[Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
Could you please revive bastille linux for devuan. It's an essential hardining script and it is unlikely anyone will have a secure system without it. For some reason on the newer debian 7s it does not run (is this by design?) On the older debian 7s it runs fine. Debian removed it around the time they had the 2 year ssh "bug" (ie: intentional redesign of SSH's random num generator by an idiot package maintaine or plant). Why? Who knows, it still worked fine then... but you know if something doesn't get updates, if that thing is FINISHED.. well then it gets kicked out of Debian by the faggots/enemies. (Same thing with SysV: no updates for years: DEPPPREEECIATEEEDD!!) Seems like EVERYTHING is being torpedoed. Can you de-orphan this script please. http://bastille-linux.sourceforge.net/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/bastille-linux/ You can get a deb from here: http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/b/bastille/ Another thing essential for security is the grsecurity patch to the kernel. Has debian ever packaged it. No. MANDRAKE Linux packaged it (as hardedned kernel) in 2001. Easy to use friendly distro packaged it even, but a serious distro, for somereason no. Debian is compromised. (Even the wikileaks founder knows that) _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. anyway, i looked at Bastille and it's a highly tweaked script and headed toward being a decade out of date. frankly i'm not surprised it was dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille script is off mark. --Gravis On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Usspookes Lovesystemd wrote: > Could you please revive bastille linux for devuan. It's an essential hardining > script and it is unlikely anyone will have a secure system without it. > For some reason on the newer debian 7s it does not run (is this by design?) > On the older debian 7s it runs fine. > > Debian removed it around the time they had the 2 year ssh "bug" (ie: > intentional > redesign of SSH's random num generator by an idiot package maintaine or > plant). > Why? Who knows, it still worked fine then... > but you know if something doesn't get updates, > if that thing is FINISHED.. well then it gets kicked out > of Debian by the faggots/enemies. > > (Same thing with SysV: no updates for years: DEPPPREEECIATEEEDD!!) > > Seems like EVERYTHING is being torpedoed. > > Can you de-orphan this script please. > > http://bastille-linux.sourceforge.net/ > http://sourceforge.net/projects/bastille-linux/ > You can get a deb from here: > http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/b/bastille/ > > Another thing essential for security is the grsecurity patch to the kernel. > Has debian ever packaged it. No. > MANDRAKE Linux packaged it (as hardedned kernel) in 2001. > Easy to use friendly distro packaged it even, but a serious distro, for > somereason > no. > Debian is compromised. > (Even the wikileaks founder knows that) > > > _ > The Free Email with so much more! > => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
On Wed, 2/11/15, Gravis wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2015, 7:55 AM > wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. > > anyway, i looked at Bastille > and it's a highly tweaked script and > headed toward being a decade out of date. > frankly i'm not surprised it was > dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille > script is off mark. > --Gravis Not a first post. It's just Gregory Smith AGAIN with a new email address. His posts are always highly offensive. This one is PG13 compared to some I've seen. I confident the admins will deal with it. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kali Linux has systemd?
On 10/02/15 11:34 PM, Ed Ender wrote: On 2015-02-10 19:52, Wim wrote: Hi, Mark inquired about the source of my info on kali. I just saw kali on the list at: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Operating_systems_without_systemd_in_the_default_installation Decided to do some research. Apparently, systemd is already present in the latest kali 1.0.9: https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?24275-Ran-updates-and-now-no-GUI-at-all https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?23603-About-Kali-Linux-and-systemd It appears the list isn't up-to-date and they should take kali off. Cheers, Wim I have removed Kali from the wiki since I put it there. But.. I have Kali 1.1.0 (2015-02-09) and can't find systemd in it. I have apt-get updated & upgraded. Using [find / -name systemd*] I have found 2 folders & 1 file: /etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/share/gnome-shell/js/gdm/systemd.js And noticed sysvinit at boot. Can you confirm that systemd is installed in your installation? And if so, how you got it? ___ I have Kali here and it has libsystemd-daemon0 and libsystemd-login0. This is a several times over dist-upgrade and not a new install. I find it conceivable that a new install might install the whole mess, just as a new install of Debian stable and backports will. Kali is after all Debian 7 with mods and apps added. IMHO Kali would benefit from getting clear of the choking, restricted carapace of systemd and make a switch to Devuan when it becomes available. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan Could you please revive bastille linux for devuan. It's an essential hardining script and it is unlikely anyone will have a secure system without it. For some reason on the newer debian 7s it does not run (is this by design?) On the older debian 7s it runs fine. Debian removed it around the time they had the 2 year ssh "bug" (ie: intentional redesign of SSH's random num generator by an idiot package maintaine or plant). Why? Who knows, it still worked fine then... but you know if something doesn't get updates, if that thing is FINISHED.. well then it gets kicked out of Debian by the fgts/enemies. (Same thing with SysV: no updates for years: DEPPPREEECIATEEEDD!!) Seems like EVERYTHING is being torpedoed. Can you de-orphan this script please. Another thing essential for security is the grsecurity patch to the kernel. Has debian ever packaged it. No. MANDRAKE Linux packaged it (as hardedned kernel) in 2001. Easy to use friendly distro packaged it even, but a serious distro, for somereason no. Debian is compromised. (Even the wikileaks founder knows that) --- goli...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Go Linux To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" , Gravis Subject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 06:38:59 -0800 On Wed, 2/11/15, Gravis wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2015, 7:55 AM > wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. > > anyway, i looked at Bastille > and it's a highly tweaked script and > headed toward being a decade out of date. > frankly i'm not surprised it was > dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille > script is off mark. > --Gravis Not a first post. It's just Gregory Smith AGAIN with a new email address. His posts are always highly offensive. This one is PG13 compared to some I've seen. I confident the admins will deal with it. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Decade out of date?
Decade out of date? SysV is 3 decades "out of date" Unix is 4 decades "out of date" Please explain to me how the bastille script is "out of date", and why that is bad. Slackware, a great distribution, is similarly out of date. Anything not using systemd (that trash) is out of date. Why don't you slink back to debian if your argument is X is "out of date" because it doesn't do things the new overcomplicated and shitty way? Ok. Why don't you FUCKING do that? Why are you here even? Also do you quit your job before you get a new one you stupid piece of shit? No. There is NO replacement for bastille (other than doing all it does by hand: the point of it is that it does it and you thusly don't miss anything). I bet that is by design. Are you people ever going to produce anything btw or are you just all fucking talk? GoLinux: Fuck you. FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU. Remeber when the VUA guys cited my post months ago. Bet you don't like that in retrospect. As for "dealing with me" I hope someone "deals" with you. FUCK YOU. Also nice appeal to authority you pro-feminist piece of filth. I really hope you are killed before your time. _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
2012 is a "Decade" out of date? What the FUCK are you smoking you piece of shit. SysV is 3 decades "out of date" Unix is 4. Do you quit your job before you have a new one lined up? Do you you fucking retarded piece of shit. I bet you create about as much as devuan has thusfar (sadly NOTHING). --- rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: From: Gravis To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Subject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 08:55:07 -0500 wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. anyway, i looked at Bastille and it's a highly tweaked script and headed toward being a decade out of date. frankly i'm not surprised it was dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille script is off mark. --Gravis On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Usspookes Lovesystemd wrote: > Could you please revive bastille linux for devuan. It's an essential hardining > script and it is unlikely anyone will have a secure system without it. > For some reason on the newer debian 7s it does not run (is this by design?) > On the older debian 7s it runs fine. > > Debian removed it around the time they had the 2 year ssh "bug" (ie: > intentional > redesign of SSH's random num generator by an idiot package maintaine or > plant). > Why? Who knows, it still worked fine then... > but you know if something doesn't get updates, > if that thing is FINISHED.. well then it gets kicked out > of Debian by the faggots/enemies. > > (Same thing with SysV: no updates for years: DEPPPREEECIATEEEDD!!) > > Seems like EVERYTHING is being torpedoed. > > Can you de-orphan this script please. > > http://bastille-linux.sourceforge.net/ > http://sourceforge.net/projects/bastille-linux/ > You can get a deb from here: > http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/b/bastille/ > > Another thing essential for security is the grsecurity patch to the kernel. > Has debian ever packaged it. No. > MANDRAKE Linux packaged it (as hardedned kernel) in 2001. > Easy to use friendly distro packaged it even, but a serious distro, for > somereason > no. > Debian is compromised. > (Even the wikileaks founder knows that) > > > _ > The Free Email with so much more! > => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kali Linux has systemd?
