain two separate kernel versions? Or will devuan be up a creek if/when that happens? I'm assuming the VUAs have thought about this - I can't imagine they would they be going through this monumental effort only to be foiled by a systemd kernel - and that there is a solution. Please enlighten me. :) golinux Either this is an incredibly stupid question or it's the elephant in the room. Why not one response? This inquiring mind would like to know. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] pre-alpha live iso
fsmithred over at Refracta created a live iso of the valentine's pre-alpha with refractasnapshot. He said I could post a link here for those who want to check it out but don't want to install. http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/other/ It booted just fine but as previously noted there are difficulties mounting other partitions. Neither are the reboot/shutdown options in the logout dialog functional - I had to exit via terminal. Synaptic wouldn't launch from the menu but would from cli. No graphical browser was available and w3m just doesn't cut it IMO. You may need to add the jessie repos to sources.list. My download didn't have it in there but it might be in there now. I didn't play with it for long because it was late and I was tired. But at least I could get a peek which was very nice indeed. Thanks fsmithred! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel?
* On 2015 28 Feb 19:09 -0600, Go Linux wrote: > > > Either this is an incredibly stupid question or it's the elephant in > the room. Why not one response? This inquiring mind would like to > know. > > golinux Actually, it's a good question and some food for thought. I think the proper answer right now is that no one knows and "it depends". No one really knows, outside of the systemd cabal and a few kernel developers, just how it may fit into the rest of the kernel. Many features in the kernel are compile time options and my guess is that kbus would be no different, this is also the "it depends" part. Note that I haven't configured and built a kernel in a number of years--most likely the 2.4 days or early 2.6 days at the latest. At that time it seemed like it was a task for Someone Who Knows What They Are Doing. I can't imagine that it has gotten any less complex in the interim. The question is whether the cabal would demand that kbus not be an compile time option and require it be in every kernel build. Certainly, there would seem to be many objections for that to be accepted by Linus. I may be wrong but I don't see Linus allowing the kernel to depend on the presence of kdbus internally. Just my uninformed thoughts. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel?
> I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel > since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. a huge reason for it's rejection was it's lack of documentation. this situation hasnt changed much in regard to kdbus. > Recently there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. it's extremely unlikely. however, if for some reason it does, it can be excluded if one chooses to exclude it. some of the stuff written for kdbus actually has been accepted (about six months ago), in particular the sealed memory file descriptor stuff. this actually is good code and is the reason that kdbus has zero copy. with this, we can now use unix domain sockets to pass memory with the same zero copy goodness as kdbus. the question remains now is what good is the rest of kdbus? since the documentation is lacking, we dont know and thus it's not getting into the kernel. if kdbus eventually gets into the kernel, it will have been well inspected and reviewed and deemed worthy of inclusion. this is the complete opposite of how systemd has been operating. > Why not one response? probably because gmail (among other services) is automatically marking your emails as spam since they are claimed to have been sent _by_ yahoo's server but yahoo's server is denying it. either you are not using yahoo's server to actually send your emails or the mailing list server is misconfigured. --Gravis On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Go Linux wrote: > On Sat, 2/28/15, Go Linux wrote: > > Subject: What if systemd infects the kernel? > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Saturday, February 28, 2015, 1:05 AM > > I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel > since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. Recently > there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. But I'm not quite > clear how that would affect devuan. Hoping you can help me get a grip on the > situation: > > Would a systemd-infected kernel bring devuan to its knees? > > IOW will devuan require a systemd-free kernel to run properly? > > Would the VUAs be able to disinfect the kernel? Or is that something that > would have to go through Linus? > > Is there any chance that the kernel devs would be willing to maintain two > separate kernel versions? > > Or will devuan be up a creek if/when that happens? > > I'm assuming the VUAs have thought about this - I can't imagine they would > they be going through this monumental effort only to be foiled by a systemd > kernel - and that there is a solution. Please enlighten me. :) > > golinux > > > > > Either this is an incredibly stupid question or it's the elephant in the > room. Why not one response? This inquiring mind would like to know. > > golinux > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C > and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate > policy. I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires the C library for the OS to function on the most basic level, not to mention that the kernel, Perl and Python are actually written in C. My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd is. You can't get rid of them, without pulling a DIY. Linux as a platform does not require them to function. What makes it relevant to the conversation is that it is all about attitude. They are enthusiastically endorsed by communities that refuse to acknowledge that either can be as much of a hindrance as a help in many cases. For example, Python as a programming language is designed specifically to dictate how you do things, i.e. Zen of Python: "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." Sometimes Linux can be its own worst enemy. > Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such > as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start > throwing around the term "haters" whenever someone sets out to compile > from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? There is some truth to that, but you can revisit that virtually anywhere there are fanboys/fangirls. The fact that few authors like LP can use the term "haters" to divert attention from the real issues, and then get a free pass just shows how easily the issue has polarized others and how easily the "sheeple" are manipulated into going along. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
