Please confirm the following error in AOO 4.0

[Jörg Schmidt]

Hello,

Can anyone confirm the following error in AOO 4.0?

If you have installed an extension that contains a toolbar or an entry in the 
Help menu, and in the extension-manager click (for this extension) the 
"Disable" button and then "Enable", then, after opening a new window, her 
toolbar and the entry in the Help menu will not be visible.

Only when you install the extension again, the toolbar and the entry in the 
Help menu is visible again.


(observed in AOO 4.0 on Windows XP)



Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: AOO on Debian/Ubuntu via APT Repositories

[RA Stehmann]

Hello Mike,

I watched my wife packaging two little programs for the Debian
repository (she's  not finished yet, but on a good way.)

My resume is:

It's one thing putting AOO into some deb packages. But it's another
thing packing AOO in a proper way, so it's fit fpr the Debian repository.

The second thing is a very hard job and IMO impossible without the
friendly support of experienced Debian Developers.

Just my two cents.

Regards
Michael

On 16.08.2013 04:26, Mike Dupont wrote:
> Hello,
> because there are no source packages in debian format the packages
> will not be accepted officially.
> 



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Poor user experience with update of extensions

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 8/15/13 9:10 PM, Roberto Galoppini wrote:
> 2013/8/15 Andrea Pescetti 
> 
>> Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:
>>
>>> On 15.08.2013 12:00, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>>>
 I noticed a changed workflow compared to former days and I am redirected
 now to the webpage where I can download the extension.

>>> The update of an extension should work like the update of the extension
>>> "Watching Window" from 0.4.4 to 0.5.0. ...
>>> For the English dictionary I need to download manually the new
>>> extension. Then I need to install it manually.
>>>
>>
>> The exception here is "Watching Window", that uses custom updates. The
>> English dictionary behaves like virtually all other extensions. I give some
>> more details for those who are unfamiliar with the extensions packaging.
>>
>> Whoever packaged the English dictionary back in 2010 made the (right)
>> choice to leave to the Extensions site the responsibility to manage
>> updates. "Watching Window", instead, specifies its own update feed, that
>> lives on Github; but this is a more fragile setup; for example, I've seen
>> countless mentions of this problem (for the OxygenOffice gallery extension,
>> that specified its own update feed but then moved it...) over the years:
>> http://forum.openoffice.org/**en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=**31360
>>
>> If you specify (and host) your own update feed, you can choose the update
>> policy (direct or indirect download); if you don't, the Extensions site
>> manages everything for you and you, as the extension maintainer, can't
>> choose between direct and indirect download.
>>
>> So what is under discussion here is not whether the 2010 maintainer of the
>> English dictionary made the right choice in relying on the generic update
>> feed (he did; otherwise I wouldn't have been able to republish his
>> extension and push updates), but is that the generic update feed on the
>> Extensions site is configured to serve updates as indirect downloads and
>> not as direct downloads.
>>
> 
> The indirect download approach could be used to communicate with end-users
> through the landing pages. May be this is something we might want to
> explore to outreach our user base.
> 

could be but I think it is not wanted in this specific context. The user
simply want the already installed and used extension get updated.

A useful enhancement to the whole managing of extensions is indeed the
possibility to browse extension online. That was planned from the
beginning but never realized because of some reasons that are no longer
relevant.

The same for templates, allow easy access to the online available
templates, allow to mark favorites, allow offline usage of them etc. And
most important make it configurable that it can be redirected to an
internal template or extension repository. Many companies want more
control about the things users can install or not

Taking such design into account from the beginning and everything is fine

Juergen




> Roberto
> 
> 
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.
>>
>> --**--**-
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
>> dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.**apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
> 


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Re: Changes needed for /main/solenv/inc/minor.mk in AOO401 branch and trunk

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 8/15/13 9:59 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
> Am 08/15/2013 08:25 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>> I think build number, etc needs updating for our current work in the
>> AOO401
>> branch and trunk. I don't know how this information gets determined and
>> changed.
> 
> Just open a BZ issue and assign it to Juergen. I'm confident that he
> will take care to change all necessary data. And when committing it's
> also documented in the issue.
> 
>> Using existing build/version information is problematic for parallel
>> installs (n multiple VMs) in Linux.

I have done this

AOO401 branch:
RSCVERSION=401
RSCREVISION=401m1(Build:9710)
BUILD=9710
LAST_MINOR=m1
SOURCEVERSION=AOO401

Trunk:
RSCVERSION=410
RSCREVISION=410m1(Build:9750)
BUILD=9750
LAST_MINOR=m1
SOURCEVERSION=AOO410

We still have some redundancy here and we should analyze where
exactly these values are used.

Build number is have to be in the range of unsigned short because of
usage in the windows installer/registry

Anyway for now we have room for some builds for AOO 4.0.1


Juergen

> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
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Re: Poor user experience with update of extensions

[Oliver-Rainer Wittmann]

Hi,

On 16.08.2013 09:34, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:

On 8/15/13 9:10 PM, Roberto Galoppini wrote:

2013/8/15 Andrea Pescetti 


Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:


On 15.08.2013 12:00, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:


I noticed a changed workflow compared to former days and I am redirected
now to the webpage where I can download the extension.


The update of an extension should work like the update of the extension
"Watching Window" from 0.4.4 to 0.5.0. ...
For the English dictionary I need to download manually the new
extension. Then I need to install it manually.



The exception here is "Watching Window", that uses custom updates. The
English dictionary behaves like virtually all other extensions. I give some
more details for those who are unfamiliar with the extensions packaging.

Whoever packaged the English dictionary back in 2010 made the (right)
choice to leave to the Extensions site the responsibility to manage
updates. "Watching Window", instead, specifies its own update feed, that
lives on Github; but this is a more fragile setup; for example, I've seen
countless mentions of this problem (for the OxygenOffice gallery extension,
that specified its own update feed but then moved it...) over the years:
http://forum.openoffice.org/**en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=**31360

If you specify (and host) your own update feed, you can choose the update
policy (direct or indirect download); if you don't, the Extensions site
manages everything for you and you, as the extension maintainer, can't
choose between direct and indirect download.

So what is under discussion here is not whether the 2010 maintainer of the
English dictionary made the right choice in relying on the generic update
feed (he did; otherwise I wouldn't have been able to republish his
extension and push updates), but is that the generic update feed on the
Extensions site is configured to serve updates as indirect downloads and
not as direct downloads.



The indirect download approach could be used to communicate with end-users
through the landing pages. May be this is something we might want to
explore to outreach our user base.



could be but I think it is not wanted in this specific context. The user
simply want the already installed and used extension get updated.


I agree here with Jürgen.
The user was/is already in contact with the extension website - 
otherwise she had no had the to-be-updated extension. We have the link 
to the extension website in the Start Center. This could be extended by 
something like 'news about your installed extensions' or 'other useful 
extensions'.
But, here the user just wants to update an installed extension - having 
it 'indirectly' - as currently implemented - is a hurdle. Keep in mind 
that a user has typically more than one extension installed which is 
using the 'standard' update mechanism from the extension website service.



Best regards, Oliver.



A useful enhancement to the whole managing of extensions is indeed the
possibility to browse extension online. That was planned from the
beginning but never realized because of some reasons that are no longer
relevant.

The same for templates, allow easy access to the online available
templates, allow to mark favorites, allow offline usage of them etc. And
most important make it configurable that it can be redirected to an
internal template or extension repository. Many companies want more
control about the things users can install or not

Taking such design into account from the beginning and everything is fine

Juergen





Roberto




Regards,
   Andrea.

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Re: New volunteer introduction

[sumit Murari]

thnks for reply :)

I can do development in C,C++ or JAVA, and frankly i want to contribute
something. I just use  OSS,  for my work and haven't done any contribution
yet, so it doesn't feels nice ..

I'm comfortable with development, but i don't know, where to start and how
to start .


On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 4:45 AM, sumit Murari 
> wrote:
>
> > hello all, My name is timus, i've been using OpenOffice, and many OSS,
> now
> > i want to contribute some to openOffice.
> >
> >
> > I'm from India, and i'm interested in contributing to OpenOffice.
> >  I've never contributed in any OSS so far, my contribution was limited to
> > using software sending statistics and sending the crash report if i
> > encountered any.
> > Looking for anyone who can guide me ...
> >
> > Any help will be appreciated ..
> >
>
>
> Hello timus and it's great that you want to get involved with OpenOffice.
> It would help if we had an idea of what areas you would like to help with.
>
> Some of our major areas, aside from direct user support through the Forums
> or "users" list, are discussed in the orientation modules:
>
> http://openoffice.apache.org/orientation/index.html
>
> So, if you can tell us a little more about what you'd like to do, we can
> assist you with your OpenOffice volunteer efforts better.
>
>
> --
>
> -
> MzK
>
> "When in doubt, cop an attitude."
> -- Cat laws
>



-- 
*Sumit*

4.0.1_release_blocker requested: [Bug 122868] writer crash on pdf export from page preview

[bugzilla]

Oliver-Rainer Wittmann  has asked  for 4.0.1_release_blocker:
Bug 122868: writer crash on pdf export from page preview
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=122868


--- Additional Comments from Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 
fix is in progress

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Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.

[hagar . delest]

Many thanks too!

I don't think there was a BZ report for that since we used to handle such 
changes internally to the forum in the past.

Hagar


> Objet : Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.
>

> 2013/8/15 janI 
> 
> > hi.
> >
> > I have solved the 4.0 signature problem in all forums, thanks to an
> > excellent hint from terry.
> >
> 
> 
> Great! Many thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > However I cannot find the BZ relating to signatures, is is just because I
> > cannot see the wood for trees, or was it never filed ?
> >
> 
> 
> It seems it was never filled. At least, I cannot find it either. It was
> commented on the forums and on the mailing list, but I cannot remember
> anyone providing a bug report number.
> 
> Regards
> Ricardo
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > rgds
> > jan I.
> >
> 

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Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net

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Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[hagar . delest]

Reported on the forum:
http://torrentfreak.com/microsoft-censors-openoffice-download-links-130814/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Hagar

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Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.

[janI]

On Aug 16, 2013 12:42 PM,  wrote:
>
> Many thanks too!
>
> I don't think there was a BZ report for that since we used to handle such
changes internally to the forum in the past.

thats quite ok, but can we for the future agree that issues req. vm access
to solve is reported in BZ.

thx
jan i

ps, I dont know if sinature could have been done by an admin in evrey
forum, I could not find it in admin panel (and it would have req. many
admins)
>
> Hagar
>
>
> > Objet : Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.
> >
>
> > 2013/8/15 janI
> >
> > > hi.
> > >
> > > I have solved the 4.0 signature problem in all forums, thanks to an
> > > excellent hint from terry.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Great! Many thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > However I cannot find the BZ relating to signatures, is is just
because I
> > > cannot see the wood for trees, or was it never filed ?
> > >
> >
> >
> > It seems it was never filled. At least, I cannot find it either. It was
> > commented on the forums and on the mailing list, but I cannot remember
> > anyone providing a bug report number.
> >
> > Regards
> > Ricardo
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > rgds
> > > jan I.
> > >
> >
>
> Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous
tente ?
> Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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>

Re: Some thoughts on quality

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 15/08/2013 Rob Weir wrote:

A thought experiment:   If we ran the existing test automation on
4.0.0, how many of the bugs that we're fixing in 4.0.1 do you think
would be detected?


I would expect this 4.0.1 blocker issue (wrong results in certain Calc 
functions) to be detectable by automated testing:

https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=122997

Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.

[hagar . delest]

No problem, we will open tickets in BZ in the future.

Ricardo knows about the signature IIRC (don't remember if he talked about it on 
the list or in the forum). But I don't remember if it can be changed in the 
admin panel (I don't have the full rights). I would say that it's a PHPMOD that 
needs some tweaking in the configuration file on the server directly but not 
100% sure.

Hagar


> Objet : Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.
>

> On Aug 16, 2013 12:42 PM,  wrote:
> >
> > Many thanks too!
> >
> > I don't think there was a BZ report for that since we used to handle such
> changes internally to the forum in the past.
> 
> thats quite ok, but can we for the future agree that issues req. vm access
> to solve is reported in BZ.
> 
> thx
> jan i
> 
> ps, I dont know if sinature could have been done by an admin in evrey
> forum, I could not find it in admin panel (and it would have req. many
> admins)
> >
> > Hagar
> >
> >
> > > Objet : Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.
> > >
> >
> > > 2013/8/15 janI
> > >
> > > > hi.
> > > >
> > > > I have solved the 4.0 signature problem in all forums, thanks to an
> > > > excellent hint from terry.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Great! Many thanks!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > However I cannot find the BZ relating to signatures, is is just
> because I
> > > > cannot see the wood for trees, or was it never filed ?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It seems it was never filled. At least, I cannot find it either. It was
> > > commented on the forums and on the mailing list, but I cannot remember
> > > anyone providing a bug report number.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Ricardo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > rgds
> > > > jan I.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous
> tente ?
> > Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> 

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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Rob Weir]

2013/8/16  :
> Reported on the forum:
> http://torrentfreak.com/microsoft-censors-openoffice-download-links-130814/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
>

The URLs mentioned in the article look scary to me, with version that
never really existed, like "3.3.2".  As you know there are several
websites that claim to offer OpenOffice downloads but then bundle it
with adware.  I wouldn't assume that torrents are any safer.

It would be worth asking if anyone really needs AOO torrents and
whether we should look at providing official ones.

-Rob

> Hagar
>
> Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous 
> tente ?
> Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
>
> -
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Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.

[janI]

On 16 August 2013 12:57,  wrote:

> No problem, we will open tickets in BZ in the future.
>
> Ricardo knows about the signature IIRC (don't remember if he talked about
> it on the list or in the forum). But I don't remember if it can be changed
> in the admin panel (I don't have the full rights). I would say that it's a
> PHPMOD that needs some tweaking in the configuration file on the server
> directly but not 100% sure.
>
It was a database table xx.phpbb_xx_config, and did it directly in mysql
for all forums (xx == language), since I found no other way.

The signatur should be ok now, feel free to test it.

rgds
jan I.