What does it matter. Just dump linux like the trash it has become (have you seen what's happened to /etc/profile ?)The only people invested in linux these days are cunt pro-feminist pieces of shit (who should be killed all around the globe (please WW3 with russia to wipe these people out)) and people trying to subvert the security of the system (and succeeding (Debian SSH rand num gen debacle)).Notice how Devuan has scammed people out of money and not produced ANYTHING.Also notice how, just like the Debian pro-feminist faggts, they argue against simple security scripts because they are "out of date" (and 2012 is a "Decade" in the past) (Bastille Linux, there is no alternative to it, Devuan pukes won't consider it, they are just like the rest of the Debian Social Justice Warrior faggots)Maybe the Devuan guys will go put their hands out to the EU next, like every southern european country.And like any southern european peoples: produce nothing.I'm really looking forward to the Ukraine war kicking off WW3 and all of you pro-feminist SJW people who think you are better than all dying painfully.--- clarke.sider...@gmail.com wrote:From: Clarke Sideroad To: dng@lists.dyne.orgSubject: Re: [Dng] Kali Linux has systemd?Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 10:37:26 -0500 On 10/02/15 11:34 PM, Ed Ender wrote: On 2015-02-10 19:52, Wim wrote: Hi, Mark inquired about the source of my info on kali. I just saw kali on the list at: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Operating_systems_without_systemd_in_the_default_installation Decided to do some research. Apparently, systemd is already present in the latest kali 1.0.9: https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?24275-Ran-updates-and-now-no-GUI-at-all https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?23603-About-Kali-Linux-and-systemd It appears the list isn't up-to-date and they should take kali off. Cheers, Wim I have removed Kali from the wiki since I put it there. But.. I have Kali 1.1.0 (2015-02-09) and can't find systemd in it. I have apt-get updated & upgraded. Using [find / -name systemd*] I have found 2 folders & 1 file: /etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/share/gnome-shell/js/gdm/systemd.js And noticed sysvinit at boot. Can you confirm that systemd is installed in your installation? And if so, how you got it? ___ I have Kali here and it has libsystemd-daemon0 and libsystemd-login0. This is a several times over dist-upgrade and not a new install. I find it conceivable that a new install might install the whole mess, just as a new install of Debian stable and backports will. Kali is after all Debian 7 with mods and apps added. IMHO Kali would benefit from getting clear of the choking, restricted carapace of systemd and make a switch to Devuan when it becomes available. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng The Free Email with so much more!=> http://www.MuchoMail.com <=___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Place and time
"gosh mikeeusa is back on the devuan list. good job their bans are effective" Place and time pro-feminist faggot, You have a problem with me we should settle it. _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he faces in Jessie: http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least more opaque than in the past. I overlooked a lot of this as it gained me some shiny desktop features (I do like easily mounting of removable media and selecting a WiFi AP from my desktop GUI) but I see that left unchecked we now have an ever growing level of complexity. Like John, I don't wish to spark a systemd flame war as that has been done to death. Instead, I think it would be wise for Devuan to lead the way, after Jessie most likely, toward engineering a distribution that is coherent and approachable by cherry-picking packages that maintain current functionality along with reasonable configuration and documentation. Jude et. al. seem to be working in such a direction for device configuration. I'm also pleased with the decision to have Xfce as the default DE. Kudos! Perhaps, I'm not expressing myself as well as I would like. Perhaps this is more an issue of poor documentation from upstreams. Yet I also see what seems to be needless complexity in configuration. Plus there is complexity in dependencies between packages and then complexity in IPC (dbus?). I think what has bothered me the most over the past few years is the churn and what sometimes seems to be adoption and then replacement of a technology without explanation (consolekit to polkit, for example, devfs to udev for another). Some of this is explained away as needed support for desktop environments which are moving quickly. Okay, but when did the community abandon some level of desire for stability? Yes, I'm rambling because, as I posted to John's blog post, I feel helpless and lost with a lot of this. I realize that convenience comes at a price. For example, Network Manager makes a lot of things quite handy, but at the cost of being able to dig through a lot of what it does when something doesn't go quite right. Yes, I know that Slackware is out there (I started with Slackware in 1996), but I am so spoiled by apt that I don't wish to abandon it just yet. I'm also loathe to throw away my 18+ years of Linux and GNU experience for *BSD at this time. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Place and time
"Shopping list: sausages, viennetta and antifreeze. This'll be a great dinner." Oh how hip and snarky! Wow And the beard to hide the chinfat! Nooice! --- usspookslovesyste...@muchomail.com wrote: From: "Usspookes Lovesystemd" To: Subject: [Dng] Place and time Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 08:23:44 -0800 "gosh mikeeusa is back on the devuan list. good job their bans are effective" Place and time pro-feminist faggot, You have a problem with me we should settle it. _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Answer: Yes Case in point: /etc/profile "# The default umask is now handled by pam_umask. # See pam_umask(8) and /etc/login.defs. " Perl+TK gui scripts from 2012 (that's only THREE years ago) not working under debian stable anymore (when they worked under 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 etc... but not 7.8... yes that's "stable" distro there). (Bastille-Linux) Since when was TK ever supposed to change or things be (gay voice) Dpprcitteeeddd!! But nothings going to be done about it, will it. You people here also use the excuse "that's a decade out of date, I can see why they dropped it!" (Yes 3 years is a "Decade", and SysV is also ... some years... "out of date": that's called COMPLETED, MATURE, DONE) We have less security than we did a few years ago. That is by design. The people who force this on us should be punished. --- n...@n0nb.us wrote: From: Nate Bargmann To: Devuan project Subject: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 10:25:20 -0600 John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he faces in Jessie: http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least more opaque than in the past. I overlooked a lot of this as it gained me some shiny desktop features (I do like easily mounting of removable media and selecting a WiFi AP from my desktop GUI) but I see that left unchecked we now have an ever growing level of complexity. Like John, I don't wish to spark a systemd flame war as that has been done to death. Instead, I think it would be wise for Devuan to lead the way, after Jessie most likely, toward engineering a distribution that is coherent and approachable by cherry-picking packages that maintain current functionality along with reasonable configuration and documentation. Jude et. al. seem to be working in such a direction for device configuration. I'm also pleased with the decision to have Xfce as the default DE. Kudos! Perhaps, I'm not expressing myself as well as I would like. Perhaps this is more an issue of poor documentation from upstreams. Yet I also see what seems to be needless complexity in configuration. Plus there is complexity in dependencies between packages and then complexity in IPC (dbus?). I think what has bothered me the most over the past few years is the churn and what sometimes seems to be adoption and then replacement of a technology without explanation (consolekit to polkit, for example, devfs to udev for another). Some of this is explained away as needed support for desktop environments which are moving quickly. Okay, but when did the community abandon some level of desire for stability? Yes, I'm rambling because, as I posted to John's blog post, I feel helpless and lost with a lot of this. I realize that convenience comes at a price. For example, Network Manager makes a lot of things quite handy, but at the cost of being able to dig through a lot of what it does when something doesn't go quite right. Yes, I know that Slackware is out there (I started with Slackware in 1996), but I am so spoiled by apt that I don't wish to abandon it just yet. I'm also loathe to throw away my 18+ years of Linux and GNU experience for *BSD at this time. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