> My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > is. You can't get rid of them this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference would be to make a standard POSIX base to build upon. the LSB is a bad joke. --Gravis On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:49 PM, T.J. Duchene wrote: > On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > >> >> With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C >> and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate >> policy. > > I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires > the C library for the OS to function on the most basic level, not to > mention that the kernel, Perl and Python are actually written in C. > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > is. You can't get rid of them, without pulling a DIY. Linux as a > platform does not require them to function. > > What makes it relevant to the conversation is that it is all about > attitude. They are enthusiastically endorsed by communities that refuse > to acknowledge that either can be as much of a hindrance as a help in > many cases. For example, Python as a programming language is designed > specifically to dictate how you do things, i.e. Zen of Python: "There > should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." > > Sometimes Linux can be its own worst enemy. > > >> Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such >> as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start >> throwing around the term "haters" whenever someone sets out to compile >> from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? > > There is some truth to that, but you can revisit that virtually anywhere > there are fanboys/fangirls. The fact that few authors like LP can use > the term "haters" to divert attention from the real issues, and then get > a free pass just shows how easily the issue has polarized others and how > easily the "sheeple" are manipulated into going along. > > t.j. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Can't hit Internet from Valentines
Hi all, I installed Valentines according to instructions, a few weeks ago. It worked, but I don't remember whether I tested getting to the Internet at that time. Now, I do this: qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -hda /scratch/devuan_disk -boot c -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime ping 8.8.8.8 (Google's DNS) loses all packets. Here's my route command and ifconfig eth0, performed as root: root@devuan:~# route Kernel IP routing table Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric RefUse Iface default 10.0.2.20.0.0.0 UG1024 00 eth0 10.0.2.0* 255.255.255.0 U 0 00 eth0 root@devuan:~# ifconfig eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 52:54:00:12:34:56 inet addr:10.0.2.15 Bcast:10.0.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 inet6 addr: fe80::5054:ff:fe12:3456/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:105 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:113 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:11041 (10.7 KiB) TX bytes:16236 (15.8 KiB) loLink encap:Local Loopback inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:65536 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:0 (0.0 B) TX bytes:0 (0.0 B) root@devuan:~# cat /etc/resolv.conf # Generated by NetworkManager nameserver 10.0.2.3 root@devuan:~# It hangs when I ping known good Google public DNS 8.8.8.8. How do I narrow this down? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel?
> I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. Recently there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. But I'm not quite clear how that would affect devuan. Hoping you can help me get a grip on the situation: As far as I know, systemd is *not* getting merged into the kernel. It's not even being *considered* for merging. Linus was mad at Kay Sievers for something completely unrelated. Kay had introduced a regression in udev that could cause it to hang due to the way it handled a driver's request for firmware (until the kernel timed the firmware request out after 30 seconds). Instead of fixing the regression (and it was a regression--he was using the *well documented* firmware loader *incorrectly*), he went on to suggest that the kernel developers were at fault for the situation by designing Linux's firmware loader the way they did, instead of fixing the problem he created. The rest is history. As I said in another thread, kdbus as it is incarnated today (and this is subject to change--it's been pretty much re-written each time Greg KH has submitted it to lkml) requires some userspace help in setting it up. This is only necessary if your kernel has kdbus and you have programs that want to use it. kdbus by itself is just another way to move bytes between processes, and it offers some semantics that aren't found in other existing IPC mechanisms. It is *not at all* like dbus, any more than a UNIX domain socket is like dbus or a pipe is like dbus. The only thing kdbus has in common with dbus is that it shares part of the name. -Jude On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:03 PM, Gravis wrote: > > I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel > since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. > > a huge reason for it's rejection was it's lack of documentation. this > situation hasnt changed much in regard to kdbus. > > > > Recently there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. > > it's extremely unlikely. however, if for some reason it does, it can > be excluded if one chooses to exclude it. some of the stuff written > for kdbus actually has been accepted (about six months ago), in > particular the sealed memory file descriptor stuff. this actually is > good code and is the reason that kdbus has zero copy. with this, we > can now use unix domain sockets to pass memory with the same zero copy > goodness as kdbus. the question remains now is what good is the rest > of kdbus? since the documentation is lacking, we dont know and thus > it's not getting into the kernel. if kdbus eventually gets into the > kernel, it will have been well inspected and reviewed and deemed > worthy of