>
> Hagar
>
>
> > Objet : Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.
> >
>
> > On Aug 16, 2013 12:42 PM,  wrote:
> > >
> > > Many thanks too!
> > >
> > > I don't think there was a BZ report for that since we used to handle
> such
> > changes internally to the forum in the past.
> >
> > thats quite ok, but can we for the future agree that issues req. vm
> access
> > to solve is reported in BZ.
> >
> > thx
> > jan i
> >
> > ps, I dont know if sinature could have been done by an admin in evrey
> > forum, I could not find it in admin panel (and it would have req. many
> > admins)
> > >
> > > Hagar
> > >
> > >
> > > > Objet : Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > 2013/8/15 janI
> > > >
> > > > > hi.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have solved the 4.0 signature problem in all forums, thanks to an
> > > > > excellent hint from terry.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Great! Many thanks!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > However I cannot find the BZ relating to signatures, is is just
> > because I
> > > > > cannot see the wood for trees, or was it never filed ?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It seems it was never filled. At least, I cannot find it either. It
> was
> > > > commented on the forums and on the mailing list, but I cannot
> remember
> > > > anyone providing a bug report number.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Ricardo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > rgds
> > > > > jan I.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça
> vous
> > tente ?
> > > Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> > >
> >
>
> Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous
> tente ?
> Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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>
>

The Names of OpenOffice (How users are finding our website)

[Rob Weir]

And update of data gathered from website visitors.  Of the ones who
come to our website from a search engine results list (and that is 48%
of our total visitors), the top ten search queries, along with a count
of recent visitors, are:

1. open office (326,369)
2. openoffice (213,374)
3. openoffice download (32,188)
4. openoffice.org (21,786)
5. オープンオフィス (13,476)
6. open office mac (11,307)
7. apache openoffice (10,576)
8. open office download (8,964)
9. openoffice for mac (7,395)
10. download open office (7,006)

Note the strong drop after the first two queries.

(And what is #5?  Japanese?  What does it say?)

So what does this all mean?

A. Users are not consistent about whether the name is one word or two.
 Maybe they hear about the name by ear?  Or maybe this is just the
pull of standard language rules.  The noun is "office" and "open" is
an adjective.  It is hard to overcome years of schooling to think of
an artificial name like "OpenOffice".

B.  The core name in their mind is "OpenOffice"/"Open Office" without
the ".org" or the "Apache".  This is what they are searching for when
they look for us.

Now, one might have a theory that uses searching for "open office" end
up on our website by mistake.  Maybe they were searching for something
else.  For example, this term is also used to refer to an office
seating plan without walls, where everything is open in a big room.
This is also an "open office".  However, if I look at only
search-directed traffic that actually leads to a download of AOO, the
query "open office" and "openoffice" are also at the very top of the
list.

Regards,

-Rob

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Re: The Names of OpenOffice (How users are finding our website)

[sebb]

On 16 August 2013 12:56, Rob Weir  wrote:
> And update of data gathered from website visitors.  Of the ones who
> come to our website from a search engine results list (and that is 48%
> of our total visitors), the top ten search queries, along with a count
> of recent visitors, are:
>
> 1. open office (326,369)
> 2. openoffice (213,374)
> 3. openoffice download (32,188)
> 4. openoffice.org (21,786)
> 5. オープンオフィス (13,476)
> 6. open office mac (11,307)
> 7. apache openoffice (10,576)
> 8. open office download (8,964)
> 9. openoffice for mac (7,395)
> 10. download open office (7,006)
>
> Note the strong drop after the first two queries.
>
> (And what is #5?  Japanese?  What does it say?)

Google Translate says it is Japanese for "open Office" (sic)

> So what does this all mean?
>
> A. Users are not consistent about whether the name is one word or two.
>  Maybe they hear about the name by ear?  Or maybe this is just the
> pull of standard language rules.  The noun is "office" and "open" is
> an adjective.  It is hard to overcome years of schooling to think of
> an artificial name like "OpenOffice".
>
> B.  The core name in their mind is "OpenOffice"/"Open Office" without
> the ".org" or the "Apache".  This is what they are searching for when
> they look for us.
>
> Now, one might have a theory that uses searching for "open office" end
> up on our website by mistake.  Maybe they were searching for something
> else.  For example, this term is also used to refer to an office
> seating plan without walls, where everything is open in a big room.
> This is also an "open office".  However, if I look at only
> search-directed traffic that actually leads to a download of AOO, the
> query "open office" and "openoffice" are also at the very top of the
> list.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Rob
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>

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Re: The Names of OpenOffice (How users are finding our website)

[Ian Lynch]

Surprised there is no 开放式办公 (Open Office in Chinese) given the population.

Though on a recent trip to China I was surprised at how low the awareness
was of AOO.


On 16 August 2013 13:21, sebb  wrote:

> On 16 August 2013 12:56, Rob Weir  wrote:
> > And update of data gathered from website visitors.  Of the ones who
> > come to our website from a search engine results list (and that is 48%
> > of our total visitors), the top ten search queries, along with a count
> > of recent visitors, are:
> >
> > 1. open office (326,369)
> > 2. openoffice (213,374)
> > 3. openoffice download (32,188)
> > 4. openoffice.org (21,786)
> > 5. オープンオフィス (13,476)
> > 6. open office mac (11,307)
> > 7. apache openoffice (10,576)
> > 8. open office download (8,964)
> > 9. openoffice for mac (7,395)
> > 10. download open office (7,006)
> >
> > Note the strong drop after the first two queries.
> >
> > (And what is #5?  Japanese?  What does it say?)
>
> Google Translate says it is Japanese for "open Office" (sic)
>
> > So what does this all mean?
> >
> > A. Users are not consistent about whether the name is one word or two.
> >  Maybe they hear about the name by ear?  Or maybe this is just the
> > pull of standard language rules.  The noun is "office" and "open" is
> > an adjective.  It is hard to overcome years of schooling to think of
> > an artificial name like "OpenOffice".
> >
> > B.  The core name in their mind is "OpenOffice"/"Open Office" without
> > the ".org" or the "Apache".  This is what they are searching for when
> > they look for us.
> >
> > Now, one might have a theory that uses searching for "open office" end
> > up on our website by mistake.  Maybe they were searching for something
> > else.  For example, this term is also used to refer to an office
> > seating plan without walls, where everything is open in a big room.
> > This is also an "open office".  However, if I look at only
> > search-directed traffic that actually leads to a download of AOO, the
> > query "open office" and "openoffice" are also at the very top of the
> > list.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications 

Headline points in the 2014 and 2015 school league tables

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.

Re: The Names of OpenOffice (How users are finding our website)

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Ian Lynch  wrote:
> Surprised there is no 开放式办公 (Open Office in Chinese) given the population.
>

Looking further down the list, after the top 10, I see the following
non-English searches:


11.  openoffice ダウンロード

14. open office gratuit

15. опен офис

20. 오픈오피스

24. telecharger open office

26. オープンオフィス無料ダウンロード

27. openoffice 日本語

33. open office pobierz

I can look at the results per search engine, and the most common
queries for Baidu users are still openoffice, open office and
openoffice.org.  So maybe these versions are more familiar than with
Chinese characters?  Or, if that is the preferred term, our website
doesn't use it enough so users don't end up finding our website.   I
only get stats for users who actually visit the website.  If they
search for something and don't find us, then we don't have a record of
that.

-Rob


> Though on a recent trip to China I was surprised at how low the awareness
> was of AOO.
>
>
> On 16 August 2013 13:21, sebb  wrote:
>
>> On 16 August 2013 12:56, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> > And update of data gathered from website visitors.  Of the ones who
>> > come to our website from a search engine results list (and that is 48%
>> > of our total visitors), the top ten search queries, along with a count
>> > of recent visitors, are:
>> >
>> > 1. open office (326,369)
>> > 2. openoffice (213,374)
>> > 3. openoffice download (32,188)
>> > 4. openoffice.org (21,786)
>> > 5. オープンオフィス (13,476)
>> > 6. open office mac (11,307)
>> > 7. apache openoffice (10,576)
>> > 8. open office download (8,964)
>> > 9. openoffice for mac (7,395)
>> > 10. download open office (7,006)
>> >
>> > Note the strong drop after the first two queries.
>> >
>> > (And what is #5?  Japanese?  What does it say?)
>>
>> Google Translate says it is Japanese for "open Office" (sic)
>>
>> > So what does this all mean?
>> >
>> > A. Users are not consistent about whether the name is one word or two.
>> >  Maybe they hear about the name by ear?  Or maybe this is just the
>> > pull of standard language rules.  The noun is "office" and "open" is
>> > an adjective.  It is hard to overcome years of schooling to think of
>> > an artificial name like "OpenOffice".
>> >
>> > B.  The core name in their mind is "OpenOffice"/"Open Office" without
>> > the ".org" or the "Apache".  This is what they are searching for when
>> > they look for us.
>> >
>> > Now, one might have a theory that uses searching for "open office" end
>> > up on our website by mistake.  Maybe they were searching for something
>> > else.  For example, this term is also used to refer to an office
>> > seating plan without walls, where everything is open in a big room.
>> > This is also an "open office".  However, if I look at only
>> > search-directed traffic that actually leads to a download of AOO, the
>> > query "open office" and "openoffice" are also at the very top of the
>> > list.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > -Rob
>> >
>> > -
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>> >
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ian
>
> Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications 
>
> Headline points in the 2014 and 2015 school league tables
>
> www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
>
> The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
> Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
> Wales.

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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Hagar Delest]

I've downloaded OOo several times in the past through torrents because it was 
much faster. And I noticed that my file was also shared at a not negligible 
rate.

I think this is something worth implementing. I'm not from a generation that is 
used to download but I think that many (young) users look at this way first.

Hagar


> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
>

> 2013/8/16 :
> > Reported on the forum:
> > http://torrentfreak.com/microsoft-censors-openoffice-download-links-130814/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
> >
> 
> The URLs mentioned in the article look scary to me, with version that
> never really existed, like "3.3.2". As you know there are several
> websites that claim to offer OpenOffice downloads but then bundle it
> with adware. I wouldn't assume that torrents are any safer.
> 
> It would be worth asking if anyone really needs AOO torrents and
> whether we should look at providing official ones.
> 
> -Rob
> 
> > Hagar
> >
> > Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous 
> > tente ?
> > Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> 
> 

Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous tente ?
Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net

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Re: AOO on Debian/Ubuntu via APT Repositories

[BRM]

Regardless, I think this is something the AOO community should support at least 
until distributions such as Debian and Ubuntu start shipping AOO.
Adding the source packages is probably not a very big thing to do (Marcelo?), 
but any help from the AOO Dev community should certainly help get it there.

That said, it would also be nice to see some KDE integration. Using Marcelo's 
repo I did install it, but since I use KDE I don't get the benefit of file 
registrations, menus, etc.
The GNOME package was provided by AOO. Please do a KDE one too.

These things are little things that will help adoption of AOO go a long ways.

$0.02,

Ben

> From: RA Stehmann 

> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 3:33 AM
> Subject: Re: AOO on Debian/Ubuntu via APT Repositories
> 
> Hello Mike,
> 
> I watched my wife packaging two little programs for the Debian
> repository (she's  not finished yet, but on a good way.)
> 
> My resume is:
> 
> It's one thing putting AOO into some deb packages. But it's another
> thing packing AOO in a proper way, so it's fit fpr the Debian repository.
> 
> The second thing is a very hard job and IMO impossible without the
> friendly support of experienced Debian Developers.
> 
> Just my two cents.
> 
> Regards
> Michael
> 
> On 16.08.2013 04:26, Mike Dupont wrote:
>>  Hello,
>>  because there are no source packages in debian format the packages
>>  will not be accepted officially.
>> 
>

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Re: The Names of OpenOffice (How users are finding our website)

[Ian Lynch]

Yes 26 seems to be Japanese. Difficult to know if Chinese are just more
ready to use English - my limited experience seemed to suggest otherwise
since few spoke English at the recent international university education
conference I was speaking at. Had an interpreter, line by line. No-one
seemed to know much about FOSS. Perhaps we just have a very big potential
but untapped market in China ;-).


On 16 August 2013 14:45, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Ian Lynch  wrote:
> > Surprised there is no 开放式办公 (Open Office in Chinese) given the
> population.
> >
>
> Looking further down the list, after the top 10, I see the following
> non-English searches:
>
>
> 11.  openoffice ダウンロード
>
> 14. open office gratuit
>
> 15. опен офис
>
> 20. 오픈오피스
>
> 24. telecharger open office
>
> 26. オープンオフィス無料ダウンロード
>
> 27. openoffice 日本語
>
> 33. open office pobierz
>
> I can look at the results per search engine, and the most common
> queries for Baidu users are still openoffice, open office and
> openoffice.org.  So maybe these versions are more familiar than with
> Chinese characters?  Or, if that is the preferred term, our website
> doesn't use it enough so users don't end up finding our website.   I
> only get stats for users who actually visit the website.  If they
> search for something and don't find us, then we don't have a record of
> that.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> > Though on a recent trip to China I was surprised at how low the awareness
> > was of AOO.
> >
> >
> > On 16 August 2013 13:21, sebb  wrote:
> >
> >> On 16 August 2013 12:56, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >> > And update of data gathered from website visitors.  Of the ones who
> >> > come to our website from a search engine results list (and that is 48%
> >> > of our total visitors), the top ten search queries, along with a count
> >> > of recent visitors, are:
> >> >
> >> > 1. open office (326,369)
> >> > 2. openoffice (213,374)
> >> > 3. openoffice download (32,188)
> >> > 4. openoffice.org (21,786)
> >> > 5. オープンオフィス (13,476)
> >> > 6. open office mac (11,307)
> >> > 7. apache openoffice (10,576)
> >> > 8. open office download (8,964)
> >> > 9. openoffice for mac (7,395)
> >> > 10. download open office (7,006)
> >> >
> >> > Note the strong drop after the first two queries.
> >> >
> >> > (And what is #5?  Japanese?  What does it say?)
> >>
> >> Google Translate says it is Japanese for "open Office" (sic)
> >>
> >> > So what does this all mean?
> >> >
> >> > A. Users are not consistent about whether the name is one word or two.
> >> >  Maybe they hear about the name by ear?  Or maybe this is just the
> >> > pull of standard language rules.  The noun is "office" and "open" is
> >> > an adjective.  It is hard to overcome years of schooling to think of
> >> > an artificial name like "OpenOffice".
> >> >
> >> > B.  The core name in their mind is "OpenOffice"/"Open Office" without
> >> > the ".org" or the "Apache".  This is what they are searching for when
> >> > they look for us.
> >> >
> >> > Now, one might have a theory that uses searching for "open office" end
> >> > up on our website by mistake.  Maybe they were searching for something
> >> > else.  For example, this term is also used to refer to an office
> >> > seating plan without walls, where everything is open in a big room.
> >> > This is also an "open office".  However, if I look at only
> >> > search-directed traffic that actually leads to a download of AOO, the
> >> > query "open office" and "openoffice" are also at the very top of the
> >> > list.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> >
> >> > -Rob
> >> >
> >> > -
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> >> >
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ian
> >
> > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications <
> https://theingots.org/community/faq#7.0>
> >
> > Headline points in the 2014 and 2015 school league tables
> >
> > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
> >
> > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
> > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
> > Wales.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications 

Headline points in the 2014 and 2015 school league tables

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.

Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Hagar Delest wrote:

> I've downloaded OOo several times in the past through torrents because it
> was much faster. And I noticed that my file was also shared at a not
> negligible rate.
>
> I think this is something worth implementing. I'm not from a generation
> that is used to download but I think that many (young) users look at this
> way first.
>
> Hagar
>
>
> > Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
> >
>
> > 2013/8/16 :
> > > Reported on the forum:
> > >
> http://torrentfreak.com/microsoft-censors-openoffice-download-links-130814/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
> > >
> >
> > The URLs mentioned in the article look scary to me, with version that
> > never really existed, like "3.3.2". As you know there are several
> > websites that claim to offer OpenOffice downloads but then bundle it
> > with adware. I wouldn't assume that torrents are any safer.
> >
> > It would be worth asking if anyone really needs AOO torrents and
> > whether we should look at providing official ones.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> > > Hagar
>

We discussed this last year in a thread titled "BItTorrents -- do we care?"
last posted to on 16 October 2012.  General consensus seemed to be
favorable.  What's Infra's take on bittorrent?

Don

Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Donald Whytock  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Hagar Delest 
> wrote:
>
>> I've downloaded OOo several times in the past through torrents because it
>> was much faster. And I noticed that my file was also shared at a not
>> negligible rate.
>>
>> I think this is something worth implementing. I'm not from a generation
>> that is used to download but I think that many (young) users look at this
>> way first.
>>
>> Hagar
>>
>>
>> > Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
>> >
>>
>> > 2013/8/16 :
>> > > Reported on the forum:
>> > >
>> http://torrentfreak.com/microsoft-censors-openoffice-download-links-130814/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
>> > >
>> >
>> > The URLs mentioned in the article look scary to me, with version that
>> > never really existed, like "3.3.2". As you know there are several
>> > websites that claim to offer OpenOffice downloads but then bundle it
>> > with adware. I wouldn't assume that torrents are any safer.
>> >
>> > It would be worth asking if anyone really needs AOO torrents and
>> > whether we should look at providing official ones.
>> >
>> > -Rob
>> >
>> > > Hagar
>>
>
> We discussed this last year in a thread titled "BItTorrents -- do we care?"
> last posted to on 16 October 2012.  General consensus seemed to be
> favorable.  What's Infra's take on bittorrent?
>

Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
fine with distribution via the mirrors.

Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of priority.
Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
installers, and further buildbot  coverage, where do torrents rate?

-Rob


> Don

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Help wanted: Updating the Japanese Language Homepage

[Rob Weir]

The Japanese version of AOO is very popular.  It is one of our top
downloads, #5 on the list:

http://www.openoffice.org/stats/countries.html

However our Japanese home page is in bad shape, with outdated
information, broken links, old logos, etc..

See it here:   http://www.openoffice.org/ja/

Do we have anyone who can help?   I am willing to help on the
technical side of this, committing patches, etc.  But I don't
understand any Japanese.  So I need some help from the NL community.

Thanks!

-Rob

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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Hagar Delest]

> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
> Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
> that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
> fine with distribution via the mirrors.
> 
> Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of priority.
> Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
> installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?

Of course it's not a priority.
But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it spreads by 
itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need powerful resources for 
the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I guess. And then let the 
torrent spread among users.

A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is still doing and 
rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback when information is 
forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a torrent a first for ASF?

Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a niche program, 
it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it yourself when you inform 
the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers torrents for example.

If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has even 
tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on the other 
side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at marketing their project.

Hagar

Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous tente ?
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Re: AOO on Debian/Ubuntu via APT Repositories

[Marcelo Santana]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 09:33:16 +0200, RA Stehmann
 wrote:

Hello Michael,

> I watched my wife packaging two little programs for the Debian
> repository (she's  not finished yet, but on a good way.)
> 
> My resume is:
> 
> It's one thing putting AOO into some deb packages. But it's another
> thing packing AOO in a proper way, so it's fit fpr the Debian
> repository.
> 
> The second thing is a very hard job and IMO impossible without the
> friendly support of experienced Debian Developers.

I absolutely agree with you, mainly with some complex things as the
AOO's deb packages. I was trying to understand how it was done with
LibreOffice deb packages[1] but I was worried whether I could take
advantage of what was already done because of the license. IMHO it
isn't a working for a only person, mainly thinking about the packaging
quality to be accept as an official Debian package in the future. I
believe would be good to maintain it by a team.

*PS: BTW does anybody know how the AOO's Debian packages are built?
By chance are they converted from RPM to DEB via alien? Who is the
responsible for the deb packages building process?

*PS2: I'm sorry for my not so good English.

Regards,

--
Marcelo G. Santana (aka msantana) | GNU/Linux User number: #208778
  http://blog.msantana.eng.br | http://identi.ca/mgsantana
  http://www.debianbrasil.org | http://br.gnome.org   
 GnuPG fprint: 88FB 5D63 ED02 3B5D 90D6  3A3E 8698 1CC9 89C5 5467


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Re: Some thoughts on quality

[Kay Schenk]

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:35 PM, sebb  wrote:

> On 14 August 2013 23:10, Rob Weir  wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Marcus (OOo) 
> wrote:
> >> Am 08/14/2013 10:05 PM, schrieb Hagar Delest:
> >>
> >>> Le 14/08/2013 21:39, Rob Weir a écrit :
> 
>  Maybe we need to call an earlier build the "RC" so it will get more
>  attention? We had a complete test build that we were testing for
>  over a month. But maybe it is ignored unless we call it an "RC"? In
>  other words, there were many opportunities for users to help try 4.0
>  before it was released, but maybe there opportunities were not well
>  known.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I think that it was too difficult to get to the dev versions and it was
> >>> too much complicated. There was no clear link to download a dev version
> >>> (I had to rely on the url in the messages from the dev list).
> >>
> >>
> >> This was intended.
> >>
> >> We hadn't published the dev builds via Apache or SF mirrors but only on
> 2
> >> people accounts. Apache policy says it's not allowed to publish them
> for a
> >> wider audience to save the servers from a high traffic load. It's the
> job of
> >> the mirrors to handle this.
> >>
> >>
> >>> What I see (from a standard user point of view) for a RC:
> >>> - When a dev version is almost done, rename it RC and make it known
> >>> (blog and we would relay the announcement in the forums of course)
> >>> - Have a link visible under the main download button of the download
> >>
> >>
> >> Both can be done, depending where the install files are located.
> >>
> >>
> >>> page (perhaps a similar button as a dedicated entry)
> >>> - Make that RC installable in parallel with a stable version
> >>> - No file association allowed for that RC by design
> >>
> >>
> >> IMHO the last both points doesn't apply to a RC [1] as it wouldn't be a
> RC
> >> anymore. One of the RC attributes is to change it into the final release
> >> with, e.g., just a file name change. But this has to be done without any
> >> code changes. Otherwise you have to change code parts, build again, test
> >> again, ... ;-)
> >>
> >> But a Beta release could go this separated way.
> >>
> >
> > Right.  A release is a release is a release.  The basic requirements
> > for every release still apply:
> >
> > 1) 3 PMC +1 votes
> > 2) Must include source files
> > 3) Digital signatures, hash files, etc.
> >
> > But we can have a "beta release", that follows these rules, and it
> > would be acceptable.  We can then host on the mirrors, publicize, etc.
>
> There would likely be some restrictions on how many extra downloads
> are permitted.
> For example, the ASF mirrors probably could not cope with a set of
> betas of all the languages for all the OSes in addition to the current
> GA release.
>

Looking again at this thread, and knowing the amount of time and resources
it takes to actually mount an approved release, I wonder if some of the
issues we had with the 4.0 release could have been addressed by a longer RC
vote timeframe -- like 2 weeks or so. The vote this time was relatively
short as I recall on both the original RC and RC2.  We have over 400 people
on this list. I would hope given a longer test period, we might receive
better testing and feedback if we took a bit longer for approval.

I realize this is not the same as a beta -- we would still be using
"development snapshots", but the RC could be provided in all languages we
intend to use, etc.




> -
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>


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-
MzK

"When in doubt, cop an attitude."
-- Cat laws

Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest  wrote:
>> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
>> Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
>> that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
>> fine with distribution via the mirrors.
>>
>> Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of priority.
>> Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
>> installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?
>
> Of course it's not a priority.
> But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it spreads by 
> itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need powerful resources for 
> the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I guess. And then let the 
> torrent spread among users.
>
> A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is still doing 
> and rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback when information 
> is forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a torrent a first for 
> ASF?
>
> Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a niche 
> program, it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it yourself when 
> you inform the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers torrents for 
> example.
>

AOO is popular.  Torrents are not.  I bet that <1% of downloads were
of torrent, when OOo had them.

Remember, a common question from users is "I just downloaded
OpenOffice and now I cannot find it".  So skill level of typical user
is not ideal for explaining how to download via P2P.

> If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has even 
> tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on the other 
> side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at marketing their 
> project.
>

1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
would be an interesting number to know.

2. This is not a question of avoiding doing something new.  It is a
question of prioritization based on cost and benefit.

3. Torrents are not even new. They are old technology.

4. There is nothing to prevent someone from seeding a torrent for AOO
today, right now if you thought it was important.  It does not need to
come from Apache.

Regards,

-Rob

> Hagar
>
> Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous 
> tente ?
> Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
>
> -
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>

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Re: Changes needed for /main/solenv/inc/minor.mk in AOO401 branch and trunk

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:

> On 8/15/13 9:59 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
> > Am 08/15/2013 08:25 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk:
> >> I think build number, etc needs updating for our current work in the
> >> AOO401
> >> branch and trunk. I don't know how this information gets determined and
> >> changed.
> >
> > Just open a BZ issue and assign it to Juergen. I'm confident that he
> > will take care to change all necessary data. And when committing it's
> > also documented in the issue.
> >
> >> Using existing build/version information is problematic for parallel
> >> installs (n multiple VMs) in Linux.
>
> I have done this
>
> AOO401 branch:
> RSCVERSION=401
> RSCREVISION=401m1(Build:9710)
> BUILD=9710
> LAST_MINOR=m1
> SOURCEVERSION=AOO401
>
> Trunk:
> RSCVERSION=410
> RSCREVISION=410m1(Build:9750)
> BUILD=9750
> LAST_MINOR=m1
> SOURCEVERSION=AOO410
>
> We still have some redundancy here and we should analyze where
> exactly these values are used.
>
> Build number is have to be in the range of unsigned short because of
> usage in the windows installer/registry
>
> Anyway for now we have room for some builds for AOO 4.0.1
>
>
> Juergen
>

thank you. I need to rebuild now but this will solve my parallel install
problem. :)


>
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> >
>
>
> -
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>
>


-- 
-
MzK

"When in doubt, cop an attitude."
-- Cat laws

Re: AOO on Debian/Ubuntu via APT Repositories

[Marcelo Santana]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:25:09 -0300, Marcelo Santana
 wrote:
> 
> Hello Michael,
> 
> > I watched my wife packaging two little programs for the Debian
> > repository (she's  not finished yet, but on a good way.)
> > 
> > My resume is:
> > 
> > It's one thing putting AOO into some deb packages. But it's another
> > thing packing AOO in a proper way, so it's fit fpr the Debian
> > repository.
> > 
> > The second thing is a very hard job and IMO impossible without the
> > friendly support of experienced Debian Developers.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you, mainly with some complex things as the
> AOO's deb packages. I was trying to understand how it was done with
> LibreOffice deb packages[1] but I was worried whether I could take
> advantage of what was already done because of the license. IMHO it
> isn't a working for a only person, mainly thinking about the packaging
> quality to be accept as an official Debian package in the future. I
> believe would be good to maintain it by a team.

[1]http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-openoffice/libreoffice.git
 
> *PS: BTW does anybody know how the AOO's Debian packages are built?
> By chance are they converted from RPM to DEB via alien? Who is the
> responsible for the deb packages building process?
> 
> *PS2: I'm sorry for my not so good English.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> --
> Marcelo G. Santana (aka msantana) | GNU/Linux User number: #208778
>   http://blog.msantana.eng.br | http://identi.ca/mgsantana
>   http://www.debianbrasil.org | http://br.gnome.org   
>  GnuPG fprint: 88FB 5D63 ED02 3B5D 90D6  3A3E 8698 1CC9 89C5 5467


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Some thoughts on quality

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:35 PM, sebb  wrote:
>
>> On 14 August 2013 23:10, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Marcus (OOo) 
>> wrote:
>> >> Am 08/14/2013 10:05 PM, schrieb Hagar Delest:
>> >>
>> >>> Le 14/08/2013 21:39, Rob Weir a écrit :
>> 
>>  Maybe we need to call an earlier build the "RC" so it will get more
>>  attention? We had a complete test build that we were testing for
>>  over a month. But maybe it is ignored unless we call it an "RC"? In
>>  other words, there were many opportunities for users to help try 4.0
>>  before it was released, but maybe there opportunities were not well
>>  known.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I think that it was too difficult to get to the dev versions and it was
>> >>> too much complicated. There was no clear link to download a dev version
>> >>> (I had to rely on the url in the messages from the dev list).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This was intended.
>> >>
>> >> We hadn't published the dev builds via Apache or SF mirrors but only on
>> 2
>> >> people accounts. Apache policy says it's not allowed to publish them
>> for a
>> >> wider audience to save the servers from a high traffic load. It's the
>> job of
>> >> the mirrors to handle this.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> What I see (from a standard user point of view) for a RC:
>> >>> - When a dev version is almost done, rename it RC and make it known
>> >>> (blog and we would relay the announcement in the forums of course)
>> >>> - Have a link visible under the main download button of the download
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Both can be done, depending where the install files are located.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> page (perhaps a similar button as a dedicated entry)
>> >>> - Make that RC installable in parallel with a stable version
>> >>> - No file association allowed for that RC by design
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> IMHO the last both points doesn't apply to a RC [1] as it wouldn't be a
>> RC
>> >> anymore. One of the RC attributes is to change it into the final release
>> >> with, e.g., just a file name change. But this has to be done without any
>> >> code changes. Otherwise you have to change code parts, build again, test
>> >> again, ... ;-)
>> >>
>> >> But a Beta release could go this separated way.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Right.  A release is a release is a release.  The basic requirements
>> > for every release still apply:
>> >
>> > 1) 3 PMC +1 votes
>> > 2) Must include source files
>> > 3) Digital signatures, hash files, etc.
>> >
>> > But we can have a "beta release", that follows these rules, and it
>> > would be acceptable.  We can then host on the mirrors, publicize, etc.
>>
>> There would likely be some restrictions on how many extra downloads
>> are permitted.
>> For example, the ASF mirrors probably could not cope with a set of
>> betas of all the languages for all the OSes in addition to the current
>> GA release.
>>
>
> Looking again at this thread, and knowing the amount of time and resources
> it takes to actually mount an approved release, I wonder if some of the
> issues we had with the 4.0 release could have been addressed by a longer RC
> vote timeframe -- like 2 weeks or so. The vote this time was relatively
> short as I recall on both the original RC and RC2.  We have over 400 people
> on this list. I would hope given a longer test period, we might receive
> better testing and feedback if we took a bit longer for approval.
>

You can answer that question yourself.  Look at the bugs that we're
fixing in 4.0.1.  Which of those would have been found if the same
project members spent two more weeks reviewing the same code?