I'd like the old linux back too, but it won't happen. Devuan has allready rejected the Bastille Linux hardening script because it is "old" (A "decade" out of date) (Really 2012 was the last update, because it was completed) The Devuan people suffer from the same mental illness that the rest of the "geeks" do. It is related, for some reason, to the desire to support Social Justice, women, gays, minorities of every stripe. A softness in the brain. A perversion. There is not a replacement for the bastille-linux script, yet the fucks here at devuan, just like the pieces of shit in Debian, have rejected it, and affirm Debian's decision to abandon bastille-linux (and also never ship a grsecurity hardened kernel, and also fuck with SSH's random number generator) Debian, Linux, geeks in general are faggots. They support women rights, they oppose men marrying young female children (allowed in the Old Testament: Deuteronomy 22 28-29 in hebrew), they're for "the future", even though all human pleasure is rooted in what good was created in the past. Hopefully they will die in this coming European war. Then we won't have to worry about systemd, Devuan never releasing one damn thing, etc. Yea, you're speaking to the wind. You want to speak to devs/admins who are not faggots, or pro-faggot, or pro-women. Those people are gone. Only faggots, women, and good milquetoast males are allowed to be employed and make "respectable" income. The "good people" really need to be killed for jailing, banning, firing, blacklisting any man who doesn't obey their "pro-liberation" value system. This war cannot come fast enough. I hope there is alot of painful bloodletting and torture in it. I hope the world burns so that the women inherit nothing. They felt they could just lift the plate of the world out from men's hands once it was technically advanced enough, and sideline men, and ban everything thant men might want (first thing they did was ban child marraige of girls, once women gained influence). I hope they rule over dust. Fuck Systemd, fuck the thoughtprocess that creates such things, and fuck the type of people that create that (hip SJWers, Lennart is one). Keep it Simple Stupid. Not PAM for umask! > Instead, I think it would be wise for Devuan to lead the way, after Jessie most likely, toward engineering a distribution that is coherent and approachable by cherry-picking packages that maintain current functionality along with reasonable configuration and documentation. Jude et. al. seem to be working in such a direction for device configuration. I'm also pleased with the decision to have Xfce as the default DE. Kudos! _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Perl and TK depreciating / becoming incompatable with code within the "same" stable release. (Oh and ngcurses got an "update" too, where the routines for writing to a file from curses script dissappeared) That is unacceptable, insane. TK! TK is only use for sysadmin type guis, and sometimes configuring a makefile. (This is why bastille linux "doesn't work" anymore: what the script does is still relevant, but the code it relys on (perl and tk/ncurses) has "rotted": ie intentionally been changed/broken by new assholes) It should never have "depreciated" features, or removed things. Our house is being destroyed, ON PURPOSE, beneath us. Devuan needs to become the rock that linux once was. It needs to HALT "development". --- christoph.lechleit...@iteg.at wrote: From: Christoph Lechleitner To: usspookslovesyste...@muchomail.com Subject: Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:37:11 +0100 Am 2015-02-11 um 17:29 schrieb Usspookes Lovesystemd: > Answer: Yes > > Case in point: /etc/profile > > "# The default umask is now handled by pam_umask. > # See pam_umask(8) and /etc/login.defs. > " > > Perl+TK gui scripts from 2012 (that's only THREE years ago) Nice ;-( A "nice" systemd feature we recently detected: The parameters and behaviour of /sbin/shutdown changed. For the first time in decades. > not working under debian stable anymore (when they worked under 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 > etc... but not 7.8... yes that's "stable" distro there). Wheezy has seen a couple PiTAs of this kind. > You people here also use the excuse "that's a decade out of date, You know what's out of date? Your tone ;-) VUAs will of course not make such changes if there is no really good reason, and your example shows again that Debian has lost some of it's way. Regards Christoph _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] About separate mailing lists
Hi all, Devuan Weekly News XI posed the following question: == Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list? == In my opinion, maybe there should be two lists, but the split shouldn't be along user/developer lines, nor should it be along coding/philosophical lines. Developers develop for users, and philosophy is the foundation of code. The Debian project strictly enforced this type of separation, and the silly CTTE decision was the result. Debian devs stopped listening to their users, their users forked their project, and now Debian might be superceded by Devuan. We don't want Devuan to go down that path. Maybe (or maybe not) we should make a new list for people (like me) who want to continue making wisecracks about systemd, along with trolls who want to say good things about systemd on Devuan lists. Given that the absense of systemd in Devuan is settled law, neither of these kinds of posts is relevant to the project's development, so nobody would suffer if they were kept off the main list. Summarizing the most important point I'm trying to make: In my opinion separating philosophy and legitimate and reasonable user preference discussions from coding discussions would be a big mistake. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:59:03AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Devuan Weekly News XI posed the following question: > > == > Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming > two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while > at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it > the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list? > == Weighing in a bit: Separation of a mailing list (or any other community tool) should be considered when said tool becomes too hard to manage. dng is not even lkml yet, separating it into several mailing lists would drastically slow discussions down and unnecessarily split people up. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 08:55:07AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. > > anyway, i looked at Bastille and it's a highly tweaked script and > headed toward being a decade out of date. frankly i'm not surprised > it was dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille > script is off mark. > > --Gravis While “it's old” is not really an argument, I tend to agree that Bastille is not something anyone should waste their time on, and that's for the simple reason of it being a script that tries to magically make your system more secure, which is: 1) Impossible to solve in a general sense. 2) Creating a false sense of security. 3) Hell to maintain if you actually try to accomplish the assumed goal. Security is a delicate thing, you should never rely on magical solutions. Instead, learn linux, learn security, implement the needed levels of security yourself. That, or pay an infosec specialist. Don't run magic scripts. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
I don't believe the task is impossible, I'm sure there are people working on such a tool and perhaps they will even open source it! Regards, -Roy On 2/11/2015 11:01 AM, Jack L. Frost wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 08:55:07AM -0500, Gravis wrote: wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. anyway, i looked at Bastille and it's a highly tweaked script and headed toward being a decade out of date. frankly i'm not surprised it was dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille script is off mark. --Gravis While “it's old” is not really an argument, I tend to agree that Bastille is not something anyone should waste their time on, and that's for the simple reason of it being a script that tries to magically make your system more secure, which is: 1) Impossible to solve in a general sense. 2) Creating a false sense of security. 3) Hell to maintain if you actually try to accomplish the assumed goal. Security is a delicate thing, you should never rely on magical solutions. Instead, learn linux, learn security, implement the needed levels of security yourself. That, or pay an infosec specialist. Don't run magic scripts. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:10:27AM -0700, Roy Nielsen wrote: > I don't believe the task is impossible, I'm sure there are people > working on such a tool and perhaps they will even open source it! > > Regards, > -Roy As an industry specialist dealing with security even as a non-infosec guy, I'm confident in saying that a general case security solution is highly improbable. But hey, improbable things happen all the time. I have this bridge I'm trying to sell... signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Conflict of Interest
Nothing is completely secure, there is always a way in: computers do what you tell them to do. Security exists in layers. What bastille does is all those basic linux-security setup things that you may FORGET to do otherwise. Yes you also have to patch and compile the kernel with grsecurity. Yes you also have to disable things like firewire in the kernel. Yes you also have to make sure you're running nothing extranious. BUT BASTILLE does have a place. It closes the "traditional" unix fuckups. So you can concentrate on the new security fuckups without getting bitten because of some basic thing you forgot! This is BULLSHIT that you fucking faggots say that Bastille is useless because 1) you ALLWAYS remeber to do all the little things it configures. and 2) HIRE ME TO DO IT FOR YOU. FUCK YOU FUCK YOU! Guess what, Bastille gets that "general case security solution" slightly closer. It also educates people as to what options exist on linux and what they do. Obviously you, ASSHOLE, have never looked at it. You FUCK. FUCK YOU! With people like you security, even the smallest amount, is IMPOSSIBLE, because you REFUSE to package/allow in scripts that do the setup, because you have a CONFLICT OF INTEREST. You want no one to learn and you want to be hired. Thus you, in your corrupt way, block things that make security ever so slighthly more straightforward on Linux. You're making work for yourself. Kinda like systemd and their consultation services: they cause the problem, now they'll fix it. I have used bastille as a starting point ever since 2002 or so. It is a very useful script for running when you first install a Linux system. (Then I continue to do what else is needed, it is a good base however, this way you don't forget to do things it does) You are shitsucking scum in that you won't have Bastille for Devuan. It shows EXACTLY what you people are: rentseekers. You want your cut for each install (as security expert) FUCK YOU. --- f...@fleshless.org wrote: From: "Jack L. Frost" To: Roy Nielsen Cc: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 21:13:42 +0300 On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:10:27AM -0700, Roy Nielsen wrote: > I don't believe the task is impossible, I'm sure there are people > working on such a tool and perhaps they will even open source it! > > Regards, > -Roy As an industry specialist dealing with security even as a non-infosec guy, I'm confident in saying that a general case security solution is highly improbable. But hey, improbable things happen all the time. I have this bridge I'm trying to sell... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Frauds and liars
