links added on my systemd vault in the philosophy and architecture section :
http://neofutur.net/systemd-vault I keep adding interesting and related links ( and dependency graphs ), please all feel free to ping me on irc #debianfork or #rootslinux when you find somehting that should be added on this "Everything you need to fully understand the systemd problem" page On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Martijn Dekkers <devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk> wrote: > Nice post, thanks! > > My €0.02 - About the time that MS introduced "Software Assurance" (2002 or > so?) I headed up a team to develop an "Enterprise Linux Desktop", and we had > great success. Although we didn't manage to fully execute on our mission > (deploy to 10.000 workstations for organization I was working for) our Proof > of Concept was sufficiently slick, workable, and manageable that a bunch of > demo's to the MS commercial team that were playing hardball with us resulted > in increasingly worried faces in the room, and eventually, deep, long term > discounts. This was repeated a few times during the following years for > different organizations. > > Linux worked, was actually easier to make work on a large scale over MS > software, and customizing, deploying and managing desktop systems was a > _breeze_ > > It goes without saying that Linux (KDE) was the only desktop environment I > used on all machines under my control. > > About 5 to 6 years ago, I came to a point where I found that I was spending > more time making things work then actually using them, and a while later, > reluctantly, I switched my main desktop environment to Windows. I manage a > good number of servers, with the vast majority of them running Linux, but > desktops? Windows all the way. Gnome developed exactly along the path I > suspected it would which is why I avoided it - Miguel de Icaza being an > early incarnation of Lennart. (although I am very happy with the Midnight > Commander...), and although KDE is a lot more agreeable to my tastes, there > is simply too much tweaking and day to day little hassles - I have a job to > do, and my PC is the tool I need to do this job - it needs to Just Work(tm) > > Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I don't > think we will ever get there with desktops. > > On 11 February 2015 at 18:25, Nate Bargmann <n...@n0nb.us> wrote: >> >> John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he >> faces in Jessie: >> >> >> http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie >> >> John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from >> systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that >> various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least more >> opaque than in the past. I overlooked a lot of this as it gained me >> some shiny desktop features (I do like easily mounting of removable >> media and selecting a WiFi AP from my desktop GUI) but I see that left >> unchecked we now have an ever growing level of complexity. >> >> Like John, I don't wish to spark a systemd flame war as that has been >> done to death. Instead, I think it would be wise for Devuan to lead the >> way, after Jessie most likely, toward engineering a distribution that is >> coherent and approachable by cherry-picking packages that maintain >> current functionality along with reasonable configuration and >> documentation. Jude et. al. seem to be working in such a direction for >> device configuration. I'm also pleased with the decision to have Xfce >> as the default DE. Kudos! >> >> Perhaps, I'm not expressing myself as well as I would like. Perhaps >> this is more an issue of poor documentation from upstreams. Yet I also >> see what seems to be needless complexity in configuration. Plus there >> is complexity in dependencies between packages and then complexity in >> IPC (dbus?). >> >> I think what has bothered me the most over the past few years is the >> churn and what sometimes seems to be adoption and then replacement of a >> technology without explanation (consolekit to polkit, for example, devfs >> to udev for another). Some of this is explained away as needed support >> for desktop environments which are moving quickly. Okay, but when did >> the community abandon some level of desire for stability? >> >> Yes, I'm rambling because, as I posted to John's blog post, I feel >> helpless and lost with a lot of this. I realize that convenience comes >> at a price. For example, Network Manager makes a lot of things quite >> handy, but at the cost of being able to dig through a lot of what it >> does when something doesn't go quite right. Yes, I know that Slackware >> is out there (I started with Slackware in 1996), but I am so spoiled by >> apt that I don't wish to abandon it just yet. I'm also loathe to throw >> away my 18+ years of Linux and GNU experience for *BSD at this time. >> >> - Nate >> >> -- >> >> "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all >> possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." >> >> Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us >> _______________________________________________ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > _______________________________________________ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