I doubt it would have made much of a difference.  The slow Excel
saving bug, for example, was in the code since November 2012.  So this
is not question of time.   I'm hoping we can all look closely at the
facts and come to a similar conclusion.

The basic concept here is "defect yield", which is a measure of what %
of the defects in the code are found by a given testing technique.
We can consider the formal QA test cases as one technique.  We can
consider the PMC voting period as another "testing technique",
although an informal one.  We could consider beta testing, automated
testing, etc., all as different techniques.

Hopefully it is clear that the defect yield of a technique does not
increase greatly by spending more time doing it.  For example, suppose
our test cases were capable of finding 25% of the bugs in the code.
So we run the test cases once and find 23% of the bugs.  We don't get
25% because of human error in testing.  We could double the amount of
time spent testing and run all the tests again.  That might get us to
24%.   Not a very efficient use of incremental time.

Ditto for PMC voting.  The informal testing is going to just poke at
the surface.  It will have some bug yield, less than the formal
testing did.  But we all have our usage patterns, the subset of
features that we use.   It is very likely that in two wee

Re: AOO on Debian/Ubuntu via APT Repositories

[Marcelo Santana]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 08:12:50 -0700 (PDT), BRM 
wrote:

Hello Ben,

[...]

> Adding the source packages is probably not a very big thing to do
> (Marcelo?), but any help from the AOO Dev community should certainly
> help get it there.

As far as I know it isn't a simple task, mainly thinking about
maintaining it as an official package from Debian and/or derivative
distributions. As I said before IMHO maybe it would be good to start a
team to maintain the deb package and create the path for its accepting
as an official Debian package in the future.

Regard,

--
Marcelo G. Santana (aka msantana) | GNU/Linux User number: #208778
  http://blog.msantana.eng.br | http://identi.ca/mgsantana
  http://www.debianbrasil.org | http://br.gnome.org   
 GnuPG fprint: 88FB 5D63 ED02 3B5D 90D6  3A3E 8698 1CC9 89C5 5467


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Some thoughts on quality

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 6:55 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
> On 15/08/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> A thought experiment:   If we ran the existing test automation on
>> 4.0.0, how many of the bugs that we're fixing in 4.0.1 do you think
>> would be detected?
>
>
> I would expect this 4.0.1 blocker issue (wrong results in certain Calc
> functions) to be detectable by automated testing:
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=122997
>

I don't believe this is actually covered in our test automation.  So
maybe the actual root causes is that there were no test cases for this
function.  If there were test cases then the defect could have been
detected by manual or automated testing.  I agree with you that
spreadsheets functions lend themselves to automated testing.  But the
problem here was not lack of automation.  It was lack of a test case,
period.

-Rob

> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
>
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Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.

[Ricardo Berlasso]

2013/8/16 

> No problem, we will open tickets in BZ in the future.
>
> Ricardo knows about the signature IIRC (don't remember if he talked about
> it on the list or in the forum). But I don't remember if it can be changed
> in the admin panel (I don't have the full rights). I would say that it's a
> PHPMOD that needs some tweaking in the configuration file on the server
> directly but not 100% sure.
>

Well, I learn about the signature problem on the forum, when someone else
reported the it ;)

It's not possible for local admins, even with full admin rights, to access
the signature regex system. Admins can only change the capcha and a couple
of other security settings so this need a "super admin".

Regards
Ricardo



>
> Hagar
>
>
> > Objet : Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.
> >
>
> > On Aug 16, 2013 12:42 PM,  wrote:
> > >
> > > Many thanks too!
> > >
> > > I don't think there was a BZ report for that since we used to handle
> such
> > changes internally to the forum in the past.
> >
> > thats quite ok, but can we for the future agree that issues req. vm
> access
> > to solve is reported in BZ.
> >
> > thx
> > jan i
> >
> > ps, I dont know if sinature could have been done by an admin in evrey
> > forum, I could not find it in admin panel (and it would have req. many
> > admins)
> > >
> > > Hagar
> > >
> > >
> > > > Objet : Re: missing BZ for forum 4.0 signature.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > 2013/8/15 janI
> > > >
> > > > > hi.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have solved the 4.0 signature problem in all forums, thanks to an
> > > > > excellent hint from terry.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Great! Many thanks!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > However I cannot find the BZ relating to signatures, is is just
> > because I
> > > > > cannot see the wood for trees, or was it never filed ?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It seems it was never filled. At least, I cannot find it either. It
> was
> > > > commented on the forums and on the mailing list, but I cannot
> remember
> > > > anyone providing a bug report number.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Ricardo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > rgds
> > > > > jan I.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça
> vous
> > tente ?
> > > Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> > >
> >
>
> Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous
> tente ?
> Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: New volunteer introduction

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 2:16 AM, sumit Murari  wrote:

> thnks for reply :)
>
> I can do development in C,C++ or JAVA, and frankly i want to contribute
> something. I just use  OSS,  for my work and haven't done any contribution
> yet, so it doesn't feels nice ..
>
> I'm comfortable with development, but i don't know, where to start and how
> to start .
>

OK, thanks for this information. If you've finished the general orientation
modules on how the project works, I think you should take a look at the
developer orientation:

http://openoffice.apache.org/orientation/intro-development.html

As a first step, you could download and build Apache OpenOffice.

Also on the Developer orientation page above is a link to "easy hacks" to
get you started on actual code changes.

Our development information documentation is  in need of an organizational
update, but I think you will find the api area contains a LOT of useful
information:

http://www.openoffice.org/api/

(use the left hand navigation items instead of the "search")

This will give you a nice overview of the structure of the program modules
and what area does what.

Thanks again for wanting to join Apache OpenOffice. We want your
participation to be rewarding, and we're here to help.



>
>
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 4:45 AM, sumit Murari 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > hello all, My name is timus, i've been using OpenOffice, and many OSS,
> > now
> > > i want to contribute some to openOffice.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm from India, and i'm interested in contributing to OpenOffice.
> > >  I've never contributed in any OSS so far, my contribution was limited
> to
> > > using software sending statistics and sending the crash report if i
> > > encountered any.
> > > Looking for anyone who can guide me ...
> > >
> > > Any help will be appreciated ..
> > >
> >
> >
> > Hello timus and it's great that you want to get involved with OpenOffice.
> > It would help if we had an idea of what areas you would like to help
> with.
> >
> > Some of our major areas, aside from direct user support through the
> Forums
> > or "users" list, are discussed in the orientation modules:
> >
> > http://openoffice.apache.org/orientation/index.html
> >
> > So, if you can tell us a little more about what you'd like to do, we can
> > assist you with your OpenOffice volunteer efforts better.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> -
> > MzK
> >
> > "When in doubt, cop an attitude."
> > -- Cat laws
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *Sumit*
>



-- 
-
MzK

"When in doubt, cop an attitude."
-- Cat laws

Re: Some thoughts on quality

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 9:47 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:35 PM, sebb  wrote:
> >
> >> On 14 August 2013 23:10, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Marcus (OOo) 
> >> wrote:
> >> >> Am 08/14/2013 10:05 PM, schrieb Hagar Delest:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Le 14/08/2013 21:39, Rob Weir a écrit :
> >> 
> >>  Maybe we need to call an earlier build the "RC" so it will get more
> >>  attention? We had a complete test build that we were testing for
> >>  over a month. But maybe it is ignored unless we call it an "RC"? In
> >>  other words, there were many opportunities for users to help try
> 4.0
> >>  before it was released, but maybe there opportunities were not well
> >>  known.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I think that it was too difficult to get to the dev versions and it
> was
> >> >>> too much complicated. There was no clear link to download a dev
> version
> >> >>> (I had to rely on the url in the messages from the dev list).
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> This was intended.
> >> >>
> >> >> We hadn't published the dev builds via Apache or SF mirrors but only
> on
> >> 2
> >> >> people accounts. Apache policy says it's not allowed to publish them
> >> for a
> >> >> wider audience to save the servers from a high traffic load. It's the
> >> job of
> >> >> the mirrors to handle this.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> What I see (from a standard user point of view) for a RC:
> >> >>> - When a dev version is almost done, rename it RC and make it known
> >> >>> (blog and we would relay the announcement in the forums of course)
> >> >>> - Have a link visible under the main download button of the download
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Both can be done, depending where the install files are located.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> page (perhaps a similar button as a dedicated entry)
> >> >>> - Make that RC installable in parallel with a stable version
> >> >>> - No file association allowed for that RC by design
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> IMHO the last both points doesn't apply to a RC [1] as it wouldn't
> be a
> >> RC
> >> >> anymore. One of the RC attributes is to change it into the final
> release
> >> >> with, e.g., just a file name change. But this has to be done without
> any
> >> >> code changes. Otherwise you have to change code parts, build again,
> test
> >> >> again, ... ;-)
> >> >>
> >> >> But a Beta release could go this separated way.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Right.  A release is a release is a release.  The basic requirements
> >> > for every release still apply:
> >> >
> >> > 1) 3 PMC +1 votes
> >> > 2) Must include source files
> >> > 3) Digital signatures, hash files, etc.
> >> >
> >> > But we can have a "beta release", that follows these rules, and it
> >> > would be acceptable.  We can then host on the mirrors, publicize, etc.
> >>
> >> There would likely be some restrictions on how many extra downloads
> >> are permitted.
> >> For example, the ASF mirrors probably could not cope with a set of
> >> betas of all the languages for all the OSes in addition to the current
> >> GA release.
> >>
> >
> > Looking again at this thread, and knowing the amount of time and
> resources
> > it takes to actually mount an approved release, I wonder if some of the
> > issues we had with the 4.0 release could have been addressed by a longer
> RC
> > vote timeframe -- like 2 weeks or so. The vote this time was relatively
> > short as I recall on both the original RC and RC2.  We have over 400
> people
> > on this list. I would hope given a longer test period, we might receive
> > better testing and feedback if we took a bit longer for approval.
> >
>
> You can answer that question yourself.  Look at the bugs that we're
> fixing in 4.0.1.  Which of those would have been found if the same
> project members spent two more weeks reviewing the same code?
>

Well this was my point. Not the same members, but different members on this
list who, due to the timeframe we had for voting on the RC, were not
available for more extensive testing. It is the psychological difference
between a "developer snapshot" and an RC candidate.


> I doubt it would have made much of a difference.  The slow Excel
> saving bug, for example, was in the code since November 2012.  So this
> is not question of time.   I'm hoping we can all look closely at the
> facts and come to a similar conclusion.
>
> The basic concept here is "defect yield", which is a measure of what %
> of the defects in the code are found by a given testing technique.
> We can consider the formal QA test cases as one technique.  We can
> consider the PMC voting period as another "testing technique",
> although an informal one.  We could consider beta testing, automated
> testing, etc., all as different techniques.
>
> Hopefully it is clear that the defect yield of a technique does not
> increase greatly by spending more time doing it.  For example, suppose
> our test cases were capable of finding

Re: Some thoughts on quality

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 9:47 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
>> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:35 PM, sebb  wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 14 August 2013 23:10, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> >> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Marcus (OOo) 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> Am 08/14/2013 10:05 PM, schrieb Hagar Delest:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Le 14/08/2013 21:39, Rob Weir a écrit :
>> >> 
>> >>  Maybe we need to call an earlier build the "RC" so it will get more
>> >>  attention? We had a complete test build that we were testing for
>> >>  over a month. But maybe it is ignored unless we call it an "RC"? In
>> >>  other words, there were many opportunities for users to help try
>> 4.0
>> >>  before it was released, but maybe there opportunities were not well
>> >>  known.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think that it was too difficult to get to the dev versions and it
>> was
>> >> >>> too much complicated. There was no clear link to download a dev
>> version
>> >> >>> (I had to rely on the url in the messages from the dev list).
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This was intended.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We hadn't published the dev builds via Apache or SF mirrors but only
>> on
>> >> 2
>> >> >> people accounts. Apache policy says it's not allowed to publish them
>> >> for a
>> >> >> wider audience to save the servers from a high traffic load. It's the
>> >> job of
>> >> >> the mirrors to handle this.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> What I see (from a standard user point of view) for a RC:
>> >> >>> - When a dev version is almost done, rename it RC and make it known
>> >> >>> (blog and we would relay the announcement in the forums of course)
>> >> >>> - Have a link visible under the main download button of the download
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Both can be done, depending where the install files are located.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> page (perhaps a similar button as a dedicated entry)
>> >> >>> - Make that RC installable in parallel with a stable version
>> >> >>> - No file association allowed for that RC by design
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> IMHO the last both points doesn't apply to a RC [1] as it wouldn't
>> be a
>> >> RC
>> >> >> anymore. One of the RC attributes is to change it into the final
>> release
>> >> >> with, e.g., just a file name change. But this has to be done without
>> any
>> >> >> code changes. Otherwise you have to change code parts, build again,
>> test
>> >> >> again, ... ;-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But a Beta release could go this separated way.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Right.  A release is a release is a release.  The basic requirements
>> >> > for every release still apply:
>> >> >
>> >> > 1) 3 PMC +1 votes
>> >> > 2) Must include source files
>> >> > 3) Digital signatures, hash files, etc.
>> >> >
>> >> > But we can have a "beta release", that follows these rules, and it
>> >> > would be acceptable.  We can then host on the mirrors, publicize, etc.
>> >>
>> >> There would likely be some restrictions on how many extra downloads
>> >> are permitted.
>> >> For example, the ASF mirrors probably could not cope with a set of
>> >> betas of all the languages for all the OSes in addition to the current
>> >> GA release.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Looking again at this thread, and knowing the amount of time and
>> resources
>> > it takes to actually mount an approved release, I wonder if some of the
>> > issues we had with the 4.0 release could have been addressed by a longer
>> RC
>> > vote timeframe -- like 2 weeks or so. The vote this time was relatively
>> > short as I recall on both the original RC and RC2.  We have over 400
>> people
>> > on this list. I would hope given a longer test period, we might receive
>> > better testing and feedback if we took a bit longer for approval.
>> >
>>
>> You can answer that question yourself.  Look at the bugs that we're
>> fixing in 4.0.1.  Which of those would have been found if the same
>> project members spent two more weeks reviewing the same code?
>>
>
> Well this was my point. Not the same members, but different members on this
> list who, due to the timeframe we had for voting on the RC, were not
> available for more extensive testing. It is the psychological difference
> between a "developer snapshot" and an RC candidate.
>

But then you have the fact that one of the more serious bugs was in
the code since November.  So time alone is not the solution.   It is
how we use the time that counts.