Why the hell do you laugh and make a joke of this. You people really are scum.The goal wasn't to dot every I and cross every T. The goal was to dot as many i's and as many T's one could think of in a normal Linux (UNIX LIKE LINUX) install.And that goal WAS achieved. Bastille is a great post-install script to run. Do youremeber every fucking little niggling thing you need to configure in the realm of security?Your answer to potentially having a FALSE sence of security is to ha NO SECURITY.FUCK YOU FUCK YOU!Please. Support/Package Bastille-Linux hardening tool for Devuan.Also a hardened with grsecurity kernel would be good aswell (or is that FALSE sense of security too?)You fucking clowns. Everyone can see through your conflict of interest as security contracters.A tool exists that makes it a little easier for everyone and you reject it.You know with Intel Active Management Technology in every chip (AMD has something similar, as do the ARM chipsets) how can you fucking jokes even talk about security and false senses thereof? There is no security, there are backdoors... but atleast one can TRY, and package / use WHAT OTHERS have allready created FOR YOU.Oh... but that might cut down on your consulting biz. Fuck you you frauds.Thousands have been donated to you and you've just pocketed it.--- amr...@gmail.com wrote:From: Roy Nielsen To: dng@lists.dyne.orgSubject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for DevuanDate: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:10:27 -0700 I don't believe the task is impossible, I'm sure there are people working on such a tool and perhaps they will even open source it! Regards, -Roy On 2/11/2015 11:01 AM, Jack L. Frost wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 08:55:07AM -0500, Gravis wrote: wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. anyway, i looked at Bastille and it's a highly tweaked script and headed toward being a decade out of date. frankly i'm not surprised it was dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille script is off mark. --Gravis While “it's old” is not really an argument, I tend to agree that Bastille is not something anyone should waste their time on, and that's for the simple reason of it being a script that tries to magically make your system more secure, which is: 1) Impossible to solve in a general sense. 2) Creating a false sense of security. 3) Hell to maintain if you actually try to accomplish the assumed goal. Security is a delicate thing, you should never rely on magical solutions. Instead, learn linux, learn security, implement the needed levels of security yourself. That, or pay an infosec specialist. Don't run magic scripts. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng The Free Email with so much more!=> http://www.MuchoMail.com <=___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
Dilute everything further, good idea. Maybe a list for each and every topic next. --- sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: From: Steve Litt To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Subject: [Dng] About separate mailing lists Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:59:03 -0500 Hi all, Devuan Weekly News XI posed the following question: == Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list? == In my opinion, maybe there should be two lists, but the split shouldn't be along user/developer lines, nor should it be along coding/philosophical lines. Developers develop for users, and philosophy is the foundation of code. The Debian project strictly enforced this type of separation, and the silly CTTE decision was the result. Debian devs stopped listening to their users, their users forked their project, and now Debian might be superceded by Devuan. We don't want Devuan to go down that path. Maybe (or maybe not) we should make a new list for people (like me) who want to continue making wisecracks about systemd, along with trolls who want to say good things about systemd on Devuan lists. Given that the absense of systemd in Devuan is settled law, neither of these kinds of posts is relevant to the project's development, so nobody would suffer if they were kept off the main list. Summarizing the most important point I'm trying to make: In my opinion separating philosophy and legitimate and reasonable user preference discussions from coding discussions would be a big mistake. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
Devuan is all about talk and process, nothing's been release, and you people pooh pooh longstanding useful security tools. You don't know what you're doing, except in the realm of rolling some euros into a blunt to smoke. So why not split the list up before you even have anything to show for it? I mean it's process and debate, the only thing you all are good at. Fuck you Jack L. Frost. Fuck you for spitting on a good post-install script that has served us since 2001 known as Bastille-Linux. Fuck you for saying it "will" never work when it HAS worked for 14 years up untill Debian broke compatability with TK and perl! FUCK YOU --- f...@fleshless.org wrote: From: "Jack L. Frost" To: Steve Litt Cc: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Subject: Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:56:58 +0300 On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:59:03AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Devuan Weekly News XI posed the following question: > > == > Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming > two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while > at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it > the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list? > == Weighing in a bit: Separation of a mailing list (or any other community tool) should be considered when said tool becomes too hard to manage. dng is not even lkml yet, separating it into several mailing lists would drastically slow discussions down and unnecessarily split people up. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Frauds and liars -Sorry
Oh, Ok. Sorry then. I've used Bastille since it came out. I know there's more to linux security than what it does, but it is very very useful for setting some baseline things up post install. It doesn't do everything, but what it does is easy to forget between deployments. It also explains everything it does in detail so it helps you learn aswell as refreshes your memory. It has worked fine for these 13 or 14 years of use. It has been developed until 2012 and was mature. It worked fine with debian wheezy untill 7.8 or so, something in TK, perl, and ncurses was changed in this "stable" release which makes it so the TK interface wont come up and the ncurses interface can't save it's config and then can't apply your changes. ... and people on here say "good, it could never ever work" when it did work for over a decade at the very useful things it did. --- amr...@gmail.com wrote: From: Roy Nielsen To: usspookslovesyste...@muchomail.com Subject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Frauds and liars Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:51:13 -0700 I actually am not making a joke of it. If you look around hard enough, you will find that there is a project in the works, that will hopefully be released later this year. Regards, -Roy On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Usspookes Lovesystemd wrote: Why the hell do you laugh and make a joke of this. You people really are scum. The goal wasn't to dot every I and cross every T. The goal was to dot as many i's and as many T's one could think of in a normal Linux (UNIX LIKE LINUX) install. And that goal WAS achieved. Bastille is a great post-install script to run. Do you remeber every fucking little niggling thing you need to configure in the realm of security? Your answer to potentially having a FALSE sence of security is to ha NO SECURITY. FUCK YOU FUCK YOU! Please. Support/Package Bastille-Linux hardening tool for Devuan. Also a hardened with grsecurity kernel would be good aswell (or is that FALSE sense of security too?) You fucking clowns. Everyone can see through your conflict of interest as security contracters. A tool exists that makes it a little easier for everyone and you reject it. You know with Intel Active Management Technology in every chip (AMD has something similar, as do the ARM chipsets) how can you fucking jokes even talk about security and false senses thereof? There is no security, there are backdoors... but atleast one can TRY, and package / use WHAT OTHERS have allready created FOR YOU. Oh... but that might cut down on your consulting biz. Fuck you you frauds. Thousands have been donated to you and you've just pocketed it. --- amr...@gmail.com wrote: From: Roy Nielsen To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:10:27 -0700 I don't believe the task is impossible, I'm sure there are people working on such a tool and perhaps they will even open source it! Regards, -Roy On 2/11/2015 11:01 AM, Jack L. Frost wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 08:55:07AM -0500, Gravis wrote: wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. anyway, i looked at Bastille and it's a highly tweaked script and headed toward being a decade out of date. frankly i'm not surprised it was dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille script is off mark. --Gravis While “it's old” is not really an argument, I tend to agree that Bastill e is not something anyone should waste their time on, and that's for the simp le reason of it being a script that tries to magically make your system mor e secure, which is: 1) Impossible to solve in a general sense. 2) Creating a false sense of security. 3) Hell to maintain if you actually try to accomplish the assumed goal. Security is a delicate thing, you should never rely on magical solutions . Instead, learn linux, learn security, implement the needed levels of sec urity yourself. That, or pay an infosec specialist. Don't run magic scripts. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng __ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= _ The Free Email with so much more! => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 10:53:01 -0800 "Usspookes Lovesystemd" wrote: > FUCK YOU Qu'en termes gracieux ces choses là sont dites... Cheers, Ron. -- Animals can be driven crazy by putting too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself. -- Lazarus Long -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Conflict of Interest