inclusion. this is the complete opposite of how systemd has > been operating. > > > > Why not one response? > > probably because gmail (among other services) is automatically marking > your emails as spam since they are claimed to have been sent _by_ > yahoo's server but yahoo's server is denying it. either you are not > using yahoo's server to actually send your emails or the mailing list > server is misconfigured. > > --Gravis > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Go Linux wrote: > > On Sat, 2/28/15, Go Linux wrote: > > > > Subject: What if systemd infects the kernel? > > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > > Date: Saturday, February 28, 2015, 1:05 AM > > > > I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel > since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. Recently > there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. But I'm not quite > clear how that would affect devuan. Hoping you can help me get a grip on > the situation: > > > > Would a systemd-infected kernel bring devuan to its knees? > > > > IOW will devuan require a systemd-free kernel to run properly? > > > > Would the VUAs be able to disinfect the kernel? Or is that something > that would have to go through Linus? > > > > Is there any chance that the kernel devs would be willing to maintain > two separate kernel versions? > > > > Or will devuan be up a creek if/when that happens? > > > > I'm assuming the VUAs have thought about this - I can't imagine they > would they be going through this monumental effort only to be foiled by a > systemd kernel - and that there is a solution. Please enlighten me. :) > > > > golinux > > > > > > > > > > Either this is an incredibly stupid question or it's the elephant in the > room. Why not one response? This inquiring mind would like to know. > > > > golinux > > > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >
Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel?
On Sat, 2/28/15, Gravis wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel? To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Date: Saturday, February 28, 2015, 10:03 PM >> Why not one response? > > probably because gmail (among other services) is automatically marking > your emails as spam since they are claimed to have been sent _by_ > yahoo's server but yahoo's server is denying it. either you are not > using yahoo's server to actually send your emails or the mailing list > server is misconfigured. > > --Gravis I use Yahoo's webmail interface. I regularly get nasty messages from the dyne mail server. Sometimes I even have to re-enable my account but to date, it hasn't denied me access. :) Note to list members: Check you email for misdirected dng mail! I often find email from the list in there. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Can't hit Internet from Valentines
now we're tech support? remove "-net nic -net user" (works for me) --Gravis On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 12:19 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I installed Valentines according to instructions, a few weeks ago. It > worked, but I don't remember whether I tested getting to the Internet > at that time. > > Now, I do this: > > qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -hda /scratch/devuan_disk -boot c -net > nic -net user -m 256 -localtime > > ping 8.8.8.8 (Google's DNS) loses all packets. Here's my route command > and ifconfig eth0, performed as root: > > root@devuan:~# route > Kernel IP routing table > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric RefUse > Iface > default 10.0.2.20.0.0.0 UG1024 00 > eth0 > 10.0.2.0* 255.255.255.0 U 0 00 > eth0 > root@devuan:~# ifconfig > eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 52:54:00:12:34:56 > inet addr:10.0.2.15 Bcast:10.0.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 > inet6 addr: fe80::5054:ff:fe12:3456/64 Scope:Link > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:105 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:113 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 > RX bytes:11041 (10.7 KiB) TX bytes:16236 (15.8 KiB) > > loLink encap:Local Loopback > inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 > inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host > UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:65536 Metric:1 > RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 > RX bytes:0 (0.0 B) TX bytes:0 (0.0 B) > root@devuan:~# cat /etc/resolv.conf > # Generated by NetworkManager > nameserver 10.0.2.3 > root@devuan:~# > > > It hangs when I ping known good Google public DNS 8.8.8.8. > > How do I narrow this down? > > Thanks, > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > > is. You can't get rid of them Having them don't cost much, IMO. A lot of the Debian infrastructure is written in perl. In Gobo Linux, the system administration software is written in shell. Utility for administrating Nix are written in Nix language. > this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference > would be to make a standard POSIX base to build upon. the LSB is a > bad joke. As a basis for building Linux distributions? You may look into Automated Linux from Scratch http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/ cheers > --Gravis > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:49 PM, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > > >> > >> With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C > >> and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate > >> policy. > > > > I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires > > the C library for the OS to function on the most basic level, not to > > mention that the kernel, Perl and Python are actually written in C. > > > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > > is. You can't get rid of them, without pulling a DIY. Linux as a > > platform does not require them to function. > > > > What makes it relevant to the conversation is that it is all about > > attitude. They are enthusiastically endorsed by communities that refuse > > to acknowledge that either can be as much of a hindrance as a help in > > many cases. For example, Python as a programming language is designed > > specifically to dictate how you do things, i.e. Zen of Python: "There > > should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." > > > > Sometimes Linux can be its own worst enemy. > > > > > >> Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such > >> as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start > >> throwing around the term "haters" whenever someone sets out