-Rob


>
>> I doubt it would have made much of a difference.  The slow Excel
>> saving bug, for example, was in the code since November 2012.  So this
>> is not question of time.   I'm hoping we can all look closely at the
>> facts and come to a similar conclusion.
>>
>> The basic concept here is "defect yield", which is a measure of what %
>> of the defects in the code are found by a given testing technique.
>> We can consider the formal QA test cases as one technique.  We can
>> consider the

Re: The Names of OpenOffice (How users are finding our website)

[Marcus (OOo)]

Am 08/16/2013 01:56 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:

And update of data gathered from website visitors.  Of the ones who
come to our website from a search engine results list (and that is 48%
of our total visitors), the top ten search queries, along with a count
of recent visitors, are:

1. open office (326,369)
2. openoffice (213,374)
3. openoffice download (32,188)
4. openoffice.org (21,786)
5. オープンオフィス (13,476)
6. open office mac (11,307)
7. apache openoffice (10,576)
8. open office download (8,964)
9. openoffice for mac (7,395)
10. download open office (7,006)

Note the strong drop after the first two queries.

(And what is #5?  Japanese?  What does it say?)


http://translate.google.de/?q=%E3%82%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%97%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AA%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%82%B9&oe=utf-8&hl=en

;-)


So what does this all mean?

A. Users are not consistent about whether the name is one word or two.
  Maybe they hear about the name by ear?  Or maybe this is just the
pull of standard language rules.  The noun is "office" and "open" is
an adjective.  It is hard to overcome years of schooling to think of
an artificial name like "OpenOffice".


Or it's just how they read it from some press atricles. Very often they 
write it just wrong.



B.  The core name in their mind is "OpenOffice"/"Open Office" without
the ".org" or the "Apache".  This is what they are searching for when
they look for us.

Now, one might have a theory that uses searching for "open office" end
up on our website by mistake.  Maybe they were searching for something
else.  For example, this term is also used to refer to an office
seating plan without walls, where everything is open in a big room.
This is also an "open office".  However, if I look at only
search-directed traffic that actually leads to a download of AOO, the
query "open office" and "openoffice" are also at the very top of the
list.

Regards,

-Rob


Marcus

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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest 
> wrote:
> >> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
> >> Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
> >> that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
> >> fine with distribution via the mirrors.
> >>
> >> Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of priority.
> >> Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
> >> installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?
> >
> > Of course it's not a priority.
> > But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it
> spreads by itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need powerful
> resources for the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I guess.
> And then let the torrent spread among users.
> >
> > A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is still
> doing and rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback when
> information is forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a
> torrent a first for ASF?
> >
> > Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a niche
> program, it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it yourself when
> you inform the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers torrents
> for example.
> >
>
> AOO is popular.  Torrents are not.  I bet that <1% of downloads were
> of torrent, when OOo had them.
>
> Remember, a common question from users is "I just downloaded
> OpenOffice and now I cannot find it".  So skill level of typical user
> is not ideal for explaining how to download via P2P.
>
> > If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has
> even tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on
> the other side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at marketing
> their project.
> >
>
> 1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
> would be an interesting number to know.
>
> 2. This is not a question of avoiding doing something new.  It is a
> question of prioritization based on cost and benefit.
>
> 3. Torrents are not even new. They are old technology.
>
> 4. There is nothing to prevent someone from seeding a torrent for AOO
> today, right now if you thought it was important.  It does not need to
> come from Apache.
>
>
Infra could conceivably create torrents for every ASF distro file, probably
on an automated basis.  Were that to happen, the effort by the AOO TLP
would be nil and the effort proportionally related to AOO would be
negligible.

Of course, this could take some significant setup effort on Infra's part,
and if only the AOO torrents were ever used someone might say, "Why are we
doing this for only one TLP?"

It would be best if ASF could do it so as to add legitimacy to the torrent.
 Otherwise, if AOO itself was doing it, it would need to be on a
respected/respectable torrent server, such that we could point to it and
say, "That is the official AOO torrent."

Maybe a cheap 10gig VM?

Don

Re: AOO on Debian/Ubuntu via APT Repositories

[BRM]

> From: Marcelo Santana 

> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: AOO on Debian/Ubuntu via APT Repositories
> 
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 08:12:50 -0700 (PDT), BRM 
> wrote:
> 
> Hello Ben,
> 
> [...]
> 
>>  Adding the source packages is probably not a very big thing to do
>>  (Marcelo?), but any help from the AOO Dev community should certainly
>>  help get it there.
> 
> As far as I know it isn't a simple task, mainly thinking about
> maintaining it as an official package from Debian and/or derivative
> distributions. As I said before IMHO maybe it would be good to start a
> team to maintain the deb package and create the path for its accepting
> as an official Debian package in the future.
> 

Very much agree that that should be the path going forward.
You've done great with it thus far, and much thanks to you for it.

Ben


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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[BRM]

> From: Rob Weir 

> To: "dev@openoffice.apache.org" ; Hagar Delest 
> 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
> 
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest  
> wrote:
>>>  Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
>>>  Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
>>>  that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
>>>  fine with distribution via the mirrors.
>>> 
>>>  Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of 
> priority.
>>>  Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
>>>  installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?
>> 
>>  Of course it's not a priority.
>>  But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it 
> spreads by itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need powerful 
> resources for the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I guess. And 
> then let the torrent spread among users.
>> 
>>  A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is still doing 
> and rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback when information 
> is 
> forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a torrent a first for 
> ASF?
>> 
>>  Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a 
> niche program, it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it yourself 
> when you inform the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers torrents 
> for example.
>> 
> 
> AOO is popular.  Torrents are not.  I bet that <1% of downloads were
> of torrent, when OOo had them.
> 
> Remember, a common question from users is "I just downloaded
> OpenOffice and now I cannot find it".  So skill level of typical user
> is not ideal for explaining how to download via P2P.

I'll add that P2P is not always ideal except for highly popular things.
Once something leaves the popularity (e.g. it's a few months past release, or 
an older version)
than P2P/BitTorrent is very problematic - downloads take a lot longer if 
available at all - as few
users are seeding the P2P networks.

It's certainly been one complaint of mine for various Linux distros that rely 
on P2P networks.

$0.02

Ben

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Example of spreadsheet formula testing

[Rob Weir]

Moving this topic to its own thread.

It should be possible to code a very thorough set of test cases in a
spreadsheet, without using macros or anything fancy.  Just careful
reading of the ODF 1.2 specification and simple spreadsheet logic.

I'd like to share an example of this that I created for one of the ODF
Plugfests.  This is a test of a single function -- YEARFRAC.  You
probably have never touched this function, but it exhibits all the
pathological behavior, in a purer form, of the other financial
functions.  Specifically, it is a pure test of our "date counting
conventions", the various ways that accountants handle date
calculations.

The test document is here:

http://www.robweir.com/basis-test.xls

(I did it in XLS format since I wanted to make sure Microsoft could
use it at the Plugfest as well.  At that time they were not able to
read ODF formulas.)

This is likely the most complicated set of test cases of any
spreadsheet formula.  So if we can test YEARFRAC this way then we can
test any function this way.

Column C is the formula to evaluate.  Column F is the expected value,
which is calculated by hand, according to the ODF standard.  And
colu,mn G reports whether they match or not.  (This would be a good
place for us to use conditional formatting as well, though in the
Plugfest case I needed to make the spreadsheet be as vanilla as
possible so every editor could load it)

Note that this is an exhaustive set of test cases that aim to test
every corner of the formula.  It is a torture test.  Excel gets all
the test cases right.  Not a surprise, since we took Excel's behavior
as normative when writing this part of the standard.

If we used an approach like this on the other spreadsheet functions,
we could have a semi-automated test suite that would practically
guarantee that Calc is free of calculations errors.  Once we're
written the test cases, a modest upfront investment, it will benefit
us with every release we do.  Heck, it would benefit LibreOffice,
Gnumeric, Calligra as well, maybe even Microsoft and Google, though
they might already have such test cases defined internally.

Anyone interesting in helping with this kind of test case development?

Any ideas on how to fully automate this?  ODF 1.2 is very strict, so
we're not starting from a  perfect score.  But we should find an easy
way to report on regressions.

-Rob

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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[David Gerard]

On 16 August 2013 17:32, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest  
> wrote:

>> If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has even 
>> tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on the 
>> other side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at marketing their 
>> project.

> 1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
> would be an interesting number to know.



FWIW, as a user: when I get the latest LO, I always do so by torrent,
and it comes at the speed of my connection (~700kB/sec); when I get
the latest AOO from Sourceforge, it's slower (100-200kB/sec). So I
always go for a torrent of anything that's the least bit popular
(Ubuntu CD images as well).

(sf.net being that slow is odd. Maybe I'm unlucky with which UK mirror
it gives me.)


- d.

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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:54 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> On 16 August 2013 17:32, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest  
>> wrote:
>
>>> If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has even 
>>> tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on the 
>>> other side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at marketing 
>>> their project.
>
>> 1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
>> would be an interesting number to know.
>
>
>
> FWIW, as a user: when I get the latest LO, I always do so by torrent,
> and it comes at the speed of my connection (~700kB/sec); when I get
> the latest AOO from Sourceforge, it's slower (100-200kB/sec). So I
> always go for a torrent of anything that's the least bit popular
> (Ubuntu CD images as well).
>
> (sf.net being that slow is odd. Maybe I'm unlucky with which UK mirror
> it gives me.)
>

That could be.  I get over 1.3 MB/sec from SourceForge, almost twice
what you get by a torrent.  The trick is to use a download manager
that is smart enough to download via HTTP in parallel sections.  From
the perspective of an end user that gives the same speed advantage of
a torrent.

-Rob


>
> - d.
>
> -
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>

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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Donald Whytock  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest 
>> wrote:
>> >> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
>> >> Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
>> >> that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
>> >> fine with distribution via the mirrors.
>> >>
>> >> Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of priority.
>> >> Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
>> >> installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?
>> >
>> > Of course it's not a priority.
>> > But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it
>> spreads by itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need powerful
>> resources for the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I guess.
>> And then let the torrent spread among users.
>> >
>> > A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is still
>> doing and rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback when
>> information is forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a
>> torrent a first for ASF?
>> >
>> > Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a niche
>> program, it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it yourself when
>> you inform the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers torrents
>> for example.
>> >
>>
>> AOO is popular.  Torrents are not.  I bet that <1% of downloads were
>> of torrent, when OOo had them.
>>
>> Remember, a common question from users is "I just downloaded
>> OpenOffice and now I cannot find it".  So skill level of typical user
>> is not ideal for explaining how to download via P2P.
>>
>> > If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has
>> even tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on
>> the other side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at marketing
>> their project.
>> >
>>
>> 1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
>> would be an interesting number to know.
>>
>> 2. This is not a question of avoiding doing something new.  It is a
>> question of prioritization based on cost and benefit.
>>
>> 3. Torrents are not even new. They are old technology.
>>
>> 4. There is nothing to prevent someone from seeding a torrent for AOO
>> today, right now if you thought it was important.  It does not need to
>> come from Apache.
>>
>>
> Infra could conceivably create torrents for every ASF distro file, probably
> on an automated basis.  Were that to happen, the effort by the AOO TLP
> would be nil and the effort proportionally related to AOO would be
> negligible.
>
> Of course, this could take some significant setup effort on Infra's part,
> and if only the AOO torrents were ever used someone might say, "Why are we
> doing this for only one TLP?"
>
> It would be best if ASF could do it so as to add legitimacy to the torrent.
>  Otherwise, if AOO itself was doing it, it would need to be on a
> respected/respectable torrent server, such that we could point to it and
> say, "That is the official AOO torrent."
>

I think that's the key.  If it is to be considered "official" then we
need sufficient control to ensure that it has not been tampered.  What
we do right now is have Release Candidates on Apache servers, which
are voted on and then copied onto another Apache server for archives,
and then rsynced from that Apache server by SourceForge.  And all
along we have the original digital signature files that can be
verified.  So it is around as secure as we can go without taking the
builds themselves right from Apache-hosted buildbots, which is the
next logical step.

But honestly my low motivation for this is based on the fact that
we're talking about a 150MB file, not a 4GB ISO image.  The typical
user can download AOO in less time than it took me to write this note.
 For me it takes longer to install AOO than to download it.  So in the
grand order of annoyances related to AOO, the download time does not
seem to rate very highly.

That's my personal opinion.  But the nice thing about Apache is this
doesn't prevent someone else from moving this forward if they have the
motivation.  Everyone is able to scratch their own itch here.

Regards,

-Rob


> Maybe a cheap 10gig VM?
>
> Don

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Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Rory O'Farrell]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:39:16 -0400
Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Donald Whytock  wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest 
> >> wrote:
> >> >> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
> >> >> Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
> >> >> that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
> >> >> fine with distribution via the mirrors.
> >> >>
> >> >> Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of priority.
> >> >> Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
> >> >> installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?
> >> >
> >> > Of course it's not a priority.
> >> > But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it
> >> spreads by itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need powerful
> >> resources for the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I guess.
> >> And then let the torrent spread among users.
> >> >
> >> > A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is still
> >> doing and rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback when
> >> information is forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a
> >> torrent a first for ASF?
> >> >
> >> > Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a niche
> >> program, it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it yourself when
> >> you inform the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers torrents
> >> for example.
> >> >
> >>
> >> AOO is popular.  Torrents are not.  I bet that <1% of downloads were
> >> of torrent, when OOo had them.
> >>
> >> Remember, a common question from users is "I just downloaded
> >> OpenOffice and now I cannot find it".  So skill level of typical user
> >> is not ideal for explaining how to download via P2P.
> >>
> >> > If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has
> >> even tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on
> >> the other side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at marketing
> >> their project.
> >> >
> >>
> >> 1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
> >> would be an interesting number to know.
> >>
> >> 2. This is not a question of avoiding doing something new.  It is a
> >> question of prioritization based on cost and benefit.
> >>
> >> 3. Torrents are not even new. They are old technology.
> >>
> >> 4. There is nothing to prevent someone from seeding a torrent for AOO
> >> today, right now if you thought it was important.  It does not need to
> >> come from Apache.
> >>
> >>
> > Infra could conceivably create torrents for every ASF distro file, probably
> > on an automated basis.  Were that to happen, the effort by the AOO TLP
> > would be nil and the effort proportionally related to AOO would be
> > negligible.
> >
> > Of course, this could take some significant setup effort on Infra's part,
> > and if only the AOO torrents were ever used someone might say, "Why are we
> > doing this for only one TLP?"
> >
> > It would be best if ASF could do it so as to add legitimacy to the torrent.
> >  Otherwise, if AOO itself was doing it, it would need to be on a
> > respected/respectable torrent server, such that we could point to it and
> > say, "That is the official AOO torrent."
> >
> 
> I think that's the key.  If it is to be considered "official" then we
> need sufficient control to ensure that it has not been tampered.  What
> we do right now is have Release Candidates on Apache servers, which
> are voted on and then copied onto another Apache server for archives,
> and then rsynced from that Apache server by SourceForge.  And all
> along we have the original digital signature files that can be
> verified.  So it is around as secure as we can go without taking the
> builds themselves right from Apache-hosted buildbots, which is the
> next logical step.
> 
> But honestly my low motivation for this is based on the fact that
> we're talking about a 150MB file, not a 4GB ISO image.  The typical
> user can download AOO in less time than it took me to write this note.
>  For me it takes longer to install AOO than to download it.  So in the
> grand order of annoyances related to AOO, the download time does not
> seem to rate very highly.
> 
> That's my personal opinion.  But the nice thing about Apache is this
> doesn't prevent someone else from moving this forward if they have the
> motivation.  Everyone is able to scratch their own itch here.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> > Maybe a cheap 10gig VM?
> >
> > Don

With respect, Rob, we don't all live in fibre access broadband areas. I count 
myself lucky in having 200KB/sec access; there are those who are still stuck 
with 56KB modems on bad dial-up lines. My OpenOffice download is typically 
12-14 minutes.