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:41:48AM -0800, Usspookes Lovesystemd wrote: [cut] > > You are shitsucking scum in that you won't have Bastille for Devuan. It shows > EXACTLY > what you people are: rentseekers. You want your cut for each install (as > security expert) FUCK YOU. > Have you ever thought for a moment about the possibility of stopping shouting and fucking up everybody, and taking over the packaging of this wonderful basteille script you are so in love with? It's too easy to vomit shit on other people because they have not done what you would like they to do for you. And it does not earn you any respect, if that is what you are out for. If I were in your shoes I would have just shut up, stand up on my feet, straighten my back, roll my sleeves up, and use the enormous amount of spare time you seem to have to do something good for the community, instead of crouching in a corner and writing thousands of unuseful lines with tons of insults to people you don't even know know. Perhaps this make you feel good, but you would probably feel better with yourself when you use time in a productive way. Try it :) Or maybe you are just a troll and I have not got it yet, so in that case I hope the others will forgive me for this last bit of flesh I offered to your hungry guts... Best -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:53:01AM -0800, Usspookes Lovesystemd wrote: > Devuan is all about talk and process, nothing's been release, and you people > pooh pooh longstanding useful security tools. You don't know what you're > doing, except in the realm of rolling some euros into a blunt to smoke. So > why not split the list up before you even have anything to show for it? I > mean it's process and debate, the only thing you all are good at. > > Fuck you Jack L. Frost. Fuck you for spitting on a good post-install script > that has served us since 2001 known as Bastille-Linux. Fuck you for saying it > "will" never work when it HAS worked for 14 years up untill Debian broke > compatability with TK and perl! > Ah OK, I see then: you are a troll. Sorry guys. Shame over me. Won't do that again :D Best -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Conflict of Interest
This one's a troll. I've added his new address to my killfile already. -Jude On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:07 PM, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:41:48AM -0800, Usspookes Lovesystemd wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > You are shitsucking scum in that you won't have Bastille for Devuan. It > shows EXACTLY > > what you people are: rentseekers. You want your cut for each install (as > > security expert) FUCK YOU. > > > > Have you ever thought for a moment about the possibility of stopping > shouting and fucking up everybody, and taking over the packaging of > this wonderful basteille script you are so in love with? It's too easy > to vomit shit on other people because they have not done what you > would like they to do for you. And it does not earn you any respect, > if that is what you are out for. > > If I were in your shoes I would have just shut up, stand up on my > feet, straighten my back, roll my sleeves up, and use the enormous > amount of spare time you seem to have to do something good for the > community, instead of crouching in a corner and writing thousands of > unuseful lines with tons of insults to people you don't even know > know. Perhaps this make you feel good, but you would probably feel > better with yourself when you use time in a productive way. Try it :) > > Or maybe you are just a troll and I have not got it yet, so in that > case I hope the others will forgive me for this last bit of flesh I > offered to your hungry guts... > > Best > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [DNG] Kali Linux has systemd?
>On 10/02/15 11:34 PM, Ed Ender wrote: >> On 2015-02-10 19:52, Wim wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> Mark inquired about the source of my info on kali. I just saw kali on the >>> list at: >>> >>> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Operating_systems_without_systemd_in_the_default_installation >>> >>> Decided to do some research. Apparently, systemd is already present in the >>> latest kali 1.0.9: >>> >>> https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?24275-Ran-updates-and-now-no-GUI-at-all >>> https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?23603-About-Kali-Linux-and-systemd >>> >>> It appears the list isn't up-to-date and they should take kali off. >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> Wim >> >> I have removed Kali from the wiki since I put it there. But.. >> >> I have Kali 1.1.0 (2015-02-09) and can't find systemd in it. I have apt-get >> updated & upgraded. >> >> Using [find / -name systemd*] I have found 2 folders & 1 file: >> >> /etc/systemd >> /lib/systemd >> /usr/share/gnome-shell/js/gdm/systemd.js >> >> And noticed sysvinit at boot. >> >> Can you confirm that systemd is installed in your installation? And if so, >> how you got it? >> ___ > >I have Kali here and it has libsystemd-daemon0 and libsystemd-login0. > >This is a several times over dist-upgrade and not a new install. >I find it conceivable that a new install might install the whole mess, just as >a new install of Debian stable and backports will. Kali is after all >Debian >7 with mods and apps added. > >IMHO Kali would benefit from getting clear of the choking, restricted carapace >of systemd and make a switch to Devuan when it becomes >available. > >Clarke Thanks for the info Clarke. I have since rethought my search string to [find / -name *systemd*] and had found libsystemd-daemon0 and libsystemd-login0 as well. Still sysvinit is init on my install, and I believe the libs are just to satisfy Gnome. I can't find anything *systemd* in the install iso, aside from a reference to the same two libs. So to be fair, should Kali be left off the wiki or could it be re-added (and monitored for changes), since systemd is not installed as the default init? I am often on the Kali site, and d/l new isos as they come out so it would be no issue for me to keep an eye on it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
I am not a dev at devuan but wants to have an ear in on what's going on Would not be interested at all in user mailing list. Have had enough of flame fights regarding systemd Did contribute money to the cause On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Jack L. Frost wrote: > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:59:03AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > Devuan Weekly News XI posed the following question: > > > > == > > Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming > > two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while > > at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it > > the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list? > > == > > Weighing in a bit: > Separation of a mailing list (or any other community tool) should be > considered > when said tool becomes too hard to manage. dng is not even lkml yet, > separating > it into several mailing lists would drastically slow discussions down and > unnecessarily split people up. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 If find conversations like this annoying and inappropriate for a BLOG that portends to be for building a new distribution of Linux. When working (I'm retired) I dealt with such intransigent attitudes across the spectrum. From my first work with computers using CP/M and System 370, through Bell Labs Version 7 of Unix, BSD, AT&T System III, System V, MS Windows, etc.. Things go out of date. Some times due to simple change is best for our profit (MS is a good example of this), some times due to better algorithms (e.g., the Unix scheduler going from round robin to preemptive priority queuing) and sometimes due to a language definition being tightened (e.g., K&R Vs. ISO C, Perl V.5.14 Vs. 5.8). A little less bombast and more constructive criticism would be in order. The peer reviews used to defend mathematical proposals and the discussion style of magazines from the ACM or IEEE would be more appropriate. That said, a simple and basic security script would be useful. I find that most computer users are clueless about security. Most either have no firewall and anti-malware daemon running, or a thoroughly out of date one in the case of Window's systems. I still hear from people that identity theft is really an urban legend or that there are no consequences, so who cares. On Linux or BSD systems, I set up a simple firewall for people; being lazy I use fwbuilder or something similar to build initial iptables and then either modify the chain rules in fwbuilder or the rules text file. Clamav seems to be the easiest anti malware to use. I also turn off any FTP or other older login methods and set up SSH using seahorse or other easy to use GPG utility so the user can maintain it. One other thing that I have trouble convincing people to use is a heavy weight mail client (e.g., Thunderbird) that supports GPG (enigmail). Email and social media sites are still the biggest threats to a system after the end users themselves. FYI: I first used Linux at version 1.13. BSD since it was created at the University of California at Berkley. AT&T Unix since Bell Labs version 7. I currently run freeBSD (LAN server), Debian wheezy and a custom system that I maintain Via source code or RPM. I'm rather tired of this and will either find a Linux that is based on the Unix principles of KISS and do one thing and only one thing and do it well, or return to my BSD roots. The current Linux wars remind me of the Unix wars of 1985-1995 and VMS Vs. Unix. History keeps repeating, sad to say. Good Luck in creating something in the public sphere that again resembles Unix/POSIX. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlTbsroACgkQpY/BHpBmP2rXIgEAhX2rKrSJ9wZwtAlLyH1eFxDu GP4m4Viawrs6Ol8rmBEA/2zJ89hq6mvEd5Mv4ZgNB5vJW+ylJmTZHjMvxR1OUtH/ =+Hin -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Guidelines?