to compile > >> from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? > > > > There is some truth to that, but you can revisit that virtually anywhere > > there are fanboys/fangirls. The fact that few authors like LP can use > > the term "haters" to divert attention from the real issues, and then get > > a free pass just shows how easily the issue has polarized others and how > > easily the "sheeple" are manipulated into going along. > > > > t.j. > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 08:18:59PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > > > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > > > is. You can't get rid of them > > Having them don't cost much, IMO. > > A lot of the Debian infrastructure is written in perl. In > Gobo Linux, the system administration software is written in > shell. Utility for administrating Nix are written in Nix language. > > > this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference > > would be to make a standard POSIX base to build upon. the LSB is a > > bad joke. > > As a basis for building Linux distributions? > You may look into Automated Linux from Scratch > > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/ And interesting to find that the LFS "books" exist in regular and systemd flavors. http://wiki.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/wiki/SupportedBooks The jalfs software hasn't been undated changed since 2009, however the LFS books are current. > cheers > > > --Gravis > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:49 PM, T.J. Duchene > > wrote: > > > On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C > > >> and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate > > >> policy. > > > > > > I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires > > > the C library for the OS to function on the most basic level, not to > > > mention that the kernel, Perl and Python are actually written in C. > > > > > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > > > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > > > is. You can't get rid of them, without pulling a DIY. Linux as a > > > platform does not require them to function. > > > > > > What makes it relevant to the conversation is that it is all about > > > attitude. They are enthusiastically endorsed by communities that refuse > > > to acknowledge that either can be as much of a hindrance as a help in > > > many cases. For example, Python as a programming language is designed > > > specifically to dictate how you do things, i.e. Zen of Python: "There > > > should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." > > > > > > Sometimes Linux can be its own worst enemy. > > > > > > > > >> Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such > > >> as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start > > >> throwing around the term "haters" whenever someone sets out to compile > > >> from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? > > > > > > There is some truth to that, but you can revisit that virtually anywhere > > > there are fanboys/fangirls. The fact that few authors like LP can use > > > the term "haters" to divert attention from the real issues, and then get > > > a free pass just shows how easily the issue has polarized others and how > > > easily the "sheeple" are manipulated into going along. > > > > > > t.j. > > > > > > ___ > > > Dng mailing list > > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > -- > Joel Roth > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
> Having [perl and python] doesn't cost much, IMO. this is true however, you only need a single deep-seeded flaw to exploit an entire system when it comes to scripting. for further reading, see bash. --Gravis On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Joel Roth wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote: >> > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in >> > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd >> > is. You can't get rid of them > > Having them don't cost much, IMO. > > A lot of the Debian infrastructure is written in perl. In > Gobo Linux, the system administration software is written in > shell. Utility for administrating Nix are written in Nix language. > >> this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference >> would be to make a standard POSIX base to build upon. the LSB is a >> bad joke. > > As a basis for building Linux distributions? > You may look into Automated Linux from Scratch > > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/ > > cheers > >> --Gravis > > > > > > >> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:49 PM, T.J. Duchene wrote: >> > On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C >> >> and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate >> >> policy. >> > >> > I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires >> > the C library for the OS to function on the most basic level, not to >> > mention that the kernel, Perl and Python are actually written in C. >> > >> > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in >> > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd >> > is. You can't get rid of them, without pulling a DIY. Linux as a >> > platform does not require them to function. >> > >> > What makes it relevant to the conversation is that it is all about >> > attitude. They are enthusiastically endorsed by communities that refuse >> > to acknowledge that either can be as much of a hindrance as a help in >> > many cases. For example, Python as a programming language is designed >> > specifically to dictate how you do things, i.e. Zen of Python: "There >> > should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." >> > >> > Sometimes Linux can be its own worst enemy. >> > >> > >> >> Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such >> >> as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start >> >> throwing around the term "haters" whenever someone sets out to compile >> >> from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? >> > >> > There is some truth to that, but you can revisit that virtually anywhere >> > there are fanboys/fangirls. The fact that few authors like LP can use >> > the term "haters" to divert attention from the real issues, and then get >> > a free pass just shows how easily the issue has polarized others and how >> > easily the "sheeple" are manipulated into going along. >> > >> > t.j. >> > >> > ___ >> > Dng mailing list >> > Dng@lists.dyne.org >> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > -- > Joel Roth > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