> 


-- 
Rory O'Farrell 

Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[sebb]

On 16 August 2013 19:44, Rory O'Farrell  wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:39:16 -0400
> Rob Weir  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Donald Whytock  wrote:
>> > On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
>> >> >> Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
>> >> >> that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
>> >> >> fine with distribution via the mirrors.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of priority.
>> >> >> Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
>> >> >> installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?
>> >> >
>> >> > Of course it's not a priority.
>> >> > But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it
>> >> spreads by itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need powerful
>> >> resources for the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I guess.
>> >> And then let the torrent spread among users.
>> >> >
>> >> > A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is still
>> >> doing and rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback when
>> >> information is forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a
>> >> torrent a first for ASF?
>> >> >
>> >> > Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a niche
>> >> program, it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it yourself when
>> >> you inform the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers torrents
>> >> for example.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> AOO is popular.  Torrents are not.  I bet that <1% of downloads were
>> >> of torrent, when OOo had them.
>> >>
>> >> Remember, a common question from users is "I just downloaded
>> >> OpenOffice and now I cannot find it".  So skill level of typical user
>> >> is not ideal for explaining how to download via P2P.
>> >>
>> >> > If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has
>> >> even tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on
>> >> the other side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at marketing
>> >> their project.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> 1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
>> >> would be an interesting number to know.
>> >>
>> >> 2. This is not a question of avoiding doing something new.  It is a
>> >> question of prioritization based on cost and benefit.
>> >>
>> >> 3. Torrents are not even new. They are old technology.
>> >>
>> >> 4. There is nothing to prevent someone from seeding a torrent for AOO
>> >> today, right now if you thought it was important.  It does not need to
>> >> come from Apache.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Infra could conceivably create torrents for every ASF distro file, probably
>> > on an automated basis.  Were that to happen, the effort by the AOO TLP
>> > would be nil and the effort proportionally related to AOO would be
>> > negligible.
>> >
>> > Of course, this could take some significant setup effort on Infra's part,
>> > and if only the AOO torrents were ever used someone might say, "Why are we
>> > doing this for only one TLP?"
>> >
>> > It would be best if ASF could do it so as to add legitimacy to the torrent.
>> >  Otherwise, if AOO itself was doing it, it would need to be on a
>> > respected/respectable torrent server, such that we could point to it and
>> > say, "That is the official AOO torrent."
>> >
>>
>> I think that's the key.  If it is to be considered "official" then we
>> need sufficient control to ensure that it has not been tampered.  What
>> we do right now is have Release Candidates on Apache servers, which
>> are voted on and then copied onto another Apache server for archives,
>> and then rsynced from that Apache server by SourceForge.  And all
>> along we have the original digital signature files that can be
>> verified.  So it is around as secure as we can go without taking the
>> builds themselves right from Apache-hosted buildbots, which is the
>> next logical step.
>>
>> But honestly my low motivation for this is based on the fact that
>> we're talking about a 150MB file, not a 4GB ISO image.  The typical
>> user can download AOO in less time than it took me to write this note.
>>  For me it takes longer to install AOO than to download it.  So in the
>> grand order of annoyances related to AOO, the download time does not
>> seem to rate very highly.
>>
>> That's my personal opinion.  But the nice thing about Apache is this
>> doesn't prevent someone else from moving this forward if they have the
>> motivation.  Everyone is able to scratch their own itch here.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>> > Maybe a cheap 10gig VM?
>> >
>> > Don
>
> With respect, Rob, we don't all live in fibre access broadband areas. I count 
> myself lucky in having 200KB/sec access; there are those who are still stuck 
> with 56KB modems on bad d

Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Alexandro Colorado]

I worked with Ian seldomly on the distribution project. The distrbution
project manage the CD/p2p and other mediums of distributing OpenOffice.org.

Maybe is a good idea to revive the project and get people involved to set
up the seeds as well as donating artwork for the CD.

There was a community distributor seal of approval and other goodies like
packaging OOoAuthros (now ODFauthors) documentation with it.



On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:56 PM, sebb  wrote:

> On 16 August 2013 19:44, Rory O'Farrell  wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:39:16 -0400
> > Rob Weir  wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Donald Whytock 
> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Rob Weir 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest <
> hagar.del...@laposte.net>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
> >> >> >> Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
> >> >> >> that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to
> do
> >> >> >> fine with distribution via the mirrors.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of
> priority.
> >> >> >> Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for
> our
> >> >> >> installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Of course it's not a priority.
> >> >> > But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it
> >> >> spreads by itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need
> powerful
> >> >> resources for the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I
> guess.
> >> >> And then let the torrent spread among users.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is
> still
> >> >> doing and rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback
> when
> >> >> information is forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a
> >> >> torrent a first for ASF?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a
> niche
> >> >> program, it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it
> yourself when
> >> >> you inform the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers
> torrents
> >> >> for example.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> AOO is popular.  Torrents are not.  I bet that <1% of downloads were
> >> >> of torrent, when OOo had them.
> >> >>
> >> >> Remember, a common question from users is "I just downloaded
> >> >> OpenOffice and now I cannot find it".  So skill level of typical user
> >> >> is not ideal for explaining how to download via P2P.
> >> >>
> >> >> > If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project
> has
> >> >> even tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially
> when on
> >> >> the other side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at
> marketing
> >> >> their project.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> 1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
> >> >> would be an interesting number to know.
> >> >>
> >> >> 2. This is not a question of avoiding doing something new.  It is a
> >> >> question of prioritization based on cost and benefit.
> >> >>
> >> >> 3. Torrents are not even new. They are old technology.
> >> >>
> >> >> 4. There is nothing to prevent someone from seeding a torrent for AOO
> >> >> today, right now if you thought it was important.  It does not need
> to
> >> >> come from Apache.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > Infra could conceivably create torrents for every ASF distro file,
> probably
> >> > on an automated basis.  Were that to happen, the effort by the AOO TLP
> >> > would be nil and the effort proportionally related to AOO would be
> >> > negligible.
> >> >
> >> > Of course, this could take some significant setup effort on Infra's
> part,
> >> > and if only the AOO torrents were ever used someone might say, "Why
> are we
> >> > doing this for only one TLP?"
> >> >
> >> > It would be best if ASF could do it so as to add legitimacy to the
> torrent.
> >> >  Otherwise, if AOO itself was doing it, it would need to be on a
> >> > respected/respectable torrent server, such that we could point to it
> and
> >> > say, "That is the official AOO torrent."
> >> >
> >>
> >> I think that's the key.  If it is to be considered "official" then we
> >> need sufficient control to ensure that it has not been tampered.  What
> >> we do right now is have Release Candidates on Apache servers, which
> >> are voted on and then copied onto another Apache server for archives,
> >> and then rsynced from that Apache server by SourceForge.  And all
> >> along we have the original digital signature files that can be
> >> verified.  So it is around as secure as we can go without taking the
> >> builds themselves right from Apache-hosted buildbots, which is the
> >> next logical step.
> >>
> >> But honestly my low motivation for this is based on the fact that
> >> we're talking about a 150MB file, not a 4GB ISO image.  The typical
> >> user can downl

Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 2:56 PM, sebb  wrote:
> On 16 August 2013 19:44, Rory O'Farrell  wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:39:16 -0400
>> Rob Weir  wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Donald Whytock  wrote:
>>> > On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Hagar Delest 
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> Objet : Re: Microsoft Censors OpenOffice Download Links
>>> >> >> Not to speak for them, but I suspect they would point out the fact
>>> >> >> that we there are over 100 Apache projects, and they all seem to do
>>> >> >> fine with distribution via the mirrors.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Personally, I'd wonder where this rates with us in terms of priority.
>>> >> >> Compare to, say, forum stability improvements, code signing for our
>>> >> >> installers, and further buildbot coverage, where do torrents rate?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Of course it's not a priority.
>>> >> > But think about the mechanism of torrent: once it's initiated, it
>>> >> spreads by itself without any input needed. I'm not sure we need powerful
>>> >> resources for the seeds, we can even limit the number of uploads I guess.
>>> >> And then let the torrent spread among users.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > A forum was not in the field of the ASF scope. The AOO forum is still
>>> >> doing and rather well, there is a lot of cooperation and feedback when
>>> >> information is forwarded from on side to the other. So why not make a
>>> >> torrent a first for ASF?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Please remember that you're handling an office suite, it's not a niche
>>> >> program, it's something that is heavily popular, you tell it yourself 
>>> >> when
>>> >> you inform the list about the millions downloads. Ubuntu offers torrents
>>> >> for example.
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> AOO is popular.  Torrents are not.  I bet that <1% of downloads were
>>> >> of torrent, when OOo had them.
>>> >>
>>> >> Remember, a common question from users is "I just downloaded
>>> >> OpenOffice and now I cannot find it".  So skill level of typical user
>>> >> is not ideal for explaining how to download via P2P.
>>> >>
>>> >> > If ASF does not want to do new things because no other ASF project has
>>> >> even tried, then I'm rather worried about the future. Especially when on
>>> >> the other side LibreOffice has a so efficient team, very good at 
>>> >> marketing
>>> >> their project.
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> 1. Maybe ask LibreOffice how many torrent downloads they see?  That
>>> >> would be an interesting number to know.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2. This is not a question of avoiding doing something new.  It is a
>>> >> question of prioritization based on cost and benefit.
>>> >>
>>> >> 3. Torrents are not even new. They are old technology.
>>> >>
>>> >> 4. There is nothing to prevent someone from seeding a torrent for AOO
>>> >> today, right now if you thought it was important.  It does not need to
>>> >> come from Apache.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> > Infra could conceivably create torrents for every ASF distro file, 
>>> > probably
>>> > on an automated basis.  Were that to happen, the effort by the AOO TLP
>>> > would be nil and the effort proportionally related to AOO would be
>>> > negligible.
>>> >
>>> > Of course, this could take some significant setup effort on Infra's part,
>>> > and if only the AOO torrents were ever used someone might say, "Why are we
>>> > doing this for only one TLP?"
>>> >
>>> > It would be best if ASF could do it so as to add legitimacy to the 
>>> > torrent.
>>> >  Otherwise, if AOO itself was doing it, it would need to be on a
>>> > respected/respectable torrent server, such that we could point to it and
>>> > say, "That is the official AOO torrent."
>>> >
>>>
>>> I think that's the key.  If it is to be considered "official" then we
>>> need sufficient control to ensure that it has not been tampered.  What
>>> we do right now is have Release Candidates on Apache servers, which
>>> are voted on and then copied onto another Apache server for archives,
>>> and then rsynced from that Apache server by SourceForge.  And all
>>> along we have the original digital signature files that can be
>>> verified.  So it is around as secure as we can go without taking the
>>> builds themselves right from Apache-hosted buildbots, which is the
>>> next logical step.
>>>
>>> But honestly my low motivation for this is based on the fact that
>>> we're talking about a 150MB file, not a 4GB ISO image.  The typical
>>> user can download AOO in less time than it took me to write this note.
>>>  For me it takes longer to install AOO than to download it.  So in the
>>> grand order of annoyances related to AOO, the download time does not
>>> seem to rate very highly.
>>>
>>> That's my personal opinion.  But the nice thing about Apache is this
>>> doesn't prevent someone else from moving this forward if they have the
>>> motivation.  Everyone is able to scratch their own itch here.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>
>>> > Maybe a cheap 10gig VM?
>>> >
>>> > Don
>>
>> Wi

Re: Example of spreadsheet formula testing

[Regina Henschel]

Hi Rob,

Rob Weir schrieb:

Moving this topic to its own thread.

It should be possible to code a very thorough set of test cases in a
spreadsheet, without using macros or anything fancy.  Just careful
reading of the ODF 1.2 specification and simple spreadsheet logic.



Following the spec is not enough. For example, if the accuracy decreases 
from 14 digits to 7 digits, that is not covered by the spec.





If we used an approach like this on the other spreadsheet functions,
we could have a semi-automated test suite that would practically
guarantee that Calc is free of calculations errors.  Once we're
written the test cases, a modest upfront investment


"modest"? One function a day and you need more than a year.

, it will benefit

us with every release we do.  Heck, it would benefit LibreOffice,
Gnumeric, Calligra as well, maybe even Microsoft and Google, though
they might already have such test cases defined internally.


I see a problem in how such a test suite is made available. And how the 
results for a special release are collected.


The problem with the current test cases is, that I do not know where 
they are, how they are to use and how to generate new ones. It is a 
closed book, only for insiders.




Anyone interesting in helping with this kind of test case development?


There exist some files already in Bugzilla. I used to make test 
documents, when working on functions. I think, that they can be extended 
to work in a way, that a simple look on it will tell errors. But I have 
no ready collection on my PC and most will be already deleted from my PC 
in the meantime.


One problem is, that comparisons with constants have to be written in a 
way, that they are independent from local. Eike has once corrected one 
of my test spreadsheets that way.




Any ideas on how to fully automate this?  ODF 1.2 is very strict, so
we're not starting from a  perfect score.  But we should find an easy
way to report on regressions.


If you will automate this, you will need to develop a frame. But 
automation is not the total solution. Testing can be a way to bring user 
into the community. And tests have to cover different languages and 
scripts. I remember errors reported to LibreOffice, where a time 
calculation was wrong only in special locals. To extend a testing frame 
to consider this would be very expensive.


Let me not be misunderstood, I like the idea of collecting test cases.

Kind regard
Regina




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To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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Re: Example of spreadsheet formula testing

[janI]

On 16 August 2013 21:37, Regina Henschel  wrote:

> Hi Rob,
>
> Rob Weir schrieb:
>
>> Moving this topic to its own thread.
>>
>> It should be possible to code a very thorough set of test cases in a
>> spreadsheet, without using macros or anything fancy.  Just careful
>> reading of the ODF 1.2 specification and simple spreadsheet logic.
>>
>>
> Following the spec is not enough. For example, if the accuracy decreases
> from 14 digits to 7 digits, that is not covered by the spec.
>
> 
>
>  If we used an approach like this on the other spreadsheet functions,
>> we could have a semi-automated test suite that would practically
>> guarantee that Calc is free of calculations errors.  Once we're
>> written the test cases, a modest upfront investment
>>
>
> "modest"? One function a day and you need more than a year.
>

I think that a bit over the top, you can do quite a lot with an editor :-)

And dont forget, if it really takes that long, how long does it then take
to test it manually, no less I assume.

so its a win-win situation, first person that tests functions write the
first macros and so on.