Hi guys,Sorry if it was asked before, I'm relatively new to here.What's yer take on following Debian's way in dealing with trademarks and non free stuff? I mean like rebranding Mozilla products, creating categories in repos like main contrib and non free and also not including non free firmware in a default installation which is painful for newcomers I think.And also I want (hopelessly?) Devuan community to be more kind and soft in terms of speaking about that systemd in particular. Those who are yelling using curse language cannot change a thing. Those who were calm and understand things out there is currently hard working on this project. I met too many jerks in Debian community who do nothing but screaming.Thank ye guys and good luck everyone,Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] LILO
daniel.cegie...@gmail.com: > 2015-01-31 2:35 GMT+01:00 william moss : ... > and more: > > * LILO will not boot if you use something else than the MBR, this means: > * LILO will not boot if you GPT. > * You will not use HDD bigger than 2TB. > > and: > > * LILO will not boot if you something else than x86/x86_64, so you > will not use lilo on eg ARM. > * LILO will not boot if you use RAID. > * LILO will not boot if you use BTRFS. > * LILO will not boot if you use partition-less schema (raw hdd): > https://www.mail-archive.com/dng@lists.dyne.org/msg00480.html I don't know, I must be doing something wrong. I have this motherboard http://www.msi.com/product/mb/970A-G46.html and two GPT-partitioned 3TB disks using md-raid (mirror), and LILO still boots this thing. How should I fix that ? I have never had any problems with lilo, but then again I always have a small /boot partition first in the partition list. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kali Linux has systemd?
My question is, is it part of the default installation or did you (inadvertently) add it afterwards? --Gravis On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Clarke Sideroad wrote: > On 10/02/15 11:34 PM, Ed Ender wrote: > > On 2015-02-10 19:52, Wim wrote: > > Hi, > > > Mark inquired about the source of my info on kali. I just saw kali on the > list at: > > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Operating_systems_without_systemd_in_the_default_installation > > Decided to do some research. Apparently, systemd is already present in the > latest kali 1.0.9: > > https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?24275-Ran-updates-and-now-no-GUI-at-all > https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?23603-About-Kali-Linux-and-systemd > > It appears the list isn't up-to-date and they should take kali off. > > > Cheers, > > > Wim > > I have removed Kali from the wiki since I put it there. But.. > > I have Kali 1.1.0 (2015-02-09) and can't find systemd in it. I have apt-get > updated & upgraded. > > Using [find / -name systemd*] I have found 2 folders & 1 file: > > /etc/systemd > /lib/systemd > /usr/share/gnome-shell/js/gdm/systemd.js > > And noticed sysvinit at boot. > > Can you confirm that systemd is installed in your installation? And if so, > how you got it? > ___ > > > I have Kali here and it has libsystemd-daemon0 and libsystemd-login0. > > This is a several times over dist-upgrade and not a new install. > I find it conceivable that a new install might install the whole mess, just > as a new install of Debian stable and backports will. Kali is after all > Debian 7 with mods and apps added. > > IMHO Kali would benefit from getting clear of the choking, restricted > carapace of systemd and make a switch to Devuan when it becomes available. > > Clarke > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Package tags
Hey Jaromil, I just want to make sure I'm doing this right (and I apologize in advance if I am not). I imported dbus from Debian upstream, including previous tags and commit histories, into the dbus repository in git.devuan.org. I merged the fix for CVE-2015-0245. I tagged it as "1.8.16-1+devuan1". However, should this have been "debian/1.8.16-1+devuan1" or the like? Thanks, Jude ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Guidelines?
On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:12:17 +0300 mitt_gr...@yahoo.com wrote: > And also I want (hopelessly?) Devuan community to be more kind and > soft [than Debian] It's almost impossible for a list to be meaner than Debian-User. I /dev/nulled about six people my first day at Debian-User, and continued 86ing Debian-User blowhards with abandon. And this was *before* the systemd wars. > in terms of speaking about that systemd in particular. Understand that Devuan's reason for being is an aversion to systemd, so please don't expect this list to be "fair and balanced" with regard to systemd. We don't like it. If we did, we'd be Debian or Fedora users. > Those who > are yelling using curse language cannot change a thing. That's one troll. Send him to /dev/null and move on. As that troll assumes additional email addresses, /dev/null each of them. You could even write a script (call it gregory.sh) to instantly add yet another address to your .procmailrc. > Those who > were calm and understand things out there is currently hard working > on this project. I met too many jerks in Debian community who do > nothing but screaming. This list is nothing like Debian-User. Few are. This list is much more typical, with a bunch of people collaborating to make a better product. I have no idea what's wrong with the Debian community, but they've got problems all the way from the Debian Technical Committee down to their "I can't understand command prompts" newbies, and everywhere in between. > Thank ye guys and good luck everyone, Thanks! SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
John weighs in with a followup: http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9304-reactions-to-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-and-the-value-of-simplicity - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kali Linux has systemd?
well the default installation does not actually have systemd installed which sets it apart from other distros that are not on the list. therefore, Kali should remain on the list of "Operating systems without systemd in the default installation". the libraries are annoying but they are merely interfaces to systemd with no functionality of their own. --Gravis On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Ed Ender wrote: > libsystemd-daemon0 and libsystemd-login0 are installed by default, at least > they are in Kali 1.1.0 (2015-02-09). > > Other than that I don't know what else systemd related is installed. > > But sysvinit is installed as the default init, again at least in Kali 1.1.0. > > In their official repo there is systemd, and systemd-shim. Therefore I > believe that the libs are installed just to satisfy Gnome 3, which is their > default DE. > > So, should Kali be considered enough systemd-less to be listed in the wiki, > considering the default init is sysvinit? > > -Original Message- > From: "Gravis" [rin...@adaptivetime.com] > Date: 02/11/2015 03:57 PM > To: "Clarke Sideroad" > CC: "dng@lists.dyne.org" > Subject: Re: [Dng] Kali Linux has systemd? > > My question is, is it part of the default installation or did you > (inadvertently) add it afterwards? > > --Gravis > > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Clarke Sideroad > wrote: >> On 10/02/15 11:34 PM, Ed Ender wrote: >> >> On 2015-02-10 19:52, Wim wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> Mark inquired about the source of my info on kali. I just saw kali on the >> list at: >> >> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Operating_systems_without_systemd_in_the_default_installation >> >> Decided to do some research. Apparently, systemd is already present in the >> latest kali 1.0.9: >> >> https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?24275-Ran-updates-and-now-no-GUI-at-all >> https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?23603-About-Kali-Linux-and-systemd >> >> It appears the list isn't up-to-date and they should take kali off. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Wim >> >> I have removed Kali from the wiki since I put it there. But.. >> >> I have Kali 1.1.0 (2015-02-09) and can't find systemd in it. I have apt-get >> updated & upgraded. >> >> Using [find / -name systemd*] I have found 2 folders & 1 file: >> >> /etc/systemd >> /lib/systemd >> /usr/share/gnome-shell/js/gdm/systemd.js >> >> And noticed sysvinit at boot. >> >> Can you confirm that systemd is installed in your installation? And if so, >> how you got it? >> ___ >> >> >> I have Kali here and it has libsystemd-daemon0 and libsystemd-login0. >> >> This is a several times over dist-upgrade and not a new install. >> I find it conceivable that a new install might install the whole mess, just >> as a new install of Debian stable and backports will. Kali is after all >> Debian 7 with mods and apps added. >> >> IMHO Kali would benefit from getting clear of the choking, restricted >> carapace of systemd and make a switch to Devuan when it becomes available. >> >> Clarke >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >> > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Guidelines?