>
> , it will benefit
>
>> us with every release we do.  Heck, it would benefit LibreOffice,
>> Gnumeric, Calligra as well, maybe even Microsoft and Google, though
>> they might already have such test cases defined internally.
>>
>
> I see a problem in how such a test suite is made available. And how the
> results for a special release are collected.
>
> The problem with the current test cases is, that I do not know where they
> are, how they are to use and how to generate new ones. It is a closed book,
> only for insiders.
>

Thats a matter of documentation, I did not know where build.pl was stored
or how the build system worked before I invested time. Everything is a
closed book and for insider until you know it.


>
>
>> Anyone interesting in helping with this kind of test case development?
>>
>
> There exist some files already in Bugzilla. I used to make test documents,
> when working on functions. I think, that they can be extended to work in a
> way, that a simple look on it will tell errors. But I have no ready
> collection on my PC and most will be already deleted from my PC in the
> meantime.
>

ODF must also as such have test suites to test the specification.


>
> One problem is, that comparisons with constants have to be written in a
> way, that they are independent from local. Eike has once corrected one of
> my test spreadsheets that way.
>

We can simply assume for a start (that would be huge) that automated
testing runs in the en-US environment, then if there are problems it is
very likely in the translation.


>
>
>> Any ideas on how to fully automate this?  ODF 1.2 is very strict, so
>> we're not starting from a  perfect score.  But we should find an easy
>> way to report on regressions.
>>
>
> If you will automate this, you will need to develop a frame. But
> automation is not the total solution. Testing can be a way to bring user
> into the community. And tests have to cover different languages and
> scripts. I remember errors reported to LibreOffice, where a time
> calculation was wrong only in special locals. To extend a testing frame to
> consider this would be very expensive.
>
> I simply disagree, I come from a company where every bug was turned into
at least one test case in the framework, that was not all expensive, merely
giving the developer a slightly different job. Using this philosophy we
guarantee that a bug never reoccurs and that we test more and more with
every regression.

Testing AOO is actually quite simple than testing live systems, where the
history changes the behavior of the system. Apart from very few test cases,
we can simply restart every time.

We do need a test framework, but that is much more documentation and then
use what we have. In the first line macros, later perhaps scripting through
the extension framework. But alone with macros we have come a long way.

> Let me not be misunderstood, I like the idea of collecting test cases.
>

I could have misunderstood what you wrote, but I know we all have the same
goal, a high quality.

rgds
jan I


> Kind regard
> Regina
>
>
>
>
> --**--**-
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.**apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: Example of spreadsheet formula testing

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Regina Henschel
 wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> Rob Weir schrieb:
>
>> Moving this topic to its own thread.
>>
>> It should be possible to code a very thorough set of test cases in a
>> spreadsheet, without using macros or anything fancy.  Just careful
>> reading of the ODF 1.2 specification and simple spreadsheet logic.
>>
>
> Following the spec is not enough. For example, if the accuracy decreases
> from 14 digits to 7 digits, that is not covered by the spec.
>
> 
>

This is not hard to check.  When you save an ODF document in version
N, it saves the last-calculated value of each cell as well.  It would
be possible to verify that the same values are returned in AOO version
N as well.  Probably not via AOO itself, but you can access the
last-saved value in the cell via the ODF Toolkit, for example.   Load
sheet, save, compare to sheet saved in previous version (or some other
reference version).

>
>> If we used an approach like this on the other spreadsheet functions,
>> we could have a semi-automated test suite that would practically
>> guarantee that Calc is free of calculations errors.  Once we're
>> written the test cases, a modest upfront investment
>
>
> "modest"? One function a day and you need more than a year.
>

There are ways of making this more efficient.  You group together
functions that are related and have the same basic input values.  For
example, the many bin/oct/hex conversion functions, the logical
IF/AND/XOR functions, the DCOUNT/DMAX/DMIN database functions, etc.
Try to reuse the same test conditions for related functions.

So there is a lot of reuse possible.  But the parts are also very
independent, so the work can be done in parallel by any interested
volunteers.

>
> , it will benefit
>>
>> us with every release we do.  Heck, it would benefit LibreOffice,
>> Gnumeric, Calligra as well, maybe even Microsoft and Google, though
>> they might already have such test cases defined internally.
>
>
> I see a problem in how such a test suite is made available. And how the
> results for a special release are collected.
>

I was thinking of storing them in SVN, something like
/test-docs/calc/functions or something like that.  I think we want to
make it easy for a tester to download the whole collection of test
sheets without needing to download them individually from a wiki page,
for example.

> The problem with the current test cases is, that I do not know where they
> are, how they are to use and how to generate new ones. It is a closed book,
> only for insiders.
>

Do we have test documents like this today?   I don't want to do redundant work.

>
>>
>> Anyone interesting in helping with this kind of test case development?
>
>
> There exist some files already in Bugzilla. I used to make test documents,
> when working on functions. I think, that they can be extended to work in a
> way, that a simple look on it will tell errors. But I have no ready
> collection on my PC and most will be already deleted from my PC in the
> meantime.
>
> One problem is, that comparisons with constants have to be written in a way,
> that they are independent from local. Eike has once corrected one of my test
> spreadsheets that way.
>

Or we agree on a locale to be used for calculation testing.  There are
only a small number of locale-dependent calculations in Calc.  I have
another test document that triggers all the implementation-dependent,
implementation-defined, locale-defined and undefined behaviors in
OpenFormula.  For those there is no single "correct" answer.  But we
can use it to verify that the calculations do not change unexpectedly
from release to release.

Or put differently, it might make sense to isolate the
locale-sensitive calculations from the locale-insensitive ones and
approach the testing of them differently.

>
>>
>> Any ideas on how to fully automate this?  ODF 1.2 is very strict, so
>> we're not starting from a  perfect score.  But we should find an easy
>> way to report on regressions.
>
>
> If you will automate this, you will need to develop a frame. But automation
> is not the total solution. Testing can be a way to bring user into the
> community. And tests have to cover different languages and scripts. I
> remember errors reported to LibreOffice, where a time calculation was wrong
> only in special locals. To extend a testing frame to consider this would be
> very expensive.
>
> Let me not be misunderstood, I like the idea of collecting test cases.
>

I'm thinking less of "collecting" test cases and more of designing a
test suite with specific coverage goals in mind.  The coverage may not
be 100% if you consider the locale aspect of it.  But it is 100%
within the domain it aims to cover, and by doing that insulates from
defects in that area.

>From a community perspective I think it would have value attracting
those who are more interested in the formal aspects of QA and in
building skills there.  But it would not be interesting to everyone.

Regards,

-Rob

Re: Example of spreadsheet formula testing

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, janI  wrote:
> On 16 August 2013 21:37, Regina Henschel  wrote:
>
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> Rob Weir schrieb:
>>
>>> Moving this topic to its own thread.
>>>
>>> It should be possible to code a very thorough set of test cases in a
>>> spreadsheet, without using macros or anything fancy.  Just careful
>>> reading of the ODF 1.2 specification and simple spreadsheet logic.
>>>
>>>
>> Following the spec is not enough. For example, if the accuracy decreases
>> from 14 digits to 7 digits, that is not covered by the spec.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  If we used an approach like this on the other spreadsheet functions,
>>> we could have a semi-automated test suite that would practically
>>> guarantee that Calc is free of calculations errors.  Once we're
>>> written the test cases, a modest upfront investment
>>>
>>
>> "modest"? One function a day and you need more than a year.
>>
>
> I think that a bit over the top, you can do quite a lot with an editor :-)
>
> And dont forget, if it really takes that long, how long does it then take
> to test it manually, no less I assume.
>
> so its a win-win situation, first person that tests functions write the
> first macros and so on.
>
>
>>
>> , it will benefit
>>
>>> us with every release we do.  Heck, it would benefit LibreOffice,
>>> Gnumeric, Calligra as well, maybe even Microsoft and Google, though
>>> they might already have such test cases defined internally.
>>>
>>
>> I see a problem in how such a test suite is made available. And how the
>> results for a special release are collected.
>>
>> The problem with the current test cases is, that I do not know where they
>> are, how they are to use and how to generate new ones. It is a closed book,
>> only for insiders.
>>
>
> Thats a matter of documentation, I did not know where build.pl was stored
> or how the build system worked before I invested time. Everything is a
> closed book and for insider until you know it.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> Anyone interesting in helping with this kind of test case development?
>>>
>>
>> There exist some files already in Bugzilla. I used to make test documents,
>> when working on functions. I think, that they can be extended to work in a
>> way, that a simple look on it will tell errors. But I have no ready
>> collection on my PC and most will be already deleted from my PC in the
>> meantime.
>>
>
> ODF must also as such have test suites to test the specification.
>

There are test cases, but they are incomplete.  And I think everything
must be hand-verified.

A short story of what can go wrong.  When the OOXML standard was
written the authors included an example calculation for each function,
to show what the expected result was.  They also gave a text
description and in many cases an equation in mathematical notation.

This all looked great.  But when I looked closely I found that the
test cases were just copy & paste from Excel output.  And in some
cases the result given was not what the mathematical equation said.
They were not in synch.  So it was a case of "never go to sea with two
compasses", because you then are lost if they disagree.

So if we do this we really need to generate the expected values from
the specification itself, by hand, or using some other trusted tool,
like an HP financial calculator.  If you look at the details of my
YEARFRAC test sheet you see that is what I did.As teaches tell
their students, "show your work", not just the final result.

In any case, I like the idea of a focus here, for two reasons:

1) It lends itself well to automation

2) From a user perspective a spreadsheet can do almost anything else
wrong, but it must not do calculations wrong.  This is the core trust
of a spreadsheet application.  So it makes sense to really nail this
area.


>
>>
>> One problem is, that comparisons with constants have to be written in a
>> way, that they are independent from local. Eike has once corrected one of
>> my test spreadsheets that way.
>>
>
> We can simply assume for a start (that would be huge) that automated
> testing runs in the en-US environment, then if there are problems it is
> very likely in the translation.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> Any ideas on how to fully automate this?  ODF 1.2 is very strict, so
>>> we're not starting from a  perfect score.  But we should find an easy
>>> way to report on regressions.
>>>
>>
>> If you will automate this, you will need to develop a frame. But
>> automation is not the total solution. Testing can be a way to bring user
>> into the community. And tests have to cover different languages and
>> scripts. I remember errors reported to LibreOffice, where a time
>> calculation was wrong only in special locals. To extend a testing frame to
>> consider this would be very expensive.
>>
>> I simply disagree, I come from a company where every bug was turned into
> at least one test case in the framework, that was not all expensive, merely
> giving the developer a slightly different job. Using this philosophy we
> guarantee that a bug

Re: Example of spreadsheet formula testing

[janI]

On 16 August 2013 22:14, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, janI  wrote:
> > On 16 August 2013 21:37, Regina Henschel 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Rob,
> >>
> >> Rob Weir schrieb:
> >>
> >>> Moving this topic to its own thread.
> >>>
> >>> It should be possible to code a very thorough set of test cases in a
> >>> spreadsheet, without using macros or anything fancy.  Just careful
> >>> reading of the ODF 1.2 specification and simple spreadsheet logic.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Following the spec is not enough. For example, if the accuracy decreases
> >> from 14 digits to 7 digits, that is not covered by the spec.
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >>  If we used an approach like this on the other spreadsheet functions,
> >>> we could have a semi-automated test suite that would practically
> >>> guarantee that Calc is free of calculations errors.  Once we're
> >>> written the test cases, a modest upfront investment
> >>>
> >>
> >> "modest"? One function a day and you need more than a year.
> >>
> >
> > I think that a bit over the top, you can do quite a lot with an editor
> :-)
> >
> > And dont forget, if it really takes that long, how long does it then take
> > to test it manually, no less I assume.
> >
> > so its a win-win situation, first person that tests functions write the
> > first macros and so on.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> , it will benefit
> >>
> >>> us with every release we do.  Heck, it would benefit LibreOffice,
> >>> Gnumeric, Calligra as well, maybe even Microsoft and Google, though
> >>> they might already have such test cases defined internally.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I see a problem in how such a test suite is made available. And how the
> >> results for a special release are collected.
> >>
> >> The problem with the current test cases is, that I do not know where
> they
> >> are, how they are to use and how to generate new ones. It is a closed
> book,
> >> only for insiders.
> >>
> >
> > Thats a matter of documentation, I did not know where build.pl was
> stored
> > or how the build system worked before I invested time. Everything is a
> > closed book and for insider until you know it.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> Anyone interesting in helping with this kind of test case development?
> >>>
> >>
> >> There exist some files already in Bugzilla. I used to make test
> documents,
> >> when working on functions. I think, that they can be extended to work
> in a
> >> way, that a simple look on it will tell errors. But I have no ready
> >> collection on my PC and most will be already deleted from my PC in the
> >> meantime.
> >>
> >
> > ODF must also as such have test suites to test the specification.
> >
>
> There are test cases, but they are incomplete.  And I think everything
> must be hand-verified.
>
> A short story of what can go wrong.  When the OOXML standard was
> written the authors included an example calculation for each function,
> to show what the expected result was.  They also gave a text
> description and in many cases an equation in mathematical notation.
>
> This all looked great.  But when I looked closely I found that the
> test cases were just copy & paste from Excel output.  And in some
> cases the result given was not what the mathematical equation said.
> They were not in synch.  So it was a case of "never go to sea with two
> compasses", because you then are lost if they disagree.
>
> So if we do this we really need to generate the expected values from
> the specification itself, by hand, or using some other trusted tool,
> like an HP financial calculator.  If you look at the details of my
> YEARFRAC test sheet you see that is what I did.As teaches tell
> their students, "show your work", not just the final result.
>

I see your point, and I am probably to full blooded a programmer, used to
specs like those from W3N, nice BN formulas and at the same time a test
suite thats real big. It used to be a selling point to say that the html
part of our software had passed the W3C test suites.

But I agree, as you write it, we need to be careful, or to make things
simple (to get us started), assume our current calc is ok, and just to be
sure compare with e.g. excel.


> In any case, I like the idea of a focus here, for two reasons:
>
> 1) It lends itself well to automation
>
> 2) From a user perspective a spreadsheet can do almost anything else
> wrong, but it must not do calculations wrong.  This is the core trust
> of a spreadsheet application.  So it makes sense to really nail this
> area.
>

Once we have that nailed, it more or less exact the same (but much more
complicated) to test writer.

rgds
jan I.