On 02/11/2015 05:12 PM, mitt_gr...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Sorry if it was asked before, I'm relatively new to here. > > What's yer take on following Debian's way in dealing with trademarks and non > free stuff? > *** Hi Mitt, nobody should expect anything from Devuan beyond what has been said: the primary objective is to deliver Jessie without systemd. Once this is done, the community will grow, and will probably keep close to Debian in the general lines: the Debian fork was announced as continuity with Debian. AFAIK the VUA have been focusing on three things so far: - providing a solid infrastructure to handle the transition - removing systemd dependencies on the default install - automating package maintenance and de-poettering to allow painless integration from Debian and upstream. Note that dealing with organizational issues, future releases, and current trolls all have been postponed. I like this pragmatic approach to solving real issues as they come and insist for being solved. Now, as another recurring issue that Debian has been accused of is the bureaucracy and the poor relationship with upstream, Devuan is a good place to challenge this and start fresh from that point of view. If you have strong opinions about any issue where you would like to see change, you'd better get ready to work on it and help build solid alternatives. I'd like to share Howard Rheingold's motto at this point: What it is--->is->up to us. Cheers, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Conflict of Interest
Can we make some option with a "ban this user" link at the bottom of emails, and when enough listusers click the link, a message is flagged for review? On 11 February 2015 at 20:41, Usspookes Lovesystemd < usspookslovesyste...@muchomail.com> wrote: > Nothing is completely secure, there is always a way in: computers do > what you tell them to do. > Security exists in layers. > What bastille does is all those basic linux-security setup things that > you may FORGET to do otherwise. > > Yes you also have to patch and compile the kernel with grsecurity. > Yes you also have to disable things like firewire in the kernel. > Yes you also have to make sure you're running nothing extranious. > > BUT BASTILLE does have a place. It closes the "traditional" unix fuckups. > So you can concentrate on the new security fuckups without getting bitten > because of some basic thing you forgot! > > This is BULLSHIT that you fucking faggots say that Bastille is useless > because > 1) you ALLWAYS remeber to do all the little things it configures. > and > 2) HIRE ME TO DO IT FOR YOU. > > FUCK YOU > FUCK YOU! > > Guess what, Bastille gets that "general case security solution" slightly > closer. > It also educates people as to what options exist on linux and what they do. > > Obviously you, ASSHOLE, have never looked at it. You FUCK. > > FUCK YOU! > > With people like you security, even the smallest amount, is IMPOSSIBLE, > because > you REFUSE to package/allow in scripts that do the setup, because you have > a > CONFLICT OF INTEREST. You want no one to learn and you want to be hired. > > Thus you, in your corrupt way, block things that make security ever so > slighthly more > straightforward on Linux. You're making work for yourself. Kinda like > systemd > and their consultation services: they cause the problem, now they'll fix > it. > > I have used bastille as a starting point ever since 2002 or so. > It is a very useful script for running when you first install a Linux > system. > (Then I continue to do what else is needed, it is a good base however, this > way you don't forget to do things it does) > > You are shitsucking scum in that you won't have Bastille for Devuan. It > shows EXACTLY > what you people are: rentseekers. You want your cut for each install (as > security expert) FUCK YOU. > > --- f...@fleshless.org wrote: > > From: "Jack L. Frost" > To: Roy Nielsen > Cc: dng@lists.dyne.org > Subject: Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan > Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 21:13:42 +0300 > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:10:27AM -0700, Roy Nielsen wrote: > > I don't believe the task is impossible, I'm sure there are people > > working on such a tool and perhaps they will even open source it! > > > > Regards, > > -Roy > > As an industry specialist dealing with security even as a non-infosec guy, > I'm > confident in saying that a general case security solution is highly > improbable. > But hey, improbable things happen all the time. I have this bridge I'm > trying > to sell... > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > > _ > The Free Email with so much more! > => http://www.MuchoMail.com <= > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Conflict of Interest
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 06:24:37AM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > Can we make some option with a "ban this user" link at the bottom of > emails, and when enough listusers click the link, a message is flagged for > review? Or at least a manual swing of the banhammer. -- // If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
"John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least more opaque than in the past.” You're right. I think the problems, and frankly systemd as well, stem from the fact that the community has changed. I've been working with computers and writing code for a very long time, over 25 years, so I think that I am somewhat qualified to make that statement. There was a time when the “lingua franca” of the community was C. If you were going to be part of the community, it was expected that you would become proficient with it. Since everyone understood C, no part of Unix was opaque, from the kernel to userspace. Things have changed. Now, people use anything from Python to C#, with a minority using C regularly. Most are kernel developers. Suddenly, everything not written in the favorite language of the day becomes opaque. I'm not trying to start a flame war by saying this, but I think at least 1/3rd of the problems people have with systemd is the fact it is written in C. If it was written in Python, I have my doubts that it would have created such a stink. There are large, complex pieces of system software written in Python scattered all over the Linux community and no one treats that as an apocalypse, even when they cause huge stability problems. “I think what has bothered me the most over the past few years is the churn and what sometimes seems to be adoption and then replacement of a technology without explanation” This is symptomatic of the way Linux is developed in distributions. Rather than agreeing to common standards, each goes their own way. This is not a bad thing – not at all – but it tends to be disruptive from time to time. “Okay, but when did the community abandon some level of desire for stability?” All the time. A prime example would be Ubuntu. Ubuntu uses Debian Unstable, and forces a refresh every 6 months, stable or no. “I'm also loathe to throwaway my 18+ years of Linux and GNU experience for *BSD at this time.” You can always try Gentoo as a bridge experience between the Linux you are used to and the BSDs. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Nice post, thanks! My €0.02 - About the time that MS introduced "Software Assurance" (2002 or so?) I headed up a team to develop an "Enterprise Linux Desktop", and we had great success. Although we didn't manage to fully execute on our mission (deploy to 10.000 workstations for organization I was working for) our Proof of Concept was sufficiently slick, workable, and manageable that a bunch of demo's to the MS commercial team that were playing hardball with us resulted in increasingly worried faces in the room, and eventually, deep, long term discounts. This was repeated a few times during the following years for different organizations. Linux worked, was actually easier to make work on a large scale over MS software, and customizing, deploying and managing desktop systems was a _breeze_ It goes without saying that Linux (KDE) was the only desktop environment I used on all machines under my control. About 5 to 6 years ago, I came to a point where I found that I was spending more time making things work then actually using them, and a while later, reluctantly, I switched my main desktop environment to Windows. I manage a good number of servers, with the vast majority of them running Linux, but desktops? Windows all the way. Gnome developed exactly along the path I suspected it would which is why I avoided it - Miguel de Icaza being an early incarnation of Lennart. (although I am very happy with the Midnight Commander...), and although KDE is a lot more agreeable to my tastes, there is simply too much tweaking and day to day little hassles - I have a job to do, and my PC is the tool I need to do this job - it needs to Just Work(tm) Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I don't think we will ever get there with desktops. On 11 February 2015 at 18:25, Nate Bargmann wrote: > John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he > faces in Jessie: > > > http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie > > John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from > systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that > various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least more > opaque