>
>
> >
> >>
> >> One problem is, that comparisons with constants have to be written in a
> >> way, that they are independent from local. Eike has once corrected one
> of
> >> my test spreadsheets that way.
> >>
> >
> > We can simply assume for a start (that would be huge) that automated
> > testing runs in the en-US environment, then if there are problems it is
> > very likely in the translation.
> >
> >

new version of BasicAddonBulder compatible with AOO 4.x

[Jörg Schmidt]

Hello,

Paolo (Mantovani) replied me that he currently does not have time to create a 
new version of Basic Addon Builder. Therefore, I have now created a new version.

I would be glad if you could test it and give me feedback. Once the tests are 
completed I will release the new version.


changes:
-BasicAddonBuilder can now create toolbars that are compatible to AOO 4.x, see 
the "Toolbar compatible with AOO 4.x" in step 2 ("General Options") of the 
BasicAddonBuilder-wizard
-in Step "License and version" of the wizard there is a new option to add the 
publisher

(The new features are localized in languages de, en, fr, it, es, da. Notes on 
translation errors are welcome.)

download the trial version:
There are two versions, one for AOO4x:
http://calc-info.de/files/BasicAddonBuilder-0.5.1.oxt

and one (backward compatible) for OOo 2.2 to AOO 3.4.1: 
http://calc-info.de/files/BasicAddonBuilder-oo3x-0.5.1.oxt

Both versions can produce compatible extensions for all versions of OOo and AOO.



current problems:
In the Extension Manager in AOO 4.0 is a bug, which I have described here:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-dev/201308.mbox/%3c90C62112A1874A6B914460BC983878FA@Esprimo7935%3e

(This problem does not affect directly BasicAddonBuilder, but it can make it 
look as if the installation does not work properly.)



Greetings,
Jörg


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Another 4.0 review, in ComputerBild (German)

[Rob Weir]

http://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cb-Ratgeber-Apache-OpenOfficeGratis-kostenlose-Buerosoftware-Download-1269759.html

-Rob

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Re: Example of spreadsheet formula testing

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 4:47 PM, janI  wrote:
> On 16 August 2013 22:14, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, janI  wrote:
>> > On 16 August 2013 21:37, Regina Henschel 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Rob,
>> >>
>> >> Rob Weir schrieb:
>> >>
>> >>> Moving this topic to its own thread.
>> >>>
>> >>> It should be possible to code a very thorough set of test cases in a
>> >>> spreadsheet, without using macros or anything fancy.  Just careful
>> >>> reading of the ODF 1.2 specification and simple spreadsheet logic.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> Following the spec is not enough. For example, if the accuracy decreases
>> >> from 14 digits to 7 digits, that is not covered by the spec.
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >>
>> >>  If we used an approach like this on the other spreadsheet functions,
>> >>> we could have a semi-automated test suite that would practically
>> >>> guarantee that Calc is free of calculations errors.  Once we're
>> >>> written the test cases, a modest upfront investment
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> "modest"? One function a day and you need more than a year.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I think that a bit over the top, you can do quite a lot with an editor
>> :-)
>> >
>> > And dont forget, if it really takes that long, how long does it then take
>> > to test it manually, no less I assume.
>> >
>> > so its a win-win situation, first person that tests functions write the
>> > first macros and so on.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> , it will benefit
>> >>
>> >>> us with every release we do.  Heck, it would benefit LibreOffice,
>> >>> Gnumeric, Calligra as well, maybe even Microsoft and Google, though
>> >>> they might already have such test cases defined internally.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I see a problem in how such a test suite is made available. And how the
>> >> results for a special release are collected.
>> >>
>> >> The problem with the current test cases is, that I do not know where
>> they
>> >> are, how they are to use and how to generate new ones. It is a closed
>> book,
>> >> only for insiders.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Thats a matter of documentation, I did not know where build.pl was
>> stored
>> > or how the build system worked before I invested time. Everything is a
>> > closed book and for insider until you know it.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Anyone interesting in helping with this kind of test case development?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> There exist some files already in Bugzilla. I used to make test
>> documents,
>> >> when working on functions. I think, that they can be extended to work
>> in a
>> >> way, that a simple look on it will tell errors. But I have no ready
>> >> collection on my PC and most will be already deleted from my PC in the
>> >> meantime.
>> >>
>> >
>> > ODF must also as such have test suites to test the specification.
>> >
>>
>> There are test cases, but they are incomplete.  And I think everything
>> must be hand-verified.
>>
>> A short story of what can go wrong.  When the OOXML standard was
>> written the authors included an example calculation for each function,
>> to show what the expected result was.  They also gave a text
>> description and in many cases an equation in mathematical notation.
>>
>> This all looked great.  But when I looked closely I found that the
>> test cases were just copy & paste from Excel output.  And in some
>> cases the result given was not what the mathematical equation said.
>> They were not in synch.  So it was a case of "never go to sea with two
>> compasses", because you then are lost if they disagree.
>>
>> So if we do this we really need to generate the expected values from
>> the specification itself, by hand, or using some other trusted tool,
>> like an HP financial calculator.  If you look at the details of my
>> YEARFRAC test sheet you see that is what I did.As teaches tell
>> their students, "show your work", not just the final result.
>>
>
> I see your point, and I am probably to full blooded a programmer, used to
> specs like those from W3N, nice BN formulas and at the same time a test
> suite thats real big. It used to be a selling point to say that the html
> part of our software had passed the W3C test suites.
>

We use EBNF for the basic formula syntax, but the spec did not include
a formal test suite when it was published.

There were different views on this.  One school of thought was more
like the W3C's :  a test suite for every standard along with feedback
from implementers.  But we also have others coming from an ISO
perspective, with the view that a standard should define things once
and only once, and any redundancy is asking for trouble.   If the
definition says one thing and the example says another, then who is
right?

So we ended up not publishing the test suite.

> But I agree, as you write it, we need to be careful, or to make things
> simple (to get us started), assume our current calc is ok, and just to be
> sure compare with e.g. excel.
>

You really need to take it from all directions.  The test suite could
have errors.  Implementations could have errors.

Problem with "com.sun.star.configuration.ConfigurationAccess"

[Jörg Schmidt]

Hello,

In a AddonConfiguration.xcs and AddonConfiguration.xcu, a StarBasic extension, 
I have the key "Description2" defined (see below).

I try to access it with the following macro:

Sub test ()
Dim oRegKey
oRegKey Tools.Misc.GetRegistryKeyContent = 
("/ooo.ext.BasicAddonBuilder.Configuration/" & "ProductInfo")
msgbox oRegKey.Description2
End Sub

In some cases, it does, however, in other cases, the key is not found.

When identical defined key "Description" (see below) it works *always*.

What is the problem? Do I maybe "Description2" enter into other configuration 
files?



greetings,
Jörg



AddonConfiguration.xcs






http://openoffice.org/2001/registry"; 
xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"; 
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance";>








































AddonConfiguration.xcu






http://openoffice.org/2001/registry"; 
xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"; oor:name="Configuration" 
oor:package="ooo.ext.BasicAddonBuilder">




BasicAddonBuilder


A wizard for creating OpenOffice.org Extensions 
(Add-on's) from StarBasic libraries
A wizard for creating 
OpenOffice.org Extensions (Add-on's) from StarBasic libraries
Creazione guidata di Estensioni 
per OpenOffice.org (Add-on's) in StarBasic
Ein Assistent zum Exportieren von 
StarBasic Bibliotheken als UNO-Packages 
Un asistente para exportar 
bibliotecas StarBasic como paquetes UNO
Assistant de création 
d'extension OpenOffice.org (Add-ons) à partir de librairies 
StarBasic
En guide til at danne 
OpenOffice.org Udvidelser (Add-ons) fra StarBasic biblioteker


This version contains a patch, created by 
Jörg Schmidt (joe...@calc-info.de). For more information, see the module 
"patch_information".
This version contains a patch, 
created by Jörg Schmidt (joe...@calc-info.de). For more information, see 
the module "patch_information".
Questa versione contiene una 
patch, creato da Jörg Schmidt (joe...@calc-info.de). Per ulteriori 
informazioni, vedere il modulo "patch_information".
Diese Version beinhaltet einen 
Patch, erstellt von Jörg Schmidt (joe...@calc-info.de). Weitere 
Informationen finden Sie im Modul "patch_information".
Cette version contient un patch, 
créé par Jörg Schmidt (joe...@calc-info.de). Pour plus 
d'informations, consultez le module "patch_information".
Denne version indeholder en patch, 
skabt af Jörg Schmidt (joe...@calc-info.de). For mere information, se 
modulet "patch_information".


...


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Re: Another 4.0 review, in ComputerBild (German)

[Jörg Schmidt]

> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] 
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:03 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Another 4.0 review, in ComputerBild (German)
> 
> http://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cb-Ratgeber-Apache-OpenOffi
> ceGratis-kostenlose-Buerosoftware-Download-1269759.html

Unfortunately, the article contains errors.

The "Freies Office Deutschland e.V." is not a foundation, but a non-profit 
organization. Only the TDF is a foundation.



Gretings,
Jörg


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Re: Please confirm the following error in AOO 4.0

[Jörg Schmidt]

> From: Jörg Schmidt [mailto:joe...@j-m-schmidt.de] 
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 9:12 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Please confirm the following error in AOO 4.0
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Can anyone confirm the following error in AOO 4.0?
> 
> If you have installed an extension that contains a toolbar or 
> an entry in the Help menu, and in the extension-manager click 
> (for this extension) the "Disable" button and then "Enable", 
> then, after opening a new window, her toolbar and the entry 
> in the Help menu will not be visible.
> 
> Only when you install the extension again, the toolbar and 
> the entry in the Help menu is visible again.


The error described above is now:
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=123052


Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Please confirm the following error in AOO 4.0

[Guy Waterval]

Hi Jörg,

I can't confirm it on windows 7, all is OK for me :

with http://calc-info.de/files/BasicAddonBuilder-0.5.1.oxt

with Anaphraseus_2.04.124b.oxt
http://sourceforge.net/projects/anaphraseus/files/Daily%20Snapshot/ which
installs a toolbar AND a new menu.


A+
-- 
gw


2013/8/17 Jörg Schmidt 

> > From: Jörg Schmidt [mailto:joe...@j-m-schmidt.de]
> > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 9:12 AM
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: Please confirm the following error in AOO 4.0
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Can anyone confirm the following error in AOO 4.0?
> >
> > If you have installed an extension that contains a toolbar or
> > an entry in the Help menu, and in the extension-manager click
> > (for this extension) the "Disable" button and then "Enable",
> > then, after opening a new window, her toolbar and the entry
> > in the Help menu will not be visible.
> >
> > Only when you install the extension again, the toolbar and
> > the entry in the Help menu is visible again.
>
>
> The error described above is now:
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=123052
>
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Reporting a problem with the OpenOffice website

[Graeme Moyse]

As at 13:40 Australian CST, Sat. Aug. 17, 2013, the following error was 
received when attempting to open the OpenOffice Forum page 
: "SQL ERROR [ mysqli ]

Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket 
'/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (2) [2002]"

All the best,

Graeme Moyse


REMEMBER TO INCLUDE US ON YOUR UPDATE LIST – if & when you change your email 
address.

Reporting a problem with the OpenOffice website

[David Heath]

I am trying to learn about opening WordPerfect files in the latest OpenOffice. 
I try links grom Google searches and I keep getting messages like this:

http://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/ is just one of the links that do not work

General Error
SQL ERROR [ mysqli ]

Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket 
'/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (2) [2002]

An sql error occurred while fetching this page. Please contact an administrator 
if this problem persists.
>

I do not know all of the URLs that gave me the message, but wanted to let you 
know that you have a server problem.

Thanks for all of the work supporting OO,

Dave 

Re: Reporting a problem with the OpenOffice website

[Rory O'Farrell]

The OpenOffice Forum server will be offline until sometime on Sunday evening 
(UTC) for major OS and phpBB upgrades  

-- 
Rory O'Farrell 

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Re: New volunteer introduction

[sumit Murari]

thnks Kay, I'm building the environment .just got a thought; while
moving in the trunk, i saw all the files and tools.
Is there any "complete ZIP File" for the source, so that any it can be
directly downloaded ...
 I got it from sourcefourge.net and i found sourgeforge an easier way ..!!


On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 2:16 AM, sumit Murari 
> wrote:
>
> > thnks for reply :)
> >
> > I can do development in C,C++ or JAVA, and frankly i want to contribute
> > something. I just use  OSS,  for my work and haven't done any
> contribution
> > yet, so it doesn't feels nice ..
> >
> > I'm comfortable with development, but i don't know, where to start and
> how
> > to start .
> >
>
> OK, thanks for this information. If you've finished the general orientation
> modules on how the project works, I think you should take a look at the
> developer orientation:
>
> http://openoffice.apache.org/orientation/intro-development.html
>
> As a first step, you could download and build Apache OpenOffice.
>
> Also on the Developer orientation page above is a link to "easy hacks" to
> get you started on actual code changes.
>
> Our development information documentation is  in need of an organizational
> update, but I think you will find the api area contains a LOT of useful
> information:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/api/
>
> (use the left hand navigation items instead of the "search")
>
> This will give you a nice overview of the structure of the program modules
> and what area does what.
>
> Thanks again for wanting to join Apache OpenOffice. We want your
> participation to be rewarding, and we're here to help.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Kay Schenk 
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 4:45 AM, sumit Murari 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > hello all, My name is timus, i've been using OpenOffice, and many
> OSS,
> > > now
> > > > i want to contribute some to openOffice.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm from India, and i'm interested in contributing to OpenOffice.
> > > >  I've never contributed in any OSS so far, my contribution was
> limited
> > to
> > > > using software sending statistics and sending the crash report if i
> > > > encountered any.
> > > > Looking for anyone who can guide me ...
> > > >
> > > > Any help will be appreciated ..
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello timus and it's great that you want to get involved with
> OpenOffice.
> > > It would help if we had an idea of what areas you would like to help
> > with.
> > >
> > > Some of our major areas, aside from direct user support through the
> > Forums
> > > or "users" list, are discussed in the orientation modules:
> > >
> > > http://openoffice.apache.org/orientation/index.html
> > >
> > > So, if you can tell us a little more about what you'd like to do, we
> can
> > > assist you with your OpenOffice volunteer efforts better.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> >
> -
> > > MzK
> > >
> > > "When in doubt, cop an attitude."
> > > -- Cat laws
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Sumit*
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> -
> MzK
>
> "When in doubt, cop an attitude."
> -- Cat laws
>



-- 
*Sumit*

Re: Reporting a problem with the OpenOffice website

[sebb]

On 17 August 2013 06:35, Rory O'Farrell  wrote:
> The OpenOffice Forum server will be offline until sometime on Sunday evening 
> (UTC) for major OS and phpBB upgrades

Can't the Forum URLs be temporarily redirected to a page that explains this?

> --
> Rory O'Farrell 
>
> -
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