than in the past. I overlooked a lot of this as it gained me > some shiny desktop features (I do like easily mounting of removable > media and selecting a WiFi AP from my desktop GUI) but I see that left > unchecked we now have an ever growing level of complexity. > > Like John, I don't wish to spark a systemd flame war as that has been > done to death. Instead, I think it would be wise for Devuan to lead the > way, after Jessie most likely, toward engineering a distribution that is > coherent and approachable by cherry-picking packages that maintain > current functionality along with reasonable configuration and > documentation. Jude et. al. seem to be working in such a direction for > device configuration. I'm also pleased with the decision to have Xfce > as the default DE. Kudos! > > Perhaps, I'm not expressing myself as well as I would like. Perhaps > this is more an issue of poor documentation from upstreams. Yet I also > see what seems to be needless complexity in configuration. Plus there > is complexity in dependencies between packages and then complexity in > IPC (dbus?). > > I think what has bothered me the most over the past few years is the > churn and what sometimes seems to be adoption and then replacement of a > technology without explanation (consolekit to polkit, for example, devfs > to udev for another). Some of this is explained away as needed support > for desktop environments which are moving quickly. Okay, but when did > the community abandon some level of desire for stability? > > Yes, I'm rambling because, as I posted to John's blog post, I feel > helpless and lost with a lot of this. I realize that convenience comes > at a price. For example, Network Manager makes a lot of things quite > handy, but at the cost of being able to dig through a lot of what it > does when something doesn't go quite right. Yes, I know that Slackware > is out there (I started with Slackware in 1996), but I am so spoiled by > apt that I don't wish to abandon it just yet. I'm also loathe to throw > away my 18+ years of Linux and GNU experience for *BSD at this time. > > - Nate > > -- > > "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all > possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." > > Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
links added on my systemd vault in the philosophy and architecture section : http://neofutur.net/systemd-vault I keep adding interesting and related links ( and dependency graphs ), please all feel free to ping me on irc #debianfork or #rootslinux when you find somehting that should be added on this "Everything you need to fully understand the systemd problem" page On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > Nice post, thanks! > > My €0.02 - About the time that MS introduced "Software Assurance" (2002 or > so?) I headed up a team to develop an "Enterprise Linux Desktop", and we had > great success. Although we didn't manage to fully execute on our mission > (deploy to 10.000 workstations for organization I was working for) our Proof > of Concept was sufficiently slick, workable, and manageable that a bunch of > demo's to the MS commercial team that were playing hardball with us resulted > in increasingly worried faces in the room, and eventually, deep, long term > discounts. This was repeated a few times during the following years for > different organizations. > > Linux worked, was actually easier to make work on a large scale over MS > software, and customizing, deploying and managing desktop systems was a > _breeze_ > > It goes without saying that Linux (KDE) was the only desktop environment I > used on all machines under my control. > > About 5 to 6 years ago, I came to a point where I found that I was spending > more time making things work then actually using them, and a while later, > reluctantly, I switched my main desktop environment to Windows. I manage a > good number of servers, with the vast majority of them running Linux, but > desktops? Windows all the way. Gnome developed exactly along the path I > suspected it would which is why I avoided it - Miguel de Icaza being an > early incarnation of Lennart. (although I am very happy with the Midnight > Commander...), and although KDE is a lot more agreeable to my tastes, there > is simply too much tweaking and day to day little hassles - I have a job to > do, and my PC is the tool I need to do this job - it needs to Just Work(tm) > > Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I don't > think we will ever get there with desktops. > > On 11 February 2015 at 18:25, Nate Bargmann wrote: >> >> John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he >> faces in Jessie: >> >> >> http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie >> >> John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from >> systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that >> various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least more >> opaque than in the past. I overlooked a lot of this as it gained me >> some shiny desktop features (I do like easily mounting of removable >> media and selecting a WiFi AP from my desktop GUI) but I see that left >> unchecked we now have an ever growing level of complexity. >> >> Like John, I don't wish to spark a systemd flame war as that has been >> done to death. Instead, I think it would be wise for Devuan to lead the >> way, after Jessie most likely, toward engineering a distribution that is >> coherent and approachable by cherry-picking packages that maintain >> current functionality along with reasonable configuration and >> documentation. Jude et. al. seem to be working in such a direction for >> device configuration. I'm also pleased with the decision to have Xfce >> as the default DE. Kudos! >> >> Perhaps, I'm not expressing myself as well as I would like. Perhaps >> this is more an issue of poor documentation from upstreams. Yet I also >> see what seems to be needless complexity in configuration. Plus there >> is complexity in dependencies between packages and then complexity in >> IPC (dbus?). >> >> I think what has bothered me the most over the past few years is the >> churn and what sometimes seems to be adoption and then replacement of a >> technology without explanation (consolekit to polkit, for example, devfs >> to udev for another). Some of this is explained away as needed support >> for desktop environments which are moving quickly. Okay, but when did >> the community abandon some level of desire for stability? >> >> Yes, I'm rambling because, as I posted to John's blog post, I feel >> helpless and lost with a lot of this. I realize that convenience comes >> at a price. For example, Network Manager makes a lot of things quite >> handy, but at the cost of being able to dig through a lot of what it >> does when something doesn't go quite right. Yes, I know that Slackware >> is out there (I started with Slackware in 1996), but I am so spoiled by >> apt that I don't wish to abandon it just yet. I'm also loathe to throw >> away my 18+ years of Linux and GNU experience for *BSD at this time. >> >> - Nate >> >> -- >> >> "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all >>
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 07:33:51AM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote: [cut] > > Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I > don't think we will ever get there with desktops. > Agree. That's exactly why, IMHO, we should focus on what GNU/Linux does better, and refrain from gladly and blindly embracing the last miscarriage-piece-of-software "for the good of the large masses of desktop users". Simply put, there are no large masses of desktop users, and IMHO never will be, so whenever something is proposed for the good of these non-existing masses, an alarm should ring in our heads. My2cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Agree. That's exactly why, IMHO, we should focus on what GNU/Linux > does better, and refrain from gladly and blindly embracing the last > miscarriage-piece-of-software "for the good of the large masses of > desktop users". Simply put, there are no large masses of desktop > users, and IMHO never will be, so whenever something is proposed for > the good of these non-existing masses, an alarm should ring in our > heads. > I don't even care so much whatever they want to do for desktops. I start caring when "solutions" for desktops start impacting whatever happens on the server side. One of the reasons we were actually able to build and deploy enterprise level Linux desktops over 10 years ago was because there were none of these insane dependency chains. grumble grumble, now get off my lawn! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
On 02/12/2015 09:21 AM, KatolaZ wrote: Agree. That's exactly why, IMHO, we should focus on what GNU/Linux does better, and refrain from gladly and blindly embracing the last miscarriage-piece-of-software "for the good of the large masses of desktop users". One solution is to clearly segment distributions: It's bad to have a desktop oriented distribution and a server oriented one on a shared baseline. I think Ubuntu and OpenSuse really rock on the Desktop side. They should have pushed very far the desktop line and let the server to other distributions. They have Ubuntu almost made it with JeOS (http://goo.gl/nppaEs) OTOH, IMHO Debian should not try to deploy on Desktop. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
